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feddy
27th November 2009, 03:23 AM
Hi,

I just installed the xfce4 spin and its' great. Clean and light, but it only seems to talk english. That's fine for me and I'd keep it as it is but I'm looking for a french language installation for a couple of friends.

The xfce4 liveCD asks me for a keyboard layout but says noting about installation lang. So I got and english F12 with a french keyboard.

On starting from the installed reboot the login screen shows "chose you language and login", or words to that effect. Only there does not seem to be a way to do that. It looks like some half hacked option that would normally appear in a full F12.

There is absolutely nothing in the release notes that explains that it is a one language build so if that's the case it should be clearly labelled.

So where can I go from here?

Dump the installation and do full gnome install then install @xfce-desktop ?
Is that a way to install an international build of xfce4?
Local rebuild, too much work.
Forget xfce4 and go for gnome / kde. Shame , I like xfce4

Drop back to F11, more mature and sorted . Tranlations seems a bit unfinished.

What would you suggest?

TIA

scottro
27th November 2009, 03:47 AM
Je ne sais pas? (Was that right--I think so)

Seriously, it's a bit odd--there was a whole long (still ongoing) thread on testing, with the complaint by some that there were too many unneeded languages. If Rahul comes across this thread, he'll probably be able to enlighten you.

One solution might be to download the DVD. Then, when you get to the option of what repos and such to install, you can choose the customize now option. That will enable you to choose XFCE as your desktop. (I'm not sure if it is one of the obvious choices, or if you only see Gnome and KDE as obvious). If that is the case (that is, only seeing Gnome and KDE) just uncheck both and a bit further down you'll see something for other window managers or something similar, and from there, you can select xfce.

RahulSundaram
27th November 2009, 09:54 PM
Hi,

Desktop (GNOME) Live CD and non-live images includes a lot of locales by default. Xfce and KDE spins are English only and yes, this needs to be documented clearly in spin.fedoraproject.org. I will talk to the spin maintainers about it. How do you fix it?

#yum -v grouplist | grep french

French Support (french-support)

# yum install @french-support

Release notes only document what has changed between the last release and this one usually. Since this is not a recent change and has always been the case, we don't document it there. IIRC, GDM (which is used in the Xfce spin) displays languages not installed for some reason. I think that one is a bug. I will try and follow through on that as well. Hope that helps.

feddy
28th November 2009, 09:52 AM
hi,

thanks for both your replies which I saw a bit too late.

I went with the full dvd install unfortunatley I was only presented with a choice of kde or gnome. I believe scrotto is correct that deselecting both opens up other offers. I did an F10 installation for the neighbour and now you tell me it rings a bell . I must have forgotten discovering that little trap door.

Unless you are deliberately tring to prevent users from selecting xfce4 this is poor UI design. I should not have to speak to little pixie in the corner and give him some food to get a message about how to open the door !

If its a valid installer option it should be visible.

The xfce4 spin looked very finished and reliable so I don't think it defective, why hide it?

Rahul, yes please fix the information on the download pages. I did not really expect to find it in the release notes but I spent about 20min searching everywhere assuming I was being dumb and not seeing something so obvious which MUST be shown somewhere.

I did find some deeper info in i18n pages about the state of individual packages but nothing about the level of language support even for the main releases.

It seems strange that this is not explained.

As for "uneeded" languages, until the whole world speaks English they are only unneeded to a smallish percentage of the world population. I would have thought that at least the core european languages were "needed".

However, there does seem to be a whole rake of minor asian languages and fonts that I was unable to get rid of even by careful selection of packages. They all got pulled back in during dep checking.

If find it rather sad that at this stage, the 12th release of this distro, these basic things still have not been ironed out.

It seems that what I should have done was
# yum install @french-support

maybe that could be added to the doc on the spin pages because downloading the full DVD took me over 24h and I installed something that I did not really want : kde.

thanks again.

RahulSundaram
13th December 2009, 07:50 AM
Hi,

Issue filed at

https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-websites/ticket/7#preview

feddy
13th December 2009, 10:52 AM
just a note to correct the misinformatin about yum @french-support , this ONLY provides dictionary and manpages "support" it has no bearing on any language support in the individual packages or the system as a whole which remains entirely english only.

cwickert
13th December 2009, 02:19 PM
The xfce4 liveCD asks me for a keyboard layout but says noting about installation lang. So I got and english F12 with a french keyboard.

On starting from the installed reboot the login screen shows "chose you language and login", or words to that effect. Only there does not seem to be a way to do that.
The language selection is not only available at the login screen of the installed system but also at the login screen of the LiveCD itself, not only after reboot. If you select it there already, the installation will be in French and you get a French system afterwards.


It looks like some half hacked option that would normally appear in a full F12.
I assume that with "full" F12 you mean an installation from DVD, right? The only difference between the live-install and the DVD install is that the live-install only copies an image of the live media to disk, so you have no package selection.


Dump the installation and do full gnome install then install @xfce-desktop ?
Why that? Even if you install from the DVD or the netinstall you don't need to install Gnome, you can install just Xfce. Of course this requires an internet connection because Xfce is not in the installation DVD. And if you install from the standard "Desktop" Livecd with Gnome, the process is completely the same as with the Xfce Live.


Forget xfce4 and go for gnome / kde. Shame , I like xfce4
Again, there is no difference between the different live media or spins. They are fully translated, the only thing that is missing are dictionaries, even the English ones. You can install them afterwards with the Add/remove software tool -> Localization -> your desired language(s).


