Any Xorg accidents?
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View Poll Results: How often do you push CTRL+ALT+Backspace accidentally?

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  • At least once a day. I can't help myself.

    1 2.63%
  • Whenever there's a solar eclipse and it gets dark

    2 5.26%
  • It happened a few times, by accident. Really!

    1 2.63%
  • Once

    3 7.89%
  • Never

    31 81.58%
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  1. #1
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    Any Xorg accidents?

    Some people might have heard about this news. But let me repeat:

    The CTRL+ALT+Backspace combination to reset the X server is going to be disabled in F-11. It is actually not a Fedora decision, but rather a decision of the xorg developers, and Fedora is "generally" obeying the upstream defaults.

    As a workaround you can add this to your xorg.conf to get it re-enabled:

    Code:
     Section "ServerFlags"
             Option "DontZap" "false"
     EndSection
    Many people find this decision just stupid. From the discussions I followed, one of the main reasons CTRL+ALT+Backspace is disabled is given as: "people can push this combination accidentally."

    So here is a poll. How often does such an accident happen in your life?
    oget, the "Pulse against"

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    I see a flood of CTRL+ALT+Backspace threads opening in the near future........

    Can we get some comments from the 30% of folks that are Xorg accident-prone?

    Maybe an auxiliary poll of "How often do you uses CTRL+ALT+Backspace?" would give an idea of the size of the tsunami heading this way...
    Last edited by shess01; 13th April 2009 at 11:02 AM.
    ...What if there were no hypothetical questions?

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    It appears even worse if you run your machines through a KVM.

    In that circumstance there may not be a monitor available a boot time until you physically switch to that computer. If I start a computer without monitor like that I am presented with a basic 800x600 screen.

    A quick Ctrl-Alt-Backspace would always rectify that problem.

    Was a time when restart X-server would appear as an option on the login screen but I don't see that now either.

    I suppose one way round that problem may be to generate an xorg.conf file and specify a default resolution there, but of course the last time I looked Fedora weren't shipping system-config-display as a preinstalled option either.

    Way of the world though isn't it. Dumb down everything as much as you can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shess01
    Can we get some comments from the 30% of folks that are Xorg accident-prone?
    The 30% of folks you're looking for are EMACS users. A small minority decided what is best for the majority. I welcome our new emacs using xorg overlords.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodor009
    The 30% of folks you're looking for are EMACS users. A small minority decided what is best for the majority. I welcome our new emacs using xorg overlords.
    You mean they run EMACS under X11? But everyone knows that real EMACS ubergeeks implement their own graphic systems ON TOP OF the EMACS operating system, in EMACS-Lisp, the only language of choice! Not the other way around!

    I for one look forward to the year of EMACS OS on the desktop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aleph
    You mean they run EMACS under X11? But everyone knows that real EMACS ubergeeks implement their own graphic systems ON TOP OF the EMACS operating system, in EMACS-Lisp, the only language of choice! Not the other way around!

    I for one look forward to the year of EMACS OS on the desktop.
    Hey, it's not an operating system. It's god. It even has its own church (google it).

    Meanwhile, as one of the oldest emacs knights, I never felt the need of using ctrl+alt+backspace in emacs. And I am doubtful towards the emacs conspiracy theory.
    oget, the "Pulse against"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ogetbilo
    Meanwhile, as one of the oldest emacs knights, I never felt the need of using ctrl+alt+backspace in emacs. And I am doubtful towards the emacs conspiracy theory.
    How else do you fat finger C-A-B by accident. While I don't know if it's a conspiracy or not, no one has given a good explanation of how this fat fingering occurs other than emacs and no attention to detail.

    How likely is this to occur to a non emacs user? From my own experience, never. Your mileage may vary.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogetbilo
    Hey, it's not an operating system. It's god. It even has its own church (google it).

    Meanwhile, as one of the oldest emacs knights, I never felt the need of using ctrl+alt+backspace in emacs. And I am doubtful towards the emacs conspiracy theory.
    The only way I find it possible to hit the ctrl-alt-backspace sequence is when using the "indent-region" function with the key sequence C-M-\. However I seldom use EMACS to edit source code so I can't speak for others.

