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  1. #16
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    there is no real consensus on this. Some folks like WD and others like Seagate. As others have pointed out though, the quality control on all consumer grade drives is pretty bad. My own experience is that 1 in 4 crap out within 2 months of heavy use, regardless of who makes them...and since by the time they fail, they are in use, replacing them can become non-trivial. That's why my model these days is religiously: SSD as system disk (extremely low failure rates but finite write cycles), and software raid-5 with at least four hard disks for normal storage and volatile systems stuff like /var and swap. Using dual controllers I can get read access speeds of about 3times what a single drive will yield. Of course there is a write penalty but I don't care.

  2. #17
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Hi Bob,
    Yes, to the extraction of data from that drive and transfer of contents to another.

    The only thing left on the inverted drive is a test version of Fedora 28 KDE. But interestingly, since it is installed and refomatted upside down, there has been zero head movement noise, smartctl shows no issues, no bad physical sectors or any out-of-range temperature or seek issues. I am beginning to think that I should invert all the spinner drives in my system to PC board face up. I will internet search to see if there is a difference in drive longevity or performace for inverted devices.

    My 1 terrabyte drives only have RW heads on the top surface of the disk. Installed up-side-down could help protect the surface of the disk if there was an earthquake.

    I ran smartctl -t long /dev/sdb # and after 3 hours, it came back with a clean bill of health. I have the replacement drive all setup. I am just waiting to see how long it will take for the inverted drive to die. It when in inverted on 6 July, following that idea to test it in different positions.
    By the way, it may very well be that there was a piece of dust or debree that caused the initial failure. I am betting/expecting to have more than one year of fault free service with that inverted WD. So, 4 days of use with no clickity clacks
    Last edited by lsatenstein; 13th July 2018 at 07:36 PM.
    Leslie in Montreal

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  3. #18
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Quote Originally Posted by lsatenstein
    Hi Bob,
    if there is a difference in drive longevity or performace for inverted devices.

    it may very well be that there was a piece of dust or debree that caused the initial failure.
    All my hard drives are mounted vertically. Here is a pic that displays the proper mounting position for a server with lots of hard drives:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Frankie, like I said before, the WD drives give no warning , they just break suddenly, and you can erase your smile for a few weeks as you try and recover your work.

    Back in the good ol' days of Mainframes, I was helping to manage an IBM 3090 at UCSB, and we had a few of what is called "DASD"ees (Direct Access Storage Device), these were 3 foot diameter disks of 6 or 8 platters running at 6000RPM inside a glass cabinet (with ARGON gas inside), where you could see the foot-long heads moving like crazy over the things. Now, all of these were mounted ON THEIR SIDE, which means, the axle is parallel to the ground, and the disks spin perpendicular to the ground. The logic behind that was that the bearings wear evenly.
    On disks which are spinning horizontally however, they tend to start "wobbling", whereas the top bearing wears our faster than the bottom one, due to coreolis, or just plain gyroscopic effects coupled with vibrations. Then the disks "go bad".

    However, on a more general note, beware of any company which in their name contain the words "federal", "national", "western", "american"... etc. they tend to be the exact opposite of what their name claims (the "federal" reserve being the most shameless perp). Believe you me, I'm an old fox, and I know what I am talking about. EDIT: I remember back in 1995, I went to ACDC ("American" Computers and Digital Components), in Pomona, east L.A., to buy 32GB of RAM, for $32,000, with a cheque LOL. When we got there, the place looked like Fort Knox, even heavier, all chinese dudes with UZIs every 20 feet all around the perimeter of this white building with no windows. Inside, a Chinese top-10 model beauty in ultraminiskirt and high-heels serving us drinks while we waited for the memory sticks. Their parking lot: Mercedes, Ferrari, Lambo, etc......
    Last edited by bobx001; 14th July 2018 at 08:36 AM.
    "monsters John ... monsters from the ID..."
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  4. #19
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    the crux of the matter is nobody should be reliant on an HDD regardless of brand or age not to fail and getting upset and stuck with 'a few weeks' of work recovering data when loss occurs. Instead regular backups should be taken to minimise any potential loss of data.

