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fewt
19th December 2010, 11:56 PM
The stable, easy to use Linux distribution for your PC.

Fuduntu is a Fedora Remix which brings with it a wonderful GUI, and many improvements to make your portable workstation fast and efficient while enjoying battery life that I consider to be best in class.

Fuduntu looks fantastic! Through a combination of open source technology and usability excellence, Fuduntu 14.7 shines.

http://i.imgur.com/VtPDAl.jpg

An example of a few of the tweaks from Fuduntu:


Linux Kernel 2.6.37
CGroups shell tweak
Deadline IO scheduler
/tmp and /var/log moved to RAM disk
Swappiness reduced to 10
Jupiter for power savings
Gnome default desktop tweaks
Misc power and performance tweaks



Adobe Flash
Fluendo MP3 Codec
Likewise Open
Infinality Freetype
Nautilus Elementary
OpenOffice
Thunderbird
GIMP
Jupiter
VIM Enhanced


Fuduntu integrates Nautilus Elementary, and is licensed to redistribute Adobe Flash, and Fluendo MP3 technologies which have been integrated into the distribution!

http://i.imgur.com/kCWn4l.png

http://i.imgur.com/8VeWAl.png

http://i.imgur.com/qsOUkl.png

http://i.imgur.com/WdLU1l.png

Download Fuduntu today - http://www.fuduntu.org/

bob
20th December 2010, 12:31 AM
It would have been best to check with us prior to posting this. I've reviewed and approved the post and wish you well with your new distro. (Not too keen on the name, but that's your choice :p)

fewt
20th December 2010, 12:41 AM
It would have been best to check with us prior to posting this. I've reviewed and approved the post and wish you well with your new distro. (Not too keen on the name, but that's your choice :p)

My appologies, I did not realize that it needed approval. Thank you for allowing it to post. FYI, I edited it and it's disappeared. Please review and re-approve.

Thank you!

leigh123linux
20th December 2010, 12:43 PM
My appologies, I did not realize that it needed approval. Thank you for allowing it to post. FYI, I edited it and it's disappeared. Please review and re-approve.

Thank you!

Done

andrewthomas
26th December 2010, 02:56 PM
(Not too keen on the name, but that's your choice :p)
+1 This name is quite confusing, implying derivation from Ubuntu, not Fedora.

jpollard
26th December 2010, 03:06 PM
Not to mention the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt that it also sounds like
in the first syllable.

pythagorean
26th December 2010, 03:08 PM
comical. Its like if you were in a marketing seminar studying how NOT to launch an operating system.

Its too bad that the netbook is soon to be a thing of the past since most people are going to have cell phones with more functionality and portability than any small laptop... Its a dying product category.

Maybe if Fuduntu were to develop a Fedora remix for tablet devices like the iPad it would have a chance.

Hlingler
26th December 2010, 03:09 PM
Feduntu? Fedoruntu? Fubuntu?

:D
V

P.S. @ user=fuduntu: Thanks for your contribution. Please accept this gentle chiding as urgent suggestions to reconsider the name of your spin.

Dan
26th December 2010, 03:27 PM
Ayup. It's all about the marketing. Which is why real estate developers hang names like, "Tranquility Lane" in the "Shady Oaks" subdivision on a sixteen foot wide mud-bog cut through the gelled surface of a slightly radioactive former landfill -- on which they've plopped madly overpriced duplexes tacked together out of reject-grade shredded-wheat OSB and two inch long aluminium staples.

smr54
26th December 2010, 04:17 PM
I've always thought Udora is more euphonious. (I've used both terms, or similar, to describe desktop oriented distributions.)

I have my doubts about the netbook becoming a thing of the past. A few reasons--dinosaurs like myself don't trust cell phone companies--too much of "Because we can," type charges. There was an interesting article I came across recently, about how one would use up their Verizon limit on Verizon's super duper fast network within a week.

Also, we touch typists. Screen size, People who still don't like facebook. And so on.

I think it will be awhile before we're all replaced by the generation of smart phone users.

fewt
26th December 2010, 04:33 PM
LOL @ criticism of the name. :cool:

I don't see any reason to change the name just because a couple of people dislike it. There are distributions with better names for you to use if you don't like Fuduntu. :)

There are a lot of reasons to consider Fuduntu if you look past the name.

Here is information about the latest release:

http://www.fewt.com/2010/12/fuduntu-147-3-fantastic-font-rendering.html

Merry (belated) Christmas everyone!

Draciron
3rd January 2011, 12:50 AM
Interesting idea, flash and other propitiatory formats have become increasingly more difficult to use on Fedora over the last few years. I never did get Flash working in F12 except in Chrome. FF and Konquerer both barfed huge hairballs every time I tried to view a complex flash page. Simple flash pages worked quite fine. Never had that problem with earlier Fedora distros or any other distro for that matter. Each version of Fedora seems that much less friendly to such formats. One of my many gripes.

Which brings me to a few questions.

My biggest gripes about Fedora are.

What are the support lengths on your versions?
No Long term support. I ran FC7 for YEARS on a couple machines. I was still using FC5 on one machine until around 07 or 08. I liked that !!!! I heavily customize my machines and moving to a new distro for me is more work than pit would take me to move to a new home. I mean literally it takes fewer hours to get a machine just the way I like it than it does to pack up all my belongings and load the large truck that it takes to hold them and unpack them. I spend hundreds of man hours installing and configuring software and little of it can be reused after I move up to a new version. I want at least 5 years out of an install unless there is a truly compelling feature I absolutely need. Enhanced support for USB was the last time that happened.

Customization features?
The no root GUI login is an extreme pain. Apparently there's a work around for it that makes Ubuntu's work around seem simple. Still there is a need to run GUI apps as root occasionally. Especially for people like me who despise VI. That's just one of many changes to Fedora over the last few years that make it far more difficult to use rather than easy. My biggest gripe is actually customization. Fedora has become increasingly more difficult to customize. Even simple stuff like getting rid of that Windows imitation log in screen and getting a good Linux startup screen which actually helps you see when a service fails to start or other problems is inordinately difficult to do in Fedora. Most distros it's a simple mouse click or keystroke. The reliability of Yum extender and Kyum is another problem. While they are not Fedora apps, the reliance of Fedora on an imitation Microsoft install package which is as bare on features as Microsoft's useless add/remove apps is a great example of how Fedora has been left behind in the dust. The default GUI Yum and or Apt-Get on most distros are at least usable. The only thing I would touch with the default Fedora add/remove app was to install a real one like Yum extender or Kyum or Gnome-Yum. With Yum extender and Gnome yum apparently no longer maintained and buggy that doesn't leave a whole lot of choice does it?

JACK and other musician essential support?
Choice of audio servers. I'm a musician and Fedora HATES musicians. I know JACK audio was designed to torture distro developers. It is a nightmare to support but unfortunately just about any serious piece of music editing software beyond Audacity needs JACK to run and getting JACK to just install in Fedora has always been a challenge. Getting JACK to work and play well with the default nearly irremovable Fedora sound server even more of a challenge especially using KDE which has it's own issues with JACK. It'd be nice to have a distro that I could actually choose what sound servers I wanted and not have to uninstall a whole bunch of important software breaking packages that are dependent upon them and then reinstall them with support for another sound server or at least versions that don't knock JACK audio out the first time you use them. Didn't use to be such an ordeal. Under RH 6-9 and early Fedora versions I had a choice, at install if I remember correctly so that I didn't come up with a zillion dependency issues if I had to take Pulse audio out for example to make JACK work reliably. Linux is about choice and when you create defaults that are more like you'll use this or else like Fedora has come to do it takes choice away from you. I'd love to create a musicians spin of Fedora but last time I did a bit of research into it the idea was just not practical.

Propitiatory format support?
I'm curious about the mp3 support. While I prefer the ogg format when I trade files or send files to people using non-Linux OS's I usually have to send it as an mp3. I use multiple music players with various playlists and it's crucial to me to have mp3 support in at least 2 or 3 of those players. With your distro Likewise, while Firefox is my main browser I like to use Chrome or Galleon sometimes. The newer versions of Konquerer are actually not so bad and I've long used Opera though less so in recent years. You mention built in flash support but does that exclude flash support in other browsers? I'd LOVE to use Silverlight, Quicktime, etc. Most of these are fairly decently supported under Ubuntu and poorly or completely unsupported in Fedora. What formats do you have repository support for. I can understand not having direct support for them in the distro because of lawsuit happy lawyers. For any good distro though there is an unofficial guide who has good detailed support for propitiatory formats.

Nvidia & Intel video drivers?
These plague Linux and befuddle us.

Legacy support for older Fedora RPMs?
I ask this because I use an Epson scanner which needs propitiatory drivers which are rarely updated. Totally unsupported by SANE well it says supported sort of but in actual use it doesn't work. Last I looked F12 was the most recent Fedora distro supported. There are many other apps. For example I might want to install a developers version of Oracle. Oracle is usually a few years behind on RPM releases. Often I can install them no problem despite being designed for an older distro, at least as long as they use equal or greater than when checking dependency versions.

Got more but I suspect I've worn your eyes out.

jpollard
3rd January 2011, 02:29 AM
Not really.

Fedora is an experimental version. As such, it has very frequent releases
and very frequent passing out of support.

If you want more stability, go with CentOS. The packages are pretty much
the same, but support lasts several years.

smr54
3rd January 2011, 04:03 AM
The only trouble with CentOS is that packages are often very old. There are times when one needs the extra hardware support, and so on. For example, it was only recently that chromium became relatively trivial to install. Calibre, for example, (when installed from the website) required some higher versions of various libraries.

As for the whole customization issue---yes, it's unfortunate and seems to the general trend in Linux distros. On the other hand, as so many of the desktop distributions consider you too stupid to be allowed to log in as root, it's not surprising that they think you're also too stupid to really know what you want.

bob
3rd January 2011, 04:25 AM
Frankly, the support length doesn't bother me in the slightest. If you've got an OS that works with your hardware, then why worry about updates? Sure, there's security, but we're 1% of the total computer users and not a prime target, plus natively a lot more secure than most will ever be. And, if you're updating hardware, it's a simple process to backup and reinstall with a current version. I'm running a 3-yr. old version of Mint on a public access computer and don't bother to update a thing. Still working, and worry-free.

What might concern me a bit is the personal support that you and your family/friends will be willing to put into Fununtu. Most of these die pretty quickly with changing life styles and lack of interest or just having the project get far bigger and more expensive than you've ever imagined. But, as I previously mentioned, if it's working, why worry if the updates dry up?

rclark
3rd January 2011, 04:46 AM
If you've got an OS that works with your hardware, then why worry about updates? +1. I have a Fedora 5 system at work. It is our main data/print server. I haven't worried about updates in years.... Works great. Before that I had a system running on Redhat 7. When a harddrive finally died, I switched to CentOS 5 for that machine....



