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Reviews, Rants & Things That Make You Scream The place for you to submit reviews of all those applications you use with Fedora. The Devs probably aren't listening, but some times you've just GOT to blow off steam or sing its praises.

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  #1  
Old 8th February 2017, 04:14 AM
jpenguin Offline
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Java needs to die

My local college stopped teaching C++ around the end of '08, and only teaches Java now. Now I recently work at the college as a TA and tutor for programing students. Since, I know C++, a lot of the basic syntax is the same; I recently did a few Java exercises and went to compile them with GCC...Why did I think that would be simple? I then tried to install netbeans... it hasn't been in the repo since Fedora 16? I've had to manually install obscure packages before... the version I installed doesn't like OpenJDK? I have to uninstall AND install a version with it's own dedicated JDK. ALL FOR A LANGUAGE WITH MEMORY LEAKS, SO I CAN USE TWICE THE RAM FOR HELLOWORLD
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  #2  
Old 8th February 2017, 04:40 AM
flyingdutchman Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

Well, C++ is just as bad and doesn't even have a garbage collector.
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  #3  
Old 8th February 2017, 05:51 AM
lsatenstein Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

I program in both C and C++. I use valgrind to check on memory leaks. There is also Electric Fence.

I manually balance allocatiion, reallocation and memory free actions. I learned that need before C++ was invented. I also do not like code bloat when the program is one that will see high (many many) invocations.

And by the way, I do check what some of my critical code is doing by compiling to assembly language. I did this for some cpu intensive data encryption stuff. Its surprising what bloat can occur just by mixing signed with unsigned, long with Integer with short.

Yes, I never took to Java, because it did not give me the control of object creation and management that I like. Java does not need to die, it just has to fade away.
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  #4  
Old 8th February 2017, 06:14 AM
ocratato Online
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Re: Java needs to die

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingdutchman View Post
Well, C++ is just as bad and doesn't even have a garbage collector.
Actually that is exactly the reason I prefer C++ to Java.

There is a design pattern called "Resource Acquisition Is Initialization" where resources, such as file locks, are acquired by the constructor and released by the destructor. Thus whenever the object goes out of scope its resources are automatically released. While a Java object might eventually get destroyed the timing is not predictable unless other actions are taken.

I find that when programmers start to rely on the garbage collector they often end up with constructs that are never cleaned up.
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  #5  
Old 11th February 2017, 03:30 AM
RupertPupkin Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

Java is a great language -- much better than C++ -- and Java 8 has some nice new features (e.g. lambdas). As with any language, it helps if you actually know what you're doing.
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  #6  
Old 11th February 2017, 04:02 AM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

I totally agree!! It does indeed help if you know what you are doing! So, that pretty much leaves me out

Seriously, though.. Part of knowing what you are doing is realizing there is no "one size fits all" programming language. Java (for example) might be better suited for some things, while terrible for others. I don't think Java would do vary well to write the kernel, or a video driver...

Developers out there that try to force all of their applications to be written in just one language (probably because that is the only one they know) are just looking for problems.

The garbage collector comments above reminds me of a JES2 bug I found awhile back. We were running JES2 spoolers on a 8 system ES9000 parallel sysplex. Well, if the spool file was opened as one type, and changed to a different type, when closed, it would release all but 1 byte of memory. After a few hours, the system ran short on storage. 1 byte may not seem like much, but when looking at thousands of spool files over less than an hour period, it eats the memory very quickly.

So... When coding, always do your own garbage collection. You never know when that 1 byte might bring your system to a screeching halt.
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  #7  
Old 11th February 2017, 12:01 PM
bobx001 Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

my 0.02$:

I have a LOOONG history with (against) Java, which I will now let out here, why the hell not.
1. I started programming back in 1978 when I was 14. With an HP 41 C programmable calculator
2. Instantly moved to Zilogs, Apples, then PCs, doing Basic
3. Started on the other languages, passed through Pascal, Fortran, C

4. Stuck with C , even built my own programming language for Voice/Fax processing systems back in 1988, was very successful with it. And even participated in the development/inclusion of Shared Memory into the SystemV kernel.

