PDA

View Full Version : Little Shop Of Horrors



bob
9th April 2009, 12:59 AM
For those of you who missed the movie (lucky you!), this is a short post to tell you all about the Brand New Site that Bee (recently departed from the Forum) has created to explain just how terrible the Forum and Staff is here. Since he has had a few problems creating new aliases in an attempt to announce it himself, I thought I'd do it for him. So, without further ado, here's the link: http://honeybeenet.altervista.org/fedoraforum/?id=110000

Yes, folks, you can read Bee's impressions of the Forum, the Staff and even a bit about all of you! I'm sure he'd love you to comment too. He thrives on that.

stevea
9th April 2009, 01:37 AM
Bee's posts on this forum were certainly not my cup of tea Bob, but to be fair there have been some actions by admins on this forum that I find underhanded, self-serving and an egregious abuse of power. Perhaps even libelous. The sort of things that I would never expect from any reasonable and fair minded person. Miles from fair.

Your snarky comment

I'm sure he'd love you to comment too. He thrives on that. is yet another example of abuse from an admin. Bee can't respond to your personal ad hominem attacks since you've cut him off - so this sort of one sided criticism seems cowardly, unfair, abusive and an affront to any sense of fair play.

There should be some place for rational criticism or else things can never improve. Of course such criticisms is forbidden on this forum, which is a shame.

bob
9th April 2009, 01:50 AM
That comment is absolutely true. He loves communication and loves to debate. Nothing wrong with that. And, frankly, the kid's got talent. That site is a real beauty and on a par with many commercial sites. Bee certainly does respond to me directly, as he has my personal email address

Sure, there are egos at work here as there are anywhere. You have one, I do too. I try to be fair in my comments and think twice before pushing buttons, but I'll never be thought of as perfect, least of all by my wife.

And, Steve, if any member has a problem with something that's happened in the Forum, you can PM the offending staff member directly or take it to another one you've had good relationships with. Behind the scenes, we discuss, beat each other up, and sometimes agree. If not everyone agrees, we take a vote and the majority decision prevails. Sometimes that works in your favor, sometimes not.

Demz
9th April 2009, 02:09 AM
whens it time for closing anyone know?

bob
9th April 2009, 02:42 AM
Oh come on, now, Greg. You know most of us. I think that Bee has tried to do an honest job to portray us as he sees us and probably as some of the rest of the members see us. I'm pretty low down on the sludge pit right now. That's okay. Maybe there's some truth there; I'm not always so sure about the guy in the mirror either.

Bee and I continue to chat by email, BTW. I do like the kid and hope he's seriously going to do something with his talents that will earn him a good buck. Not sure that this is the best example I'd show a prospective client, of course, but it's a pretty good looking site and decently done - far better than my meager talents.

He's also made some friends in the Forum and wants them to know about the site. So rather than having him make multiple attempts to rejoin, PM and get banned for it, I thought it was a better thing to simply show the site and take the lumps that come from it.

So, here we are, named and blamed. Okay, that's an opinion and he's expressed it over there. That's his right. And, if some members want to make suggestions to improve things over here, then our ears are open. Naturally, I'm not saying to trash individual staff members in this thread. I'm simply saying that you can respond by "Well he does have some points" - "The Staff could be more receptive to ...." or "I've always thought this Guideline or Rule needs to be changed".

We're in the process of making loads of changes to the Forum, both in style and in content. Your opinions will be asked on many things, why not on us? Fire away!

stevea
9th April 2009, 02:48 AM
That comment is absolutely true. He loves communication and loves to debate. Nothing wrong with that. And, frankly, the kid's got talent. That site is a real beauty and on a par with many commercial sites. Bee certainly does respond to me directly, as he has my personal email address

The question isn't whether the comment is true or not Bob. I mostly agree with your assessment. The difficulty is that's it's intentionally insulting to Bee and is presented on a forum where the potentially injured party has no ability to reply. By analogy this seems just as cowardly and underhanded as sniping an individual behind his back at work. Your comments about Bee lead me to wonder what sort of one-sided cowardly cheap-shots will be posted if I am ever banned.



Sure, there are egos at work here as there are anywhere. You have one, I do too. I try to be fair in my comments and think twice before pushing buttons, but I'll never be thought of as perfect, least of all by my wife.

Yes we all have egos but we obviously have very different sense of fair play. I might call you a ^%*&%*&% to your face or on an open forum. I'd never do this behind your back or on a forum where you were explicitly excluded. If you don't see that you're exposing a serious character flaw.



And, Steve, if any member has a problem with something that's happened in the Forum, you can PM the offending staff member directly or ...

You know well I've been down this path Bob - and it's a completely pointless exercise. There is no effective redress. The admins aren't interested in even the most evenhanded requests.

