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Zebaztian
17th August 2009, 06:04 PM
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=1251255&postcount=14

As said in that post, I left Fedora, but it's even more said if this below is true (I post the entire text from http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4459.html ):


"Jun 19th, 2009, 10:42 am
I've been in discussions with a group of other writers, Linux distribution watchers, Linux community leaders and developers in the past few days concerning Linux commercial vs. Linux community versions and some of us came to the conclusion that Fedora's relevance has waned. In fact, it might be time to scrap it completely. Or maybe it's time for Red Hat to step up and support it formally and unconditionally.

Fedora is the only major community Linux edition that has no commercial support option from its commercial benefactor. Even OpenSolaris has commercial support from Sun.

This brings me to the question, "Does Red Hat really care about its community?"

The answer, from its policies, tell me no.

Don't get me wrong, I love Red Hat Linux--or did until my recent negative experiences with it. My first negative Red Hat experience was a few years ago when they decided to scrap what was then known as Red Hat Linux that ended with version 9.0 in 2004. They then began the infamous Fedora Project to which this post is aimed.

It seems to me, and others, that Fedora is nothing more than a early adopter testbed and package foundry and not a serious linux distro with strong community support with commercial support options.

This is unfortunate since many, like me, saw something special in Red Hat in the latter 1990s and adopted it as their platform of choice. To say the least, I'm disappointed. To Red Hat's credit, they are one of the most successful open source businesses and a true success story for the Open Source Community in general. For this, I applaud them.

Contrary to what you might believe, I am not anti-Red Hat but I do find that some of their corporate policies have become community-unfriendly. In my opinion, if you don't have a good relationship with your community, your level of success is going to be limited. They might not have experienced this yet but they will when adopters realize that there is no support from the mother ship.

So, what does this all mean? It means that you should move to something that is better for your company in terms of support, validity, stability and viability. My suggestions are CentOS, Ubuntu or Debian. Ubuntu is Debian-based and CentOS is actually Red Hat Enterprise Linux created from source--so if you like RPM-based distributions, CentOS is a great choice. If you require vendor support, Ubuntu or openSUSE would be my choices--although Ubuntu's prices are significantly higher than others.

It's time for Fedora to be mothballed and to enter Wikipedia as a historic and defunct distribution.

Since Red Hat has turned its back on me and others in the community twice in the past few years, I bid them adieu. I do wish them the best of luck in their endeavors but until they make a new and convincing effort, I'll use something else.

What kind of experiences have you had from Red Hat--good or bad? Write back and let me know."

Written by Ken Hess http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4459.htm

bob
17th August 2009, 06:56 PM
(Moved to Reviews, Rants & Things That Make Me Scream) *yawn*

Dan
17th August 2009, 07:02 PM
Well, CRUD!

I was just in the middle of moving this ... thread, and it suddenly wasn't where it used to be. Quick work there, Bob ... but now I feel sooooo left out. <..:p..>

JN4OldSchool
17th August 2009, 07:06 PM
double yawn. The writer has no clue. :)

Hey, if Fedora is not relevant for you then move to something else.

Dan
17th August 2009, 07:10 PM
... Methinks he did. Just not quite soon enough, though. <..:rolleyes:..>

Zebaztian
17th August 2009, 07:19 PM
double yawn. The writer has no clue. :)

Hey, if Fedora is not relevant for you then move to something else.

The question is really: "Does Red Hat really care about its community?"

I'm intrested in all linux distributions progress, but I understand that to spread out in general, the symbios from a commercial company, is important as with Ubuntu(Canonical(/Debian, Red Hat/Fedora and Novell/openSUSE.

I switched recently from Fedora to openSUSE, and I promise you all, that the main reason for me to use linux, is usability. With that follows stability, security and scalability. If one of these "guiding stars" is missing then my usability concept is gone.

For me, the issue is about a commercial company that's backing up the distribution. The company is the guarantee to back up these "guiding stars".

I rather use a linux distribution that can have bugreports from 100 000 000 users, than use a distribution that will be forgotten in a couple of years. Now, I don't believe this will happen with Red Hat and Fedora, but a user has to be blind if he/she doesn't follow what comes from the mothership, read Ubuntu (Canonical), Red Hat, Novell.