  5. #20
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Quote Originally Posted by antikythera
    the crux of the matter is nobody should be reliant on an HDD regardless of brand or age not to fail and getting upset and stuck with 'a few weeks' of work recovering data when loss occurs. Instead regular backups should be taken to minimise any potential loss of data.
    AMEN broda
    "monsters John ... monsters from the ID..."
    "ma vule teva maar gul nol naya"

  6. #21
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    I have since discovered that the drive problem was due to a corrupted install program that corrupted the very first gpt block on the disk.
    That corruption would throw the driver into a seak/reread loop. My simple solution-- DD to write nulls for a few sectors
    Then format drive as MS-DOS immediately followed by
    Format to gpt.
    Since then, no midnight oil. All is copacetic. Now I have a spare 1 terabyte drive in bubble blister package.

    By the way, my backups are triple done to three different external drives.

    My current passion is participating with the Fedora Docs teams as editor.
    I lost time with the command line tools provided to solve corrupted drives.
    Leslie in Montreal

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  7. #22
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Quote Originally Posted by lsatenstein
    I have since discovered that the drive problem was due to a corrupted install program that corrupted the very first gpt block on the disk.
    That corruption would throw the driver into a seak/reread loop. My simple solution-- DD to write nulls for a few sectors
    Then format drive as MS-DOS immediately followed by
    Format to gpt.
    Since then, no midnight oil. All is copacetic. Now I have a spare 1 terabyte drive in bubble blister package.

    By the way, my backups are triple done to three different external drives.

    My current passion is participating with the Fedora Docs teams as editor.
    I lost time with the command line tools provided to solve corrupted drives.
    very interesting. But I still would not trust that drive.
    "monsters John ... monsters from the ID..."
    "ma vule teva maar gul nol naya"

  8. #23
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    I was a Seagate customer but so many of them died developing problems that I switched to Western Digital, so far they seem more reliable than Seagate.

  9. #24
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    The replacement drive in my inventory is a Seagate. I will see where I can donate it. either to the local library or to some local institution needing it
    Leslie in Montreal

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    http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showth...40#post1697840

  10. #25
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Bizzare experience.

    I was trying to install Manjaro as a companion to Fedora. I would have
    1 SSD
    /dev/sda Fedora Gnome

    4 Terrabyte hard disks.
    /dev/sdb Tumbleweed Gnome
    /dev/sdc Tumbleweed KDE
    /dev/sdd play around disk for Manjaro
    /dev/sde Fedora KDE.

    I write code and because of vendor differences, I get trivially different compiled results. I want my code to run on any Linux system.

    I like to compare the progress between the Gnome versions and the KDE versions. Also I use multiple drives as I like to physically isolate each linux system from the other.

    So far, my experience has Fedora and Tumbeweed systems marching step in step with each other, perhaps a day or two apart.

    When I tried to install Manjaro to the "#4, the play around drive", the install failed. I got some hard disk error messages, in fact many.
    So, I pulled out the 4th drive and then my 5th drive went into convulsions. -- sick.

    I powered off, #4(/dev/sdd) which was dated 18Jan 2018 (fairly new), and the #5(/dev/sde) which was dated a year earlier.

    Two drives to fail at once is not realistic and of near zero probability. Ergo, I thought that with the heat/humidity we are exeriencing, that perhaps some connections oxidized, leading to poor electrical connections.

    Successful recovery
    ===============
    I did the following to successfully restore the system:
    unplug the power and sata connectors from each drive.
    Flip each drive upside down (drive cover facing the floor, printed circuit board face up).
    Put the drives back into the computer case in their respective slot. Reconnect the cables. When I turned on the machine, everything is OK

    Once again I am taking the superstitious unproven solution as factual, that WD drives work better if the drive is installed with the drive cover facing the floor. Or could it be that unplugging/replugging the sata connections did the trick?
    Yes, system is up and running and the checkdisks for each partition are clean.
    Leslie in Montreal

    Interesting web sites list
    http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showth...40#post1697840

  11. #26
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Quote Originally Posted by lsatenstein
    Bizzare experience.