    And yes, EMACS is god I remember last year in a local FOSS convention they invited RMS and the guy "preached" EMACS at the end of his speech. He failed to "convert" me, though

    Anyway, I don't believe it's an EMACS conspiracy. However it does raise the question about the motivation behind this change (and I believe it could count as a major change in the default features). I wonder if the Xorg guys have actually done any serious usability study about their software, or they just changed it "for the kicks".
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    I also heard some people say that C-A-B had flaws that meant it while it worked for some types of issues it failed to do anything useful in a lot of other cases and that there should really be a better more functional replacement perhaps with an even harder to accidentally use key combo. Why is it so hard to instead deprecate C-A-B but leave it enabled by default until this better alternative is actually designed and implemented.

    We should have a poll of how many people have run sudo rm -Rf / by accident. I bet the people are answering yes there are the same people who have hit C-A-B in this poll.

    Its easy to see before this change the only thing you hear about is the horror stories about somebodies cat pressing C-A-B and losing work that hasnt been saved in 6 weeks but i bet nobody heard about the other side from people who have saved themselves a lot of time and effort by pressing C-A-B. Thats understandable. Would any users here just message out of the blue to say C-A-B saved the day? Most people only get vocal if something is wrong. Lets hope the Xorg devs hear these complaints and see sense.
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    I should also point out that users can complain all they like to developers and they will see a series of complaints. If on the other hand a number of distributions deliberately change their own packages to have C-A-B enabled by default then thats real pressure for upstream to change back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John5342
    Its easy to see before this change the only thing you hear about is the horror stories about somebodies cat pressing C-A-B and losing work that hasnt been saved in 6 weeks but i bet nobody heard about the other side from people who have saved themselves a lot of time and effort by pressing C-A-B. Thats understandable. Would any users here just message out of the blue to say C-A-B saved the day?
    The C-A-B sequence is useful when an X11 app goes rampant and sh!ts up the whole display. Just restart the X server and all connected processes will be kicked out, and you return to a clean state and try again.

    This reminds me of a debate (which was unfortunately started by me) on this forum about the rumor of Fedora removing non-X consoles. Both the restart X key combo and the non-X consoles can greatly help you if something under X goes terribly wrong. They don't have to "save the day" to justify their reason for existence.
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    Two days ago my X went berserk and got stuck at 99.9%. It was impossible to kill or change vty. I logged in via ssh and tried init 3. Didn't help, although I issued the command multiple times. It took ~5 minutes for init 6 to kick in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodor009
    How else do you fat finger C-A-B by accident.
    (...) How likely is this to occur to a non emacs user? From my own experience, never.
    It actually happened to me a few times (how often: maybe 1/year) :-) I try to avoid the (slow) mouse as much as possible, and so I rely heavily on keyboard shortcuts. All the times this happened to me I was in some sort of stressed near-deadline typing sprint (not in emacs, though, but kate or kile), which usually involves a lot of C+backspace combined with A+tab to switch to some other window from which I'm copying something.

    But, despite this, I prefer to have C+A+Backspace available to kill X: its usefulness by far surpasses my clumsiness to hit that combination by accident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nokia
    Two days ago my X went berserk and got stuck at 99.9%. It was impossible to kill or change vty. I logged in via ssh and tried init 3. Didn't help, although I issued the command multiple times. It took ~5 minutes for init 6 to kick in.
    I have a lot of respect for the Xorg developers, but this still does happen a lot more often than it should... Which is why I think they shouldn't get rid of C-A-B completely, but make it extremely difficult to hit "by accident". For example, pressing control-alt-both_shifts-backspace twice within two seconds.
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    Where were the xorg developers taking their "study" of this issue from... a bunch of boozed up cack-handed retards at the local chuck-e-cheese? Or was it perhaps corporate headquarters at Novell (read M$).

    ANYONE who makes the claim they simultaneously depress three distinct keys accidentally is a LIAR.

    This arguement sounds incredibly similar to the "too many people are accidentaly logging in as root and damaging their computers so now we have to disable the root login".

    Oh... and who says we're going to be able to add anything to the xorg.conf? Isn't that supposed to be deprecated and removed too?
    Last edited by pwca; 13th April 2009 at 08:15 PM.

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