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tox
4th April 2012, 01:59 AM
Fedora18 Feature List (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/FeatureList)

Fedora18 Schedule (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule) No Schedule as of yet

FAQ: Do I Need To Reinstall Fedora18 Final Release When its Out?

Answer: No. Just Keep Your System Up To Date on a Daily Basis And it Will Switch Automatically to The Final Release


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewInstallerUI

jvillain
20th June 2012, 12:57 AM
I was just looking at this <cough> feature. Offline Updates using systemd and PackageKit (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates)

Is it now going to be mandatory to boot into the equivalent of single user mode in order to update packages? If so I am going to be deeply pissed. If Solaris admins hate Linux why don't they just use Solaris rather than continuously forcing Linux to be Solaris. Updates take up to an hour as it is, due to rebuilding meta data. If the machine has to be off line for an hour for a trivial update we have a real problem.

smr54
20th June 2012, 01:48 AM
Wow, hope not. Or if it is, hope that RH doesn't blithely throw it into their server releases.

Looks like, however, that it's only an option, not mandatory.


Note that this feature does not prevent you from using yum and other commandline tools to install updates whenever you want to. We also differentiate updates of 'OS components' (which we want to do in this offline fashion) from application updates and installations, which should still be possible from the UI without restarting the system.

cazo
20th June 2012, 05:24 AM
I understood that to mean certain updates (maybe kernel?) will work more like yum 'preupgrade' does now - the updates get downloaded in the background, then you reboot into a 'safe mode' for the updates to be installed, then continue on into 'normal mode'.

It does remind my of my brief experience with Vista, where updates are downloaded before you are nagged to reboot so they can be installed. When you do, you have to wait while the updates install before you can log in to find what didn't install.

jvillain
20th June 2012, 09:35 PM
With Vista it used to take 3 or 4 reboots to get the updates done and the machine is completely useless while that happens. For people where up time is important this is bad. Yo, boss I want to take the prod database off line for updates. How long? No idea. What do you mean fired?

deanej
21st June 2012, 02:35 AM
Seriously, not having to reboot for updates is one of my favorite things about Linux.

DBelton
21st June 2012, 03:57 AM
Looks to me that by doing "offline updates" then a lot of people aren't going to be keeping their system up to date.

Me, I update, then I may or may not reboot depending upon what updates are installed. I will not be using the offline updates at all. If I don't have a way to update the system as I normally do, then it won't get updated.

SlowJet
24th June 2012, 10:37 PM
Gee, a context in which to actually use the expression, "Seriously?"

From rawhide, keep updating, to ALPHA, to BETA, to Final, as defined by fedora-release-nn-nn-fcnn.rpm (which changes any repos as neeeded.
NOT, updating from F17 to F18.
Offline updates? An rpm is an rpm and is installed, updated, erased by rpm.
I use a usb stick to truck a load to my off-line Beefy ranch.

SJ

Colors
26th June 2012, 10:13 PM
Maybe it's not what an experienced user want but i see this move as the begining of desktop linux or linux for the masses. I installed Fedora on many computers and broken updates was a real issue. If linux is espected to "take the world" it needs to deal with users as they are in the Windows world.

SlowJet
26th June 2012, 11:38 PM
Maybe it's not what an experienced user want but i see this move as the begining of desktop linux or linux for the masses. I installed Fedora on many computers and broken updates was a real issue. If linux is espected to "take the world" it needs to deal with users as they are in the Windows world.

Fedora is a fast paced developement distrobution of Linux.
I think you want Redhat 6.2+, which is a long time ago from F17 or F18, but meets Redhat's server market.

Linux is not staged to take the world, just provide great software to use by anyone.

SJ

deanej
27th June 2012, 01:40 AM
How does forcing people to install updates separably from doing other work make linux more suitable for a normal user? I've never even heard of this broken update issue...

smr54
27th June 2012, 02:04 AM
This is getting reminiscent of slashdot--where folks read an inflammatory summary and then answer the facts, as shown in the summary, without reading the original article being summarized.

No one is being forced to do anything. As I understand it, if you prefer a GUI tool to install and update your system, it does stuff to make it less likely to break things. I suspect (but don't know, because, not using a GUI tool, I haven't investigated it any further), that you can avoid it, even with GUI tools. For all who use yum to update their systems, it will be just the way it was.

SlowJet
27th June 2012, 02:05 AM
How does forcing people to install updates separably from doing other work make linux more suitable for a normal user? I've never even heard of this broken update issue...

Rawhide is broken here and there through the devel cycle.

yum and rpm on a relesed cycle are very stable for the most part.
If one only uses update, and not updates-testing or koji repos, it is rare that there is a problem except for non core dvd programs that not everyone uses.

Got to go, just came back to the library to get the newest koji kernel for f17.

SJ

Colors
27th June 2012, 06:52 AM
Most common action is to shut down or restart the pc in the middle of an automatic update. I do my updates manually but for the average user who needs only libreoffice and internet browsing you cannot ask him that, simply because he don't have a clue and has no interest anyway.

If you "provide great software to use by anyone" you better keep in mind that people don't bother about freedom, they want little interaction with their computers and no hassle with "silly updates" and so on. That's why locked down software is all they need.

Linux is great as OS but it's about market and money and slowly will become more window-ish, more polished and comfortable in using it. This is not something wrong and i personally have waited for a long time this feature.

deanej
27th June 2012, 06:03 PM
So we're supposed to throw us more advanced users under the bus because some people are, quite frankly, too dumb to use a computer?

And auto updates is not the same thing as requiring a reboot to update. I believe Fedora can be configured to do auto updates now. I have only had to restart for an update once in my history of using Linux, and rebooting takes a LOT longer than logging of and logging back in (ESPECIALLY with Gnome 3 being such a heavy window manager), especially if the updates have to be installed during the reboot (a la Windows 7) instead of before (a la Windows XP).

And this all has to happen while I'm there, because I sleep in the same room my computer is in and need to put my laptop into standby every night to keep the light level down (it's also good to give the laptop a chance to cool down).

Kernellinux
28th June 2012, 06:11 PM
So we're supposed to throw us more advanced users under the bus because some people are, quite frankly, too dumb to use a computer?

I didn't see any discussion of Mac users on this thread :D

I agree that efforts should be made to make Fedora into a desktop operating system anyone can use, but quite honestly my mother, who is browses the web and checks her email and calls me for anything else has been using Fedora for 6 months now, and I haven't had a single call...okay she called once to ask where the "Shut-Down" was becuase she could only find suspend, but other than that I would argue that Fedora IS ready for the average Windows user.

Since my "beta-test" with my mother I've replaced 5 Windows users with Fedora and the only complaint I've had is they can't watch Netflix.

Somewhere in here should be a thank you to the developers for all the hard work and the excellent product that we all use, but let's hope it doesn't get ruined with offline updates.

Dutchy
29th June 2012, 12:50 AM
I'm also a bit sceptical about the offline update "feature".
It always annoys the hell out of me when I incidentally boot up Windows and it first wants to do updates.

I don't see the big advantage for Linux, I never noticed something got broken because it was in-use during an update.
What actually could be useful about it is the automatic snapshot part, but that seems to depend on btrfs.
Another way it could be useful is if it does the updates (or only the tricky ones) on shutdown in some kind of special environment somehow.

glway
18th July 2012, 08:55 AM
I am getting confused here... Why would anyone want to put offline updates as a "feature"?!?! Honestly that's going to be a huge pain in the arse... I mean forget the average user-come one. And wtf do you do if you are running a server with fedora-that is going to be a nightmare everytime you want to upgrade something...

