Systemd hell
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  1. #1
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    Systemd hell

    How it's possible in 2012 that Fedora team accept to change radically a piece of system so important like sysvinit to systemd (which boots all daemons at start for the newbises who don't know) thus without to advise users, at least by email ?

    I would be glad to say: "nice, systemd is fully compatible with LSB and OCF scripts", but with Fedora 15 and + IT IS NOT !!!!

    SO NOW I 'M FACING TO RESOLVE HOW TO REBOOT 5 NODES AT DISTANCE BECAUSE SYSTEMD REPLACED SYSVINIT WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITHOUT TO BE FULLY COMPATIBLE.

    IT'S A PURE MESS AND LOSE TIME FOR SYS ADMIN WHO ARE TRYING TO WORK SINCE YEARS TO MAKE DOZEN OF FEDORA SERVERS STABLE.

    REGARDS

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    Re: Systemd hell

    Moved to Reviews, Rants & Things That Make You Scream

    And, once again, this is an independent Forum, not connected directly with FedoraProject or any of the Devs who actually make the distro. And, once again (and again), the Devs don't frequent this Forum and want you to put your complaints/suggestions to them through Bugzilla or at least join their Communicate links.

    We are the users, helping users, not the guys who messed you up. In short, your words are not being heard by those who need to know. However, in the hopes that there are local geniuses who can suggest workarounds to the situation, I'll leave the thread open.

    Oh look, here's the Release Notes for F15: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/15/html-single/Release_Notes/#sect-Release_Notes-Changes_for_SysAdmin Guess they were worth a read.

    3.2.1. systemd




    systemd is a system and service manager, replacement for SysVinit and Upstart. After a six months shift, during which it has been more granularly tested, Fedora 15 brings in, by default, a new system daemon whose code is designed from scratch, with the objective to take the maximum advantage offered by modern Linux kernels.
    With systemd, Fedora 15 boots-up faster, particularly on SSD; native systemd service configuration files (or units) are much easier to understand and configure compared to sysvinit scripts, as systemd uses .service files instead of bash script; all daemons are sorted into their own Linux cgroups, which you may explore beneath /cgroup/systemd in the file system hierarchy; administrative features of the init system are considerably extended.
    Linux & Beer - That TOTALLY Computes!
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    Re: Systemd hell

    My guess is that the critical information you needed is in the documentation and/or release notes, but they were never read. Clearly someone made a poor decision in choosing Fedora as a critical server platform.
    Glenn
    The Bassinator

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    Re: Systemd hell

    The fact is Fedora took all Fedora users as otages 2 years ago splitting
    the distrib in spins so Fedora 10 users (as me) who choosed Fedora because no spins before were constraint to change their spin, but when you work in a research lab where every piece of linux is configured to make it work with our stuff so you can imagine that for us it's a big mess....

    ---------- Post added at 01:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

    my suggestion would be for next fedora 17 installattion or upgrade to ADVISE users if they want to choose systemd or sysvinit as boot daemon, it's so simple to respect users by a free choice

    ---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

    in a lab with restricted staff (I'm alone), I have to read tons of articles for my job, so you can imagine that sometimes we don't have the mind to read the super long release notes of Fedora

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    Re: Systemd hell

    See that FedoraProject link up there? That's where you need to address it.
    Linux & Beer - That TOTALLY Computes!
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    Re: Systemd hell

    I'm going to shout at fedora offical websites...
    I just wanted to make people know that there are long time fedora users who are not agree of what fedora does

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by facejoke
    I'm going to shout at fedora offical websites...
    3.2.1. systemd




    systemd is a system and service manager, replacement for SysVinit and Upstart. After a six months shift, during which it has been more granularly tested, Fedora 15 brings in, by default, a new system daemon whose code is designed from scratch, with the objective to take the maximum advantage offered by modern Linux kernels.
    With systemd, Fedora 15 boots-up faster, particularly on SSD; native systemd service configuration files (or units) are much easier to understand and configure compared to sysvinit scripts, as systemd uses .service files instead of bash script; all daemons are sorted into their own Linux cgroups, which you may explore beneath /cgroup/systemd in the file system hierarchy; administrative features of the init system are considerably extended.

    I read it befofr eto upgrade, but it doens't say "WARNING!!! SOME SCRIPTS MAY NOT FULLY WORKING WITH SYSTEMD"
    so when you see udev daemon, apache and other so important daemon that not boot it can be called as SERIOUS PROBLEM

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    Re: Systemd hell

    Here's a quick way of getting your point across: #fedora-server[?] - Fedora Server discussion

    Be warned, not all chat rooms are full of friendly, happy, receptive folk!