I have my doubts about the netbook becoming a thing of the past +1.... My wife just got one. A phone should be used as a phone ... in my opinion. Internet on a phone? Naw.... That can wait until I get home... In fact I don't even have a personal cell phone yet..... We do have a trac phone for those times it is nice to have. No monthly bill.... Nice!

As far as the Fudunta, sounds like a nice distro. Hope it works out for you!

smr54
3rd January 2011, 05:11 AM
I should have clarified with my comments about CentOS. I just meant that sometimes, one might need some specific hardware or software support and find it isn't in CentOS (or something similar) because of the distribution's age. For a business, this is actually a good thing--one doesn't want to upgrade and suddenly find that something stopped working because there is now a one line syntax difference in the config file.

At home, I run CentOS 5.x, which I'll upgrade to 6.x when it comes out--upgrade as in back up the necessary things and do a fresh install. The only program, at present, where I have to boot up a VM to use a newer distribution is calibre, an ebook reader.

So, if one doesn't have the need for the latest version, especially if running something as a server, CentOS is really a very good choice, and I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't.

Mariusz W
3rd January 2011, 06:57 AM
LOL @ criticism of the name. :cool:

I don't see any reason to change the name just because a couple of people dislike it. There are distributions with better names for you to use if you don't like Fuduntu. :)

There are a lot of reasons to consider Fuduntu if you look past the name.[/url]

Well, with this kind of attitude i don't see the future of your distro in too rosy colors. A few remarks of this kind may tell more about the 'merits' of your effort and how serious person is its author than you probably imagine. As a result, without even realizing that, you will be driving away from your project lots of (reasonable) people.

May I add that I consider the name you chose to be very unfortunate too. So please add me to "a couple of people" who "dislike it".

smr54
3rd January 2011, 01:03 PM
I'm going to very respectfully disagree with Mariuz here. I don't think that necessarily shows a bad attitude--when one is doing something, there are always people who will find something wrong with it, and probably, the thing to do is to consider what they say, then make your own decision.

Even if a few--or several--folks disagree, that particular thing is opinion. What will be more important, if you are able to put a lot of time into it, and get some help, will be how you react to bugs and such. Generally, smaller distros are more responsive to users (as say there might be 10 bugs caught by people who know how to report bugs, vs. 300 bugs sent in with things like X doesn't work.)

Mariusz W
3rd January 2011, 03:08 PM
I'm going to very respectfully disagree with Mariuz here. I don't think that necessarily shows a bad attitude--when one is doing something, there are always people who will find something wrong with it, and probably, the thing to do is to consider what they say, then make your own decision.

Even if a few--or several--folks disagree, that particular thing is opinion. What will be more important, if you are able to put a lot of time into it, and get some help, will be how you react to bugs and such. Generally, smaller distros are more responsive to users (as say there might be 10 bugs caught by people who know how to report bugs, vs. 300 bugs sent in with things like X doesn't work.)

I must clear the misunderstanding that regretfully crept in.

My comment was directed at the manner in which the creator of Fuduntu responded to reasonable criticisms politely expressed by several members of the Fedora Forum, not at his decisions that caused the criticisms.

"Laughing Out Loud in your face" and saying "I don't care" in such circumstances is a fair indication of immaturity and, well, lack of elementary manners. It doesn't instill trust in what he is undertaking.

pythagorean
3rd January 2011, 03:19 PM
Well the distrowatch review just about says it all...

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20101129#feature

There are no aspects of the distro that come from Ubuntu, it is basically indistinguishable from Fedora 14 except for the addion of a couple of packages and branding, and the iso weighs in at a whopping 900MB. Basically, this distro represents everything wrong with Linux distros in that it cannibalizes an already perfectly good distro and changes the branding in a shameless attempt to make some easy money off already established products.

slyfly
3rd January 2011, 03:25 PM
Your distro name is confusing. I thought it fedora overlay on ubuntu.

Try Wedora, Workstation Fedora.

fewt
3rd January 2011, 03:43 PM
Frankly, the support length doesn't bother me in the slightest. If you've got an OS that works with your hardware, then why worry about updates? Sure, there's security, but we're 1% of the total computer users and not a prime target, plus natively a lot more secure than most will ever be. And, if you're updating hardware, it's a simple process to backup and reinstall with a current version. I'm running a 3-yr. old version of Mint on a public access computer and don't bother to update a thing. Still working, and worry-free.

What might concern me a bit is the personal support that you and your family/friends will be willing to put into Fununtu. Most of these die pretty quickly with changing life styles and lack of interest or just having the project get far bigger and more expensive than you've ever imagined. But, as I previously mentioned, if it's working, why worry if the updates dry up?

Fuduntu will get updates as long as Fedora 14 is supported. I am thinking through the possibility of basing a "professional" version on RHEL sources so that version would be supported for the number of years that RHEL is supported. It's not too challenging to do that. I don't see Fuduntu dying any time soon since I use it on almost everything. It would be fantastic though if others came on board to help build the distribution in-case something did happen that caused me to be unable to work on it for any length of time since Fuduntu is currently a team of "me". Expenses could become a concern, especially when I start getting to the point where I need a build farm, but if people start to support the project with donations and / or purchasing from the Fuduntu store that hopefully won't be a problem. I have set Fuduntu up to minimize costs, except for the cost of my time to develop it, and costs for hardware for building and testing. I am considering throwing adsense up on the site, but I haven't decided on that yet.

I don't think that it would die due to lack of interest.

---------- Post added at 08:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------


Well the distrowatch review just about says it all...

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20101129#feature

There are no aspects of the distro that come from Ubuntu, it is basically indistinguishable from Fedora 14 except for the addion of a couple of packages and branding, and the iso weighs in at a whopping 900MB. Basically, this distro represents everything wrong with Linux distros in that it cannibalizes an already perfectly good distro and changes the branding in a shameless attempt to make some easy money off already established products.

Jesse and I spoke about that a few weeks ago and he is going to review a later version early this year. He reviewed the very first release which of course didn't represent the distribution well.

Disregard that review, it's not representative of Fuduntu today.

View the website and see the differences for yourself: http://www.fuduntu.org/

There are a lot of aspects taken from Ubuntu even if they are indirect. The freetype changes, nautilus elementary, desktop beautification, and others. The accusation of "making easy money" is silly and pathetic. I have put more than 100 hours into Fuduntu, and it has received *1* donation of $5. Building Fuduntu has been anything but easy, and I challenge you to do better.

---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------


Well, with this kind of attitude i don't see the future of your distro in too rosy colors. A few remarks of this kind may tell more about the 'merits' of your effort and how serious person is its author than you probably imagine. As a result, without even realizing that, you will be driving away from your project lots of (reasonable) people.

May I add that I consider the name you chose to be very unfortunate too. So please add me to "a couple of people" who "dislike it".

What attitude? Stating that I won't change the name because you don't like it does not show any attitude good bad or indifferent.

I'm sorry you don't like the name, but if you believe that it is petty and immature that it I don't jump through hoops to make you feel better about Fuduntu by changing the name to suit you and a few others, just use Fedora instead.

fewt
3rd January 2011, 04:05 PM
Interesting idea, flash and other propitiatory formats have become increasingly more difficult to use on Fedora over the last few years. I never did get Flash working in F12 except in Chrome. FF and Konquerer both barfed huge hairballs every time I tried to view a complex flash page. Simple flash pages worked quite fine. Never had that problem with earlier Fedora distros or any other distro for that matter. Each version of Fedora seems that much less friendly to such formats. One of my many gripes.


I agree, it is pretty easy to build the integrations but users shouldn't have to think about these things. This is why I applied for distribution licenses. It should "just work".



Which brings me to a few questions.

My biggest gripes about Fedora are.

What are the support lengths on your versions?
No Long term support. I ran FC7 for YEARS on a couple machines. I was still using FC5 on one machine until around 07 or 08. I liked that !!!! I heavily customize my machines and moving to a new distro for me is more work than pit would take me to move to a new home. I mean literally it takes fewer hours to get a machine just the way I like it than it does to pack up all my belongings and load the large truck that it takes to hold them and unpack them. I spend hundreds of man hours installing and configuring software and little of it can be reused after I move up to a new version. I want at least 5 years out of an install unless there is a truly compelling feature I absolutely need. Enhanced support for USB was the last time that happened.


The support length will follow Fedora 14, as it receives updates from this release. I am investigating building a second version of Fuduntu using RHEL sources which would be supported for the length that RHEL 6 is supported.



Customization features?
The no root GUI login is an extreme pain. Apparently there's a work around for it that makes Ubuntu's work around seem simple. Still there is a need to run GUI apps as root occasionally. Especially for people like me who despise VI. That's just one of many changes to Fedora over the last few years that make it far more difficult to use rather than easy. My biggest gripe is actually customization. Fedora has become increasingly more difficult to customize. Even simple stuff like getting rid of that Windows imitation log in screen and getting a good Linux startup screen which actually helps you see when a service fails to start or other problems is inordinately difficult to do in Fedora. Most distros it's a simple mouse click or keystroke. The reliability of Yum extender and Kyum is another problem. While they are not Fedora apps, the reliance of Fedora on an imitation Microsoft install package which is as bare on features as Microsoft's useless add/remove apps is a great example of how Fedora has been left behind in the dust. The default GUI Yum and or Apt-Get on most distros are at least usable. The only thing I would touch with the default Fedora add/remove app was to install a real one like Yum extender or Kyum or Gnome-Yum. With Yum extender and Gnome yum apparently no longer maintained and buggy that doesn't leave a whole lot of choice does it?


I don't see any value in running as root, so I won't be changing this. I've been looking at switching to another login manager, but that's not something high on my list of things to do since the current GDM works and is stable.



JACK and other musician essential support?
Choice of audio servers. I'm a musician and Fedora HATES musicians. I know JACK audio was designed to torture distro developers. It is a nightmare to support but unfortunately just about any serious piece of music editing software beyond Audacity needs JACK to run and getting JACK to just install in Fedora has always been a challenge. Getting JACK to work and play well with the default nearly irremovable Fedora sound server even more of a challenge especially using KDE which has it's own issues with JACK. It'd be nice to have a distro that I could actually choose what sound servers I wanted and not have to uninstall a whole bunch of important software breaking packages that are dependent upon them and then reinstall them with support for another sound server or at least versions that don't knock JACK audio out the first time you use them. Didn't use to be such an ordeal. Under RH 6-9 and early Fedora versions I had a choice, at install if I remember correctly so that I didn't come up with a zillion dependency issues if I had to take Pulse audio out for example to make JACK work reliably. Linux is about choice and when you create defaults that are more like you'll use this or else like Fedora has come to do it takes choice away from you. I'd love to create a musicians spin of Fedora but last time I did a bit of research into it the idea was just not practical.