In my own case an Admin posted to a closed thread in rebuttal to me and using incendiary comments - DAYS after it was closed. Since I don't believe that my position was adequately represented I asked that 1/ the thread be deleted, or 2/ the posts after thread close be deleted, or 3/ that all of my posts be deleted from the thread. On what planet is it fair to close a discussion to one position and then allow the rebuttal to continue ? How is it fair that I am silenced while another person is allowed to keep posting ? Why on earth can't all on my posts be deleted from a thread where I am OBVIOUSLY treated so unfairly ? All of these options were rejected by the Admins.

I expect a certain amount of "rough justice" on a forum. Sometimes a thread is closed abruptly, but I have never before seen a thread closed while an admin abuses his power to continue a rebuttal DAYS after the close. This is so obviously unfair that it requires no further comment. No amt of referral to other admins could elicit the tiniest amount of fair treatment or justice in this matter. Sheesh - I should think I'd be granted permission to delete my own posts. It's just plain wrong to publish only selected parts of m argument while an Admin continue to expound rebuttal.

So chat and beat each other up as you like - there is a basic lack of fair treatment by the Admins. I also see some threads by Admins that would probably be closed if posted by a generic user.

FWIW I have no clue why Bee was ejected for (too many smilies I suppose) - and I don't greatly care, except that there seems to be a pattern of cutting off the users "microphone" and then Admins coming in with one sided cheap-shots against the individual who can no longer counter. There is clearly a lack of fair play and just treatment.

-S

Demz
9th April 2009, 02:51 AM
our opinions on staff will just get us banned, so why bother mentioning that in the forum it'll only end up in a ban, but seriously why didnt you just let bee post his forum in here an then deal with him like you have, rather than make the post yourself bob? he's not here to defend himself. just goes to show you how weak some staff is,

at the end of the day, this is another richard hughes like thread, its only gonna get the fedoraforum bad publicity

bob
9th April 2009, 03:06 AM
I guess I phrased it badly if you both felt that was the intended meaning and I'm sure not going to modify it now. I'll live with that criticism and the inevitable way that it's going to seem to some people.

We don't let people just PM because they jumped back in under an alias. He might have asked me or some other staff to post it instead. He has some of our contact points. Frankly, if he had done it without permission, we'd have removed it, as you can imagine. So I posted it. You can go there, read, comment and make your own decisions based on what he says. It's as fair as I can be.

No, I don't want to get into specifics, as I've said, although smilies weren't involved.

And Steve, I know you're upset with me and others for that decision. We've talked about it through PM's and we're probably never going to see eye-to-eye on it. If I were in your place and couldn't respond, I might feel the same. Maybe not. As you know, the action was taken after discussion and voting by the staff as a body. We try to do that whenever it's needed and we do live with the vote's results. Again, I won't go into specifics here.

sideways
9th April 2009, 03:14 AM
Personally, I sympathise with you stevea.

This forum is a little unusual, in that it involves cutting edge "young" technology but the majority of the admins are rather "mature" and not exactly gurus, so sometimes the focus goes awry.

bob
9th April 2009, 03:16 AM
Why you young whipper-snapper!!!! GET OFF MY LAWN! :D

stevea
9th April 2009, 03:20 AM
No, I don't want to get into specifics, as I've said, although smilies weren't involved.

Huh - there must have been smilies if bee was involved ... ;)


And Steve, I know you're upset with me and others for that decision. We've talked about it through PM's and we're probably never going to see eye-to-eye on it. If I were in your place and couldn't respond, I might feel the same. Maybe not. As you know, the action was taken after discussion and voting by the staff as a body. We try to do that whenever it's needed and we do live with the vote's results. Again, I won't go into specifics here.

Fine, but the point is there was a clear , obvious and unequivocal violation of fair-play and justice by an Admin and contacting the Admins was a completely futile effort. PLEASE don't suggest that to PM Admins is a solution to any problem no matter how obvious and easily corrected. It would seem that the Admins stick together and no violation, no matter how clear-cut and easily remedied, is ever corrected.



-S

Demz
9th April 2009, 03:23 AM
where's the great schwim when ya need him? :D

Dan
9th April 2009, 03:32 AM
http://www.infosprite.com/

bob
9th April 2009, 03:34 AM
I understand your point of view. I will again tell you that all of your PM's were given to the staff before, during and after the decision and each time the staff was asked to look them over and consider them.

Steve, while you may not have had a chance to issue a rebuttal when you felt you should have, I think you've done an adequate job right here. The original subject wasn't important, it was the lack of ability to respond, right? Well, you've done it.

And, even though you don't have a way to know this, most PM's get a positive response. Not always, but it's a better way to express things than to make posts in a thread.