DBelton
19th July 2012, 07:17 AM
If you think that's bad.. Just wait until you see "Initial Experience" they are wanting to replace Firstboot with

Basically, they are wanting to get you to re-enter several things you specified during the anaconda install like language, keyboard type, time zone, network settings and make it look more like Windows. They are even wanting a Gnome 3 "tour" at the end of the "Initial Experience"

Cripes.. What a crappy idea.

glway
19th July 2012, 08:18 AM
Omfg noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DBelton
19th July 2012, 08:30 AM
Serious.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/InitialExperience

https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointFive/Features/InitialSetup

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/InitialSetup

glway
19th July 2012, 09:01 AM
I'm struggling to figure out why are they trying to ruin the best linux distro out there... seriously....

smr54
19th July 2012, 02:38 PM
People justifying their salary?

DBelton
19th July 2012, 02:49 PM
People justifying their salary?

Justifying it to whom? Mickey Mouse?

I can just imagine the dialog now...

We need what?

A guided tour, you know, just like Windows does. Since we are trying to copy Windows, we need a disk hungry, processor munching, totally useless application so we we can remain in the competition.

I thought we did that with Gnome 3 shell?

We did, but this is the icing on the cake. The coup de grāce. The whipped cream on the banana split. With this feature, we will be one more step closer to being a Windows clone!

Mmmmm.. I love banana splits.. Approved!

Edit:

Actually, this does say a lot about their redesign of Gnome for "ease of use" if they feel they now need a guided tour so that people can find their way around. Let me see. People have been using Gnome for what?? 12-13 years or so without needing any kind of guided tour until they did their redesign of the desktop.

glway
19th July 2012, 04:05 PM
^^I absolutely agree. Tbh I hated gnome 3 when i first saw it but a couple of days into it it felt rather nice. But adding all that microsoft style bullcrap is a pure nightmare. I've loved fedora for as long as I can remember but the whole update and introduction and shiny gizmos that no one will give a crap about... come on people find your senses!!!!

nonamedotc
19th July 2012, 09:33 PM
Serious.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/InitialExperience

https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointFive/Features/InitialSetup

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/InitialSetup

This is inane and this is from a GNOME 3 user! :doh:

Who is giving them these ideas?!?! :Y

hadrons123
21st July 2012, 08:53 AM
Serious.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/InitialExperience

https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointFive/Features/InitialSetup

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/InitialSetup

I think, what they are trying to do is better than current firstboot.

DBelton
21st July 2012, 12:53 PM
Possibly.. But, if they wish to do a better firstboot, then rewrite firstboot. Don't throw a new, Gnome only application in there.

So how is this going to work? You install, then reboot. Firstboot starts before GDM/Gnome, so how is it going to know if this new "Initial Experience" is going to be run or not? Or how will the new Initial Experience know if you have already run firstboot or not?

These are two totally different applications, and run at two different times in the boot process.

I have a feeling that either some people will get both firstboot and the initial experience run, or some people won't get either one.

If I have a choice, I would prefer the current firstboot, since it is quick to get through, about the only thing I set up is a user. Just abut all of the other stuff they are talking about it doing is done during the install anyway (except for the "window-ish guided tour for dummies"). Last time I checked, the locale, keyboard, and time zone set up was done in the install. Why re-invent the wheel?

Dutchy
21st July 2012, 02:56 PM
Some more "improvedness" that F18 will feature (at least I think it will get Gnome Shell 3.6?): Nautilus revamp (http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/07/this-is-how-new-nautilus-looks-in-ubuntu.html)

It does look better and the search function is quite nice, but:
-no more new file
-no more tree style sidebar
-no more ... (whole bunch of stuff that I normally do not use but others probably do and will miss).

I think this will upset a lot of people again and I will probably end up with creating some script to create a new empty file.
Apparently you need to have at least one template file in order to create an empty one from the context menu (looks like this has been the case for some time now).

It is currently testable in Rawhide and Ubuntu 12.10 alpha 2 (after some updates).

DBelton
21st July 2012, 06:13 PM
Their reasoning for completely removing tree view??

"It is the list view after all. Tree models don't work well on touch and it isn't consistent with the file chooser."

However, in past versions, the user could select to use tree view or not. Let the $^%$&# touch screen users select not to use it, and leave it in for others that do want it.

R3v0lut10nary
26th July 2012, 12:10 AM
Justifying it to whom? Mickey Mouse?

I can just imagine the dialog now...

We need what?

A guided tour, you know, just like Windows does. Since we are trying to copy Windows, we need a disk hungry, processor munching, totally useless application so we we can remain in the competition.

I thought we did that with Gnome 3 shell?

We did, but this is the icing on the cake. The coup de grāce. The whipped cream on the banana split. With this feature, we will be one more step closer to being a Windows clone!

Mmmmm.. I love banana splits.. Approved!

Edit:

Actually, this does say a lot about their redesign of Gnome for "ease of use" if they feel they now need a guided tour so that people can find their way around. Let me see. People have been using Gnome for what?? 12-13 years or so without needing any kind of guided tour until they did their redesign of the desktop.

Am I fixin' to have to switch to BSD or a different Linux distribution?

smr54
26th July 2012, 01:48 AM
Nope. Just a different desktop. I suspect if you stick to Gnome and go to another distro, sooner or later, their Gnome will be the same.

R3v0lut10nary
26th July 2012, 03:24 AM
I already use KDE. So I guess the Gnome Tour won't affect me.

However, Fedora is starting to cheese out on us with stuff like this.

sonoran
26th July 2012, 05:44 AM
but this is the icing on the cake. The coup de grāce. The whipped cream on the banana split.

Makes me hungry for the cherry on top... :D

Yellowman
26th July 2012, 09:18 AM
Their reasoning for completely removing tree view??

"It is the list view after all. Tree models don't work well on touch and it isn't consistent with the file chooser."

However, in past versions, the user could select to use tree view or not. Let the $^%$&# touch screen users select not to use it, and leave it in for others that do want it.

I don't give a damn what they do as I have my own plans for a new/forked file manager for F18 :)

https://github.com/linuxmint/nemo

R3v0lut10nary
26th July 2012, 08:50 PM
Mint is the most annoying distribution.

deanej
26th July 2012, 08:55 PM
Why? I was thinking of trying it. It seemed to work well with with the Mint/MATE live USB I made.

R3v0lut10nary
26th July 2012, 11:35 PM
It works, it's just.... a few reasons. One of which is I don't like gnome much, especially gnome 3, and Mint's fork Cinnamon doesn't do much for me either. To get into the other stuff would have nothing to do with F18/Rawhide and the admins would probably kill me with fire....