I haven't done anything with JACK, so I have no exposure to it. What's the level of difficulty making it work with Fedora 14 or Fuduntu? I can take things that would make it easier and integrate them into the distribution as long as it doesn't break anything else.



Propitiatory format support?
I'm curious about the mp3 support. While I prefer the ogg format when I trade files or send files to people using non-Linux OS's I usually have to send it as an mp3. I use multiple music players with various playlists and it's crucial to me to have mp3 support in at least 2 or 3 of those players. With your distro Likewise, while Firefox is my main browser I like to use Chrome or Galleon sometimes. The newer versions of Konquerer are actually not so bad and I've long used Opera though less so in recent years. You mention built in flash support but does that exclude flash support in other browsers? I'd LOVE to use Silverlight, Quicktime, etc. Most of these are fairly decently supported under Ubuntu and poorly or completely unsupported in Fedora. What formats do you have repository support for. I can understand not having direct support for them in the distro because of lawsuit happy lawyers. For any good distro though there is an unofficial guide who has good detailed support for propitiatory formats.


Moonlight should be installable, and the latest version of Fuduntu pulls in VLC which should give some level of support for quicktime. :D



Nvidia & Intel video drivers?
These plague Linux and befuddle us.


There is an NVidia how-to in the Fuduntu forum, and I have heard the ATI driver works too. I'm thinking through the process of packaging the binary drivers with DKMS but that's pretty far off.



Legacy support for older Fedora RPMs?
I ask this because I use an Epson scanner which needs propitiatory drivers which are rarely updated. Totally unsupported by SANE well it says supported sort of but in actual use it doesn't work. Last I looked F12 was the most recent Fedora distro supported. There are many other apps. For example I might want to install a developers version of Oracle. Oracle is usually a few years behind on RPM releases. Often I can install them no problem despite being designed for an older distro, at least as long as they use equal or greater than when checking dependency versions.


Fedora's compat packages are EXCELLENT. Are you having issues with them?



Got more but I suspect I've worn your eyes out.

:D

---------- Post added at 09:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------


I must clear the misunderstanding that regretfully crept in.

My comment was directed at the manner in which the creator of Fuduntu responded to reasonable criticisms politely expressed by several members of the Fedora Forum, not at his decisions that caused the criticisms.

"Laughing Out Loud in your face" and saying "I don't care" in such circumstances is a fair indication of immaturity and, well, lack of elementary manners. It doesn't instill trust in what he is undertaking.

Laughing out loud means that I think that the criticism is funny. You shouldn't make assumptions.


The name is a pun, intended to be fun, and funny, while implying that the distribution fits in-between Fedora and Ubuntu. The fun uses of the name mean that it is successful, so go ahead, have fun with it!

- http://www.fuduntu.org

leigh123linux
3rd January 2011, 04:09 PM
I agree, it is pretty easy to build the integrations but users shouldn't have to think about these things. This is why I applied for distribution licenses. It should "just work".



The support length will follow Fedora 14, as it receives updates from this release. I am investigating building a second version of Fuduntu using RHEL sources which would be supported for the length that RHEL 6 is supported.



I don't see any value in running as root, so I won't be changing this. I've been looking at switching to another login manager, but that's not something high on my list of things to do since the current GDM works and is stable.



I haven't done anything with JACK, so I have no exposure to it. What's the level of difficulty making it work with Fedora 14 or Fuduntu? I can take things that would make it easier and integrate them into the distribution as long as it doesn't break anything else.



Moonlight should be installable, and the latest version of Fuduntu pulls in VLC which should give some level of support for quicktime. :D



There is an NVidia how-to in the Fuduntu forum, and I have heard the ATI driver works too. I'm thinking through the process of packaging the binary drivers with DKMS but that's pretty far off.



Fedora's compat packages are EXCELLENT. Are you having issues with them?



:D

---------- Post added at 09:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 AM ----------



Laughing out loud means that I think that the criticism is funny. You shouldn't make assumptions.



- http://www.fuduntu.org


The guide is unsafe (because it overwrites system files) and needs redoing every kernel/xorg server update . :(

fewt
3rd January 2011, 04:14 PM
I'm going to very respectfully disagree with Mariuz here. I don't think that necessarily shows a bad attitude--when one is doing something, there are always people who will find something wrong with it, and probably, the thing to do is to consider what they say, then make your own decision.

+1

Why would I waste time building a distribution for others to use if I had a bad attitude about it?



Even if a few--or several--folks disagree, that particular thing is opinion. What will be more important, if you are able to put a lot of time into it, and get some help, will be how you react to bugs and such. Generally, smaller distros are more responsive to users (as say there might be 10 bugs caught by people who know how to report bugs, vs. 300 bugs sent in with things like X doesn't work.)

+1

Disagree with the name, it's OK. No-one is being forced to install Fuduntu. The distribution will sell itself in it's intended target market. I have already been compiling a list of bugs to fix and have started sending patches upstream. So far, not too many complaints, and no unresolved issues.

I'd say that's a success for a distribution 2 only months old.

---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------


The guide is unsafe (because it overwrites system files) and needs redoing every kernel/xorg server update . http://forums.fedoraforum.org/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif

There is no way to install the nvidia driver without overwriting certain libraries. Even the rpmfusion packages do this, it is a requirement of the NVidia binary driver.

If you can make a list, and tell me which files are being overwritten that shouldn't, any problems can be corrected.

leigh123linux
3rd January 2011, 04:20 PM
+1

Why would I waste time building a distribution for others to use if I had a bad attitude about it?



+1

Disagree with the name, it's OK. No-one is being forced to install Fuduntu. The distribution will sell itself in it's intended target market. I have already been compiling a list of bugs to fix and have started sending patches upstream. So far, not too many complaints, and no unresolved issues.

I'd say that's a success for a distribution 2 only months old.

---------- Post added at 09:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------



There is no way to install the nvidia driver without overwriting certain libraries. Even the rpmfusion packages do this, it is a requirement of the NVidia binary driver.

If you can make a list, and tell me which files are being overwritten that shouldn't, any problems can be corrected.

Calling the guide "rubbish" without providing any further information about how to correct it helps no-one.

No rpmfusion driver or any package provide by them overwrites system file so get your facts right :p

fewt
3rd January 2011, 04:23 PM
No rpmfusion drivers or any package provide by them overwrites system file so get your facts right :p


How do you know, did you spend time disassembling the packages and learning how it works?

I did.

In case you missed it, I said that I was working through a way to make the driver installation better. You are more than welcome to help.

leigh123linux
3rd January 2011, 04:32 PM
How do you know, did you spend time disassembling the packages and learning how it works?

I did.

In case you missed it, I said that I was working through a way to make the driver installation better. You are more than welcome to help.


Are you taking the piss?, I package for Fedora, rpmfusion and myself.

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/leigh123linux




In case you missed it, I said that I was working through a way to make the driver installation better. You are more than welcome to help.

There is no need as the rpmfusion driver is good enough IMO

fewt
3rd January 2011, 04:39 PM
Are you taking the piss?, I package for Fedora, rpmfusion and myself.

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/leigh123linux

I am simply implying that if you think you can do it better then please do so.


There is no need as the rpmfusion driver is good enough IMO

As long as you don't need a custom kernel, I suppose that it is fine. The spec that builds the package is a MESS and it only works because someone rebuilds the package every time there is a kernel release, as it is all static, nothing in the package is dynamic so if the maintainer doesn't follow the kernel release (IE: goes on vacation) the process breaks.

It can be done better.

leigh123linux
3rd January 2011, 04:41 PM
Please get your facts correct about the rpmfusion drivers, They don't overwrite system files.

fewt
3rd January 2011, 04:43 PM
.

I just extracted the xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-libs package (which I hadn't done before) and I see that the libraries themselves are extracted to a different location, and configured by /etc/ld.so.conf.d/nvidia-lib64.conf so I'll credit you that they don't get overwritten.

leigh123linux
3rd January 2011, 04:55 PM
yum or rpm won't install a package that overwrites another file, which is one the basics about package management :rolleyes:


And it is easy to prove


[root@localhost /]# rpm -ql xorg-x11-drv-nvidia xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-libs mesa-libGL |grep libGL.s
/usr/lib64/nvidia/libGL.so.1
/usr/lib64/nvidia/libGL.so.260.19.29
/usr/lib/nvidia/libGL.so.1
/usr/lib/nvidia/libGL.so.260.19.29
/usr/lib64/libGL.so.1
/usr/lib64/libGL.so.1.2
/usr/lib/libGL.so.1
/usr/lib/libGL.so.1.2

fewt
3rd January 2011, 05:02 PM
It is trivial to work around packages not overwriting files, extract the file somewhere else and copy them.

The firefox package does something like this, and other packages that overwrite configuration files like /etc/X11/xorg.conf which happens to be a system file also.

I already credited you for not overwriting the libraries, and admitted my mistake.

:cool:

bob
3rd January 2011, 05:11 PM
Um....guys..... can we do some self-editing here? This type of talk is not what we want to project either from the Forum or from someone who's trying to get a new distro noticed.

fewt
3rd January 2011, 05:13 PM
You could have just listed the files and mentioned /etc/ld.so.conf.d/nvidia-lib64.conf

leigh123linux
3rd January 2011, 05:15 PM
Well that's enough!


Here' s a good method to add the nvidia driver



https://github.com/csmart/kororaa/tree/master/tools

http://kororaa.org/

Adunaic
3rd January 2011, 05:18 PM
At the risk of incurring Bob or someone else's rath for wadding into this; The "Administrator" you are complaining about has helped many of us for many years on this forum, and nit just with his excellent nvidia guides but one many other problems as well.

I think you need to calm down a bit - insulting administrators, and very good ones at that won't help you.

bob
3rd January 2011, 07:36 PM
Okay, thread's back in business. It's been pointed out that my editing has rendered some portions of the previous conversations as gibberish. Well, that's what happens when a non-cook messes with a recipe. So, if anyone wants to re-edit their posts and make sense, the "edit" button's available for you to use.

fewt
3rd January 2011, 07:49 PM
Okay, thread's back in business. It's been pointed out that my editing has rendered some portions of the previous conversations as gibberish. Well, that's what happens when a non-cook messes with a recipe. So, if anyone wants to re-edit their posts and make sense, the "edit" button's available for you to use.

Thanks Bob. Leigh, please accept my apology for my abrasiveness shown toward you in the thread today.

pythagorean
3rd January 2011, 08:40 PM
Half the stuff on my computer would not work without the guides the leigh has written.

fewt
3rd January 2011, 08:44 PM
Half the stuff on my computer would not work without the guides the leigh has written.