Demz
9th April 2009, 03:41 AM
http://www.infosprite.com/

thanks Dan, just learnt something bout twitter i didnt know

JN4OldSchool
9th April 2009, 04:37 AM
Our little honey bee is awful PO'd huh? He sure went through a lot of trouble, and for what? It is just a stupid forum.

I have my share of complaints, but at the end of the day I would say MOST of the staff are honest guys who just want to do their best for the forum. I cant argue with that, we are all human. Contrary to Bee's opinion, everything is not free nor democratic. If y'all choose to abuse your power then there is not a thing stopping any of you, except each other. So be it. As users we have the choice to accept that or leave it. I know I have picked up my marbles and left for the day many times. I suppose one day soon I will probably just disappear for good. Till then I will say what I want where I want and if I get banned in the process then so be it. Just a stupid forum... :)

stevea
9th April 2009, 04:56 AM
Steve, while you may not have had a chance to issue a rebuttal when you felt you should have, I think you've done an adequate job right here. The original subject wasn't important, it was the lack of ability to respond, right? Well, you've done it.

This completely misses the point, and I think your fellow Admins missed the point too when they considered my request for redress. I was treated in a grossly unfair and dishonest way by an admin. He abused his power to post rebuttal to a closed thread - and in fact re-edited his post several times for days afterward. The Admins would not lift a finger to rectify the injustice.

Where do I go to regain an assurance of future fair treatment on this forum ?

Since this event my participation in FF has dropped considerably. At first to cool-off, but now I have no interest in posting any good contentious arguments since some Admin can cheat the argument and other Admins will not stand for justice.

There is a rule in the guideline about respect for the Admins. Where is the rule about respect for users ?

Sorry - no ! I was treated in an abusive and unfair manner, first by one Admin, and then by the group of Admins. A few comments that this event took place is not justice.

-S

scottro
9th April 2009, 04:57 AM
Well, I think many, including myself, would consider that a loss.

sideways
9th April 2009, 05:08 AM
it is, just a forum, and I agree with scottro, stevea's input over the years has probably helped make it the success it is, so I hope he will continue to share his knowledge with us.

Demz
9th April 2009, 05:12 AM
i dont blame you stevea, this forum has gone downhill

brunson
9th April 2009, 05:35 AM
I participate in the forum quite a bit less now than I did when I first joined because of the capricious and uneven-handed nature of some (only a very few) in the administration here. I think the admins should consider their positions a privilege and exercise even greater restraint than is expected of the members.

After a fairly extended absence I returned to see "Moderator" and "Community Manager" under a couple names that gave me pause. Just because someone has longevity on the forum, years on the planet and a few thousand posts doesn't mean they've demonstrated the maturity and the restraint to be put an a position of authority. It feels like a bit of an "old boys club".

I've shown my ass on this forum more times than I'd like to admit to and, though I'd like to think that my technical contributions more than balance out these indiscretions, I really don't feel that I possess the right demeanor to moderate. Still, I think I'm better off than some that throw their weight around like a cudgel.

Whatever. I come here because I like to help people, I keep my friends in Real Life(tm).

Demz
9th April 2009, 05:39 AM
we all need Bart Simpson an Homer to moderate this forum . they'd prolly do a better job :D http://samueljscott.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/homer_simpson.jpg

metatron
9th April 2009, 05:41 AM
Bee is a guy?

Demz
9th April 2009, 05:43 AM
Bee is a guy?

last time i knew about bee he was :)

Hlingler
9th April 2009, 05:47 AM
Here's the bottom line: let bee post the same exact content on HIS forum that he posted here - the same exact content that ended up getting him banned - then all who wish to can go over to his forum, read it, puke/argue/debate or whatever, and see if it's more fun like that.

V

brunson
9th April 2009, 05:56 AM
Plus, he was using up all the smileys and not leaving any for the rest of us.

Hlingler
9th April 2009, 06:03 AM
Ah, now there's the real crux of the matter: smiley abuse. :rolleyes:

V

metatron
9th April 2009, 06:13 AM
I really don't have many problems with the people on this forum, and I've never had bad experiences with the mods personally. But if this is an issue, one suggestion I have is when choosing mods, have a democratic election. Let the forum members decide.

Demz
9th April 2009, 08:24 AM
better yet, let Obama decide :D

pete_1967
9th April 2009, 10:13 AM
Fine, but the point is there was a clear , obvious and unequivocal violation of fair-play and justice by an Admin and contacting the Admins was a completely futile effort. PLEASE don't suggest that to PM Admins is a solution to any problem no matter how obvious and easily corrected. It would seem that the Admins stick together and no violation, no matter how clear-cut and easily remedied, is ever corrected.

Making mistakes is never a problem, but not learning from those mistakes is.

This reminds me of about a year ago when certain admins took the habit of closing the thread and continue posting to it like it was still open (several of them over prolonged period of time) but after it was pointed out that that's unfair and abusive practise, they did stop it.