    I was trying to install Manjaro as a companion to Fedora. I would have
    1 SSD
    /dev/sda Fedora Gnome

    4 Terrabyte hard disks.
    /dev/sdb Tumbleweed Gnome
    /dev/sdc Tumbleweed KDE
    /dev/sdd play around disk for Manjaro
    /dev/sde Fedora KDE.

    I write code and because of vendor differences, I get trivially different compiled results. I want my code to run on any Linux system.

    I like to compare the progress between the Gnome versions and the KDE versions. Also I use multiple drives as I like to physically isolate each linux system from the other.

    So far, my experience has Fedora and Tumbeweed systems marching step in step with each other, perhaps a day or two apart.

    When I tried to install Manjaro to the "#4, the play around drive", the install failed. I got some hard disk error messages, in fact many.
    So, I pulled out the 4th drive and then my 5th drive went into convulsions. -- sick.

    I powered off, #4(/dev/sdd) which was dated 18Jan 2018 (fairly new), and the #5(/dev/sde) which was dated a year earlier.

    Two drives to fail at once is not realistic and of near zero probability. Ergo, I thought that with the heat/humidity we are exeriencing, that perhaps some connections oxidized, leading to poor electrical connections.

    Successful recovery
    ===============
    I did the following to successfully restore the system:
    unplug the power and sata connectors from each drive.
    Flip each drive upside down (drive cover facing the floor, printed circuit board face up).
    Put the drives back into the computer case in their respective slot. Reconnect the cables. When I turned on the machine, everything is OK

    Once again I am taking the superstitious unproven solution as factual, that WD drives work better if the drive is installed with the drive cover facing the floor. Or could it be that unplugging/replugging the sata connections did the trick?
    Yes, system is up and running and the checkdisks for each partition are clean.
    It's unclear if you are talking about SSD or HDD.

    That's a really strange experience. Most of the internal mechanism of a WD HDD should be no different than any other company's latest HDD. I think what you experienced is most likely a result of a loose SATA data cable or SATA power cable, when you unplugged and re-plugged it, you would have reinserted it securely. Any HDD, including WD's would have metal needle like thing hovering just above the metal disks to encode data, if these metal needle like thing touches the metal disks, it might damage those metal disks or cause bad sectors, I think HDDs are made assuming they'll be installed right side up, with the PCB of the HDD facing down, so you should probably install it right way if you don't want any damage to the disks or data in you HDD.

    If it's an SSD, it doesn't matter what way you put it, because they don't have macro mechanical parts as in HDD.

  12. #27
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Quote Originally Posted by noviceFedora
    It's unclear if you are talking about SSD or HDD.

    That's a really strange experience. Most of the internal mechanism of a WD HDD should be no different than any other company's latest HDD. I think what you experienced is most likely a result of a loose SATA data cable or SATA power cable, when you unplugged and re-plugged it, you would have reinserted it securely. Any HDD, including WD's would have metal needle like thing hovering just above the metal disks to encode data, if these metal needle like thing touches the metal disks, it might damage those metal disks or cause bad sectors, I think HDDs are made assuming they'll be installed right side up, with the PCB of the HDD facing down, so you should probably install it right way if you don't want any damage to the disks or data in you HDD.

    If it's an SSD, it doesn't matter what way you put it, because they don't have macro mechanical parts as in HDD.
    1 SSD
    /dev/sda Fedora Gnome

    4 Terrabyte hard disks.
    /dev/sdb Tumbleweed Gnome
    /dev/sdc Tumbleweed KDE
    /dev/sdd play around disk for Manjaro
    /dev/sde Fedora KDE.