JohnnyLinux
17th August 2009, 07:19 PM
Lol. As interesting as this thread seems I have to umm... go do something. I will be back :D (not really I'm already bored)

JN4OldSchool
17th August 2009, 07:27 PM
Then you are wrong on a few counts. First of all Fedora is a Red Hat sponsored and community-supported open source collaboration project. What part of "community-supported" do you not understand?

the main reason for me to use linux, is usability. With that follows stability, security and scalability. If one of these "guiding stars" is missing then my usability concept is gone.

Good for you! And my main criteria is for Linux to remain completely modular and transparent. I detest being forced to use something that I cannot completely control. That is why I chose Arch Linux. But why would I complain about Fedora? Your problem is you simply do not understand what Fedora is and is meant to be. Neither does the dude whose blog you quoted. He is correct, CentOS is the clone of RHEL, not Fedora. Fedora is indeed a bleeding edge testbed. Take it or leave it. You are happy with SuSE. Good. More power to you. Why are you posting here then? Many people are happy with Fedora as it is. Just leave them be. This is open source, this is not market driven.

snakernetb
17th August 2009, 07:38 PM
For me, the issue is about a commercial company that's backing up the distribution. The company is the guarantee to back up these "guiding stars".

When I read this I could only think of one thing:

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?
[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing too]
Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.
Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of ****. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
Ted Nelson, Customer: [pause] Okay, I'll buy from you.
Tommy: Well, that's...
Tommy, Richard Hayden: ...What?

Than sums it up to me!

sonoran
17th August 2009, 07:39 PM
This reminds me of the scene in Animal House where Dean Wormer has just left the Delta House after reading them the Riot Act. Bluto (John Belushi) tries to whip up the boys with a pep talk, and then with a cry of "Who's with me? Let's go!" runs out of the room alone and no one else moves.

(I must admit, though, that Fedora has been on my Double Secret Probation List for some time...):eek:

Zebaztian
17th August 2009, 07:54 PM
Then you are wrong on a few counts. First of all Fedora is a Red Hat sponsored and community-supported open source collaboration project. What part of "community-supported" do you not understand?


".... You are happy with SuSE. Good. More power to you. Why are you posting here then? Many people are happy with Fedora as it is. Just leave them be. This is open source, this is not market driven.

Answers:

1. Community-supported, does that mean without interference or collaboration from Red Hat? (In this case I'm curious about Fedora, because it's a Fedora forum I'm within).

2.Just leave Fedora users alone? I'm interested in how deep the open source concept is in the minds of the Fedora users in a broader sense. For me I wish for a wider amalgamation of all linux distributions. But it's not only a matter of taste and distribution flavours. It's about the linux kernel, GNOME/KDE, netbooks, small devices like GPS or Android phones, package managers and doing the same things (or similar) as I can do in a Windows PC or with an Apple computer.
For me that's the freedom of choice. The rest is just a dialogue....

Zebaztian
17th August 2009, 07:55 PM
When I read this I could only think of one thing:

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?
[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing too]
Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.
Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of ****. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
Ted Nelson, Customer: [pause] Okay, I'll buy from you.
Tommy: Well, that's...
Tommy, Richard Hayden: ...What?

Than sums it up to me!
Fun :D
I want to fall asleep all warm and toasty inside, with a distrobox under my pillow.

JN4OldSchool
17th August 2009, 08:01 PM
You can dig through the Fedora project site, but this is probably a more straight forward answer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Project

It is an elusive question that i really dont think anyone fully understands, even those on the board. But in practice it seems to work like this. The Red Hat people have these nifty ideas about where Linux is going in the future. Like frustrated artists they need an outlet to express themselves. That outlet is Fedora. It is not officially Red Hat but Red Hat blesses it and supports it because the technological developments achieved by this project will eventually make it into not only RHEL but all other distros too. The results of this labor are released every six to eight months in a new Fedora version that is usually very buggy though also fairly stable. It will take three months to work the kinks out of the release but it is never fully fixed. Instead everything is carried over to the next release when we start again. Red Hat does not support this distro, it is community driven. Red Hat does retain control of the project though, probably to drive the direction. This is how I see it. You are likely to get some different answers from those actually in the Fedora project but I get the sense that none of them really know what is going on. Everyone has their own different ideas and without a strong sense of guidance Fedora seems to be wandering a bit.

stefan1975
17th August 2009, 08:05 PM
i wish you all the best with your choice for OpenSuSe. i hear it is actually a pretty decent distro. i could not see myself using it with the M$ deals and the release cycle they are using, but hey .... that is choice.

bye.
stefan

Dan
17th August 2009, 08:36 PM
Hmmm.