Let's just hope that they learned from this mistake as well.

Demz
9th April 2009, 10:20 AM
Making mistakes is never a problem, but not learning from those mistakes is.

This reminds me of about a year ago when certain admins took the habit of closing the thread and continue posting to it like it was still open (several of them over prolonged period of time) but after it was pointed out that that's unfair and abusive practise, they did stop it.

Let's just hope that they learned from this mistake as well.

they didnt sad to say :(

pete_1967
9th April 2009, 10:32 AM
they didnt sad to say :(
Hmmm, which one you mean?

At least I haven't seen so extensive abuse of posting to closed threads as was at time I am referring to. Or maybe I just don't read kind of threads where it happens, or just don't pay attention to it anymore...

Ah well, here I was mistakenly assuming they did learn :D

bob
9th April 2009, 11:28 AM
Okay, there was ONE thread where everyone had a bit of fun with the "open", "no closed", "is it closed" chatter for a page and a half, but it was just a one-time fun thing, not meant to harm anyone. Hey, we're human. We drink beer. Sometimes, we're idiots.

And, in a way, it's good to air this all out. I'm sure that there have been many time you've felt that negative comment about any CM or Admin was a sure-fire ticket to Ubuntu. Well, we still don't appreciate public trashing about a decision and I can't say you'll get a bouquet of roses in response. We'd appreciate a PM a lot more.

Personally, I like getting the 'job reviews' from members, both good and bad. Our compass can swing a bit to one side without negative feedback. A kick in the butt can get us moving back on the right road. For those of you who have been in management or at least have had performance reviews, the news isn't always good, but it does give you pause for the bad and reinforcement for the good. Next time, you'll do better.

Demz
9th April 2009, 11:49 AM
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cgr0336l.jpg good cartoon this , i suggest every admin/CM click on it :D an also this http://amadeo.blog.com/repository/955215/3082952.gif

bob
9th April 2009, 12:01 PM
First one's got a copyright over the text, illegible. I'm sure I've got the general drift though. Cute.

ilja
9th April 2009, 12:06 PM
I don't have my own section on the webpage :( :(

Demz
9th April 2009, 12:18 PM
given time ilja an im sure you will have one :)

JN4OldSchool
9th April 2009, 02:43 PM
Poor Bert and Scott were overlooked too. Come to think of it, there are a whole slew of admins that he overlooked. Crikey, they outnumber us! :p

PatMcLJr
9th April 2009, 03:10 PM
I'll miss bee.
I registered on his forum and posted too.

No I don't agree with everything he posted but it was always a cause to thought.
I definitely don't agree with his "wall of shame list" and my comment on it will end here.

Pat Jr.

JN4OldSchool
9th April 2009, 03:14 PM
I think his wall of shame list is actually pretty perceptive in an extremely exaggerated and negative way. But it does us all good to look at ourselves critically now and then and to know what others think of us. Not that it makes any big difference, but we should all strive to be as true to ourselves as we can be.

sideways
9th April 2009, 03:25 PM
To set everyone straight, bee posted many sensible, intelligent and entertaining posts. I engaged with him on several occasions no problems. Then he went a little off the hook and posted hateful and provocative statements in his social group on this site, despite warnings (and chances to desist) he continued and also amused himself by registering names such as <admin>_is_dead and sending PMs announcing he was in control not us.

Charming eh? A little cuckoo perhaps.

JN4OldSchool
9th April 2009, 03:37 PM
I wasnt around for the exact incident that got bee banned, but I was a very regular participant in his social group. I have to say here that I am very disappointed at how bee handled that. I appreciate the amount of latitude we were given to discuss volatile issues and maybe explore new insights into other's beliefs. But in order to do this we MUST have respect for each other. We can call an IDEA stupid, but personal attacks should NEVER be allowed. Bee just does not seem to know where to draw that line. Maybe age will give him wisdom in this matter, I sure hope so. But I dont think many would argue that he did not get what he deserved. In fact, I think management was very tolerant of him.

Please do not get me wrong, this is not an attack on Bee. While we are complete opposites on most issues I completely respect Bee and very much like him. But like the times I have been banned he sealed his own fate and needs to realize that. It is great to speak out against perceived injustice, but just be prepared to suffer the consequences.

schwim
9th April 2009, 03:46 PM
What's this? Dissention amongst the ranks? Someone call Wayne in to publicly humiliate some of the members until we get order!

Imagine my surprise when I saw my referrers for infosprite this morning with hits from a public forum category. I'm used to the bosses in the bat cave linking to me, but public mention? Well, squeeze my butt cheeks and call me Heidi, I'm ready for prime time!

As much as I would love to help either side just to keep this thread alive longer, I must say that you all are doing phenomenally and my help here is hardly needed.