Dutchy
6th August 2012, 02:25 PM
Gnome 3.6 gets a beefier disks utility!
A preview of Gnome Disks 3.6 (http://worldofgnome.org/a-preview-of-gnome-disks-3-6/)

I think the mentioned features are pretty satisfying and impressive improvements.
Let's hope they will also bring back other useful features that they've sacrificed before (Gnome wide that is).

vein
9th August 2012, 12:35 AM
While a certain amount of this is superfluous for us, the tour isn't necessarily a bad thing IMO. The desktop/laptop to tablet transition is going to make Gnome shun anything that won't work for a touch interface. To be honest, few tablets will be running any form of linux any time soon I think. Touch interfaces on desktops and laptops will be coming soon enough, but those have their own growing pains in terms of hardware and capability. The best thing that Gnome, KDE, etc. can do is fork things into a tablet and non-tablet form. If nothing else, RHEL needs an intermediate that isn't going to remove too many features for the sake of a touch interface.

BBQdave
9th August 2012, 12:51 AM
To be honest, few tablets will be running any form of linux any time soon I think. Touch interfaces on desktops and laptops will be coming soon enough, but those have their own growing pains in terms of hardware and capability.

I am sincerely not trying to mess with your thoughts...

But where are all these touch interface desktops and devices suppose to come from :confused:
Are vendors really going to try and shovel out hardware (touch) with Windoze 8 :confused:
What do these marketing geniuses think me and my fellow Joe and Jane Sixpack are going to be buying and using :confused:
Yeah, I know, everybody's chewing on an iShiney... but even apple is not yet killing the desktop.
It is all fun and games to have an app to show you which hand to wipe with... but at the end of the day, somebody has to do real work on a real machine (keyboard and mouse) :p

R3v0lut10nary
9th August 2012, 01:57 AM
I vow to never, ever use a touch interface as my main gig.

I'm trying to picture a cubicle farm full of people swiping at their screens, jerking their arms all about. It's not working for me.

vein
9th August 2012, 04:00 AM
I am sincerely not trying to mess with your thoughts...

But where are all these touch interface desktops and devices suppose to come from :confused:
Are vendors really going to try and shovel out hardware (touch) with Windoze 8 :confused:
What do these marketing geniuses think me and my fellow Joe and Jane Sixpack are going to be buying and using :confused:
Yeah, I know, everybody's chewing on an iShiney... but even apple is not yet killing the desktop.
It is all fun and games to have an app to show you which hand to wipe with... but at the end of the day, somebody has to do real work on a real machine (keyboard and mouse) :p

I understand, and think we are largely on the same page. Up until this point, I have liked Gnome Shell and its minimalist design. I also see where it can lose all usability though, and I'm hoping that this won't be the case. I prefer Fedora on my workstations, but I need a DE that can function in such a scenario.

As for where the tablets are coming from, it's hard to say. I don't know where they think they are coming from to be honest. I do know however that this is what they think. Against my better judgement, I'll provide this link so you can at least see the slides used at the recent GUADEC...

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE0ODg

EDIT: Further clarification to Phoronix's sensationalism:
https://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/gnome-os/

BBQdave
9th August 2012, 05:19 AM
As for where the tablets are coming from, it's hard to say

I think that is what will be interesting. Acer (and I am guessing other vendors) are not too happy with Microsoft and Windows 8 - and Microsoft competing with it's own vendors. This definitely opens the door for other OS's on tablets. But I think the real opportunity will be with inexpensive desktop and notebook hardware. Not sure how Gnome 3 is going to position itself in that market? And I believe desktops and notebooks are going to be relevant for awhile longer :)

Velociraptor
9th August 2012, 06:04 AM
This is getting reminiscent of slashdot--where folks read an inflammatory summary and then answer the facts, as shown in the summary, without reading the original article being summarized.

No one is being forced to do anything. As I understand it, if you prefer a GUI tool to install and update your system, it does stuff to make it less likely to break things. I suspect (but don't know, because, not using a GUI tool, I haven't investigated it any further), that you can avoid it, even with GUI tools. For all who use yum to update their systems, it will be just the way it was.
YAAAAH!! I was sweating reading through this post

Dutchy
14th August 2012, 09:18 PM
but at the end of the day, somebody has to do real work on a real machine (keyboard and mouse)
True that, from time to time I like to casually browse this forum with my Android phone but when I want to comment at something I really need a keyboard and mouse. It's that or I probably forget about it while I keep on browsing (most of the time it's way too much of a hassle to type a comment with a mobile browser).
On other hand it is good to have an OS that is versatile and touch friendly, e.g. when I use VNC from my phone it is a hack of a lot easier to manoeuvre with Gnome Shell than it was when I still used RDP to control the Windows UI from my Android.

As for Nautilus, I am getting to like its newest itteration, the type-to-search is starting to work really well and the new recent location is also nice.
However I still don't know why they had to remove the tree view (worked quite good in the side bar) and why the old computer:/// had to be replaced by the old (root) file system (computer:/// still works but its desktop icon is missing and in the side bar Computer refers to root).

Demz3
22nd August 2012, 11:45 PM
Fedora 18 Alpha to slip by one week http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-August/109582.html

Demz3
25th August 2012, 12:02 AM
seems a few peeps already are starting to think this New Anaconda should be delayed for F19 read from this post http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-August/109623.html

errorxp
25th August 2012, 12:04 PM
Anybody tried out DNF yet?

DBelton
25th August 2012, 02:05 PM
DNF?? As in Do Not Flush? :lol:

I don't really see any need to try DNF myself. I much prefer using yum. It serves all of my needs, and is pretty reliable.

But I am still waiting on a version of anaconda that works as I need it to before installing F18.

Dutchy
25th August 2012, 03:54 PM
Anybody tried out DNF yet?
I tried it out once and it happily updated some packages that yum refused because of dependency problems (so it is probably not very reliable yet, although I didn't notice anything broken afterwards).

Demz3
25th August 2012, 11:37 PM
DNF?? As in Do Not Flush? :lol:

I don't really see any need to try DNF myself. I much prefer using yum. It serves all of my needs, and is pretty reliable.

But I am still waiting on a version of anaconda that works as I need it to before installing F18.

might have to wait 2 weeks or more for one, ( as i have posted above why ) some people feel this New anaconda aint ready for F18 yet if there is not gonna be a LiveCD ( something about Code not being written in anaconda yet? least thats what i saw Dennis Gilmore say in the devel irc channel ) but IMO if they release this New anaconda in F18 thats a half baked feature fedora will only cop $h1t from the public about it

DBelton
25th August 2012, 11:46 PM
I feel that anaconda's not ready as well, and for more reasons than just not being able to get the LiveCD images, though.

No LiveCD images, and the DVD has been crippled to the point where it's totally useless as well. MY vote is to postpone the anaconda update until F19 when it might possibly be a little closer to being ready.

Edit:

I am totally in agreement that anaconda does need the complete rewrite, and I had hoped to see it in F18, but it's not ready. I would much rather see it postponed for a release than to put crippled and buggy code in just so they can get it out.

Demz3
26th August 2012, 12:13 AM
I feel that anaconda's not ready as well, and for more reasons than just not being able to get the LiveCD images, though.

No LiveCD images, and the DVD has been crippled to the point where it's totally useless as well. MY vote is to postpone the anaconda update until F19 when it might possibly be a little closer to being ready.

Edit:

I am totally in agreement that anaconda does need the complete rewrite, and I had hoped to see it in F18, but it's not ready. I would much rather see it postponed for a release than to put crippled and buggy code in just so they can get it out.

i use LiveCD's only to test to make sure its gonna work on my hardware before i download a DvD so LiveCD's are essential to have so releasing F18 Alpha without LiveCD's would be useless

nonamedotc
26th August 2012, 12:21 AM
i use LiveCD's only to test to make sure its gonna work on my hardware before i download a DvD so LiveCD's are essential to have so releasing F18 Alpha without LiveCD's would be useless

Based on what we have seen so far, does it make a difference between using DVD vs Live CD anymore? I am not sure ...

