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Nullack
6th February 2009, 06:20 AM
I tried a pre Alpha 1 release and it didnt allow me to boot from an EXT4 partition during the anaconda install.

Now that Alpha 1 has been released, can EXT4 be run on the boot partition? Like Ubuntu.

scottro
6th February 2009, 06:30 AM
Nope, and that's covered in the release notes.
(In part because of my nagging.) :)

Rahul, if you see this post, I *told* ya it was going to happen. @Null@ack, that's not an insult to you, it's that I predicted that Ubuntu users, who have a grub that can boot the ext4 partition, would get annoyed when they chose ext4 and found that they would need a separate /boot partition.

Fedora is working on getting a version of grub in there that can boot ext4, but it might not make it into F11.

They're not satisfied with its (that version of Grub's) stabilty, and felt that it was better to make sure that the computer will consistently boot. :)

I don't know the differences between it and the version that Ubuntu is using, nor whether the Ubuntu folks consider it stable or just figured, what the heck, let's take a chance.

Demz
6th February 2009, 06:38 AM
so EXT4 by default may not be in Fedora11? , should be used to having features dropped , :D

this would explain i guess that Ubuntu are going to use ext4 by default in 9.10

this is pretty silly the Redhat/Fedora Devs mention ext4 default in Fedora11 on the feature list an yet they dunno if its gonna work in Grub?.. you'd think they'd test it in whatever Grub version before mentioning it to be default in Fedora11's feature list

what they should have put on is this

ext4 Default file system? that way its no certainty that it was/wasnt gonna make it as Default

Nullack
6th February 2009, 08:01 AM
9.04 isnt EXT4 by default - its a manual configuration item thats optional.

GRUB in 9.04 is not GRUB2.

Thanks for the clarification.

Demz
6th February 2009, 08:06 AM
anyone gonna use GRUB2?.. last i saw on the Grub mailing list an i asked Rahul about this why Fedora doesnt use Grub2 at the moment is because its to buggy if you look at the Grub mailing list

SlowJet
6th February 2009, 09:02 AM
so EXT4 by default may not be in Fedora11? , should be used to having features dropped , :D

this would explain i guess that Ubuntu are going to use ext4 by default in 9.10

this is pretty silly the Redhat/Fedora Devs mention ext4 default in Fedora11 on the feature list an yet they dunno if its gonna work in Grub?.. you'd think they'd test it in whatever Grub version before mentioning it to be default in Fedora11's feature list

what they should have put on is this

ext4 Default file system? that way its no certainty that it was/wasnt gonna make it as Default

The F11 default partitioning choice(meaning the user does not need to deal with partitioning at all on a single disk setup.) is

a /boot of approx 200MB on ext3 partition type 83

LVM on partition type 8e made of a PV-VG with 2 LV's
One swap for 2GB
One for / formatted as ext4 for the rest of the VG space.

It is very efficent and secure, and with ext4, faster by an noticeable pecentage.

The ext3 /boot is mentioned 2 or 3 times in the release notes.

SJ

Demz
6th February 2009, 09:37 AM
i dont think i'll lose any sleep over it if ext4 gets dropped from being default. as long as presto makes it in thats all i care about

SlowJet
6th February 2009, 10:14 AM
Actually you could loose several hours of sleep per year waiting for ext3 to ext3 copies. :)

SJ

Demz
6th February 2009, 10:49 AM
thats true, it is rather slow but i rekon i can cope with it by having a beer while it finishes its job

drunkahol
6th February 2009, 04:28 PM
Aw man - I hope ext4 makes it in as default. Shame to lose it on something as simple as this!

Agreed that presto is a bigger concern though :-)

Cheers

Duncan

Demz
6th February 2009, 11:46 PM
IMO coming to think of it, they should push ext4 as default for fedora12 till they actually test this other Grub out which may have to be done internally till Fedora12 testing gets underway

SlowJet
7th February 2009, 12:09 AM
Nope, and that's covered in the release notes.
(In part because of my nagging.) :)

Rahul, if you see this post, I *told* ya it was going to happen. @Null@ack, that's not an insult to you, it's that I predicted that Ubuntu users, who have a grub that can boot the ext4 partition, would get annoyed when they chose ext4 and found that they would need a separate /boot partition.

Fedora is working on getting a version of grub in there that can boot ext4, but it might not make it into F11.

They're not satisfied with its (that version of Grub's) stabilty, and felt that it was better to make sure that the computer will consistently boot. :)

I don't know the differences between it and the version that Ubuntu is using, nor whether the Ubuntu folks consider it stable or just figured, what the heck, let's take a chance.

The default install would be a seperate /boot of ext3.

How ever, the LiveCD had an error and the default does not make ext4 anyway.

So the op would have had to deliberatly make a / that contained /boot and formated with ext4.