Just remember folks, forum alts never work.

thanks,
json

Evil_Bert
9th April 2009, 04:00 PM
Hey schwim, good to see you. If you're wandering why I haven't commented recently, it's because I forgot what e-mail address I used to login - I'll start guessing soon (I only have so many e-mail addresses). You can't get rid of me that easily. ;)

One thing - does 'forum alt' = 'alt nic'?

schwim
9th April 2009, 04:10 PM
heya sir :)

go_cadel@ii*******

Now go do your part. You're actually the only competent portion of discussion on the site and I can't afford to lose you.

thanks,
json

Evil_Bert
9th April 2009, 04:16 PM
Thanks. That would have been way down the list!

Nokia
9th April 2009, 05:43 PM
:(I though we were on FedoraForum and not on Pet-My-Ego-Forum over here... :(

metatron
9th April 2009, 05:49 PM
I think his wall of shame list is actually pretty perceptive in an extremely exaggerated and negative way. But it does us all good to look at ourselves critically now and then and to know what others think of us. Not that it makes any big difference, but we should all strive to be as true to ourselves as we can be.

Yeah, sometimes we need to look at a caricature of ourselves for our imperfections to really get through our thick heads. Caricatures for some reason are able to permeate our egos and make us say "oh, I do have that flaw." For instance, I got a caricature drawn of myself down the shore when I was younger and I said "hey, maybe I do have big ears."

Dan
9th April 2009, 07:16 PM
As always, you're very welcome, schwim.

lazlow
9th April 2009, 08:23 PM
Bob

While I do not agree with Bee on a lot of points, that one thread was NOT the first thread to go through the repeated open/close thread issue. Having had a thread of mine closed multiple times (which three different CMs could not explain) and then some of the personal attacks that followed (CMs), I can understand the level of frustration that can be generated. This sort of behavior, which has been growing, is the major reason why a lot of individuals (myself included) no longer post here very often. This is a trend that needs to be reversed.

Lazlow

Nokia
9th April 2009, 08:35 PM
Such a shame that egos are one of the biggest problems on the forum...and the ones without a fix, apparently. :( I'm sure mistake have been and will be made, but let's not get stuck in an eye-for-an-eye circle.

bob
9th April 2009, 09:30 PM
Thanks for the comments and I do see that you've expressed some common issues and concerns. Maybe we should have had a better means to chat for awhile now. I can only wonder how many others won't be coming back to explain. While we often get the "Goodbye, Fedora's bad" threads, we really haven't had the "Goodbye, The Staff's bad" threads and perhaps we needed to hear just that.

For me, "message received, loud and clear". Thanks.

With this in mind, Dan's made it a bit easier: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/group.php?groupid=22 Oh, and before loading up for the kill shots, please read this too: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?p=1191671#post1191671 (For this Social Group, Rule 11 is a bit more tolerant)

Demz
10th April 2009, 12:21 AM
always good to see schwim around here

scottro
10th April 2009, 12:27 AM
Yup, I miss those viagra ads of his.

As for the rest of this, yeah, there are things that should probably be changed, or at least modified.

However, as for the Draconian attitude on religion and politics, sorry, but I think that's a good thing, especially for a forum that is supposed to be basically technically oriented.

JN4OldSchool
10th April 2009, 12:52 AM
Yup, I miss those viagra ads of his.

As for the rest of this, yeah, there are things that should probably be changed, or at least modified.

However, as for the Draconian attitude on religion and politics, sorry, but I think that's a good thing, especially for a forum that is supposed to be basically technically oriented.

This might surprise many people, but I agree. The problem is not the rule, it is the extent to which it is enforced and to whom it applies. A little latitude has traditionally been given here as long as things did not get out of hand. The problem lies with people who do not know where to draw the line, and I admit that I have purposely pushed the boundary here in the past as a matter of point.

The problem is, if you try to stamp out anything that could possibly cause any offense to anyone then you couldnt say a single thing. One of my problems in the past was if someone can put a quote of say...Darwin, though it could be Marx, Bush, or anyone in their signature, then on what grounds do you keep me from quoting Jesus Christ in my sig? I have seen the management bring up politics in this forum at least as much as the users. Rules are fine, but they should be a guide, not a way of life. Likewise, if one or two of them get broken in the natural course of things and no one takes offense or it does not cause any problems, then just let it slide. One thing the Mint forum has taught me is that most people, if given half a chance, will moderate themselves. Granted this does not always hold true, but we can all see who the troublemakers are. Most times if a couple members get in a heated dispute if you just let them slug it out for a few posts they will eventually end up buying each other a drink and agree to disagree.

Ah well...I am starting to preach and I aint sayin nothing y'all dont already know.

