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Jlen
27th October 2008, 07:10 PM
Hi I am unable to login as root from the login screen or the BASH prompt. I know the password.as I wrote it down. Tried starting in single user mode and then #passwd to change it which apparently worked, But still can't use the password to login after restarting.

When I login and press a key to see which item I want to boot I have three options tried booting from each one but no joy with the root login.

Would appreciate some help else I'll have to reinstall the OS and the updates will take a few days to come down.

Thanks

Jlen
28th October 2008, 05:32 PM
Small addition in case anyone has a thought. I can login as my normal user account. I can also use the root password to become super user via BASH. Then I can change the password with #passwd. This works fine. However I still cannot login at the login screen as root even with the password I just changed via su.

scotty38
28th October 2008, 09:02 PM
It's because you're not supposed to.....

Aaron222
28th October 2008, 09:10 PM
If it was windows, I would have recommended restarting it... And if it doesn't resolve the issue, reinstalling it.

Regards,
Aaron

Linux Archive (http://www.linux-archive.org/)

scotty38
28th October 2008, 09:12 PM
If it was windows, I would have recommended restarting it... And if it doesn't resolve the issue, reinstalling it.

Let's be thankful it's not then.....

JN4OldSchool
28th October 2008, 09:13 PM
Small addition in case anyone has a thought. I can login as my normal user account. I can also use the root password to become super user via BASH. Then I can change the password with #passwd. This works fine. However I still cannot login at the login screen as root even with the password I just changed via su.

Agreed with Scotty! From your post, what is the problem? Just su - for what you need. Did you know you can open a file browser with root privileges? Just su - then type nautilus. From there you can edit anything. You should NEVER have to log in as root. I understand that there are administrative functions where it is easiest to do this, but a home desktop user does NOT fall into this category.

I run Linux Mint. I have not enabled the root account in any of my installs (a first for me.) I have not missed them at all. You do NOT need to log in as root. EVER!

scottro
28th October 2008, 09:51 PM
This is by design. As was said, it's not a good idea, and I believe they've made it so that root cannot log into to a runlevel 5 (graphic) login. (It might just be gdm, rather than all runlevel 5 bootups, but as I use neither runlevel 5 nor root login in a graphic login, I'm not sure.)


Anyway, nothing is broken. It is working as designed.

glynns10
29th October 2008, 03:06 AM
when i installed fedora9 i could login as root, but had problems with installing updates and my printer did not work, today for some strange reason my updates worked, and after that my printer worked. but now my display is not right, and when i make the change from my user side it does not take. i can not login to the root now.. and i understand and remember this, but can someone explain to a rookie how can i make changes to my display?

scottro
29th October 2008, 03:52 AM
Although in theory, you shouldn't need to log into X as root, there are times when for whatever reason, something wouldn't work any other way. This was one reason there was a good deal of protest over the decision.
I think that many of the issues have been worked out--I haven't personally run into any in awhile.
Anyway, I belive you can do it this way. Boot into runlevel 3.
(By adding a 3 to the line in your /boot/grub/menu.lst that begins with the word kernel. I believe you said that you booted into single user mode, so I assume you know how to add something to the running grub configuration---you hit e as in edit when the grub screen comes up, use the down arrow to get to the line beginning with kernel and hit e again. )


You will boot into text mode and see a log in prompt, similar to what you see when you boot into single user mode.
Log in as root
Once logged in, type

echo 'exec gnome-session' > .xinitrc

The reason for this is to avoid start X taking you back to the GDM (Gnome Display Manager) which might have the same problem--not allowing root login. Not using Gnome, not logging into a graphic environment and not using GDM, I honestly don't know. It's quite possible I'm not giving you the best answer, but as I don't know what would happen, it strikes me as possible that you'd wind up at the GDM, and have to reboot and start the whole process again. So, this method avoids that possibility.

It will then eventually put you into Gnome, probably with some dire warning about running as root. See if you can fix your problem that way.

If not, then at least you know that the fact you couldn't get to X as root wasn't the cause of the problem so you've made some progress.

JN4OldSchool
29th October 2008, 03:53 AM
If you are making the change as root then it is the same as being logged in as root. You need to figure out why your xorg.conf is changing back. I would suspect video driver here. You do not mention what driver you are running or what the problem is with your display.

One thing you can try is changing your xorg.conf then locking it down with


su -
chattr +i /etc/X11/xorg.conf


Unlock it with


su -
chattr -i /etc/X11/xorg.conf

This is not a solution but a troubleshooting technique.
This will prevent it from automatically changing back.

glynns10
30th October 2008, 12:16 AM
ok, for some strange reason now, my display size is correct.... don't know why....but finally the updates installed, but one... my printer now works too.....go figure???? my new problem is that when i click on the computer on the desktop, it shows way too many drives..... here is my system....sorry i didn't include it before...
intel core2 prossessor at 2.13 mhz....2 gis ddr2 ram, geforce 5500 video card....1sata hard drive, 3 ida hard drives, 1 dvd player, and a flash card reader......
now when i click the admin-updates, it says i have all my updates installed, before it would show like 770....but i would still like to know how to changes things, setting...because it will not let me log into the root as before the updates were installed......i had one problem with one update....this is what it said...
failed to contact configuration server: some possible causes are that you need to enable tcp\ip networking for orbit, or you have stale nfs locks due to a system crash....can you help me with that.....also is there someone i can call to get info.....