I'm sure, but Leigh isn't the topic of the thread. Lets get back on the topic of Fuduntu.

:C

leigh123linux
4th January 2011, 12:24 PM
Thanks Bob. Leigh, please accept my apology for my abrasiveness shown toward you in the thread today.

Accepted :cool:

please accept my apology for my hostile posts yesterday.

fewt
4th January 2011, 02:11 PM
Accepted :cool:

please accept my apology for my hostile posts yesterday.

Accepted. :cool:

Draciron
4th January 2011, 11:50 PM
Support is crucial !!! I can't emphasize that enough if you run anything outside default type OSS apps and even many of those have a nasty habit of requiring the latest greatest lib. You want to convert a WMA to an Ogg good luck doing that with older libs. You want to run Audacity, rip a CD or DVD, install extensions to critters like Blender, Gimp, etc. I prob use 100 apps a day that wouldn't install without the latest libs.

As for security, your behind the times. Linux is less than %1 of retail pre-installed sales by major computer manufacturers. Depending on which web site you base your visits on your talking as high as %12 of visitors (not talking about Linux specific sites) but usually at least %2 to %7 unless it's a Windows or Mac specific web site. The fact is nobody really has a good idea how many desktops are running what OS. Most Linux machines were machines that were purchased with Windows on them and are counted as Windows machines because of that. As such Linux is grossly under reported in terms of usage. The best method used so far is counting hits on popular websites. So with Slashdot you have answer X, Amazon.com will give you another answer while other sites will give you a completely different answer. On fedoraforums.org you probably have a %70 or better Linux user hits. On MIcrosoft.com it's less than %1 most likely. Though I sometimes go visit Microsoft.com on Linux or Mac machines just to irk them :D Fact is quite a few Linux machines don't ever touch the internet. They are file servers for a home office, are devoted to some specific task, used as a print server or database server for a windows developer. So even the website usage is skewed. Then there are the many people using Linux in secured environments. I knew some of the folks at JPL on the Mars rover projects. That was an almost pure Linux shop but half those machines were air gapped from the Net. So too were a few labs at JSC where I worked. Most online appliances I've seen ran Linux for example. Linux is all around us every day. The websites we visit are mostly hosted on Linux machines. Many of the devices we use have Linux on them. The streetlights we drive through are often timed by Linux. The cash register where you buy your coffee and paper. It's everywhere.

As for being a target, look at the arsenal of hacking tools installed default on most Linux distros. There is no better base to use for a hacker than a Linux box and they are hacked fairly quickly if weak passwords, poor security or obsoleted distros are found. All too often when an attacker is identified and traced it turns out to be a Linux box stuck in a corner installed years ago that just works. Maybe a print server or a file server. Whatever the case little to no matinence needed and until the hardware fails it runs just fine. Problem is it gets hacked and is used to spew attacks on the rest of the network.

Linux is secure by design not because we are not targeted. Hackers today at least the kind you have to worry about don't sit there and say what machine shall I hack today? They write bots which scan whole subnets, especially blocks used by major ISPs and companies known for weak security. The bots look for port, OS and if no known vulnerability exists will sometimes attempt a brute force attack. Linux however if is up to date with patches and nothing stupid is done by the end user to open up a major security hole it's hard to hack Linux. Hard but not impossible. Even a well patched machine can be vulnerable at times. Though it's design that makes Linux more secure. Things like good memory segragation, most outward facing apps running in their own no shell user space, not running as Admin, real shared objects, solid permission structures on the disks, etc. These are why Linux machines are both hard to hack and so sought after by hackers who consider hacking a patched Linux box a real feather in their cap.

Windows users get hacked because windows by design is insecure. It's memory segragation is a joke and not even a good one. The lack of garbage collection itself makes it potentially vulnerable to certain hacks. The fact that if you want to actually use a windoze machine you have to be admin alone makes it quite vulnerable. Then the army of Microsoft flaws introduced by IE, Office, and other buggy, no security having make you do it their way software M$ loves to foist on users. Even when they know about a flaw if it's not an easy fix they just patch the entry points as they are found rather than actually fix the design flaw that allows it too happen. Nix by contrast fixes teh core problem rather than just treating the symptoms. Nix has more eyes on and several times in the last five years people have found vulnerabilities just from sifting around in the source code not from any active zero day attack going on or tests in labs. Microsoft often ignores serious reported flaws. On several occasions groups have had to go to the media to get Microsoft to address serious security issues.

Last unpatched system I ran lasted a month before it was hacked. A kernel vulnerability came out, I didn't notice, didn't realize I wasn't getting updates any more because I had auto update configured and they EOL'd that version. Machine started acting funny and I checked the logs and not only had I been hacked they hadn't even bothered to cover it up in the logs. From the damage looked like a script kiddie used some hacking util that the kiddo prob had no idea how it worked and no interest. It's sad that such a low skilled hacker got me but it's my own fault. I was running an unpatched machine. The point is that not only was I hacked, I was hacked by some pre-pubescent Cheeto munching kiddo who couldn't tell you what an interrupt was much less anything about hacking.

I have at least 10,000 RPMs installed on my machine that are not default Fedora. One of those don't get updated it can often cause a chain reaction where hundreds break until the whole system itself is just not usable. I once kept an FC3 install alive six months after it was end of lifed. I just watched security updates closely and used the tarballs to install the updates. However there were so many version issues that got really nasty and sent me into dependency hell. The same dependency hell that was the foundation for distros in the first place. It'd be a full time job for any one person today to try to keep up with installing just essential libs for moderate use. For a power user like me forget it. There is just not enough hours in the day to track down all the dependencies. and keep them up to date enough for everything to work and play well together. We are talking about thousands of Tarballs a month that we take for granted because this group and that group donate their time and energy to maintain this package or that, hundreds of these people doing that makes a distro managable. When they end of life a version all of a sudden you have to try to take on the role of these hundreds of people.

More specifically when it comes to Fedora. What have they changed really aside from breaking stuff? I honestly cannot think of one single feature that's been added since FC7 that I thought was helpful or useful. They've broken lots of things that used to work. Made Fedora look more like Windows while Windows now looks more like Fedora used too LOL. Talk about two cats chasing their own tails. Name anything they've done that made Fedora more user friendly and I'll name 3 that made it less user friendly. I'll also name 3 ways they could have in half the time actually improved Fedora and in some cases Linux in general.

Bob if you've not done updates on that machine in 3 years please run a rootkit check on it. There have been a couple nasty kernel vulnerabilities in the last couple years. As for Mint it's a long term support OS and you should still have support for it. It's one of the distros I am exploring to replace Fedora right now.

Draciron
5th January 2011, 01:13 AM
First off sorry about the double post. This thread has almost spread into two separate topics and the sheer length of the posts would make it difficult for others to quote and reply to specific areas and given that the convo has forked so much I figured a double post was less rude than a gargantuan cover all post.


I agree, it is pretty easy to build the integrations but users shouldn't have to think about these things. This is why I applied for distribution licenses. It should "just work".


Agreed, basic tasks should be like that, whole point of having a distro and most users won't have to tweak much or at all.




The support length will follow Fedora 14, as it receives updates from this release. I am investigating building a second version of Fuduntu using RHEL sources which would be supported for the length that RHEL 6 is supported.


RHEL however lacks support for many newer libs. One of the reasons why CentOS makes such a poor desktop. As a server it's fine because you don't run much in the way of flash bang kinds of things. However for a desktop which is what your distro seems aimed at then your in deep without a paddle without the latest greatest libs. You want to install the Skype Linux client or Chrome or even the latest Flash or Java and you'll start banging up against dependency issues. Linux itself is a fragile chain of dependencies. That is both strength and weakness. It is what makes Linux so lean and efficient but it also means that you break one thing you've probably broken five other things and the five things you broke break another 20 and so on until the system just comes crashing down.

One of the big draws of Linux for me is I tweak my machine to death. I run it the way I want it run. I do things MY way. To accept certain apps and to be limited in hardware and software I can run is not a fair trade off. Nor is having to rebuild everything every couple years. Just makes no sense, %99 of the core Linux hasn't changed, it's just gotten updated libs and security/bug fixes. Having to copy hundreds of configuration files, back up everything on the machine, reinstalls thousands of apps every couple years is too much. That's why I was hoping you were using Fedora only as a starting point, source of drivers and kernel changes, the rest spinning off yourself.



I don't see any value in running as root, so I won't be changing this. I've been looking at switching to another login manager, but that's not something high on my list of things to do since the current GDM works and is stable.


I do it about once a week. Sometimes I'm just being lazy, for example rather than create a new user just so I can use switch user and document how to do something in both KDE and Gnome I'll just log in as root. More commonly I want to edit files in a decent text editor and all of those are X apps. If I'm doing more than a couple lines of editing it's FAR easier to use Kwrite than VI. I can be done with the edits by the time I even reach the lines I need to edit in VI in most cases.

Far too often admin tools break when run from another user. The printer configuration tool for example in F12 seems to refuse to run except when launched as root. At least in root mode. You can run it and look at all the things you could do if it'd accept your root PW but it garbles it. Sure it's a bug that shouldn't be there but I don't honestly care if it's a bug or not. I want to configure a printer and I just launch it from a root shell and away I go. If I'm in one user space and need to access one of the other accounts I have on the machine with a GUI app again I just launch it from a root shell and away I go. Yes there are not many things you cannot do from a command line and I use the term windows frequently. I normally have one open 24/7 with at least 4 different tabs open at any given time and use the term window 100 times a day. That's me, I cut my teeth using OS's like DOS and I'm very comfortable in a command line environment. Still there are many things that are just easier from a GUI and a few that essentially are forced on you now days.

Lets take some examples. You ran / out of space and ./home is on your / partition. Try logging in as anything but root then lol. Editing SELinux policies, network admin functions, mass file moves/deletions of dissimilar files in root owned dirs, doing system level programming, popping a hard drive from another Linux machine to grab selective files off the machine. From the term window it's often easier to copy the whole thing over and then use a GUI app like Krusader to weed out what you didn't want. It's far easier still to pull up Krusader in root mode and copy only what you need especially when the drive you are copying from has more data than you have free space. There are thousands of things that are just a whole lot easier if you can open a Root X app to do. It's maybe once every 3 or 4 years I actually login as root except when I'm being lazy. However those times are absolutely essential for me. Especially recovering data when a hard drive suddenly fails, recovering forensic data from a hacked machine or similar tasks. Try using SUDO to do a mem walk of hacked machine for example.