Demz3
26th August 2012, 12:24 AM
Based on what we have seen so far, does it make a difference between using DVD vs Live CD anymore? I am not sure ...

who is " we " ? thats a bit like saying does it make a difference driving a v6 an a v8 car

DBelton
26th August 2012, 02:09 AM
i use LiveCD's only to test to make sure its gonna work on my hardware before i download a DvD so LiveCD's are essential to have so releasing F18 Alpha without LiveCD's would be useless

That is the same here.

I always install from the DVD because I want to customize the install the way I want my system to be, but I will always download and burn the LiveCD images as well. Most of the time I grab the LiveCD first and test things out, then grab the DVD and do the install.

And as things are currently with the new re-write of anaconda, there is only one benefit that I can see in using the DVD image over the LiveCD image. That is being able to choose what filesystem it installs.

The options to install more than one desktop and the options to customize the packages installed are gone.

So in my opinion, the DVD image is practically useless.

Demz3
26th August 2012, 02:16 AM
hard to say at this point what anaconda they'll be using for F18 going by the ticket AdamW filed an the comments in it. but it wouldnt surprise me if they delay F18 again just to get this New UI out the door. a lot of people do install from a LiveCD,

hadrons123
26th August 2012, 02:29 AM
The netinstall.iso is very good for customizing the packages. Its lot easier that way. It just takes less than an hour to download all the packages.

I use ArchLinux too. When the AIF wasn't ready, they went with the text install option. I would be happy with just a text install of F18 alpha, and when the anaconda is ready maybe they could bring it in beta.
I know there are some strict requirements in fedora, but maybe they could relax the rule a bit.

DBelton
26th August 2012, 03:12 AM
Actually, relaxing the rules a bit isn't the answer, and could be creating an even larger problem.

What happens if they relax the rules, allowing alpha to be released with anaconda not meeting the criteria, then when beta comes along, anaconda still hasn't met the criteria? By that time, it's too late to go fall back to the previous anaconda, and not enough time to get the new anaconda in.

That is the danger of relaxing the criteria.

deanej
26th August 2012, 06:00 PM
Based on what we have seen so far, does it make a difference between using DVD vs Live CD anymore? I am not sure ...

Only hundreds of packages that are not included on the live cd; the live cd is a minimal install, if you want any of the other options you need the dvd.

That said, all of the spins of Fedora only offer live images.

DBelton
26th August 2012, 07:33 PM
The current F18 DVD may still have more packages on it, but no way to select them to install.

You can only select 1 desktop environment, and you can't customize the install to add more (or remove) packages.

So, in essence, If you install the Gnome desktop from the DVD, it would be the same as installing the Gnome desktop from the LiveCD, except for having options to set your filesystem up how you want.

That is what I meant above by a crippled DVD,

deanej
26th August 2012, 09:42 PM
The live cd only has the minimal install; the graphical desktop (which I believe is the default, if there is one) has hundreds more packages than that, including LibreOffice and other applications. Never really used the other features myself... don't know enough about what packages do what to make it worthwhile.

AdamW
27th August 2012, 06:56 AM
deanej: the difference isn't quite as big as you suggest, to be strictly accurate - the live images are rather bigger than 'minimal'. But yeah, you do get a few more packages when installing from DVD, for space reasons. (You get even more when doing a network install, compared to a DVD, too.)

Just to be clear on something: though I included the possibility in the ticket for completeness, I don't think there's any realistic possibility we'd choose to release Alpha entirely without live images. The option has no advantage over including non-installable live images. I think if we were going to decide to release on schedule with the live install function not done, we'd certainly go ahead and provide non-installable lives.

The QA meeting tomorrow (Monday 08-27) - in about 9 hours from now - will include a discussion of the issue, for the record. FESCo isn't meeting this week due to too many members being absent (I think at LPC), so they'll be discussing it in the ticket I believe, rather than at a meeting.

Demz3
27th August 2012, 07:00 AM
i'd be happy if the liveCD's werent installable. but my main concern for LiveCD's is just to test the release on my hardware. i could/can download a DvD at a later time

DBelton
27th August 2012, 07:07 AM
Only reason I grab a LiveCD is to boot up a running system. I never install from a LiveCD anyway. So installable or not, makes me no difference.

Interesting, though... I might download 3 or 4 LiveCD images to test things out but only 1 DVD image to install from :lol:

Demz3
6th September 2012, 10:46 PM
Today at Go/No-Go meeting it was decided to slip Fedora 18
Alpha release by one week due to remaining open blocker bugs
[1] and incomplete test matrices for Alpha [2][3][4]. Meeting's
full log is at [5].

As a result, ALL MAJOR MILESTONES, and their dependent tasks,
will be pushed out by one week.

The next Go/No-Go meeting is on Thursday Sep 13, same place,
same time (19:00 UTC, 3 PM EDT, 21:00 CEST #fedora-meeting-1).

If you have an accepted blocker bug, please try to fix it
as soon as possible to help us with Fedora 18 Alpha release!

Thanks
Jaroslav

[1] http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/current
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Base_Test
[3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test
[4] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test
[5] http://bit.ly/Rf9AfR mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 AM ----------

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-September/171377.html

nonamedotc
6th September 2012, 10:50 PM
again?! :doh:

smr54
6th September 2012, 11:10 PM
Better they wait, than ship it with badly broken bits, no?

nonamedotc
6th September 2012, 11:17 PM
True ... That was an impulsive post :D

But yeah, every TC seems to have some improvement or other so far - so I guess all is in the right direction :)

Demz3
6th September 2012, 11:30 PM
if they an get more improvements to anaconda im all for the slip

AdamW
8th September 2012, 08:20 AM
if you want details, read the logs, but remember, if you've been following the TCs, you know the exact state of things: what we had at go/no-go was TC5, and I'm sure you'd all agree that TC5 was not remotely releasable :)

Things are looking a lot better today. I'm fairly confident we'll hit the release with no further delays, as things stand right now.

Demz3
8th September 2012, 09:46 AM
if you want details, read the logs, but remember, if you've been following the TCs, you know the exact state of things: what we had at go/no-go was TC5, and I'm sure you'd all agree that TC5 was not remotely releasable :)

Things are looking a lot better today. I'm fairly confident we'll hit the release with no further delays, as things stand right now.

i'll wait an download/burn TC7 or RC1. i read your message i think on the test list that they now can be installed from a LiveCD?

---------- Post added at 06:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2012-September/109912.html

AdamW
8th September 2012, 06:10 PM
yeah, live install is basically working now - multiple reports that it worked in TC6, and I've checked that it works with 18.6.6 too. It should definitely work for the next build too.

Demz3
13th September 2012, 10:42 PM
Fedora 18 Alpha is hereby declared GOLD http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-September/171592.html

Demz3
18th September 2012, 05:28 AM
Dan

you may wanna Add this to the Fedoraproject link on the template http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F18_bugs

lsatenstein
8th October 2012, 12:40 AM
Seriously, not having to reboot for updates is one of my favorite things about Linux.