    That said, good luck on your efforts. Personally, I'd be considering CentOS, Scientific or paying for Red Hat for servers. Thankfully, I don't have to be concerned with it.
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    Re: Systemd hell

    You aren't alone.

    And there is NO CHOICE with systemd. The rest of the services have been configured such that they will not function without systemd, so "choosing" a sysVinit boot will fail.

    You will have to fall back to using F14 or Scientific Linux or CentOS
    for things to work right.

    And it is possible that they will fail in the next major release unless RH refuses to use systemd.

    And the sysVinit implemented by systemd is NOT compatable.

    If you MUST use fedora, your best bet is to remove all the sysVinit (rc.d, but not init.d) and put the entries you need into rc.local. Then try to ensure that rc.local really really does execute last. Sometimes it is enough to enable and the network.target... But watch out for NetworkManager, you also sometimes have to enable and start the "NetworkManager-wait-online.service" before that works out... Even then, things still fail.
    Last edited by jpollard; 4th March 2012 at 02:33 PM.

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    Re: Systemd hell

    The choice thing is difficult in this case I guess because systemd is not really compatible with sysv in the way that it doesn't matter which one you pick (as it seems).

    At first I disliked systemd, but I got used to it and I even ported some of my own sysv scripts to systemd scripts. It shouldn't be too much trouble to switch..

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    Re: Systemd hell

    I don't agree

    here is the trick I found deeply far away from a forum, I tried it and works better for me for now

    ***********************************************
    > Subject: upstart with fedora 15
    >
    > I've seen that upstart is still in the fedora 15 repository.
    >
    > How can I install upstart instead of systemd?

    1. install upstart (yum).
    2. create /var/run/dbus directory so messagebus will start
    3. remove /etc/mtab link
    4. touch /etc/mtab
    5. touch /etc/init.conf (not necessary for the last upstart package from
    updates)
    6. add
    id:5:initdefault:
    to /etc/inittab
    7. add init=/sbin/upstart to grub.conf (kernel /vmlinuz-....)
    8. reboot
    ***********************************************


    I saw also suselinux to go back to upstart for compatibilities problem.
    I think some developers need to calm their enthusiasm about a new feature, at this point I lost already 3 days to repair my cluster, and it's not finished... the thing I'm sure is I won't trust fedora anymore

    ---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

    Force users to change their habit and use a new software is called "despotism" and in this case guys play the same game of $M$. that's not really fair

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    Re: Systemd hell

    Force users to change their habit and use a new software is called "despotism" and in this case guys play the same game of $M$. that's not really fair
    If you can maintain SysVinit next to Systemd and if you're willing to do so, I'm sure you can get SysVinit back and make it a choice in the installer..

    Systemd has some advantages over sysvinit with recent kernels, so I think the majority of Fedora users would choose systemd over sysvinit.

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    Re: Systemd hell

    I agree, rose, but sometimes you need TIME before to change an important piece of your puzzle and thus for various reasons. the thing is unfortunatly I had to upgrade because some sof updates needed a more recent gilbc. ro you understand my position and shout now ?

    ---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------

    systemd MUST BE FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH LSB scripts.. at least

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    Re: Systemd hell

    Quote Originally Posted by facejoke
    I agree, rose, but sometimes you need TIME before to change an important piece of your puzzle and thus for various reasons. the thing is unfortunatly I had to upgrade because some sof updates needed a more recent gilbc. ro you understand my position and shout now ?

    ---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------

    systemd MUST BE FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH LSB scripts.. at least
    I do now. I didn't consider time an issue, but obviously it is. I do agree that it came "out of nowhere", and not all startup scripts are compatible. Therefore it is doomed to raise bugs and failures.

    However, Fedora is a distro to try out the latest things. If Fedora didn't implement systemd so suddenly, it wouldn't have been where it is today (in terms of stability and compatibility).

    All things considered, I think there are distros that would suite you better (CentOS or ScientificLinux for example).

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    Re: Systemd hell

    If everyone has an easy quick sysvinit script to systemd converter, I would be very happy to know it, since I really don't have TIME to work on my system that was working like a charm before (fedora 10)
    and let me start my conferences wihtout trouble and without to spend all my money to upgrade fedora....

    ---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

    also how to boot a remote fedora that didn't boot after the upgrade ?
    any kernel command to repair it at distance ?

    thanks

    ---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

    > All things considered, I think there are distros that would suite you better (CentOS or ScientificLinux for example).

    it's not really easy when you work on one distrib since 12 years and change it when you know that everything is working well with old version. and when you develop an entire web platform where path are very important in some scripts so you can imagine it's very frustrating and waste of time

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    Re: Systemd hell

    So, now that we're into questions and fixes, I'm moving the thread over to Servers for better assists.
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