What is the solution? I just ask that anyone in power think twice before throwing their weight around. And remember that while games like continually posting on a closed thread might be amusing to you (I thought it was funny) some of us who do not have that power will begrudge you of it.

scottro
10th April 2009, 01:02 AM
I remember there was one that was a joke after awhile. The one to which Stevea was referring was simply someone posting as the thread was being closed.

As for the religion bit, you've almost always, as far as I can remember, been quite reasonable. I do remember one time when you asked why the thread hadn't been closed (in the thread itself) and my answer was that it seemed to be sorting itself out--and, IIRC, that was due to your restraint.

Many times it's a judgement call. We really dislike closing threads most of the time, and if it seems to be getting back to an equilibrium, will leave them open. Again, IIRC, which I may not, the thread to which I'm referring had someone say something, you refrained from arguing back, there was a mention to stay away from it by staff, and then it went on with whatever it was originally about--of course, I've completely forgotten what that was.

JN4OldSchool
10th April 2009, 01:14 AM
I remember there was one that was a joke after awhile. The one to which Stevea was referring was simply someone posting as the thread was being closed.

I beg to differ, the post was clearly made days after it was closed, but let's forget that. I was actually referring to the joke thread you mentioned, I think it was about a week ago, maybe not even that long. The point here though is many times many of us would like to say something else after the post is closed. Closed means closed, that should apply to everyone.


As for the religion bit, you've almost always, as far as I can remember, been quite reasonable. I do remember one time when you asked why the thread hadn't been closed (in the thread itself) and my answer was that it seemed to be sorting itself out--and, IIRC, that was due to your restraint.

Scott, I think I remember what you are referring to, and I have to apologize because I said that in sarcasm. Also, I believe it was of a political nature. The truth is I enjoy talking about my beliefs and hearing about other people's beliefs. You can not offend me and I welcome the chance to defend my point of view (apologetics). But, I do agree that the main Linux forum is not the place for preaching or evangelizing or arguing about religion or politics.


Many times it's a judgement call. We really dislike closing threads most of the time, and if it seems to be getting back to an equilibrium, will leave them open. Again, IIRC, which I may not, the thread to which I'm referring had someone say something, you refrained from arguing back, there was a mention to stay away from it by staff, and then it went on with whatever it was originally about--of course, I've completely forgotten what that was.

Maybe it was something else then, I dont remember. But I respect other people's views and while I would like to talk them into seeing things my way, of course, I am not going to alienate them along the way.

Demz
10th April 2009, 01:23 AM
totally agree wqith you on this point Sean
I beg to differ, the post was clearly made days after it was closed, but let's forget that. I was actually referring to the joke thread you mentioned, I think it was about a week ago, maybe not even that long. The point here though is many times many of us would like to say something else after the post is closed. Closed means closed, that should apply to everyone.
goees to show that even the CM's or Admins cannot follow there own rules

scottro
10th April 2009, 02:12 AM
Ok, I believe we're talking about two different threads here. There was one thread that got quite acrimonious, where, as one admin was closing it, another was posting some more rather acrimonious comments.

Then, there was another one that was closed, and then accidentally reopened, then closed, then opened, and that was the one that was a joke. These are two different things--one was an honest mistake, and the person who felt that they had been cut off by the thread being closed PM'ed just about everyone who'd participated in the thread, to give his final arguments. The other one was nothing like that.

Demz, as you well know from the time when you were helping us as CM, there are times when we accidentally did something at the same time another CM was doing it. Stuff happens, and most of the time, it's harmless. The rare occasions when it isn't harmless are discussed at length by the staff. In the case of the acrimonious thread, it was eventually decided to leave it as it was with the thought that doing so would do the least harm.

Could we have possibly made a mistake? Errm, yeah, happens all the time. As I think a few of us have commented in this thread (us in this case, being staff) we are human. As such, we get sidetracked, we have prejudices, and all that human type stuff.

Back @jn4, I think I missed the sarcasm. I've had a nasty cold mixed with stressful work week and so my usually razor sharp mind has dulled. :D

Demz
10th April 2009, 02:21 AM
as Sean has said, an i agree fully,, Closed means closed, that should apply to everyone. , maybe that should be another rule to add to Vince's Rules , if this forum is gonna get better, that one thing needs to be addressed by staff that abuse there powers. i know i did it when i was a CM but its time to clean up the mess

bob
10th April 2009, 02:24 AM
Yes, a few months ago, that was too often the case (posting multiple replies on closed threads). There's been chats about that many times and we do try to stop posting once a thread's been closed for some reason. It does look like "piling on" when we continue and nobody can respond. I think it's been nearly eliminated in the last month or so, as it's been agreed to by everyone that it's a bad practice.