I can see having a little toggle to flip somewhere in a configuration file to discourage kiddos from running as root but banning it completely is insane and makes the distro totally useless in my opinion. So much so that I am abandoning Fedora over that issue in specific. As much as I am annoyed with the other trash Fedora has tossed in in recent years the no root login is the straw that broke the camels back. Me Fedora and RH before that have been my main distro since the mid 90s. I've had at least one machine running RH or Fedora without fail since about 98. Much of that time RH and or Fedora was the ONLY distro I was running, 13 years I've been using this same distro but the no root login is a deal killer for me. It's THAT big a deal for me. If I have too I'll write my own GDM because it'll be save me time over six months time compared to what I lose by losing root login functionality.




I haven't done anything with JACK, so I have no exposure to it. What's the level of difficulty making it work with Fedora 14 or Fuduntu? I can take things that would make it easier and integrate them into the distribution as long as it doesn't break anything else.


Planet CRM http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/ would be a starting point. They do a decent job of foiling the dependency monster for many important apps but they are no help in getting JACK audio to work and play well. The problem is that JACK is working fine then a system bell goes off or you play an OGG or any other sound that uses certain sound servers and Jack goes silent. Silent as a ghost and remains that way until you log out and log back in. That is if you can get it to make a sound at all. I've been trying since FC3 to get JACK to work and play well with Fedora.

Another issue is how difficult it is to craft a low latency kernel which is important in recording. Mandriva, SUSE and Ubuntu all have good low latency kernels. I've never found one for Fedora. JACKLabs was a great audio distro but it only had one release and died after that. However their kernel tweaks and the base apps installed would be a great blueprint for a musician spin if they could be translated to Fedora or another supported distro.



Moonlight should be installable, and the latest version of Fuduntu pulls in VLC which should give some level of support for quicktime. :D


Coolness, excellent features. If not for the no root log in I'd very likely give your distro a try.



There is an NVidia how-to in the Fuduntu forum, and I have heard the ATI driver works too. I'm thinking through the process of packaging the binary drivers with DKMS but that's pretty far off.


Leigh's guides for dealing with video drivers are the best I've seen. That FAQ has repeatedly saved me hours of frustration in various installs. My opinion is though that it shouldn't be needed. Face it unless your installing on some really old hardware your going to be using one of 3 vid cards. ATI, NVidia or Intel. Not even sure any others are made. All 3 require special treatment and special drivers installed. All 3 are so because of a matter of principle from the Fedora team who have unlike most distros decided that they shall sit in the corner and thumb their noses at the manufacturers for not providing full specs and source then on the other hand they'll provide great support for the drivers. Only catch is you have to take a maimed system, one sometimes completely without video at all and go get those drivers.

Just to add insult to injury the installer GUI works GREAT with that video card. You get nice resolution, purty colors and all is good until you first log in and discover if you have video at all it's 640x480.

Lets get real folks. Yes the manufacturers should do a better job of working with Linux distros. Much of it is our own fault since we are not vocal enough in our requests for support. However to take it out on the users makes no sense. I don't work for Intel or ATI or Nvidia. I didn't do it !!! Why punish me? Instead of making me take crippled system go out and GET that driver why not go get it for me if it's later than the CD has or at least let me limp along with the same driver they use for the installer which actually works and try some autodetection. It's been years since I installed Fedora and didn't have to go through this ordeal. Sometimes having to use a live CD to have enough vid to install the friggin rpms needed so I could have video. I mean half the time I get a pure black screen soon as the GDM takes over. I get to see a wonderful Fedora logo splash screen just to taunt me. After that nothingness. That's just wrong man and it's probably driven away more than half the people who would have become Fedora users over the last few years. Liegh and those who maintain the drivers have enabled us to go on with a broken system but the fact is the system is broke. Fedora is punishing us for sins of others.

Side note, sometimes I can't even drop to a shell, even that's black screen. Depends on the specific card. However text based browsers are really no longer practical in such circumstances and if you don't have another working machine around you have to get to the net somehow and get to leigh's FAQ since it changes from version to version you can't just do what you did with the last version.

Another irritation with Nvidia that drives me nuts is the lost mouse cursor. Fedora defaults to hardware on or off, I forget which. Every time I install if I DO have video of any sort I have to go tinker with xorg.conf and change that if I want to have a mouse cursor on a machine with an Nvidia video driver. Maybe they've fixed it since my xorg.conf shows no sign of having had to do this or maybe this install was a black screen install so there was no point in having a cursor you couldn't see anyway. Don't remember which. I'm being lazy but you can find a dozen threads relating to that in just these forums. It's been a problem for years. If Nvidia is detected might as well by default modify xorg.conf so the poor user has a mouse cursor while they fumble for the needed drivers.

I know Intel and ATI have their own issues. I build all of my own machines and today if your using an AMD chip you can use Nvidia or NVidia or even Nvidia. That's about it. All the MBs with a reasonable price tag come with Nvidia vid cards so I'm kinda focused on Nvidia. It's not like I have much choice in what Vid card I can use.




Fedora's compat packages are EXCELLENT. Are you having issues with them?


Nope, I'm not having any probs with compat. Just hoping that you use it. compat is one of Fedoras strong points in my opinion. Debian bases systems are behind Fedora based distros in backwards compatibility in my experience.

Dan
5th January 2011, 02:07 AM
"There's a great power in words, if you don't hitch too many of them together."









<..:p..>

AlbertP
5th January 2011, 12:30 PM
If you get rid of the driver problems, just use the RPMFusion version of the NVidia driver. It has worked fine for me, never had a black screen or such problems.
With the NVidia own installer, the nvidia-config utility made wrong changes to xorg.conf, made X crash, stopped my webcam from working, and much more issues. Now that I've found RPMFusion I can install NVidia drivers without problems.

I'll maybe try Fedora on a computer with a SiS 741 graphics card, to see if those cards are also having those driver problems. I've had many Windows (XP) driver problems with this type of card, which have ended up in a broken card which had to be replaced by an NVidia on one of the 2 machines with this card.
(SIS still exists as a manufacturer of graphics cards, you are not bound to those 3)

And maybe I'll also try a prehistoric Trident card, but that will not be possible in near future, because that computer is not mine (and it's hard to install Linux without a CD player).

fewt
5th January 2011, 02:28 PM
If you get rid of the driver problems, just use the RPMFusion version of the NVidia driver. It has worked fine for me, never had a black screen or such problems.
With the NVidia own installer, the nvidia-config utility made wrong changes to xorg.conf, made X crash, stopped my webcam from working, and much more issues. Now that I've found RPMFusion I can install NVidia drivers without problems.

I'll maybe try Fedora on a computer with a SiS 741 graphics card, to see if those cards are also having those driver problems. I've had many Windows (XP) driver problems with this type of card, which have ended up in a broken card which had to be replaced by an NVidia on one of the 2 machines with this card.
(SIS still exists as a manufacturer of graphics cards, you are not bound to those 3)

And maybe I'll also try a prehistoric Trident card, but that will not be possible in near future, because that computer is not mine (and it's hard to install Linux without a CD player).

The nvidia driver from rpmfusion isn't compatible since it's delivered as a binary compiled against the latest kernel, and the Fuduntu kernel is a fork.

I am thinking of pulling the nvidia kernel module source into dkms so it is recompiled whenever the kernel is updated, it should be easier to maintain.

This method should be compatible with the remaining nvidia packages at rpmfusion too.

leigh123linux
5th January 2011, 03:04 PM
The nvidia driver from rpmfusion isn't compatible since it's delivered as a binary compiled against the latest kernel, and the Fuduntu kernel is a fork.

I am thinking of pulling the nvidia kernel module source into dkms so it is recompiled whenever the kernel is updated, it should be easier to maintain.

This method should be compatible with the remaining nvidia packages at rpmfusion too.

Use akmod-nvidia then :D

akmod = dkms

fewt
5th January 2011, 04:27 PM
Use akmod-nvidia then :D

akmod = dkms

orly? I didn't know that. I had only looked at kmod-nvidia.

Thanks, this is extremely helpful.

---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------

Fuduntu 14.7-7 is released, This update integrates likewise open for MSAD authentication, and improves the titlebar by removing the menu icon.

Fuduntu packages are now split into stable, testing, and source repositories, the testing and source repositories are disabled by default but can be enabled by editing /etc/yum.repos.d/fuduntu.repo.

Screenshots, and more information about this release:

http://www.fewt.com/2011/01/fuduntu-147-7-now-with-likewise-open.html

leigh123linux
5th January 2011, 04:54 PM
There seems to be no uninstall scripts for your jupiter rpm.



[root@localhost Desktop]# rpm -q --scripts jupiter
postinstall scriptlet (using /bin/sh):
if [ ! "$(grep jupiter /etc/group)" ]; then
echo "Adding Jupiter group"
/usr/sbin/groupadd jupiter
fi
echo -n "Adding users to Jupiter group: "
for i in $(awk -F: '$6 ~ /\/home/ && $3 >= 500 {print $1}' /etc/passwd);
do
echo -n $i" "
usermod -G jupiter -a $i 2>/dev/null || true
done
echo -e "\nAdding jupiter to sudoers"
grep jupiter /etc/sudoers >/dev/null 2>&1 || echo "%jupiter ALL=NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/bluetooth, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/camera, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/cpu-control, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/resolutions, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/rotate, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/touchpad, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/vga-out, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/wifi" >> /etc/sudoers

echo -e "\nAltering sudo tty permissions"
sed -i "s/^Defaults[ \t]*requiretty/#Defaults requiretty/g" /etc/sudoers
echo "Setting permissions.."
chown -R root:root /usr/lib/jupiter
chmod -R 755 /usr/lib/jupiter
chmod 755 /usr/bin/jupiter.exe
chmod -R 755 /etc/pm/power.d/*jupiter*
if [ ! -d "/var/jupiter" ]; then
mkdir /var/jupiter
fi
if [ -d "/var/jupiter" ]; then
chown -R root:jupiter /var/jupiter
chmod -R 775 /var/jupiter
fi
if [ -e "/usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/jupiter" ]; then
/usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/jupiter || true
fi
preuninstall program: /bin/sh
[root@localhost Desktop]#

fewt
6th January 2011, 01:55 AM
There seems to be no uninstall scripts for your jupiter rpm.


