Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.
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  1. #1
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    Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    You know, just out of curiosity, I looked on the overall Wayland state, compositors support etc and I found this beautiful post about Nvidia and their Linux support.
    Ok, I understand that some people in the Linux community don't like Nvidia, I do. Sadly, for many users, the fact that their drivers are - maybe sadly, but are simply stable compared to the OSS rest is much more important that Nvidia's, let's say 'Linux unfriendliness'.
    I don't want to go into details that I and I guess no one else except Nvidia really know about regarding their real ability to open drivers w/o violating some other companies' IP, that's not the point here.
    It's about this kind of strange pride that some (mainly) devs seem to suffer from. Like mine opinion is this, yours suck. Nvidia sucks, because it's not doing what I want. K.
    But what really did made me think about it more is this part:

    When people complain to me about the lack of Nvidia support in Sway, I get really pissed off. It is not my f***ing problem to support Nvidia, it’s Nvidia’s f***ing problem to support me. Even Broadcom, f***ing Broadcom, supports the appropriate kernel APIs. And proprietary driver users have the gall to reward Nvidia for their behavior by giving them hundreds of dollars for their GPUs, then come to me and ask me to deal with their bull*** for free. Well, f**k you, too. Nvidia users are shi**y consumers and I don’t even want them in my userbase. Choose hardware that supports your software, not the other way around.

    Buy AMD. Nvidia– f**k you!
    Gnome 3 haters - you have a lot to learn here it seems!

    Ok, seriously, I'm glad I'm not a sway user, I really am. That would mean I'm 'in his userbase' and I won't let that happen. Even though under different circumstances, I would definitely try it at least. Well, that's the way it is.

    P.S. Forum will not allow to insert the proper link in this case, you'll have to make simple edit to the address. Not my fault.
    Last edited by Maryyy; 11th July 2018 at 01:26 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    I'm the first person to state "vote with your wallet" regarding many things, but that attitude is quite unrealistic, and dare I say "a bit immature"...but then it very much fits the model I've come to expect from any programmer under 45 years old.

  3. #3
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    the link got doctored by the automatic swearing filter the forum carries. I won't undo it for obvious reasons but anyone can put 2+2 together. He's used Linus Torvald's most famous quote. I understand the frustration but the attitude is far from desirable. However from a counter argument point, why should NVIDIA bother pandering to a minority? They are quite entitled to just say "F&*K YOU TOO!" if developers carry on behaving publicly in this manner and stop supporting GNU/Linux altogether.

    Just because he decided developing some crap compositor for i3 the minority of PC users will end up using is a good idea, they have to sink R&D time and money into supporting it? Never gonna happen is it.

    the age of developers publishing such idiotic rants is not limited to the under 45 age group either unfortunately.

  4. #4
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    Exactly. Nvidia has it's own agenda, like everyone else. Or maybe opening the drivers is really not so simple for them, legal wise. Or they don't want to and that's fine.
    Sometimes the hunt for open source just gets too tense. Of course I can buy AMD or just use Intel, but in both cases, there are problems.
    VAAPI is basically useless and can just lock up the whole OS, it happened to me before. And AMD still has those freezes and screen corruptions from time to time, depending. I don't want to sound like Nvidia's fan, as I'm not. I use what really works, that's the whole point of computer, before anything else. Whether it's software and hardware is open source or not.
    Their drivers are closed, but quite stable and cuda acceleration is great. BTW it's the only reasonable video acceleration method on linux today as well.
    Seeing mpv decoding 3 60fps 4K videos with also very high bit rate on my 960 is quite cool, because my almighty i3 can't play smoothly just one of them.. And the video engine gets like 60% load so it can do much more then that.
    With his reasoning, people who play games on Steam or any other commercial game are 'silly' as well. Many of those games properly work with Nvidia drivers only, although not all of them of course. Games are a nice example of software where people often will prefer closed source. Or may not even know what open source means. And the reason is they use what works, in this case what they enjoy playing. Why care if it's closed or not if it works. Now of course, when there are two pieces of software, with same functionality, I will immediately go with the OSS one, as it will have more chances of bug fixing, future maintenance for compatibility etc., but that's not always possible. Does it mean I will not use the closed one if there is no OSS alternative? Not at all, because if it works, it works!

    ARM just recently tried make RISC-V look as not a good option, but the original link is down, fortunately, we can go back to it:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20180710...cv-basics.com/
    I guess the original is down, because as with everything, if you put energy to it, you make it stronger. So RISC-V just got more attention because of that, free advertisement from ARM.
    They are feared, so they did it, it's simple.

    There are many such things these days and it's sadly necessary. It will pass, just hang on.