For application programs and all files not associated with the kernel, you do not require taking the system off-line, unless.... (the hooker), going off line updates a global library or link.

With the kernel, a kernel update may require changes to parameter files, or even replacement libraries. It is not always possible to do a hot-swap to a library, if the library is not closed (and released by the old kernel before the new one can take over), functions in the new kernel may not exist in the previous version. etc. etc. Therefore, rely on the author to determine if kernel updates require a reboot. You may also decide to not reboot until a convenient time.

DBelton
8th October 2012, 03:39 PM
I do usually reboot when I update the kernel, but I despise the automatic "reboot to update" feature. So glad I don't have to worry about it here, since I don't even have packagekit installed at all.

Even if I had packagekit installed, I would disable the "reboot to update" crap. Reminds me way too much of Windows where you had to install updates, reboot, install more updates, reboot again.. rinse and repeat over and over...

nonamedotc
8th October 2012, 03:44 PM
Even if I had packagekit installed, I would disable the "reboot to update" crap. Reminds me way too much of Windows where you had to install updates, reboot, install more updates, reboot again.. rinse and repeat over and over...

I didn't think it was possible to disable that feature separately. I might be wrong on this though. Or, did you mean disabling packagekit?

DBelton
8th October 2012, 03:54 PM
I don't even have PackageKit installed, so I am not certain if there is a way to disable the offline updates feature. I remember seeing someplace that they were putting in a way, but it hadn't been implemented at the time I was reading about it. I don't know if they have it in yet or not, though.

nonamedotc
8th October 2012, 04:04 PM
I saw it in my F18 install. There was an "Install Updates and Shut Down" option in place of "Shut Down". But I have not yet got around to poking at it ... :)

DBelton
8th October 2012, 04:13 PM
Find a long stick to poke it with so ya don't get hurt in the process :lol:

hadrons123
8th October 2012, 07:42 PM
Delayed again!
I hope fedora 18 is released by at least before Christmas !
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-October/172171.html

nonamedotc
8th October 2012, 07:50 PM
Delayed again!
I hope fedora 18 is released by at least before Christmas !


I would much rather prefer this in place of relaxing criteria to stick with the schedule. I like the fact that anaconda is becoming more and more stable. So, if it means everything will work properly because of delay - so be it! :)

Yellowman
8th October 2012, 08:06 PM
Delayed again!
I hope fedora 18 is released by at least before Christmas !
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-October/172171.html


:dance::dance::dance:

Another week to complete some more nemo extensions :)

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=864089

file-roller extension next :)

DBelton
8th October 2012, 08:09 PM
They did change some of the beta criteria, but I don't believe it was relaxing them as much as clarifying them.

I too don't like the idea of relaxing criteria at the last minute (as I have mentioned several times before). If the criteria needs changing, it should be done when a release isn't hitting against the deadline for that milestone. As I have said before, it really makes no difference if the criteria really does need changing, if you change it when a release is at that milestone, then it looks unprofessional and that you relaxed the criteria to push the release through.

Note about the change to the beta criteria I mentioned:
This is what AdamW said:





We discussed this topic today at the Fedora QA meeting: we may revisit it next week also.

We agreed to some revisions to the Fedora 18 release criteria which are of obvious interest on this topic. The criteria relating to partitioning that will be enforced for Beta are these:

"The installer must be able to complete an installation using automatic partitioning to any sufficiently large target disk, whether unformatted, empty, or containing any kind of existing data"

"The installer must allow the user to select which of the disks connected to the system will be affected by the installation process. Disks not selected as installation targets must not be affected by the installation process in any way"

"The installer must be able to complete an installation using automatic partitioning to a validly-formatted disk with sufficient empty space, using the empty space and installing a bootloader but leaving the pre-existing partitions and data untouched"

"The installer's custom partitioning mode must be capable of the following:

Creating, destroying and assigning mount points to partitions of any specified size using most commonly-used filesystem types
Creating encrypted partitions
Rejecting obviously invalid operations without crashing"

We also agreed on a revised Beta criterion for upgrading:

"It must be possible to successfully complete an upgrade from a fully updated installation of the previous stable Fedora release with the 'minimal' package set or the package set for a release-blocking desktop, using any officially recommended upgrade mechanism. The upgraded system must meet all release criteria."

Note the use of the word 'or' there is ambiguous and we will improve it: the intent is that it must be possible to upgrade to Fedora 18 Beta from *all three* of those Fedora 17 package sets, not just from *any one* of them. In practice this criterion is not really a change from the status quo prior to F18, it still means 'upgrade has to work at Beta' - it's just better wording for a world in which the upgrade process isn't necessarily part of anaconda.

So with those criteria - plus the other Beta criteria, which so far we believe do not require modification - established as the 'ground rules', our assessment is that Fedora 18 as it stands *right now* is not freeze-able for Beta. Our understanding is that the agreement is that we will not freeze until the basic code relating to all Beta release requirements is in place. The custom partitioning code in 18.10, the latest available anaconda build, does not have code to meet all the requirements above - it does not include 'autopart-into-empty-space' - and the new upgrade tool has not yet seen a testable release (or any release).

However, the anaconda team affirmed at the meeting that they believe the required code will be in place by the freeze date, 10-09. If the upgrade tool is in a testable state and the partitioning code covers the requirements stated above by 10-09, we would consider that to be good enough for the freeze to occur.


I would have to look to see exactly what was changed, though.

Demz3
8th October 2012, 11:32 PM
Delayed again!
I hope fedora 18 is released by at least before Christmas !
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-October/172171.html

a delay is better IMO than getting a half baked final product

DBelton
8th October 2012, 11:52 PM
I agree 100%, Demz.. I had much rather see a delay than for it to be released with major bugs. Even if the delay is a fairly long one, it's still better than a less than optimal product.

Holdolin
9th October 2012, 12:21 AM
a delay is better IMO than getting a half baked final product

Agreed 100%. Is one of my biggerst isuees with other distros, which are released every 6 months, ready or not (and they're usually NOT) :)

w2ibc
10th October 2012, 01:18 AM
Agreed 100%. Is one of my biggerst isuees with other distros, which are released every 6 months, ready or not (and they're usually NOT) :)

amen to that.

AdamW
10th October 2012, 07:07 AM
dbelton: there was previously not really any criteria for partitioning at Beta.

Prior to F18 the partitioning criteria were rather simple, because there was a rather neat division in anaconda which effectively served our purposes. You had the screen which gave you a few different automatic partitioning choices - 'Use entire disk', 'Use free space', 'Replace existing Linux partitions', all of those. It had checkboxes for LVM and encryption. And then you had custom partitioning. That was it, the whole partitioning design.

For the criteria we rather took advantage of this. There was one Alpha criterion, which basically said 'the different autopart choices all have to work'. It used more complex wording, but that's basically what it meant: you had to be able to use each of the options on that screen, including the encryption and LVM checkboxes, and if you could, Alpha was A-OK. Then for Final, we required custom partitioning to work. That was it, nice and clean. (There was a criterion specifically about RAID at Beta time, but that was all).