[root@localhost Desktop]# rpm -q --scripts jupiter
postinstall scriptlet (using /bin/sh):
if [ ! "$(grep jupiter /etc/group)" ]; then
echo "Adding Jupiter group"
/usr/sbin/groupadd jupiter
fi
echo -n "Adding users to Jupiter group: "
for i in $(awk -F: '$6 ~ /\/home/ && $3 >= 500 {print $1}' /etc/passwd);
do
echo -n $i" "
usermod -G jupiter -a $i 2>/dev/null || true
done
echo -e "\nAdding jupiter to sudoers"
grep jupiter /etc/sudoers >/dev/null 2>&1 || echo "%jupiter ALL=NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/bluetooth, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/camera, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/cpu-control, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/resolutions, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/rotate, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/touchpad, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/vga-out, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/wifi" >> /etc/sudoers

echo -e "\nAltering sudo tty permissions"
sed -i "s/^Defaults[ \t]*requiretty/#Defaults requiretty/g" /etc/sudoers
echo "Setting permissions.."
chown -R root:root /usr/lib/jupiter
chmod -R 755 /usr/lib/jupiter
chmod 755 /usr/bin/jupiter.exe
chmod -R 755 /etc/pm/power.d/*jupiter*
if [ ! -d "/var/jupiter" ]; then
mkdir /var/jupiter
fi
if [ -d "/var/jupiter" ]; then
chown -R root:jupiter /var/jupiter
chmod -R 775 /var/jupiter
fi
if [ -e "/usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/jupiter" ]; then
/usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/jupiter || true
fi
preuninstall program: /bin/sh
[root@localhost Desktop]# rpm -q --scripts jupiter
postinstall scriptlet (using /bin/sh):
if [ ! "$(grep jupiter /etc/group)" ]; then
echo "Adding Jupiter group"
/usr/sbin/groupadd jupiter
fi
echo -n "Adding users to Jupiter group: "
for i in $(awk -F: '$6 ~ /\/home/ && $3 >= 500 {print $1}' /etc/passwd);
do
echo -n $i" "
usermod -G jupiter -a $i 2>/dev/null || true
done
echo -e "\nAdding jupiter to sudoers"
grep jupiter /etc/sudoers >/dev/null 2>&1 || echo "%jupiter ALL=NOPASSWD: /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/bluetooth, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/camera, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/cpu-control, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/resolutions, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/rotate, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/touchpad, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/vga-out, /usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/wifi" >> /etc/sudoers

echo -e "\nAltering sudo tty permissions"
sed -i "s/^Defaults[ \t]*requiretty/#Defaults requiretty/g" /etc/sudoers
echo "Setting permissions.."
chown -R root:root /usr/lib/jupiter
chmod -R 755 /usr/lib/jupiter
chmod 755 /usr/bin/jupiter.exe
chmod -R 755 /etc/pm/power.d/*jupiter*
if [ ! -d "/var/jupiter" ]; then
mkdir /var/jupiter
fi
if [ -d "/var/jupiter" ]; then
chown -R root:jupiter /var/jupiter
chmod -R 775 /var/jupiter
fi
if [ -e "/usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/jupiter" ]; then
/usr/lib/jupiter/scripts/jupiter || true
fi
preuninstall program: /bin/sh
[root@localhost Desktop]#

You are correct, I didn't think it was important to remove the group, or edit sudoers on removal of the package in-case it was to be reinstalled later. It would be easy enough to add them though if needed.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------


Use akmod-nvidia then :D

akmod = dkms

This is exactly what I wanted.

I've updated my forum article to reflect using akmod-nvidia as well.

http://www.fuduntu.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14&p=30#p30

Thanks!

fewt
16th January 2011, 05:09 PM
I wanted to let everyone know that Fuduntu 14.8-2 is now available for existing Fuduntu users. It will automatically install when you update today.

New in this release - Ailurus, an advanced Ubuntu tweak like utility, Nautilus Actions Configuration tool, and the return of Tomboy.

More at ~/Blog - http://www.fewt.com/2011/01/fuduntu-148-2-update.html

fewt
19th January 2011, 09:18 PM
Fuduntu 14.8 Torrents are now available for those that prefer this download type. Please help seed if possible!

64bit torrent (http://linuxtracker.org/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=34409f3457a836bcf2fe786a31371f19dabfb591)

32bit torrent (http://linuxtracker.org/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=c3d77c1525477ff3de066f3bd5ca681e84af7cce)

SomeDamFool
21st January 2011, 12:41 PM
There are a lot of reasons to consider Fuduntu if you look past the name.


But unfortunately people often don't look past the name, as evidenced by some of the comments here. It may be a fine distro but my first impression was of something you do in the bathroom while grunting :p

Mike

fewt
21st January 2011, 01:27 PM
But unfortunately people often don't look past the name, as evidenced by some of the comments here. It may be a fine distro but my first impression was of something you do in the bathroom while grunting :p

Mike

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mohandas Gandhi

SomeDamFool
21st January 2011, 09:37 PM
Hello fewt,
My point was that this thread represents a very tiny cross section of the general public, yet had several remarks about the name. Multiply that by the general public... And while you may like the name I assume you want the distro to appeal to more than just you. I wish you luck with it but if you want to get it in circulation and find the name is a problem for people, well, you have to please the people.
Just sayin'
Mike

fewt
21st January 2011, 09:48 PM
Hello fewt,
My point was that this thread represents a very tiny cross section of the general public, yet had several remarks about the name. Multiply that by the general public... And while you may like the name I assume you want the distro to appeal to more than just you. I wish you luck with it but if you want to get it in circulation and find the name is a problem for people, well, you have to please the people.
Just sayin'
Mike

The name has only been a problem among a certain crowd of geeks.

The general public aren't geeks though, and arguably 99% of them don't know what a "FUD" means. It only means something to a certain percentage of geeks with a chip on their shoulder against Microsoft (in my opinion).

To anyone else, the name Fuduntu isn't any more unusual than Fudge, or Fuddruckers.

Would I change it if actual users wanted it? Probably, but so far they don't care and some of them actually like it (as discovered in the results of the poll I held last month).

:cool:

leigh123linux
21st January 2011, 10:04 PM
To be honest I never liked the name Fedora but it is my favourite distro. :cool:

bob
21st January 2011, 10:07 PM
Yeah, "Panama" would have been my first choice.

pythagorean
21st January 2011, 10:21 PM
+1 with leigh.

I wish Fedora was renamed to something bleak, dark and technological... something like Borg Computational Platform Linux or something that they would use on an intergalactic battleship when flying into a Black Hole.

I have been thinking of switching to Debian but I hate that swirly logo. I like the name FreeBSD.

The acorn/infinity sign logo for Fedora is cool. And I like Blue. I guess I use fedora mostly because I like blue. I hate green so Linux Mint gets on my nerves. And Ubuntu looks like roadkill with those browns and orange and salmon colors.

Other than those brand/appearance things, mostly the distros are the same.

SomeDamFool
22nd January 2011, 12:41 AM
The name has only been a problem among a certain crowd of geeks.

As far as you know. How many people are there you don't know about because they passed it over, maybe because of the name? How do you poll them?


Would I change it if actual users wanted it? Probably...

It's not the users you should focus on; if it's good they will like it and forgive the name even if they don't like it. It's the people who may never try it...

Most people shopping for a used car would buy the clean shiny one over the dull dirty one, even if the clean one is mechanically a piece of junk compared to the dirty one... first impressions are everything.

Possible first impression: Fuduntu... three syllables loaded with hard consonants; it doesn't roll off the tongue easily, it takes a little effort to say. And by the way how do they pronounce it? Most people won't order something on a menu they can't pronounce. People are funny that way.

If you want to "sell" something to the masses, make it appealing, and make it easy for them, which in turn makes things easier for the seller... less time and legwork convincing them it's worth their time.

So what's in a name... or a label, title, or book cover? It depends, but if you want to sell your house it might not be a good idea to have your for sale sign in Navajo or Swahili. You may have a great house, but to sell it you have to get them inside first.

When we create something it's our baby. We hang on to it jealously, and often resent criticism or even suggestions, and that's a normal response. The trick is not to hang on too long if a change could improve things.

These are just observations and suggestions.
Mike

fewt
22nd January 2011, 12:56 AM
As far as you know. How many people are there you don't know about because they passed it over, maybe because of the name? How do you poll them?



It's not the users you should focus on; if it's good they will like it and forgive the name even if they don't like it. It's the people who may never try it...

Most people shopping for a used car would buy the clean shiny one over the dull dirty one, even if the clean one is mechanically a piece of junk compared to the dirty one... first impressions are everything.

Possible first impression: Fuduntu... three syllables loaded with hard consonants; it doesn't roll off the tongue easily, it takes a little effort to say. And by the way how do they pronounce it? Most people won't order something on a menu they can't pronounce. People are funny that way.

If you want to "sell" something to the masses, make it appealing, and make it easy for them, which in turn makes things easier for the seller... less time and legwork convincing them it's worth their time.

So what's in a name... or a label, title, or book cover? It depends, but if you want to sell your house it might not be a good idea to have your for sale sign in Navajo or Swahili. You may have a great house, but to sell it you have to get them inside first.

When we create something it's our baby. We hang on to it jealously, and often resent criticism or even suggestions, and that's a normal response. The trick is not to hang on too long if a change could improve things.

These are just observations and suggestions.
Mike

"While Fuduntu boasts a full desktop experience, it's streamlined to offer excellent performance on netbooks and astounding speed on high-spec systems!" - Linux User and Developer Magazine issue #96 (https://www.imagineshop.co.uk/magazines/linuxuser/linux-user-and-developer-issue-96.html)

Seriously, I do appreciate input, and if you read about Fuduntu you can tell that it is largely driven by its current users. :D

SomeDamFool
22nd January 2011, 02:38 PM
Good luck to you. And seriously I hope the day comes when you can tell me "I told you so." :)
Mike

stevea
23rd January 2011, 03:21 AM
The stable, easy to use Linux distribution for your PC. Based on Fedora 14, Fuduntu 14.7 contains the latest Open Source software.

It's a violation of Fedora trademark to use phrases like:

* "built from Fedora"
* "powered by Fedora"
"contains Fedora"
For what appears to be a "Fedora remix".

The modified Fedora content should be referred to only as "Fedora Remix".
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines#Distributing_combinations_of_F edora_software_with_non-Fedora_or_modified_Fedora_software

Although the OPs "distro" has removed the necessary Fedora logos, release, release-notes packages. It still points it's error reporting to bugzilla.redhat.com where they should not be honored (in /etc/reports.d).

I've booted this spin in a VM and I find numerous missing libraries, breaking a great number of tools.