5. Unix wars. I stopped using windows with 3.1 back in 1992, and never looked back. I was running since 1989 all my stuff under AT&T Unix, and then Interactive Unix. Then in the mid '90s Sun adopted most of it to make Solaris on x86, and I just took that for a serious drive, installing literally hundreds of servers for a bunch of companies, using Solaris. Still sticking with C for all my stuff, always doing Real-Time stuff, using a lot of self-built shared memory data indexing/etc stuff.

6. Started investigating Linux back in 1999. Then in year 2001/2002, some people at Sun wanted to kill Solaris x86, and concentrate only on big servers for Banks with their Risc platform, but I sent a nice letter to Scott McNealy (which he responded), and somehow I was one of the ones who helped convince him that Solaris x86 had to stay, cuz A LOT of companies preferred that to their expensive Risc machines, specially cuz at that time that was the only SUPER-STABLE x86 based OS.

7. As CPUs increased in speed, Bill Joy at Sun, creator of "vi" , then created Java to replace all their "software installers", and to provide a "platform independent" way to display their software menus, etc. cuz X/Windows had become to complicated with their many layers of libraries. JAVA was NEVER intended to be used as a SERVER architecture. Only as a temporary GUI which you would fire up, and configure your stuff, and exit.
Due to Sun's serious influence at Stanford University (McNealy's alma mater), JAVA was soon found as a class in all curriculums across the nation. BIG MISTAKE #1.

8. Suddenly everywhere you wanted to work at, was "Do you know JAVA ?" Object oriented, Platform independent. ..... bla bla.

9. ---> platform independent MY ASTROLABE, everywhere you want to run it, needs thousands of small ".jar" files which are sometimes impossible to find, and sometimes mysteriously disappear from a running system LOL. Suddenly your little programs become a small sideshow compared to the hundreds of other little packages and versions of everything else that you "must" have, else nothing happens, or you get serious errors, which are impossible to even find, as "error logging" is completely foreign to JAVA and whoever built it.

10. You need an ever increasing ram size to hold even the simplest little program, which , thanks to BIG MISTAKE #1, all lazy programmers are now using new() instead of declaring a variable and running a for loop. So, your hello world program suddenly uses 1.8GB ram LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

11. Big Mistake #2 came when such programmers started using Java for everything, specially client-server architectures.
I remember I wanted to buy a Sony Vaio online in their Sonystyle shop:
I configured the complete system, and pressed on the BUY button , after 20 seconds, white page "Java Lang OUT OF MEMORY ERROR" LOOOOL, they lost 2000 Dollars right on the spot !!!!

So, yeah, IMHO, Java needs to die. Programmers need to understand that OOP is not for Client/Server architectures, specially not on the server side, as specially on the Web, where the Surfer has that "Back Button" on his browser, whatever was running on the server suddenly becomes a zombie using up ram, and is never able to exit and/or erase itself.
Plus, the added feature of OOP that the code you programmed will get executed whenever the CPU decides to scrub that piece of RAM, and *****NOT***** when you actually want it.

my rant. ahhh, feel better now, sorry for the shouting....
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  #8  
Old 11th February 2017, 01:28 PM
ocratato Online
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linuxfirefox
Re: Java needs to die

Once upon a time I was reading about the various risk factors, any one of which could derail a project. Things like changing programming language, changing the development process, changing the architecture, changing key personnel,and so on.

Not long after I was assigned to a project where they had changed all of them.
They were going from a system built from Oracle's embedded language to Java, (which meant from structured to object oriented) changing to a new architecture using CORBA, as well as changing the architect, hiring a firm of consultants to advise on the development process, etc, etc.

According to the risk factors the project had no chance of success.
However, it did eventually deliver a working system.
I can only put its success down to the ease of learning to build a system using Java.