For newui the design is rather different and more complicated, there isn't such a nice clean split any more. There's a more interactive 'automatic' process, which tries to guide you through freeing up space by shrinking or deleting partitions if you need to, and the custom partitioning mode, which you now need to use if you want to do encryption or LVM. So we felt we had to really redo the partitioning criteria from scratch, and focus more on functional requirements rather than just taking advantage of handy features of the installer design. So that's what we did. We did relax the criteria as part of this, but that was more a result of stepping back and taking a look at what we really believe needs to be possible at Alpha: we agreed that an Alpha release doesn't really need to be capable of behaving nicely alongside other OS installations, because Alphas are early test releases that are explicitly _not_ supposed to be put in production. For the purposes for which an Alpha is meant, all the installer really needs to be able to do is get an installation done, if the target disk is big enough. Anything more refined than that is properly Beta stuff, not Alpha.

BTW, the delay we just agreed is rather an unusual one. We didn't go to freeze, then build TCs and RCs, then have a go/no-go and decide we don't meet the Beta criteria so we have to slip; instead we decided we were going to evaluate the status of anaconda *before* we froze, and not freeze if we didn't think anaconda was really done enough to start the freeze. And that's what we decided; we're going to slip the freeze date by a week.

We'll probably turn this into a more formal process for future releases, since it seems like a good idea. The basic idea is that we shouldn't freeze for any release point if we're not code-complete for the requirements of that release point: we have to at least have code present that implements the major release requirements. It doesn't have to be _working_, those are the blocker bugs we can fix during the freeze period, but it at least has to be _there_. As things stood when we agreed the delay, the new upgrade code wasn't released yet (it still isn't), so we agreed not to freeze.

lsatenstein
11th October 2012, 08:30 AM
After comparing the GUI changes with F18, against F17, I ask myself why the Show all icons is on the favorites bar. Is it to require me to do an extra click of the mouse. I already have carpal syndrome problems from too much left button clicking.

The things I would like on the favorites bar are
a) ability to have a shortcut to a folder of my choice.
b) to relocate it (favorites bar left, bottom, right side)

The worst Gnome3 feature is the upper left corner. Accidentally going there with the mouse (because the File menu command for most software is also in the left corner causes all the windows to lose focus, until I go back there again, or choose my window again. With a true mouse, this happens infrequently, but with a touch pad and sliding of fingers, it happens too often.

In another area, Instead of zero seconds hover time, it would be great to have 1 second delay, and/or a mouse click to bypass the delay.
I am lucky I do not have Parkinson's disease. I feel sorry for any Gnome user who does have it.

There must be a reason why the list of applications was placed at the bottom of the favorites bar. I have a feeling all the changes for Gnome are to drive us to using XFCE, KDE, Mate, or any other clean interface. (grin)

DBelton
11th October 2012, 04:53 PM
Well, Gnome 3 has already driven quite a few old Gnome users to using another DE like Xfce, etc...

But your problems/issues are with Gnome, not something that Fedora can change. While Fedora might have a little leeway in changing a configuration option or two, for the most part you get stuck with whatever garbage the Gnome team decides to push on the users.

If you wish to be either completely ignored or told your opinions don't matter, you can try filing a bug with Gnome and see if possibly by some miracle you can get things changed.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/

If you do decide to file a bug with Gnome, I sure hope that you have much better results than I and numerous others have had in the past.

cyborg
11th October 2012, 05:35 PM
Well, Gnome 3 has already driven quite a few old Gnome users to using another DE like Xfce, etc...

But your problems/issues are with Gnome, not something that Fedora can change. While Fedora might have a little leeway in changing a configuration option or two, for the most part you get stuck with whatever garbage the Gnome team decides to push on the users.

If you wish to be either completely ignored or told your opinions don't matter, you can try filing a bug with Gnome and see if possibly by some miracle you can get things changed.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/

If you do decide to file a bug with Gnome, I sure hope that you have much better results than I and numerous others have had in the past.

I thought you could still use Gnome 2 if you install it manually.

DBelton
11th October 2012, 06:55 PM
There would probably be big problems trying to install Gnome 2 manually since there have been a lot of changes to the libs since Gnome 2 was last updated.

But, yes, you could pretty much install anything manually you wish to, if you want to go through the trouble to get things to work. Just because an application is no longer being updated or maintained doesn't mean that suddenly it can't be used.

smr54
11th October 2012, 07:27 PM
If you wish to be either completely ignored or told your opinions don't matter, you can try filing a bug with Gnome and see if possibly by some miracle you can get things changed.


Insert marriage joke here.

lutor
13th October 2012, 12:24 PM
hello
fedora 18 TC3 only installs on the hard drive clean. I tried installing rpm fusion free and non free, google chrome says it is not possible to install because they are not signed. in console i cant connect as root and says the password is wrong.

expectATIon
13th October 2012, 04:34 PM
hello
fedora 18 TC3 only installs on the hard drive clean. I tried installing rpm fusion free and non free, google chrome says it is not possible to install because they are not signed. in console i cant connect as root and says the password is wrong.

To install RPM Fusion free & non free run the following in a terminal

sudo yum localinstall --nogpgcheck http://download1.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/rpmfusion-free-release-branched.noarch.rpm http://download1.rpmfusion.org/nonfree/fedora/rpmfusion-nonfree-release-branched.noarch.rpm

To install Google Talk or Chrome or Flash download the RPMs to a folder on your system. I chose Downloads and then run the following in a terminal to install the RPM. Example below is for Google Talk


cd Downloads
sudo yum localinstall --nogpgcheck google-talkplugin_current_x86_64.rpm

lutor
15th October 2012, 04:01 PM
hello
I installed cinnamon but after reboot my monitor was just dark gray and after waiting a few minutes continued in the same beautiful. I've tried the cinnamon and the Mate and the same happens to me. the gnome's okay.

AdamW
16th October 2012, 03:53 AM
After comparing the GUI changes with F18, against F17, I ask myself why the Show all icons is on the favorites bar. Is it to require me to do an extra click of the mouse. I already have carpal syndrome problems from too much left button clicking.

The things I would like on the favorites bar are
a) ability to have a shortcut to a folder of my choice.
b) to relocate it (favorites bar left, bottom, right side)

The worst Gnome3 feature is the upper left corner. Accidentally going there with the mouse (because the File menu command for most software is also in the left corner causes all the windows to lose focus, until I go back there again, or choose my window again. With a true mouse, this happens infrequently, but with a touch pad and sliding of fingers, it happens too often.

In another area, Instead of zero seconds hover time, it would be great to have 1 second delay, and/or a mouse click to bypass the delay.
I am lucky I do not have Parkinson's disease. I feel sorry for any Gnome user who does have it.

There must be a reason why the list of applications was placed at the bottom of the favorites bar. I have a feeling all the changes for Gnome are to drive us to using XFCE, KDE, Mate, or any other clean interface. (grin)

GNOME is pretty focused on accessibility - check out the accessibility menu. So I would expect they'd consider your case of accidentally triggering the overview sympathetically, and might add an accessibility setting of some kind for it (I can't find one, so I'm assuming there isn't one already) - perhaps a way to set a delay for the overview trigger, so it only happens if you leave the cursor there for a second or two. File a bug report for it, as dbelton suggested.