As to Religion and Politics, yep, there's boundaries and they aren't always as clear as we'd like them to be. Sean, I think I asked you by PM to drop a quote, right? I've asked others too. Sometimes we don't even see a quote in quite the same way, so if there's something that offends an individual, please PM one of us and let's look at it. Most members are quite cooperative and don't want to offend others.

It's also tough for us to draw the line on references in a thread. Some things seem benign and I've let them ride. Some other CM or Admin might have taken a harder line or a more lenient one. Again, if you disagree, please take the time to PM for an explanation and review. It won't necessarily change, but the staff will discuss it.

Demz
10th April 2009, 02:33 AM
if its not gonna change why bother sending a PM to about the issue(s)

scottro
10th April 2009, 02:40 AM
Sigh, Demz, you are cynical these days, aren't you?

Bob didn't say it's "not" going to change. He said it won't necessarily change.

Let's take an exaggerated example. You post something about the US government and how bad it is.
The thread is closed as it's political.

You PM us saying why did you close it, you're USA-centric.

Now, in that case, no, it's not going to change.

Also, in my experience, at least, often, when we do things in a hurry, without explanation (as some of us do have lives, though not necessarily me), it causes bad feeling. I remember a thread where I edited what I considered a helpful, but somewhat borderline post. The OP PM'd me, rather angrily. I'd edited and commented on it while in a hurry.

I sent him back an explanation, and after that, he was fine with it. In this case, it didn't change, it was simply a matter of him not knowing why I had done something--which was my fault, I hadn't really explained it well at all, but once he understood, he agreed.

So, sometimes, simply taking more time to explain can make all the difference. I believe it's the Talmud that says, "The difference between love and hate is understanding," but regardless of the source of the statement, it can be true, whether in profound things, or relatively trivial (in the context of a life) things, like a tech forum.

Demz
10th April 2009, 03:11 AM
understood it gets closed if its political or religious but it shouldnt be allowed to take advantage of by CM's admins that keep posting in that/those threads

as im aware of, correct me if im wrong, you ( the CM or Admin ) must PM the poster to get him/her to edit the post before the CM/Admin does? so i can understand why the poster got angry scott, i would have to. you should have sent him the PM before you decided to edit it, another abuse of power

scottro
10th April 2009, 03:36 AM
I don't believe it's a rule to PM the OP--it depends upon circumstance, and in this case, I felt it important to remove the possibly offensive portions of the post.

I repeat, the OP completely understood and agreed, once he'd received an explanation. At the time, I was on my way to work, so had to do it quickly.

I'm going to say it one more time, though I think (and hope) it's clear to just about everyone.

Generally speaking, when a thread is closed, it's closed. The thread where people were posting days afterwards had become a joke. The thread that really aggravated Stevea was a completely different thread, where, in that case, it was debatable whether the final post should have been removed or not, but, the fact that it happened was completely accidental, and really wasn't as flagrant an abuse of power as has been indicated.

As for the one where staff posted silly things days after it was closed---was it an abuse of power in any way, shape, or form? Probably. Did your teachers in school ever do things, just for fun, that they wouldn't have allowed you to do? Did it make you laugh or tick you off?

If I went now, and found a closed thread, and posted to it something like
this

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/funny-pictures-cat-makes-fun-of-dog.jpg

Would that be abuse, or simply infantile?

JN4OldSchool
10th April 2009, 06:17 PM
Heh, did y'all see, Bee won!

http://honeybeenet.altervista.org/fedoraforum/?id=111000

Bee, why did you not mention your old buddy JN? Ah well, you did give me a private invite and I appreciate that. Your site is bookmarked right next to Schwim's blog. There are starting to be a lot of Fedora Refugees. Heh. Heh heh...

edit: BTW Bee check the contact me part of your site! I wanted to have a word with you but couldnt get through. :( I will eventually join your forum though looks like a honey place. I couldnt help but get a kick out of your legal disclaimer when you go to join. Hope you wouldnt ban me for talking about religion?

Nokia
10th April 2009, 06:23 PM
I don't think it's about winning...
Maybe it's time to move on and stop living by looking only backwards.

Demz
11th April 2009, 12:18 AM
Heh, did y'all see, Bee won!

http://honeybeenet.altervista.org/fedoraforum/?id=111000

Bee, why did you not mention your old buddy JN? Ah well, you did give me a private invite and I appreciate that. Your site is bookmarked right next to Schwim's blog. There are starting to be a lot of Fedora Refugees. Heh. Heh heh...

edit: BTW Bee check the contact me part of your site! I wanted to have a word with you but couldnt get through. :( I will eventually join your forum though looks like a honey place. I couldnt help but get a kick out of your legal disclaimer when you go to join. Hope you wouldnt ban me for talking about religion?