/ When I attempt to install to disk I get ...

localhost ~ $ /usr/bin/liveinst
0 logical volume(s) in volume group "foo" now active
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/sbin/anaconda", line 496, in <module>
from pyanaconda import kickstart
File "/usr/lib64/python2.7/site-packages/pyanaconda/kickstart.py", line 41, in <module>
import urlgrabber
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/urlgrabber/__init__.py", line 54, in <module>
from grabber import urlgrab, urlopen, urlread
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/urlgrabber/grabber.py", line 427, in <module>
import pycurl
ImportError: liblber-2.4.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

When I attempt to setup networking I get ...

localhost ~ $ dhclient
dhclient: error while loading shared libraries: liblber-2.4.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory


After manually configuring the network I get ...

localhost ~ $ ssh
ssh: error while loading shared libraries: libldap-2.4.so.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

Such problems are likely to occur on any new remix, and even greater support problems are no doubt embedded in Fubuntu's non-standard 2.6.37 kernel. That isn't the issue. My difficulty is that the OP seems to think think it's OK to insinuate this is "Based on Fedora" therefore giving Fedora a bad name for his Fuduntu problems. His configs points users to bugzilla.redhat.com where Fuduntu bug reports do not generally belong. He believes it is somehow unfriendly when I suggested that Fuduntu users look to the Fuduntu forum for answers,
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=257835

I wish the OP every success, but slapping a couple packages and sysctl tweaks onto Fedora, jacking a non-standard kernel underneath, and then expecting the Fedora/Redhat community to provide support for his non-standard, non-community efforts is arrogant (which matches the boastful claims for this "distro").

A less ego-full approach would be to add the packages to fedora or rpmfusion repos and participate, even drive, a community effort in creating an official Fedora spin for small systems/netbooks. (which seems to be the Fuduntu target market).

As it stands Fuduntu is a pretty good idea executed outside of any Open Software community. Maybe a good nucleus of users and developers will cluster there - and more power to them. Expecting the RH/Fedora community to clean your dirty laundry is a step too far.

fewt
23rd January 2011, 03:57 AM
It's a violation of Fedora trademark to use phrases like:

For what appears to be a "Fedora remix".

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines#Distributing_combinations_of_F edora_software_with_non-Fedora_or_modified_Fedora_software


It would have been much more helpful to have brought it to my attention, but I get that posting in the forum is more dramatic. :D

That said, I highly doubt that the Fedora project really cares that much about a forum post. The website clearly defines it as a remix.



Although the OPs "distro" has removed the necessary Fedora logos, release, release-notes packages. It still points it's error reporting to bugzilla.redhat.com where they should not be honored (in /etc/reports.d).


I accept patches. ;)



I've booted this spin in a VM and I find numerous missing libraries, breaking a great number of tools.

/ When I attempt to install to disk I get ...


When I attempt to setup networking I get ...


After manually configuring the network I get ...


This is the first report of this, if you can troubleshoot it would be helpful.



Such problems are likely to occur on any new remix, and even greater support problems are no doubt embedded in Fubuntu's non-standard 2.6.37 kernel. That isn't the issue. My difficulty is that the OP seems to think think it's OK to insinuate this is "Based on Fedora" therefore giving Fedora a bad name for his Fuduntu problems. His configs points users to bugzilla.redhat.com where Fuduntu bug reports do not generally belong. He believes it is somehow unfriendly when I suggested that Fuduntu users look to the Fuduntu forum for answers,
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=257835


That non-standard kernel is directly from Rawhide. :rolleyes:

You are unfriendly, just look at any of your posts. I didn't mean anything by my comment, but the facts are the facts.



I wish the OP every success, but slapping a couple packages and sysctl tweaks onto Fedora, jacking a non-standard kernel underneath, and then expecting the Fedora/Redhat community to provide support for his non-standard, non-community efforts is arrogant (which matches the boastful claims for this "distro").


There are over 300 packages in the Fuduntu repo, and I lost count of the number of changes that I have made to Fedora. I don't expect Fedora to support anything, I just haven't gotten to it yet.

I accept patches. ;)



A less ego-full approach would be to add the packages to fedora or rpmfusion repos and participate, even drive, a community effort in creating an official Fedora spin for small systems/netbooks. (which seems to be the Fuduntu target market)


Why don't we all just use Linux from scratch? I use packages that the Fedora project would not accept, it can never be a spin. For starters I use Mono.



As it stands Fuduntu is a pretty good idea executed outside of any Open Software community. Maybe a good nucleus of users and developers will cluster there - and more power to them. Expecting the RH/Fedora community to clean your dirty laundry is a step too far.

I accept patches. ;)

smr54
24th January 2011, 09:00 PM
I see that Distrowatch reviewed it again today--basically said nice things--main criticism was the fact that Fedora's GUI package manager is apparently pretty bad. (Does it still allow updates of signed packages without any authorization?)

I don't use it at all (the GUI package manager) but I see DW termed it as crippled.

fewt
25th January 2011, 04:31 PM
I see that Distrowatch reviewed it again today--basically said nice things--main criticism was the fact that Fedora's GUI package manager is apparently pretty bad. (Does it still allow updates of signed packages without any authorization?)

I don't use it at all (the GUI package manager) but I see DW termed it as crippled.

I am really very happy with the review. I doubt that I can improve packagekit though, it works fine with the exception of not having a "leave me alone" option.

stevea
25th January 2011, 09:16 PM
This is the first report of this, if you can troubleshoot it would be helpful.

Probably most of your users are 32bit. The libraries noted are missing from the 64bit distro live image for 14.8.-x86-64. Both in /lib64 IIRC.


That non-standard kernel is directly from Rawhide. :rolleyes:

Either your post #1 or the statement above is is a lie. The Fedora Rawhide kernel certainly DOES NOT contain the BFS scheduler (nor does the Linus kernel).

And you wonder why I am unfriendly toward Fuduntu ???
You are being deceitful & boastful about what you are delivering.



There are over 300 packages in the Fuduntu repo, and I lost count of the number of changes that I have made to Fedora. I don't expect Fedora to support anything, I just haven't gotten to it yet.

Aye - and that's the problem - support. Likely you never will have adequate support for a full distro. It's a big effort.


Why don't we all just use Linux from scratch? I use packages that the Fedora project would not accept, it can never be a spin. For starters I use Mono.

You obviously didn't understand my comments, please re-read them with an open mind. You could put non-free packages in places like rpmfusion or even your repo, and then work for a community spin for netbooks (or whatever your target). That way a lot of community effort spills over into your project and your efforts support a larger community.. If you have a "cooked" kernel and home-grown packages then no one but you can provide support.


I accept patches. ;)

IMO you'd be better off accepting ideas that differ from your own if you want success. That means building or joining a community and giving up a good deal of project control. You'll likely need a community, (not necessarily RH/Fedora) for support. There are a few examples of niche distros that are primarily a one-person effort - Knoppix(deceased), Pupppy, but to keep up with the level of change in Fedora you'll need a team, a community.

The world could use a really good netbook distro (that's how I peg this distro) , but based on what I see it won't be Fuduntu. I sincerely hope you will prove me wrong, as Fuduntu does contain some good ideas.

fewt
25th January 2011, 09:26 PM
Probably most of your users are 32bit. The libraries noted are missing from the 64bit distro live image for 14.8.-x86-64. Both in /lib64 IIRC.


Thanks.



Either your post #1 or the statement above is is a lie. The Fedora Rawhide kernel certainly DOES NOT contain the BFS scheduler (nor does the Linus kernel).


The first releases were. Try to keep up, I abandoned the BFS patches when I released 14.8. It was in the news.



And you wonder why I am unfriendly toward Fuduntu ???
You are being deceitful & boastful about what you are delivering.


Hardly, everything release is documented, and this is why.

http://www.fewt.com/search/label/fuduntu

For example.



Linux Kernel 2.6.37
Removed BFS
- http://www.fewt.com/2011/01/fuduntu-148-hits-streets.html

You could be a little friendlier. Understanding the big picture may help, but I have seen your reaction to other users so I won't hold my breath.



Aye - and that's the problem - support. Likely you never will have adequate support for a full distro. It's a big effort.


That's why I pull what I choose to not maintain myself from Fedora. Is it is big job? Yes. Is it personally satisfying? Yes. Can I handle it? I have hundreds of servers that I manage, this isn't much different so, yes.

The Fuduntu team grew by two members this week, and as long as it continues to grow I won't worry.



You obviously didn't understand my comments, please re-read them with an open mind. You could put non-free packages in places like rpmfusion or even your repo, and then work for a community spin for netbooks (or whatever your target). That way a lot of community effort spills over into your project and your efforts support a larger community.. If you have a "cooked" kernel and home-grown packages then no one but you can provide support.


That doesn't solve the problem that I chose to try to tackle. I have been doing this for 15 years, I think I have an idea on how to pull it off. If you would like a community netbook spin, I urge you to build one.



IMO you'd be better off accepting ideas that differ from your own if you want success.


Did you read the distrowatch article? I urge you to do so again.


However, the project's developer, who goes by the nickname Fewt, had an unexpected reaction to my criticism of his pet project: he welcomed it. In fact, post-review, Fewt set up an on-line poll and invited Fuduntu users and DistroWatch readers to tell him what worked, what didn't and what they would see as improvements. Since then, a handful of minor updates have been released and I took the latest one for a test drive.

I listen. I asked Fuduntu users what they wanted, and then I worked to deliver it.



The world could use a really good netbook distro (that's how I peg this distro) , but based on what I see it won't be Fuduntu. I sincerely hope you will prove me wrong, as Fuduntu does contain some good ideas.

Your loss. Fuduntu is improving and gaining new users every day. I'm not worried if a few elect to hate it because they are too arrogant to try to understand it.

stevea
25th January 2011, 11:41 PM
The first releases were. Try to keep up, I abandoned the BFS patches when I released 14.8. It was in the news.

You are confused - this is the Fedora Forum. I am keeping up with this thread - not attempting to keep up with your voluminous changes in code. So that's 2x full releases if Fubuntu in the past month ? That is NOT what I would call stable, friend.

WHY did you select BFS in the first place ? (it seems highly questionable unless there is a clear and demonstrable gain, as I have said).

WHY did you remove it recently ?

There may be good technical reasons for both, but it sure looks like someone is lacking a design and making seat-of-the-pant decisions.



You could be a little friendlier. Understanding the big picture may help, but I have seen your reaction to other users so I won't hold my breath.

I see - so you hurl a personal insults at me and then claim that I am "unfriendly" repeatedly. What does that make you chum ?


That's why I pull what I choose to not maintain myself from Fedora.

Again that's a major misunderstanding on your part When you install an F14 package in your non-community environment - the support headaches belong to YOU.



The Fuduntu team grew by two members this week, and as long as it continues to grow I won't worry.

Again - sincere best wishes, but I think you are more than a few tweaks away from a successful formula.




That doesn't solve the problem that I chose to try to tackle. I have been doing this for 15 years, I think I have an idea on how to pull it off. If you would like a community netbook spin, I urge you to build one.

If I misunderstand the goal of your "distro" that's fine, but your method stinks. You Take F14 packages to your environment and then insinuate that the problems that arise are Fedora's.. That's rotten and harms Fedora.



Did you read the distrowatch article? I urge you to do so again.

Yes - did you ? It's not very complimentary.


Your loss. Fuduntu is improving and gaining new users every day. I'm not worried if a few elect to hate it because they are too arrogant to try to understand it.