  5. #5
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    When I bought my custom made desktop, the builder (store) asked which of the two vendors I would like for my system. Not knowing much about either, I went for ati (now amd).
    Since that date, I have never ever needed to look for drivers, I have never ever had issues with my gpu. Radian is the way I want to go. I don't want to have to search and cherry pick some Nvidia driver. I may get a gpu that is 95% as fast as Nvidia's, but my eyes and my keystrokes are more than adequate for my needs.
    I doubt that there is a gamer that can tell the difference of a card rated 60frames/sec and another at 50frames/sec, unless he is using testing software.
    Last edited by lsatenstein; 13th July 2018 at 07:47 PM.
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    On a slightly different reading of the quoted developer's rant ...

    In the very early 1990's, I knew a fellow who had taken on support of Network Operating System (NOS) targeted at the amateur radio community. It was done in linux. He toiled at this until the early 2010's when he finally gave it up. He like many others, go into something so deeply that it overwhelms them, stealing all the oxygen in the room and they do not see any assistance being offered. They feel alone and frustrated because they are the only one who gives a hoot. They finally drop it like a hot potato.

    OTOH, it is neither appropriate nor acceptable to go a tirade. Most people simply walk away, shaking their heads and muttering comments about jerks. This forum is friendly
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    Quote Originally Posted by lsatenstein
    I doubt that there is a gamer that can tell the difference of a card rated 60frames/sec and another at 50frames/sec, unless he is using testing software.
    Triple A Game titles with a card rated for only 60fps would be a nightmare. These days 144fps is the desirable figure for use with low latency displays that can handle the increased frame rates with a matching refresh rate. There's no point using a 60Hz monitor and expecting to notice a difference though.

    And yes, the majority of competitive gamers will notice a drop in fps even that small because they have heightened sensibility to lag between the PC and internet, or a drop in frame rate due to a maxed out system unable to cope with heavy textures and lighting effects that inevitably causes slower player reaction times. If driving a race simulator, you are slower round a lap and prone to crash more, if playing a first person shooter in a battle arena you struggle to target fast moving enemies and get killed more.

    For linux non-gamers, I agree AMD is easier to live. For gaming even with Linux, NVIDIA with proprietary drivers is still the better option if you can get them working and keep them working though (via Mint or a n other ubuntu based LTS distribution is the easiest option) as the majority of games are optimised for NVIDIA hardware.

  8. #8
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    Now, refresh rate of the monitor being only 60hz is basically irrelevant as far as response in, let's say 'pro gaming' situations is concerned. G-sync and freesync is mostly about sync in case of vsync being enabled, so that the tearing is not visible. 144hz or even those 165hz are about that really.
    What real 'pro gamer' will be after are two different things.
    One is low lag of the monitor. This has nothing to do with refresh rate, but of course, those high refresh rate monitors are often quite good in this regard, since at least G-sync ones are quite expensive. But frankly, even office-like Eizo ev2436w is great in this regard and if you just have vsync disabled in drivers, all is well. Sure, with tearing, but that's visual issue, not issue of slow response.
    And the second and actually much more important factor is of course keyboard lag. Basically, if one considers himslef 'pro gamer', he must use 1ms lag keyboard, like MX board 6.0 Sure, human brain itself has lag, but adding keyboard lag to it is what causes trouble. It's as simple as that.

    I can tell you one thing. From 2006 to 2008, I was quite a regular in Flatout 2 online races. Almost every day, with the best out there. If anyone was a bit more engaged with the game back then for a prolonged period of time, he will remember people like OMFG (aka Stoned), topic, HiOctane and others. That was before the era of (mainly) Russian cheaters who even used nitro in no-nitro races. As we have always played with no nitro and with Bullet GT.
    If I had MX board before, it would be much better. There were many, many situations where that tiny lag costed me a lot. But since everyone was more or less on the same boat back then, it was not really a handicap.

    There is basically nothing like honestly fair people who try their best and respect others for doing the same. I remember that one race with OMFG. Trashy track, 2x damage on the car and 10 laps. I almost got a heart attack, since we both didn't anticipate it's possible we will arrive to the finish line. We did, and almost in the same time. Both won, it was great.

    Aaah, sorry, I let myself to be carried away a bit. Anyway, don't jump on the high refresh rate wagon, it's not like that. Plus, most of those monitors are crappy TN panels that just kill my nerves and eyes...

  9. #9
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    Re: Some of those emotions of the Linux software devs.

    Quote Originally Posted by antikythera
    the link got doctored by the automatic swearing filter the forum carries. I won't undo it for obvious reasons but anyone can put 2+2 together. He's used Linus Torvald's most famous quote. I understand the frustration but the attitude is far from desirable. However from a counter argument point, why should NVIDIA bother pandering to a minority? They are quite entitled to just say "F&*K YOU TOO!" if developers carry on behaving publicly in this manner and stop supporting GNU/Linux altogether.

    Just because he decided developing some crap compositor for i3 the minority of PC users will end up using is a good idea, they have to sink R&D time and money into supporting it? Never gonna happen is it.

    the age of developers publishing such idiotic rants is not limited to the under 45 age group either unfortunately.
    For those who want to read many of Linus's quotes https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/linus_torvalds
    Leslie in Montreal

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