That said, I do agree with bobx001 that managing a large Java web service has now become very complex, which is sort of ironic considering (according to bob) that it started out as an installer.
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Has anyone seriously considered that it might be turtles all the way down?
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The current model is that it's holographic nested virtualities of turtles, all the way down.
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  #9  
Old 11th February 2017, 05:15 PM
jpenguin Offline
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I see we're pretty decided; Java does have some nice features. As far as crossplatform goes; QT, GTK, SDL, wxWidgets, FLTK... I was the only one on my programming class that ended cmdline programs with
Code:
cin.ignore();
Cin.get();
instead of [IMG]#include <conio>
Getch();[/IMG] but it still paused the output

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  #10  
Old 17th February 2017, 11:55 PM
rclark Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

My experience with Java was in the 90s early 2000s when I was 'very' excited about using Java Applets. Here we had a programming language that made it easy to embed small apps into a browser. For example, Jumper settings for a field circuit board. Drop down a list of addresses for settings and viola, recompute your jumper positions. Worked very well. However, later IS people started blocking Java Applets for security reasons . So that went by the way side. Now we have a powerful JavaScript engine to fulfill the promise of code in the browser ... but back then, Applets were great (when used right) for small projects. Background, I started with VAX pascal (college) back in the 80s, and DOS Turbo Pascal, Turbo C and so on down through the years.... Today primarily C, C++, and Python 3 are my languages of choice for most projects Linux or Windows. Still support some Fortran, Pascal apps too. But Java isn't used here to build apps at all anymore. I liked the concept of write once, run everywhere, but ... Python now accomplishes that (for what I do) much more easily (Windoze and Linux) without all the overhead. And when Python can't do the job, C certainly can.

Last edited by rclark; 18th February 2017 at 12:37 AM.
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  #11  
Old 18th February 2017, 09:39 AM
bobx001 Offline
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linuxfedorafirefox
Re: Java needs to die

Quote:
Originally Posted by rclark View Post
I started with VAX pascal (college) back in the 80s,
The VAX (PDP11) was cool, I went through same, until I hacked in ! you know how ? simple, each user was given max 5 minutes of CPU, and you could check how much you had used.
So , when you used 4:59 , and you typed "exit" , it dumped you into a root prompt ! LOL

And I got kicked out of College for that, with FBI dogs and the works, cuz I wanted to help a friend of mine do some programming homework, so I needed to copy his files to my folder. I even left a message to the administrator's printer, to no avail. LOL Ahh, the good ol' days.
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  #12  
Old 10th March 2017, 11:32 PM
antikythera Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

Just wondering what the point of teaching Java still is. Anyone studying that particular course is going to end up with a defunct qualification before the ink is dry on the diploma. I know too many people who have had to spend a lot of time and money re-training as mature students after picking the wrong programming modules during college only to find they picked the wrong ones and nobody needs those skills any longer. I fear anyone studying Java is going down the same route right now.
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  #13  
Old 11th March 2017, 05:11 AM
ocratato Online
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Re: Java needs to die

Quote:
Originally Posted by antikythera View Post
Just wondering what the point of teaching Java still is. Anyone studying that particular course is going to end up with a defunct qualification before the ink is dry on the diploma. I know too many people who have had to spend a lot of time and money re-training as mature students after picking the wrong programming modules during college only to find they picked the wrong ones and nobody needs those skills any longer. I fear anyone studying Java is going down the same route right now.
In my experience Java is the preferred language for a lot of business stuff - its the new COBOL.

Java has some advantages as a teaching language - its works the same (well mostly) across platforms so students can use whatever machine they have. It's also a rather good example for teaching the object oriented paradigm.

A good computing course should aim to teach the concepts, most of which can be readily adapted to any similar language.
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The current model is that it's holographic nested virtualities of turtles, all the way down.
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  #14  
Old 11th March 2017, 05:37 AM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Java needs to die

Actually, I'll be willing to bet that COBOL is still more popular that java, even though they have tried to make people believe it's been dead since the late 70's early 80's. Sad thing is that there aren't many colleges that teach COBOL anymore.

I know I still write thousands of lines of production COBOL code per year, still... That is production code, as in write, test, test, test more, test even more, beta test, user test, then maybe it becomes production code.

And as of 2009, this is an interesting number

"The statistics on Cobol attest to its huge influence on the business world: There are over 220 billion lines of Cobol in existence, a figure which equates to about 80 per cent of the world’s actively used code. There over a million Cobol programmers in the world. There are 200 times as many Cobol transactions that take place each day than Google searches."
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