No loss since nothing in Fuduntu addresses my needs. Someone is certainly arrogant here, and based on the outlandish, boastful, ridiculous marketing claims in post #1, your lack of regression testing that would "ship" an uninstallable distro, miss major packages (see distrowatch article), put users in an unsupportable position with rash choices of scheuler and sysctl params ... well I'll let others can judge.

fewt
25th January 2011, 11:53 PM
You are confused - this is the Fedora Forum. I am keeping up with this thread - not attempting to keep up with your voluminous changes in code. So that's 2x full releases if Fubuntu in the past month ? That is NOT what I would call stable, friend.


You cannot define stability by the number of releases of a given product. You judge stability by issue reports, and mttr.



WHY did you select BFS in the first place ? (it seems highly questionable unless there is a clear and demonstrable gain, as I have said).


There was a noticeable improvement, but I found the improvement of the cgroups shell tweak to be equivalent. I decided that I didn't want to be in the kernel maintenance business, and with the anticipated changes in 2.6.38 I decided to get out now.



There may be good technical reasons for both, but it sure looks like someone is lacking a design and making seat-of-the-pant decisions.


There is nothing wrong with molding and adapting now, it is much better to make drastic changes before the distribution gains popularity rather than after.



I see - so you hurl a personal insults at me and then claim that I am "unfriendly" repeatedly. What does that make you chum ?


Which insults? Implying you are arrogant is not an insult.



Again that's major misunderastaning on your part WHat you install an F14 package in your non-community environment - the support headaches belong to YOU.

You seem to take forking a distribution awfully personal. Is this a sore spot for you? Do I need to read the GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html) to you?

This section is titled "Fedora Spins & Remixes", if you have that much of a problem with spins and remixes you should probably click to another area of the forum.

Let me remind you what a Fedora remix is.


A Fedora Remix is a combination of Fedora software, with or without third-party software, that any community member can create at any time. You can use a Fedora Remix to:

Target a specific hardware platform like a netbook, router, or other device
Provide an appropriate combination of software for a specific interest group, like artists, musicians, software developers, educators, craftsmen, et al.
Demonstrate a layered product using the Fedora platform as the underlying operating system
Build a portable, bootable environment for a classroom
Offer promotional materials to customers inside a fully customizable OS
Or any of countless other applications...

- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Remix



Again - sincere best wishes, but I think you are more than a few tweaks away from a successful formula.


Ok, noted. Thanks.



If I misunderstand the goal of your "distro" that's fine, but your method stinks. You Take F14 packages to your environment and then insinuate that the problems that arise are Fedora's.. That's rotten and harms Fedora.

First of all, when have I ever said that a Fuduntu problem wasn't a Fuduntu problem. Evidence of this please.

As for harming Fedora.

RedHat does it (http://www.redhat.com/rhel/desktop/), does that harm Fedora?

What about Oracle Enterprise Linux (http://www.oracle.com/us/technologies/linux/index.html), does it harm Fedora?

There is also CentOS (http://www.centos.org/), do they harm Fedora too?

Didn't think so.



Yes - did you ? It's not very complimentary.


Sure it was. It doesn't have to say that it is absolutely perfect for it to be complimentary.



No loss since nothing in Fuduntu addresses my needs. Someone is certainly arrogant here, and based on the outlandish, boastful, ridiculous marketing claims in post #1, your lack of regression testing that would "ship" an uninstallable distro, miss major packages (see distrowatch article), put users in an unsupportable position with rash choices of scheuler and sysctl params ... well I'll let others can judge.

I test on 6 different hardware combinations, sounds like it wasn't yours. I also am putting together a test suite to make sure it is tested properly because of my oversight with 14.8. You could help, but I suppose it's easier to run your mouth.

Perhaps I should update the first post, but again, you are just here for the drama. (note: I edited it, you can stop whining about it now)

stevea
26th January 2011, 05:59 PM
You cannot define stability by the number of releases of a given product. You judge stability by issue reports, and mttr.

So a release every two weeks is your planned schedule ? Nonsense !. It's driven by major errors = instability. Of course I'm suggesting you have a written plan, which seems dubious.


There is nothing wrong with molding and adapting now, it is much better to make drastic changes before the distribution gains popularity rather than after.

So now it's an experiment/limited release ? Where is the road-map ? Sure seems like seat-of-the-pants design methodology; try-somoething, try-something-else.


I test on 6 different hardware combinations, sounds like it wasn't yours. I also am putting together a test suite to make sure it is tested properly because of my oversight with 14.8. You could help, but I suppose it's easier to run your mouth.


Astoundingly silly explanation ! Missing libraries and the distrowatch article missing adobe plugin have absolutely nothing to do with hardware configuration. It has to do with a gross lack of regression testing.

.

You seem to take forking a distribution awfully personal. Is this a sore spot for you? Do I need to read the GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html) to you?

Ignorant & silly (called the strawman fallacy). I never suggested that you don't have every right to use the GPLed code under the GPL license. Show evidence or admit you are just mud-slinging whenever you can't answer criticisms honestly.


Your replies above look like a lot of "spin" and attempts at blame diversion. I suppose the dog ate your product road-map and piddled on the DVD manifest too ?


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Which insults? Implying you are arrogant is not an insult.

You've repeatedly characterized me (and not any specific content) as "unfriendly"; and more recently "whining" and seeking "drama" those are personal insults.. My post #66 was an honest, not particularly harsh. and not unfriendly critique of your product and it's problems from my POV. Instead of addressing the technical points honestly, you create ridiculous "spin" replies with personal ad hominem against your critic.

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First of all, when have I ever said that a Fuduntu problem wasn't a Fuduntu problem. Evidence of this please.


The evidence is explicitly in post #71, talking about limiting your support efforts you said .....


That's why I pull what I choose to not maintain myself from Fedora

So you are not maintaining the F14 packages in your environment. You expect them to be self-supporting perhaps ?

Also your "based on Fedora" trademark infringement (you recently removed) implies to user's the Fedora is the place to get support for Fuduntu.

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Perhaps I should update the first post, but again, you are just here for the drama. (note: I edited it, you can stop whining about it now)

Whining is sometimes the sound of legitimate criticism to a narcissists ears. You removed the major offensive, ridiculous and unlawful claims in your first post. I do appreciate that, but of course you coupled it to another personal insult attack. You really do seem to have a problem dealing with product criticism.

If I wanted to be "unfriendly", snarky or rude, you'd be in your closet crying.

Dan
26th January 2011, 06:38 PM
Guys ... the only reason I haven't screwed the lid down on this due to the snarky interpersonal cr*p, is that beneath the surface, it seems like something may actually be getting accomplished here.

However, as soon as it gets more sour than productive ... expect the lid to slam without warning or appeal.

fewt
27th January 2011, 01:46 AM
So a release every two weeks is your planned schedule ? Nonsense !. It's driven by major errors = instability. Of course I'm suggesting you have a written plan, which seems dubious.


I have had 2 problems with my ISOs, one with the 64bit build that you pointed out and one with the kickstart pointed out by distrowatch where I accidentally deleted two lines. ALL of the other releases have been improvements. I started working on the project three months ago. There is a plan, it is documented and published.



So now it's an experiment/limited release ? Where is the road-map ? Sure seems like seat-of-the-pants design methodology; try-somoething, try-something-else.


The roadmap is documented and published.



Astoundingly silly explanation ! Missing libraries and the distrowatch article missing adobe plugin have absolutely nothing to do with hardware configuration. It has to do with a gross lack of regression testing.


As I admitted in the comment on distrowatch, I made a mistake. **** happens. I have since begun writing test cases to prevent it from happening again.



Ignorant & silly (called the strawman fallacy). I never suggested that you don't have every right to use the GPLed code under the GPL license. Show evidence or admit you are just mud-slinging whenever you can't answer criticisms honestly.


You are welcome to stop attacking me for taking advantage of the GPL at ANY TIME.



Your replies above look like a lot of "spin" and attempts at blame diversion. I suppose the dog ate your product road-map and piddled on the DVD manifest too ?


I began writing the roadmap December 24th. If you could bother yourself enough to leave the forum for a moment, you would be able to find it.



You've repeatedly characterized me (and not any specific content) as "unfriendly"; and more recently "whining" and seeking "drama" those are personal insults.. My post #66 was an honest, not particularly harsh. and not unfriendly critique of your product and it's problems from my POV. Instead of addressing the technical points honestly, you create ridiculous "spin" replies with personal ad hominem against your critic.


You really do know how to be a jerk, that's OK though since I assume it is the only thing you are good at.

It seems that you are getting more and more unfriendly with every reply, as though you are attacking me on purpose. I don't know what I did to you, maybe you simply can't handle criticism of your attitude, but I really do not care to continue this. This will be my last reply to you, as the entire conversation is just a waste of time that I could be better spent doing something that is actually important, or if nothing else interesting.



The evidence is explicitly in post #71, talking about limiting your support efforts you said .....


That's right, and in english it means that I won't build and maintain packages myself. I will however open bug reports against Fedora when I find bugs. That is EXACTLY what I have been doing too.



So you are not maintaining the F14 packages in your environment. You expect them to be self-supporting perhaps ?


If the package is built properly and isn't cobbled together it is not hard to support. Are you now implying that Fedoras packages are so broken that they aren't maintainable?



Also your "based on Fedora" trademark infringement (you recently removed) implies to user's the Fedora is the place to get support for Fuduntu.


You aren't an attorney, you don't get to school me on what does and does not infringe on Fedoras trademark. I removed it because I thought it could be confusing, and you wouldn't stop bitching about it. You can let it go.



Whining is sometimes the sound of legitimate criticism to a narcissists ears. You removed the major offensive, ridiculous and unlawful claims in your first post. I do appreciate that, but of course you coupled it to another personal insult attack. You really do seem to have a problem dealing with product criticism.


I removed things that had changed since I initially posted it. You don't appreciate anything except abusing people who would otherwise have nothing to do with you. I assume your real life is just as sad.

I have no issue dealing with criticism, or admitting fault. I have done a lot of it since I started the project. That said, I started Fuduntu as a learning experience. I don't expect it to ever be Fedora, or Ubuntu. I expect though that I will be able to do with it what I choose as allowed under the license. I also expect not to be punished for choosing to do so.



If I wanted to be "unfriendly", snarky or rude, you'd be in your closet crying.

You wouldn't make it to the door.

Dan
27th January 2011, 01:51 AM
Not real strong on subtle warnings, eh?

Thread closed.

EDIT: Note - This thread was closed as I warned it would be -- and a PM was received from the OP indicating he wished it closed. I was glad to oblige. However, after another exchange of PMs, it also became quite evident that it would be his last post on the forums as well.

We wish him well in his endeavours.