I want to fall asleep all warm and toasty inside, with a distrobox under my pillow. Having had at least one electric blanket burn out whilst I was sleeping under it ... I have absolutely no desire for anything "toasty" to ever again be involved in my sleeping arrangements! <..:p..>

JohnVV
17th August 2009, 09:18 PM
the above( 15 posts ) pretty much sum up what i tell new Linux users that install fedora as there FIRST Linux install .

But once you EXCEPT that fedora will be fedora . It simply is ( It is what it is) ,and not what one thinks it SHOULD be .( a bit of philosophical but...)
It is not the best for a new user , or the very experienced user , but great for the user who LIKES to tinker and FIX things . Stable ???? for the most part but not the best for the office .

i sum it up as fedora is for FUN and commercial software is for fun and WORK .

XaresAssassin
5th September 2009, 12:16 AM
but isn't Fedora being a testbed a good thing? since it helps out with other distros upstream.

Gödel
5th September 2009, 12:26 AM
but isn't Fedora being a testbed a good thing? since it helps out with other distros upstream.

Yes, exactly. Without fedora the linux distro choices would be a little boring to say the least.

scottro
5th September 2009, 12:29 AM
Yes. :)

I wonder if Adam will come across this thread. One of these days, I have to find his most elegant post about this whole thing.

Fedora users suffer so that Ubuntu can expand. I know Adam would disagree with that diagnosis, but basically, what happens is this. Fedora will throw in stuff, and they'll hear about what junk it is from all of us. However, while we're complaining, some are filing bug reports and getting these things so that they work well. Once Fedora users and devels hammer it into shape, the other distributions begin to adapt it.

The downside of this is that Fedora is often somewhat broken.

Demz
5th September 2009, 12:42 AM
Well, CRUD!

I was just in the middle of moving this ... thread, and it suddenly wasn't where it used to be. Quick work there, Bob ... but now I feel sooooo left out. <..:p..>

gettin slow in ya old age Dan :rolleyes:

The question is really: "Does Red Hat really care about its community?"

I'm intrested in all linux distributions progress, but I understand that to spread out in general, the symbios from a commercial company, is important as with Ubuntu(Canonical(/Debian, Red Hat/Fedora and Novell/openSUSE.

I switched recently from Fedora to openSUSE, and I promise you all, that the main reason for me to use linux, is usability. With that follows stability, security and scalability. If one of these "guiding stars" is missing then my usability concept is gone.

For me, the issue is about a commercial company that's backing up the distribution. The company is the guarantee to back up these "guiding stars".

I rather use a linux distribution that can have bugreports from 100 000 000 users, than use a distribution that will be forgotten in a couple of years. Now, I don't believe this will happen with Red Hat and Fedora, but a user has to be blind if he/she doesn't follow what comes from the mothership, read Ubuntu (Canonical), Red Hat, Novell. why would you bother using a Mono infested distro? do you like sleeping with one of the devils?

petermholmes
5th September 2009, 01:04 AM
I've tried OpenSuse. How anybody can live with that menu system is beyond me. If I wanted

KeyTurn->Clockwise->Engage->Starter->NotLater->NotSooner->Now

I'd just buy MicroSlop and get it over with.

The Ubuntu crowd got outright offended when I pointed out to them that child processes really were supposed to inherit the environment of the parent.

Fedora's just fine by me. Upgraded to 11 a few hours ago, the only thing that blew up was my Thunderbird. Easily fixed; just throw away the current one and chuck in a copy of the F10 rpm. Not kosher, I'm sure, but it worked.

JN4OldSchool
5th September 2009, 01:28 AM
eh, kosher enough. You will find that running Fedora is one big hack. We like things that way, keeps it fun. Hope you enjoy the experience. :)

RimFrost
6th September 2009, 06:46 PM
One thing i dont understand is why Red Hat became pay software with a company behind it.

Zebaztian
6th September 2009, 10:32 PM
Forget linux then, now I run OpenSolaris. Read my post about it here: http://www.lildude.co.uk/spotify-on-opensolaris/

My history of operating systems:

1. Running a fake pirate copy of Windows XP for a couple of years, made me tired of all the viruses, trojans, adwares, spywares… So I had to someting.

2. I read articles about different linuxdistributions and couldn’t believe a free OS was good, so I bought Xandros 3.0 (later upgraded to 3.1) and then I bought the upgrade to Xandros 4.0. But Xandros wasn’t a comfort experience after a while.