I'm assuming you know already that when you *do* want to trigger the overview you can do it just by hitting the Super (start) key - no need to mouse to top left all the damn time.

hadrons123
17th October 2012, 02:48 AM
Another week delay.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule

mkruger
17th October 2012, 03:59 AM
While F18 brings lots of new and exciting things, the feature I will most look forward to is automated bug reporting. This will really help improve the quality of Fedora. After all, nothing worse than lots of choices for bug ridden applications. In this regards, commercial (and even most free) Win32 software really gives Linux a black eye.

nonamedotc
17th October 2012, 01:41 PM
Well, it looks like I will reinstalling Fedora on my main laptop during Christmas break instead of during the busy end of the semester! ha ha! :D

AdamW
17th October 2012, 10:39 PM
mkruger: we already have automated bug reporting in the last few Fedora releases, it's getting some improvements for F18, but it's already there. Whenever an app crashes you should get a notification from something called 'abrt', which can walk you through filing a bug report for the crash.

mkruger
18th October 2012, 12:36 AM
Well.....walking through that bug reporting process has never been very intuitive for me. In fact I don't think I have ever been able to successuflly submit a bug report. So, I am hoping the process becomes easier.

Demz3
18th October 2012, 12:41 AM
if you dont wanna use ABRT an submit a bug that way, just go to redhat bugzilla website an do it that way, aint that hard :) plus i dont think ABRT is the best , dunno what its like now since i aint used it since my days of using F16

DBelton
18th October 2012, 01:52 AM
I usually keep abrt running when I am trying out pre-release versions, but when I do my final installs on my main machines, I disable all of the abrt stuff.

AdamW
18th October 2012, 11:12 PM
yeah, abrt's UI was always pretty terrible. it's changed a lot for f18; it's a lot more streamlined now. still not great, but better. it has almost no options any more in the walk-through wizard.

errorxp
27th October 2012, 06:06 PM
Anaconda is still laughable in TC6 beta, especially partition setup.

stevea
27th October 2012, 06:45 PM
News flash - users complain about changes - details on December 11th.

If you didn't want a bumpy ride, why did you choose Fedora ?

fibster
27th October 2012, 08:02 PM
Anaconda is still laughable in TC6 beta, especially partition setup.

This is why we are testing, thank you for your insightful and helpful solution. fedora is pretty a much a well orchestrated rolling version, that puts to shame all other rolling releases. I applaud the work done by the team.

errorxp
27th October 2012, 08:42 PM
users complain about changes

Yeah, especially when the change is made for the sake of change.


If you didn't want a bumpy ride, why did you choose Fedora ?
It wasn't all that bumpy when it started for me a way back.

stevea
27th October 2012, 09:05 PM
Yeah, especially when the change is made for the sake of change.

That uninformed opinion and $4 will get you a Starbucks.

There are lots of good reasons to replace disk druid and other parts of anoconda. There are plenty of good reasons to only update packages when the userspace is down/limited. Your inability to appreciate the motivation for these and other changes is not evidence of "change [] made for the sake of change".


It wasn't all that bumpy when it started for me a way back.

So you didn't bother to read the forum history, nor the outline of the distro goals, and you ignored recent issues like systemd and gnome3 ??? Maybe you should sue to get your money back.

No - there are always outstanding issues w/ fedora, and they often happen as revs change, and yes some ppl skip some of the problems by luck or limited system hardware. This should be the moment of errorxp's awakening.

DBelton
28th October 2012, 02:22 AM
This is why we are testing, thank you for your insightful and helpful solution. fedora is pretty a much a well orchestrated rolling version, that puts to shame all other rolling releases. I applaud the work done by the team.

Yea, especially considering that Fedora isn't a rolling release distro, it's more of a fixed release :D

Demz3
7th November 2012, 01:11 AM
expect a 2 week delay if not 1 when they have the GO/NO-GO meeting

so inb other words, expect F18 to be released early 2013

Demz3
7th November 2012, 10:06 PM
Today at FESCo meeting [1] it was decided to slip Fedora 18
Beta release by *two* weeks to give the Installer team,
the new upgrade tool and Secure Boot time to finish and
polish these features to meet our release quality standards.

As a result, Fedora 18 Beta will be pushed out by two weeks,
the development is re-opened, with tentative Change Deadline
on Nov 13. Fedora 18 Beta release is now Nov 27. Anyone with
objections to enter Beta freeze on Nov 13 can file a ticket
with FESCo on the Nov 12/13 and it will be discussed in the
ticket or on special meeting.

Final Change deadline is rescheduled to Dec 18 with final
Fedora 18 release on 2013 Jan 08 [2].

The Go/No-Go meeting on Thursday, Nov 08 is cancelled.

Please, work on your blocker bugs and help testing the
Fedora 18, so we will be able to release in the beginning
of January.

[1] http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2012-11-07/fesco.2012-11-07-18.00.log.html
[2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule

Thanks
Jaroslav http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-November/173675.html an what did i say about 2 weeks, now expect a early 2013 release

stevea
7th November 2012, 11:17 PM
final Fedora 18 release on 2013 Jan 08 [2].
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule

IMO thats a good outcome if it works out.

Demz3
7th November 2012, 11:22 PM
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule

IMO thats a good outcome if it works out.

its not to bad, assuming there wont be anymore slips in the next GO/NO-GO meeting.

lsatenstein
8th November 2012, 03:09 AM
I was just looking at this <cough> feature. Offline Updates using systemd and PackageKit (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates)

Is it now going to be mandatory to boot into the equivalent of single user mode in order to update packages? If so I am going to be deeply pissed. If Solaris admins hate Linux why don't they just use Solaris rather than continuously forcing Linux to be Solaris. Updates take up to an hour as it is, due to rebuilding meta data. If the machine has to be off line for an hour for a trivial update we have a real problem.

++++++++
If the update is not touching the kernel or associated libraries related files, or the GUI directly, why the single mode. Yum should be smart enough to review the packages that it downloads before it does the installation, and if single mode is required, then yum should initiate it. The way I see it happening is as it happens in Windows. You set everything up and ask to reboot.
On the way to reboot, half the setup is completed, and after reboot, the remainder is executed.
This operation keeps the system from corruption

AdamW
8th November 2012, 08:38 AM
That's more or less how offline updates will work, yes. It caches the update packages in the background and when you hit 'install updates and reboot' it, well, installs updates and reboots.

I'm sure I probably replied to jvillain already, but yum is still available if you want to update online. (which to be honest, I still do and always have.)

lsatenstein
10th November 2012, 01:01 AM
In doing software installations with Fedora 18, I noted that it stacked up the updates to the point where I would open the window to shutdown, and I noted the Install updates command.
If you refuse, the updates are held.
If you do a sudo poweroff command, you will not see the request to install the updates.

nonamedotc
10th November 2012, 02:22 AM
Yeah - what you are describing would be the "offline updates feature" which in my opinion is a "windows feature". :D

lsatenstein
18th November 2012, 03:11 PM
I was just looking at this <cough> feature. Offline Updates using systemd and PackageKit (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates)

Is it now going to be mandatory to boot into the equivalent of single user mode in order to update packages? If so I am going to be deeply pissed. If Solaris admins hate Linux why don't they just use Solaris rather than continuously forcing Linux to be Solaris. Updates take up to an hour as it is, due to rebuilding meta data. If the machine has to be off line for an hour for a trivial update we have a real problem.
Note that this feature does not prevent you from using yum and other commandline tools to install updates whenever you want to. We also differentiate updates of 'OS components' (which we want to do in this offline fashion) from application updates and installations, which should still be possible from the UI without restarting the system.