So far, every comment in this thread about the ext4 default install has been wrong. :)

SJ

Demz
7th February 2009, 12:19 AM
Eric Sandeen tends to feel ext4 as default in fedora11 will make it from his post on the devel list


Joshua C. wrote:
> > 2009/2/6 cornel panceac <cpanceac@gmail.com>:
>> >> ok, thnx a lot.
>> >>
>> >> 2009/2/6 Jeremy Katz <katzj@redhat.com>
>>> >>> On Friday, February 06 2009, cornel panceac said:
>>>> >>>> it is written in the release notes that ext4 is the new default file
>>>> >>>> system.
>>>> >>>> however, i've just installed f11alpha-kde from live cd and ext4 was
>>>> >>>> nowhere
>>>> >>>> to be found. is this a bug? or is it according to the plan?
>>> >>> The live image ended up being composed as an ext3 filesystem due to a
>>> >>> bug that was being tripped over and the live install works by copying
>>> >>> the filesystem from the live image. Hence, it ends up just following
>>> >>> whatever was built, which was ext3 in this case
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Jeremy

> > But the ext4 will be the default in f11, won't it?

So far so good I think ... (other than that livecd problem!)

-Eric

SlowJet
7th February 2009, 12:27 AM
Eric Sandeen tends to feel ext4 as default in fedora11 will make it from his post on the devel list

It has already made it into the default install.
But it didn't work in the LiveCD due to a bug while creating the LiveCD.

(I assume the DVD would create a default install that has the / LVM LV as ext4.)

Nowhere does it say in the release notes or documentation that F11 will use ext4 on the /boot for default install.
The release notes do say to use ext3 on the /boot which would imply /boot or / with a dir of /boot..

SJ

Demz
7th February 2009, 12:28 AM
i dare say so they'll do a patch job on the release notes eventually :D

SlowJet
7th February 2009, 12:35 AM
From the release notes
The ext4 file system has been an experimentally supported option since Fedora 9, and is now the default file system for Fedora 11 Alpha. More details and a comprehensive list of new features for ext4 is available ...:


Backward compatibility issues
Backward compatibility for ext4 to ext2/3 is limited. If you convert a file system formatted with ext2/3 to the new ext4 system, be aware that converting back to ext2/3 can be difficult in some situations. Also, the GRUB boot loader does not yet support ext4 in this release. Use ext2/3 for your /boot partition instead.

SJ

Demz
7th February 2009, 01:18 AM
well im sure they'll probably have tis new Grub or patch in Grub by the time the beta comes out so hopefully it'll support ext4

RahulSundaram
7th February 2009, 12:31 PM
so EXT4 by default may not be in Fedora11? , should be used to having features dropped , :D

this would explain i guess that Ubuntu are going to use ext4 by default in 9.10

this is pretty silly the Redhat/Fedora Devs mention ext4 default in Fedora11 on the feature list an yet they dunno if its gonna work in Grub?.. you'd think they'd test it in whatever Grub version before mentioning it to be default in Fedora11's feature list

what they should have put on is this

ext4 Default file system? that way its no certainty that it was/wasnt gonna make it as Default

Ext4 is still planned to be the default. Alpha is a early development snapshot and doesn't include all the features yet including but not limited to GRUB support. A patch already exists and will be pushed in after the developer is comfortable with the testing. GRUB support only affects what /boot is under and it isn't a major thing at all since /boot is a separate partition by default.

There is nothing silly about having development plans in the open and yes, sometimes plans do change as it is does in any project. The benefit of openness outweighs any other disadvantages. Ext4 is provided for testing and there is always an element of uncertainty as noted in the release notes. A lot of this depends on testing and feedback from others.

sideways
7th February 2009, 03:17 PM
You'll still need a separate /boot partition unless they add support for lvm to grub as well as ext4.

Any one have benchmarks for the supposed massive speed improvements with ext4?
EDIT: before anyone else gets the chance :) http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=ext4+benchmarks

For F12/13 aren't they gonna change the filesystem again to btrfs anyway?

RahulSundaram
7th February 2009, 03:36 PM
Hi

Very unlikely for Fedora 12 but Btfs is still planned to be made default in a later release. How soon is still undecided.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Alpha_release_notes

scottro
7th February 2009, 04:52 PM
@sideways, I saw something the other day--I think it was Ubuntu with ext4, Wndows 7 (which did surprisngly well in some categories) and Ubuntu with ext3. (checks opera history--nope, not there---hold on......

Ah, here it is.
http://www.tuxradar.com/content/benchmarked-ubuntu-vs-vista-vs-windows-7

sideways
7th February 2009, 07:49 PM
cheers scottro, ext4 is looking good, that test says ~25% faster boot with ext4 compared to ext3, which seems very reasonable, but I thought the phoronix benchmarks (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ext4_benchmarks&num=2) were unbelievable 30-40% faster sequential read/write!

I'll try the alpha out sometime soon and test it myself with a plain old large file copy rather than fancy bonnie++

:)

Demz
8th February 2009, 12:23 AM
i would expect Btfs to be default in fedora14 if not 15. maybe 16 possibly

Nullack
8th February 2009, 08:36 AM
I havent seen any issues with the grub patch for ext4 boot partitions with Jaunty, nor have I seen other testers complaining, so I think the dev in charge should consider including the patch.

Demz
8th February 2009, 08:46 AM
i would expect Ubuntu would make there own patches etc to this filesystem so it may work perfectly in Jaunty but it still needs to be tested thoroughly in Fedora11 before there's a commitment in making ext4 default.

someone correct me if im wrong there

Nullack
8th February 2009, 09:46 AM
The only difference from upstream grub would be any patches that Ubuntu or Fedora use that isnt upstream - AFAIK the only ones of consequence is to add EXT4 to GRUB without using GRUB2.

Demz
8th February 2009, 10:15 AM
GRUB2 is far to buggy to even bother to use from what i have read