3. So I changed to Debian 3.0, also upgraded to 3.1 later. Debian is easy if you don’t tweak the system, but if you want to have the necessary things like flash, java and so on it can become painful.

4. So I downloaded the nr one OS on Distrowatch.com, Ubuntu 6.10 and liked it because it was easier to handle. So I followed Ubuntu with 7.04, 7.10 and to 8.04 but there it ended, because it became slower and slower and more bugs made it instable.

5. So where to go from there? Yes, to Fedora 9, which was a fresh wind, comparing to Ubuntu. Fedora 9 and 10 worked well without any problems (just minor ones). So I became a Fedora ambassador when Fedora 11 came. But with three major updating problems, where I had to reinstall everything. I didn’t do anything special, just an ordinary update the last time I had Fedora on my laptop. I really wanted a solution to it, but many more people was upset byt this: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=227728
I still have a stationary computer with Fedora on, so that I can check out what’s happening. The trick to stay out of trouble is to not update immediately.

6. So then I decided to try openSUSE, which I already installed on my girlfriends laptop, a Packard Bell R1980D. I tried to install Xubuntu, Puppy linux, Fedora, Limux Mint, PCLinuxOS and Mandriva, on her laptop, but openSUSE was the only OS that ran quite well . So I decided to install openSUSE myself, and rather satisfied in the beginning. But then Gnome, Firefox and their packagemanager Yast had problems.
And in openSUSE forums they are so fanatic about KDE, that when you ask a question about Gnome, you have very few answers. I don’t like KDE, but I like some KDE programs, like Tellico and Okular. I really hope that Gnome/OpenSolaris come up with a project like Okular http://okular.kde.org

7. So because that I really like Gnome, my head was spinning round. What linux OS are in favour of Gnome? The answer is Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora, but I was done with them. So I was thinking, what about giving OpenSolaris a new chance. My last experience with OpenSolaris was that it was very slow after just a short while. Could it be different this time? And yes, it seems to be that way. And is it stable? Certainly yes.
Stability comes first, and first comes also security. Is OpenSolaris secure? Yes, if NSA want’s to join the OpenSolaris community it’s something worth mention: http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/opensolaris_and_the_nsa_national

So it’s better to have a stable and secure OS, than a bleeding edge experience on evere new program that comes out. I will give Virtualbox a try to see if I can virtualize the OSes that I want to try. And maybe run the excellent KDE program Okular in that way.

Demz
7th September 2009, 12:21 AM
sounds to me you spit the dummy when something doesnt work for you an change distro's , wonder if you do the same with nappies

scottro
7th September 2009, 01:30 AM
Wow, where did that come from? Maybe the OP just needs to get work done. :D

It's like this for me. I run CentOS as my main desktop/server at home, because I generally try to keep it running, At work, I run F11, which was rather troublefree for me, simply because there are things that are more difficult to do with CentOS, for example, DVD backup, plus, some of our developers want Fedora due to newer versions of FF and other things.

However, if it was constantly breaking, I'd have to use something else too. .It seems to me though, and this is a VERY subjective opinion) that one reason I have fewer problems is because I make fewer demands on it. I don't use Gnome, I don't use NM. This caused some problems with audio from about Nov. 2007 till recently, but it seems, again, judging from what I see here, to have helped me avoid a great many issues.

Also, I run it on a relatively lowend machine--ATI video, but I don't worry about Compiz and all that, just run fluxbox, and on my laptops which have Intel video.

I used to rage against the machine, but I've either given up, or come to the conclusion that it is what it is, and for the forseeable future I'll be working with RH based systems to earn the rent money, so, that's how it is.

CSchwangler
7th September 2009, 07:32 AM
7. So because that I really like Gnome, my head was spinning round. What linux OS are in favour of Gnome? The answer is Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora, but I was done with them. So I was thinking, what about giving OpenSolaris a new chance. My last experience with OpenSolaris was that it was very slow after just a short while. Could it be different this time? And yes, it seems to be that way. And is it stable? Certainly yes.

Sorry to say that my experience with OpenSolaris is different from yours. I installed OpenSolaris 2009.06 on different computers and found that it still is painfully slow compared to linux distributinons.
On my last installation, right after first booting the system (default installation, no customizations), I got an update notification. I was surprised because I thought they wouldn't update until the next release but since the installed software was really outdated (Firefox 3.1 beta? Is that stable?) I happily updated. After restarting the system, I couldn't start Firefox anymore. Of course, I could have rolled back into the previous boot environment, but thats not the point, because this is meant to be a stable OS.