The differentiation between 'OS components' and applications is necessarily a heuristic, since Fedora only knows about packages. The initial heuristic is that a package is considered an application if it installs a desktop file that is shown in the menus. This is not perfect and can be refined when additional metadata becomes available.

Also note that this feature is about implementing offline updates for GNOME. Other spins are not affected, although they could choose to use the same systemd and PackageKit infrastructure, and provide a similar experience.

lsatenstein
27th December 2012, 07:54 PM
I was just looking at this <cough> feature. Offline Updates using systemd and PackageKit (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OfflineSystemUpdates)

Is it now going to be mandatory to boot into the equivalent of single user mode in order to update packages? If so I am going to be deeply pissed. If Solaris admins hate Linux why don't they just use Solaris rather than continuously forcing Linux to be Solaris. Updates take up to an hour as it is, due to rebuilding meta data. If the machine has to be off line for an hour for a trivial update we have a real problem.

===
The updates will work in a safe way. If you have updates that do not touch the kernel or bash, or anything critical to the operating system, things will work as before.

If you install some new update for kernel libraries or have updates to something that affects Linux, on your shutdown updates will installed.

Of course, if your version of Fedora is not broken, you may forego updates for as long as you want.

DBelton
28th December 2012, 02:20 AM
The offline updates was the very first thing I zapped when I installed F18. I want to be able to control when and why updates are downloaded and installed, not let that POS PackageKit decide for me :D

Actually, the entire PackageKit was the very first thing to go, which took with it the crappy offline updates :lol:

lsatenstein
29th December 2012, 07:20 AM
Seriously, not having to reboot for updates is one of my favorite things about Linux.

For all updates, except kernel or kernel related, you just apply them. The kernel ones will be applied when you signal shutdown.

You cannot update a kernel's dynamic libraries, when the new libraries have a different (new or eliminated) functionality, but the same physical name on disk. Doing so would crash the system.

ryanvade
2nd January 2013, 07:25 AM
Why isn't 18 using kernel 3.7?

DBelton
2nd January 2013, 07:41 AM
Don't know. 3.7.1 is the latest stable kernel. I am guessing it will probably be in F18 before too long.

Demz3
2nd January 2013, 09:01 AM
it'll be in F18 an 17 when F18 goes final, it cant now as it would hold back upgrading via FedUp or Yum

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-December/175657.html

Demz3
4th January 2013, 12:08 AM
Today at Go/No-Go meeting it was decided to slip Fedora 18
release by one week due to unresolved blocker bugs [1]. See
the meeting minutes [2] for more details.

As a result, Fedora 18 will be pushed out by one week with final
release on 2013-01-15. Check current schedule [3].

The next Go/No-Go meeting is on Wednesday, Jan 09. Time will
be announced on Monday.

Please, help us with resolving currently accepted blocker bugs
and review proposed bugs reported to your components.

Thanks
Jaroslav

[1] http://qa.fedoraproject.org/blockerbugs/milestone/18/final/buglist
[2] http://bit.ly/VzpMXH
[3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-January/175848.html

Kakao
4th January 2013, 12:24 PM
They should just skip 18 and immediately start 19 at the "Planning & Development Begins" stage. I'm serious. I know it is just one more week. But after a 70 days delay and still many blockers including the critical Anaconda it will just harm the project's reputation.

bigflopper2
4th January 2013, 08:20 PM
They should just skip 18 and immediately start 19 at the "Planning & Development Begins" stage. I'm serious. I know it is just one more week. But with after a 70 days delay and still many blockers including the critical Anaconda it will just harm the project's reputation.

Agree.

Another interesting point, is F18 supported till dec 2013 (because they want to keep the former release-model/ dates, may and nov) or feb 2014...this would be a 13 months support as always.

DBelton
4th January 2013, 09:29 PM
Well, their support period really isn't 13 months. It is pretty much the 2 latest releases are supported, and the next oldest gets dropped 1 month after the latest release.

If it were a 13 month support period, then F16 would have already been dropped before F18 was released since it's already been 13 months since it was released.

Demz3
9th January 2013, 10:56 PM
At the Fedora 18 Go/No-Go Meeting that just occurred, it was
agreed to Go for the Fedora 18. The release is planned for
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 [1]. See meeting minutes [2].

It was agreed that RC3 is GOLD for now, with possibility to
raise the status of RC4 to be the final release based on
outcome of supplemental testing due to the late acceptance of
bug #810040 [3].

The final call will happen tomorrow, Thursday, January 10 at
16:00 UTC (11 AM EST, 8 AM PST, 17:00 CET), #fedora-meeting-2.

Please help Fedora QA with supplemental testing - the RC2/RC3
test results will be pulled into the RC4 test matrices except
the test cases required for RC4 re-verification. An email with
more details will follow on Test list.

Our lovely Spherical Cow would like to thank you everyone for
that hard and sometimes dirty work that lead to it's release.

Moooooooo!

Jaroslav

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule
[2] http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2013-01-09/f18_final_gono-go_meeting.2013-01-09-19.00.html
[3] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=810040 http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-January/176101.html

AdamW
10th January 2013, 04:19 AM
right, fedora release lifetime is officially "till N+2 plus one month". so F18's support lifetime may be shorter than 13 months, potentially.

Demz3
10th January 2013, 04:35 AM
right, fedora release lifetime is officially "till N+2 plus one month". so F18's support lifetime may be shorter than 13 months, potentially.

thats kinda understandable since i think someone mentioned F19 release was gonna try for a 4 month one?

AdamW
10th January 2013, 02:41 PM
basically, yeah, the current plan is to do a short f19 cycle to get back on our historic track.

Dan
10th January 2013, 03:20 PM
Morning, Adam.

Any further word from Rahul on E17?

AdamW
10th January 2013, 09:06 PM
There was a post on the devel@ list about it recently. I think he said it's in now - not sure which releases it's in, but I think the packages have all been approved. Check devel@ archives.

nonamedotc
10th January 2013, 09:19 PM
Morning, Adam.

Any further word from Rahul on E17?

Dan, I think you are looking at this - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=891295

[Was bored and so went and searched bugzilla.]

PiElle
10th January 2013, 10:03 PM
Will be possible, in the final release, to install grub2 on a partition instead of the MBR? :confused:

nonamedotc
10th January 2013, 11:57 PM
Will be possible, in the final release, to install grub2 on a partition instead of the MBR? :confused:

No. That will not be possible. But, as Adam has mentioned before, it is possible to choose not install a bootloader.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=872826

PiElle
11th January 2013, 12:29 AM
No. That will not be possible. But, as Adam has mentioned before, it is possible to choose not install a bootloader.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=872826

Very interesting. Thanks.
Anyway, I have always let Anaconda install grub on a partition (not on the MBR) and never had a problem ...

lsatenstein
11th January 2013, 01:33 AM
Fedora18 Feature List (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/FeatureList)

Fedora18 Schedule (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/18/Schedule) No Schedule as of yet

FAQ: Do I Need To Reinstall Fedora18 Final Release When its Out?

Answer: No. Just Keep Your System Up To Date on a Daily Basis And it Will Switch Automatically to The Final Release


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewInstallerUI


If currently, everything works correctly for you, (virtual console, gnome, kde, etc), then you have nothing to do.

On the other hand, if you have some issues with some programs, then continue until the 15th when the F18 version will be released, and the updates will be open completely
If there is still a problem, use the latest DVD image that will be available for download on that date.