Drop back to F11, more mature and sorted . Tranlations seems a bit unfinished.
Nothing has changed between F11 and F12, the Spins are/were fully localized. The only thing that has changed is that system-config-language was removed from the spins as part of the system-config tools cleanup. Maybe this was not the wisest decision to make, but the Gnome guys thought that the language selection at the login manager was sufficient, so we followed their decision.

I hope this explains things a bit.

Regards,
Christoph

P.S.: Did I mention that all Gnome poeple who decided that system-config-language is not needed any longer are native English speakers? ;)
Did I mention

leigh123linux
13th December 2009, 02:40 PM
The language selection is not only available at the login screen of the installed system but also at the login screen of the LiveCD itself, not only after reboot. If you select it there already, the installation will be in French and you get a French system afterwards.


I assume that with "full" F12 you mean an installation from DVD, right? The only difference between the live-install and the DVD install is that the live-install only copies an image of the live media to disk, so you have no package selection.


Why that? Even if you install from the DVD or the netinstall you don't need to install Gnome, you can install just Xfce. Of course this requires an internet connection because Xfce is not in the installation DVD. And if you install from the standard "Desktop" Livecd with Gnome, the process is completely the same as with the Xfce Live.


Again, there is no difference between the different live media or spins. They are fully translated, the only thing that is missing are dictionaries, even the English ones. You can install them afterwards with the Add/remove software tool -> Localization -> your desired language(s).


Nothing has changed between F11 and F12, the Spins are/were fully localized. The only thing that has changed is that system-config-language was removed from the spins as part of the system-config tools cleanup. Maybe this was not the wisest decision to make, but the Gnome guys thought that the language selection at the login manager was sufficient, so we followed their decision.

I hope this explains things a bit.

Regards,
Christoph

P.S.: Did I mention that all Gnome poeple who decided that system-config-language is not needed any longer are native English speakers? ;)
Did I mention


Is this why I can't set Gnome to proper English i.e en_GB.UTF-8 ? ;)

cwickert
13th December 2009, 02:49 PM
Is this why I can't set Gnome to proper English i.e en_GB.UTF-8 ? ;)

Maybe I should have written "native American speakers" ;) but the term "native American" usually means somthing else.

P.S. Leight, save your forum, don't use full quotes. ;)

feddy
13th December 2009, 10:05 PM
Quote:
It looks like some half hacked option that would normally appear in a full F12.
I assume that with "full" F12 you mean an installation from DVD, right? The only difference between the live-install and the DVD install is that the live-install only copies an image of the live media to disk, so you have no package selection.
@cwickert

Have you checked this?

I've just rebooted the xfce F12 CD four times to make sure I've not overlooked something and there is no way I can see to get a non en-us login.

The DM pretends to give you the choice. It says " select language and click login". The catch is there is NOWHERE to select the language. If you tell me they are fully translated packages just like the full DVD I'd like to believe it but this feature seems inaccessible.

Maybe I need to feed the pixie sitting in the corner and he'll give the secret to get past the gnome guarding the entry to the next run-level. :p

This does work on the DVD so I can only conclude as I did above that this has been half removed. Probably by a bunch of gnomes who think it is unnecessary.


I'd be happy if you can tell me I've just missed something but it does not look like it.

Thanks for you reply.

cwickert
13th December 2009, 10:53 PM
Have you checked this?
Yes, I am one of the makers of the Spin and I have put much time into it. I have seen it booting pretty often and this is what I see:

http://i.imagehost.org/t/0224/f12-xfce-spin-login.jpg (http://i.imagehost.org/view/0224/f12-xfce-spin-login)
(click to enlarge)

I think the language selection is obvious. Hint: It is in the bottom left. ;) Do you see something?

Regards,
Christoph

feddy
14th December 2009, 12:29 AM
Hi,

I have had another look and it seems the language option is a bit ephemeral.

As your screen shot shows , it is there at this initial boot if I don't touch anything. However, if I choose "Other ..." is disappears. If I choose Automatic login and then cancel out it is no longer there even though the highlight is still on automatic login. If I click on Live system user it jumps straight in without giving me chance to see any options.

It seems that I started exploring the options (before noticing the drop down lists) and this removed the language/keyboard options in some situations. At that stage I could see the "Select language and click log in" but no such options were visible.

This is what caused the confusion.

I'll have to check if this is also the case with the DVD. Although it would be odd that I would see it with one and not the other.

Thanks for your detailed replies.

---------- Post added at 10:29 PM CST ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM CST ----------

OK, I have just rebooted the DVD and , as I'm sure you are aware, the lang selection is completely different. The first interaction with the user is choose language, then choose keyboard. No confusion possible.

I am also wondering if at one stage with the spin I did click on the language drop down and misinterpret what I saw. It's a while back now but I recall seeing a list that gave me no choice. English or other with no "others" to choose from.

It is possible that probably due to small font size and late night tired eyes I did not see the "..." after "other". It looked like a dead-end non choice.

Maybe "Choose other language" would be clearer.

Probably then I started exploring the other login user options and the language options disappeared all together.

That fact that there is no way to change language once logged in reinforced the idea that it was a one language disk. I concluded this had been done to save space to squeeze more into the CD version.

I hope this clears up what I was seeing and lets you see if there are ways to improve the interface.

Thanks for all your work on the spin , as I said above it is an excellent installation. However, I do think language and keyboard change over should be in there. I use english English and often need to use French as well. Much of Europe will frequently use more than one language now. Trying to get french accents out of an english keyboard is a nightmare.

Thanks again.