    I usually boot from the SSD, but when I do some code testing, I may boot from one of the other linux dists
    Leslie in Montreal

    Interesting web sites list
    http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showth...40#post1697840

  13. #28
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    Quote Originally Posted by lsatenstein
    1 SSD
    /dev/sda Fedora Gnome

    4 Terrabyte hard disks.
    /dev/sdb Tumbleweed Gnome
    /dev/sdc Tumbleweed KDE
    /dev/sdd play around disk for Manjaro
    /dev/sde Fedora KDE.


    I usually boot from the SSD, but when I do some code testing, I may boot from one of the other linux dists
    Okay, thanks for clarification.

    Instead of booting into different distros, you can consider running the other distros in VirtualBox or VMPlayer. For me virtualizing a Linux distro in a Linux host, makes it kind of sluggish but Windows guests run normally.

    It's your wish entirely.

  14. #29
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    My system dates from 2009. That means, the vendor had it ready in 2008. Its a 10year old design. My cpu ram runs at 800Mhz. VMPlayer was too painfully slow with that slow ram, and that is why I went with separate drives. And by the way, Windows 8-10 versions gave me these drives and other stuff. How??

    When I walked my dog in the morning, I would come across a desktop that a neighbor would discard. His garbage became my source of parts. I also visited the city's "electronics parts" dump and also came away with old systems.
    A few of the old systems had working Sata drives and ram and DVD players and good power supplies and ....
    So, my configuration is as posted.
    Leslie in Montreal

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  15. #30
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    Re: Most reliable 1 terrabyte Hard Drive

    I've been using desktop and tower PCs since the 1980s and my policy has always been use them 'till they quit (something on the motherboard or power supply). At that time I was buying them new or custom built them myself. Back then I always used Seagate drives in both cases. I don't recall ever having a hard drive fail during that time. This was driven by the fact that we used Seagate drives where I worked and had excellent experience with them. Back then my PCs were always replaced because I needed to run some new software that the old PC just couldn't handle. They were never in use more the 4 or 5 years; so they were in "working" condition when they were donated.

    In about 2000 I started buying reconditioned PCs from IBM that had come in off lease contracts. This was also driven from experience at work where we were integrating IBM PCs into products and having very good experience with them. I was particularly impressed and pleased with their BIOS. I've continued that since Lenovo took over IBM's PC business. That means that the PCs I have had since were/are, with one exception, at least 5 years old when I get them. Most of them have had Western Digital drives. Though when I've needed to buy drives for backups or for spare I always by Seagate. I have a few 1TB Seagate drives in service now and as spares. The capabilities of these PCs (CPU, RAM, Video, Drive speed and capacity) are still adequate to serve the needs here and I run them 'til they quit. One failed with a motherboard problem after about 5 years additional use, another one failed after about 7 years additional use with a CPU problem, and another failed after about 8 years of additional used with a power supply problem.

    When I decommission a PC I remove the hard drive and if it has a useful capacity, I put it in an external USB case and continue using it for backups etc. I have had two of these fail; one seagate and one Western Digital. I would estimate them to be about 12 or so years old when they failed.

    The PCs here and that I maintain in other locations (currently 6 total) have at least two additional hard drives connected and running either internally or external USB connections. Backups get run several times a day. So the drives log lots of power on and active time. I never use power saving features. I understand laptops don't have that luxury. The reason I do that is that as an electrical engineer who has also served time as a reliability engineer; I can tell you the worst thing you can do to any electronic device is turn it on and off. This is especially true for electro-mechanical devices such as disk drives.

    With this experience I have never seen drive reliability as a problem. Though I must say I have never had a laptop in the mix. I've always suspected that I would disappointed in their reliability and delicacy.

    I Recommend doing lots of backup in multiple places. I do folder and file level backups with grsync and nothing is compressed. When I have a PC die. I pull out a spare do a bare metal clean install, reload the applications restore the settings, restore the home directories in about 3 hours. One cheviot is that these PCs are not used for entertainment (no games, video files, or audio files).
    Last edited by TablePC; 31st August 2018 at 06:19 PM.
    Have a Great Day!

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