Demz
7th September 2009, 07:37 AM
One thing i dont understand is why Red Hat became pay software with a company behind it. Redhat is focusing on Server side of things but all your paying for is the Services of Redhat not redhat software as thats all free. Fedora is just a Project of redhats where us Dummies get to use upcoming techoology that may make its way into the next major RHEL release,

Finalzone
7th September 2009, 08:19 AM
Redhat is focusing on Server side of things but all your paying for is the Services of Redhat not redhat software as thats all free. Fedora is just a Project of redhats where us Dummies get to use upcoming techoology that may make its way into the next major RHEL release,

Red Hat has also desktop in enterprise environment. Note that enterprise desktop is not necessary the same as home desktop due to different needs.

RimFrost
7th September 2009, 10:58 AM
Ok.
As i see it, Red Hat is for companies while Fedora is aimed at home users.

Demz
7th September 2009, 12:05 PM
Red Hat has also desktop in enterprise environment. Note that enterprise desktop is not necessary the same as home desktop due to different needs.sure Redhat also do Desktop to but there main focus is Server. i think we all know Microsoft Dominates the Desktop, Redhat dont stand a chance with the desktop where as they do with the Server market.

Ok.
As i see it, Red Hat is for companies while Fedora is aimed at home users.

Fedora is just a Test bed for redhat Enterprise Linux an or its Desktop Linux also. if you want stability your best to install Ubuntu or CentOS

RimFrost
7th September 2009, 03:27 PM
Fedora is just a Test bed for redhat Enterprise Linux an or its Desktop Linux also. if you want stability your best to install Ubuntu or CentOS

CentOS i have been thinking of to test. But isnt theirs server OS? Or do they have normal desktop?

Demz
8th September 2009, 12:09 AM
CentOS is a clone of RHEL so it should have Desktop installation in it to as well as Server installation

scottro
8th September 2009, 12:36 AM
They have a desktop. That is, you can put in a standard Gnome Desktop, but they are more aimed towards the server market. This means they are extremely conservative about updating and abuot what is available in the repos, though there are several 3rd party repos.

Still, even with the 3rd party repos, package versions will be older than they are with Fedora and most other distributions. For example, even the rpmforge (the best known 3rd party repo) testing's version of hplip is on 2. something where the latest is 3.9.8.

There are usually ways to work around things--for example, dvdbackup doesn't work properly, but one can (just to give an example) work around it by installing dvdbackup (not through yum no longer in the RHEL5 rpmforge repo), then, that meets the dependency so that you can install lxdvdrip. Now, lxdvdrip has its own version of dvdbackup that works just as the normal one, but you call it with dvdbackup_lxdvdrip or something like that.

I'm using that particular example because I went through it the other day. The other workaround would be to simply use vobcopy, but the point is--many packages are older versions, but the issue can usually be solved.

However, for example, google's chromium browser won't run because it needs newer libraries.

So, if you wish to run CentOS as a desktop, you have to be prepared to do a bit of googling.

Hrrm, something stable and more up to date--maybe Ubuntu's LTS (Long Term Support).

On the other hand, if all you really need are the basics, CentOS might be fine for you.

LBCoder
8th September 2009, 05:04 PM
To help illustrate the position of Fedora wrt others:
http://airlied.livejournal.com/68097.html
As far as I can tell, Fedora Rawhide is to be the first way to easily get open source Radeon R6xx/7xx 3D and KMS... as simple as a "yum update". Definitely not stable yet even though it is clearly going to be part of a bone-stock F12. Here you go guinea pigs....

So the development trickle of the Radeon R6xx/7xx 3D drivers + KMS went/goes like this:
Documents from AMD --> coders --> crazy nutbar testers who compile everything from source --> Fedora Rawhide --> Fedora --> other non-enterprise Linux --> enterprise Linux.

So the Fedora "place" is for technically apt enthusiasts who want the most cutting edge of everything and who therefore would provide the best feedback in order to push the boundaries and accelerate the advancement of the overall platform. A big question to ask is this; where would Linux be without Fedora (or something else Fedora-like)? Note that Red Hat is one of the big driving forces behind R6xx/7xx driver development along with AMD.

stefan1975
8th September 2009, 07:25 PM
So the Fedora "place" is for apt enthusiasts

ha ha. he said apt and fedora in one sentence. i thought debian was for apt enthousiasts.