LOL....i didnt even bother to read it all on his site

robert-e
11th April 2009, 04:29 AM
Geez; I have no internet for a week, and look! All joking aside, and not getting involved with "fanning the flames", I have one request: Can someone restore the "beesu" How-To? While I don't use this utility, it would surely help those who so inclined.
Thank you,
Bob

Demz
11th April 2009, 04:39 AM
didnt bee create that howto? if so he's banned robert, so thats probably why it was dropped as being sticky?

sideways
12th April 2009, 03:22 AM
Geez; I have no internet for a week, and look! All joking aside, and not getting involved with "fanning the flames", I have one request: Can someone restore the "beesu" How-To? While I don't use this utility, it would surely help those who so inclined.
Thank you,
Bob

it's restored, but bear in mind that bee may be the only developer reviewing the code, use at your own risk,

Demz
12th April 2009, 03:23 AM
it's restored, but bear in mind that bee may be the only developer reviewing the code, use at your own risk,
good scare compaign there side

sideways
12th April 2009, 03:24 AM
shut up demz or i'll ban you ;)

Demz
12th April 2009, 03:29 AM
/me does the elvis presley leg shakin :D

stevea
12th April 2009, 04:02 AM
good scare compaign there side

There is a good reason to be scared.

I reviewed the the beesu code months ago and PMed some objections to Bee. It was not a completely objective & fair review - I did have an axe to grind. OTOH you want code that deals with security reviewed harshly for a good reason.

I won't detail my objection since there is/was a clear and exploitable security hole. I'll just say that the code preforms a lot of string manipulation to create a command to execute with privilege. By changing an environment, variable then the program may be made to execute an entirely different command with privilege. Not completely simple to exploit, but not too hard either. Bee may have corrected this - no idea.

Bee had some reason to think that beesu was a wonderful tool. I can't understand why the new and potentially dangerous binary was needed at all. You can perform (IMO) essentially the same by just creating a /etc/security/console.apps and /etc/pam.d scripts for the time-tested and well debugged su or sudo binary. This is a far less dangerous approach. Code like this absolutely needs a harsh and deep review.

---
Anyway the real security hole wasn't created by Bee who sincerely attempted to create a useful tool with a modest problem. It's created by the ridiculous ease with which Bee was able to insert a privileged app into the Fedora repository apparently without any formal review ! That's absolutely CRAZY - KOOKIE - NUTZ !!!!

Obviously with a little work some evil-doer could write an nice widely used app with a surreptitious Trojan feature. Whoever controls the admission of code into the Fedora repo is obviously asleep at the switch. A year or two later the Trojan comes to life and Fedora specifically and Linux generally gets a big security black eye.


So I feel that inserting any security related Fedora package that is not related to a stable trustable project ... RH, Mozilla, KDE, Gnome, OpenSSL, OpenSSH or some other long-standing project .... is tap dancing on a landmine.

-S

Demz
12th April 2009, 04:11 AM
There is a good reason to be scared.

I reviewed the the beesu code months ago and PMed some objections to Bee. It was not a completely objective & fair review - I did have an axe to grind. OTOH you want code that deals with security reviewed harshly for a good reason.

I won't detail my objection since there is/was a clear and exploitable security hole. I'll just say that the code preforms a lot of string manipulation to create a command to execute with privilege. By changing an environment, variable then the program may be made to execute an entirely different command with privilege. Not completely simple to exploit, but not too hard either. Bee may have corrected this - no idea.

Bee had some reason to think that beesu was a wonderful tool. I can't understand why the new and potentially dangerous binary was needed at all. You can perform (IMO) essentially the same by just creating a /etc/security/console.apps and /etc/pam.d scripts for the time-tested and well debugged su or sudo binary. This is a far less dangerous approach. Code like this absolutely needs a harsh and deep review.

---
Anyway the real security hole wasn't created by Bee who sincerely attempted to create a useful tool with a modest problem. It's created by the ridiculous ease with which Bee was able to insert a privileged app into the Fedora repository apparently without any formal review ! That's absolutely CRAZY - KOOKIE - NUTZ !!!!

Obviously with a little work some evil-doer I could write an nice widely used app with a surreptitious Trojan feature. Whoever controls the admission of code into the Fedora repo is obviously asleep at the switch. A year or two later the Trojan comes to life and Fedora specifically and Linux generally gets a big security black eye.


So I feel that inserting any security related Fedora package that is not related to a stable trustable project ... RH, Mozilla, KDE, Gnome, OpenSSL, OpenSSH or some other long-standing project .... is tap dancing on a landmine.

-S
understand now, thanks for the explanation steve, an they say how bad webmin is but they let beesu into the repo's.

sideways
12th April 2009, 05:22 AM
read the post by stevea everyone

beesu is an app we never knew we needed, and we don't.

Firewing1
6th September 2009, 09:52 PM
Thread closed