Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not - Page 2
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  1. #16
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    Re: Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not

    True, but I can't think of an example of any production server where you would want to allow untested code to be run, therefore limiting what the users can do by removing make/gcc makes sense in those environments
    Our 'production' servers, back when I maintained them, were all in house and 24/7. The Engineers/programmers could login and write/run applications, cross compile applications to ARM or PowerPC platforms say on VME systems, etc. . Also interfaced with the desktop Windows boxes via SAMBA for file serving. That was what our production file and research Linux servers were used for. Linux after all is a multi-user system, so we used it that way . In the products we deployed, they run only one application on the real-time side (either RT-Linux or dedicated RT kernel) so no compiler/tools were deployed with them. No source code to compile anyway! I suspect this is what you are calling 'production' systems (or in BT world, deployed web servers or database systems, cashier data entry, etc.)

    Leslie, believe it or not, I used a Fedora 5 system as in internal file Server at my old company. It ran for many years. It was still spinning when I left in 2014. Yes, no updates, but then, for our use as long as it served files and did what we needed, no need to 'upgrade'. Worked great at the time. Wouldn't do that now. I'd use CentOS or some such LTS disto. As you stated Fedora is really a development platform... Not for critical 24/7 server platforms. My current company only uses Windoze servers but I am not responsible for them... so I just roll with it. Deal with the Win update/reboot cycles and reboot when system sometimes flake out... People seem to think this is 'normal'.
    Last edited by rclark; 11th April 2019 at 12:16 AM.

  2. #17
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    Re: Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not

    Quote Originally Posted by HaydnH
    I think this is also partly due to Redhat being so prominent in production environments. A production server shouldn't have any development tools installed to avoid the use of software that hasn't been QA/UAT tested. Only dev servers should have the build tools installed and the resulting binaries should be promoted through testing to prod.
    I have seen a 5 layer system:
    Level 1 is where programmers create the program and do unit tests.
    Level 2 is where programmers can test the programs against realistic data
    Level 3 is where the test team puts the programs through full test.
    Level 4 is an acceptance test environment where the system administrators verify the software against something close to production.
    Level 5 is production.

    Levels 1 & 2 are administered by the programmers. Level 3 is administered by the testers.
    Levels 4 and 5 are administered by the system admins.

    Only level 1 has the build tools, though they often end up on level 2 as well.

    User error. Please replace user and try again

  3. #18
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    Re: Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not

    Quote Originally Posted by ocratato
    I have seen a 5 layer system:
    Yep, that's similar to most environments I've worked in. The current release process for us is: Dev -> QA -> UAT -> OAT (optional, done if there's a large amount of support process changes due to the nature of the release) -> DR -> Prod. It's essential that the release doesn't change after leaving dev so we're definitely deploying to DR/Prod exactly what's been tested in QA/UAT/OAT.

    Fedora wouldn't be my first choice for a large scale production environment. However, if I was in a position where I had a limited budget for a small business running a live service and RHEL wasn't an option I'd probably weigh it up against CentOS. The frequent update cycle isn't actually so much of an issue for me as I wouldn't be updating from the public repos anyway. I'd create snapshots of the public repos locally at a certain frequency, then update the testing environments in sequence from those local repos. That way all updates would be tested and if an update causes issues with our service it has plenty of time to be spotted before reaching DR or Prod.

  4. #19
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    Re: Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not

    As you know, Fedora is still, in many ways, a development platform for RHEL. Therefore, some of the choices won't make that much sense for a single user laptop. Although sometimes it seems that the developers these days put their single user laptop ideas into RHEL, so it works to everyone's detriment.
    Again, as far as Fedora being the only one, I think you're probably wrong, as with most Debian installations to do any compiling you want to install their build-essential or whatever it's called, which is not included by default, and even Arch, which touts itself as one for the experienced, and often seems to aim itself at developers doesn't include most build tools in its default installation.

    Regardless, this seems to be a tempest in a teacup as ALL you have to do is sudo dnf -y install make, and you're done. As it's a small package, even without broadband, it's not a big deal. (Or if without broadband, you can use a DVD)

  5. #20
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    Re: Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not

    Hi Guys
    My work experience was in banking. Guess which scheme was followed.
    the 1,2,3,4,5 scheme.
    Level 1 and 2 was for developers and for testers. The test files with conditions had to be provided to developers, and not rely on the developers creating their own test data. Many times the test data was the result of a "abend /dump" or some complaint
    Most times the work was for new application features. Level 2 testers also reviewed the jcl/scripts, new versus old. They also wrote the documentation.

    Level3 and level4 where the source and binary, jcl/scripts AND DOCUMENTATION were handed off to production testing.
    Level 4 role was to validate the documentation and test results using day old data with system clocks backdated. A fake live situation. This system was not online, but in a separate data centre. A file transfer facility went to a I/O server for receiving transfers from developement systems, or was used to send dumps to the developers.

    Sometimes level4 included stress testing. The bank where I worked had 6 production centres across the country (at lease 1 per timezone). Stress testing was a crucial part of the acceptance testing.
    Level 5 was done, typically Sunday 2am -- the time of week when the system load Transaction volume was the least.

    New work was always more stressful to deliver, as it was done to time/cost estimates.
    Leslie in Montreal

    Interesting web sites list
    http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showth...40#post1697840

  6. #21
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    Re: Rant Fedora is the only distribution that does not

    BTW, I installed F30 LXDE version (Fedora-LXDE-Live-x86_64-30-20190427.n.0.iso) in a VM last night and kicked its wheels a bit. Installation was very smooth. Went with the 'defaults'.

    gcc and make were present in this spin. Yea!

    I see Python 2 is still installed.

    That said (what makes me scream ) is again I had to add the most common used apps Libreoffice and Firefox. Then loaded repositories for RPM fusion and added VLC. To me Firefox, Thunderbird, and LibreOffice at least should always be included as desktop spin apps for an out of the box complete user experience of apps most commonly used. Of course I then had to add some of the other apps I may use in the VM like g++, gfortran.

    That said, it appears copy/paste doesn't work in the VM application to application. This was apparent when I tried to copy from web-browser the dnf line to install rpmfusion. Not just Firefox to Terminal, but Firefox to Geany. Shows option available to paste, just no text is pasted. Typed by hand and got it done....

    Overall though, F30 seems to play well with the VM environment otherwise. One of the bug-a-boos in previous versions, if I played a video in Firefox and skip around the screen would eventually 'lockup'. That seems to have gone away after a couple of hours of trying to get it to crash.

    Mouse seemed slow when you try to scroll a window with the middle button wheel.

    So not much to rant about, just some observations!

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