Jlen
31st October 2008, 08:40 AM
Thanks very much for the advice about the use of the root user. I understand your points. I am new to linux, have more experience of Mac and PC.

However, it bugs me that I don't know how to do it! I have my files on my normal user area so don't login as root anyway but I think that I should be able to or indeed just know how to do this but it's not obvious to me what the steps are to do this. Have copy of Fedora 9 Bible, it's not really telling me anything useful.

scotty38
31st October 2008, 09:44 AM
What are you struggling with exactly? As has already been said you can either su or su - from a terminal to get the privileges you require.

Jake
31st October 2008, 10:21 AM
I dis-agree with the idea of locking root out of system. As "su" cannot do all the commands you can do as actually being logged in..

obviously don't be logged in as root 24-7. but I think it should be still allowed... basically what there doing is "hey listen, this is the administrative account it can do more than a standard user... best not let you have it"

Quickest way to login to root is probably by pressing "ctrl alt f4" then user name root, then the pw. then. type init 1, as you just crashed xserver and it will not boot up properly. then once in single user mode type init 3, login again then type "startx" there is probably a quicker way, but that's how I do it... oh and init is limited when using just "su" you can't init through levels.

scotty38
31st October 2008, 10:39 AM
I dis-agree with the idea of locking root out of system. As "su" cannot do all the commands you can do as actually being logged in..

Are you including "su -" in that statement too?

Jake
31st October 2008, 11:10 AM
Are you including "su -" in that statement too?No. But even with that, I still like to be able to actually login as root. otherwise I feel "restricted" from my own computer.

reashlin
31st October 2008, 11:46 AM
basically what there doing is "hey listen, this is the administrative account it can do more than a standard user... best not let you have it"

What they are really saying is,
A) If you can't work this account from the command line then you shouldn't be poxing about with it anyway
B) In the graphical world lots of crap is done for you, lots of files auto opened. Then you've got web browsers that you like to use. Its a security risk. Running as root gives viruses a chance to properly exist.

There is just no reason to Graphically log in as root.

reashlin
31st October 2008, 11:47 AM
No. But even with that, I still like to be able to actually login as root. otherwise I feel "restricted" from my own computer.

but "su -" actually is logging into your computer as root.

Jake
31st October 2008, 11:53 AM
but "su -" actually is logging into your computer as root.For the record.... Prior to this thread, surprisingly I didn't know "su -".. but that's partly because I'm used to logging into the root account, and rarely using "su", only use su for quick jobs. PS: yes I know command line pretty good, I just didn't know the 1 command, it doesn't mean I will break my computer :p

reashlin
31st October 2008, 12:48 PM
Basically "su" switches user (without specifying a name it will default to root) but does NOT assume roots environmental variables.

"su -" alternativley "su -l" or "su --login", again default to root does load a full login session including environmental variables. Giving you access to all of roots commands, or more appropriatly everything under roots PATH.

Do not forget you could "su" and then most commands you cannot find will be /sbin/"command" as sbin is where many of the more advanced tools are.

Using root is always a dangerous thing to do.

With great power comes great responsibility. - sudo

scottro
31st October 2008, 01:56 PM
Just a note about the sbin stuff. This will be changing in F10. /sbin, /usr/sbin and /usrl/ocal/sbin will part of the normal user's path.

JN4OldSchool
31st October 2008, 02:14 PM
For the record.... Prior to this thread, surprisingly I didn't know "su -".. but that's partly because I'm used to logging into the root account, and rarely using "su", only use su for quick jobs. PS: yes I know command line pretty good, I just didn't know the 1 command, it doesn't mean I will break my computer :p

Using your quote out of context, this is the reason why this is such an argument in the first place. People just do not realize that you CAN do everything in the user account with root permissions that you can logged in as root. I fell into this once myself. Learning that I could open a file browser with root permissions made all the difference for me. No need to use CLI or gedit or nano, just open Nautilus as root and click on the file you want to edit. I fell into the "Fedora" mentality of looking down on sudo also. Now that I am using mint I can say it is the way to go. The weakness is using the user password as sudo password, but this can be changed. You simply do not need a root login and Ubuntu does the correct thing by not making it default but STILL ALLOWING IT!!! Though this is probably likely to change now that Fedora has gone where you should not go in Linux.

I did not know about this decision to completely prevent a root login in Fedora. I do not run Fedora and do not know the particulars or if there is a way to circumvent this, maybe like Scottro mentions. But from what I do know I am madder than a wet hen about it! How dare they? Yes, graphic root login is not needed and should never be used by a home desktop user, but who are YOU to dictate how I use MY Linux OS? The warning made sense, did not insult me, but how dare you lock me out? I am glad I left this distro and if this is going to be the trend I doubt I will ever be back. Now I just dread the deb distros will follow suite. I cannot live with changes that limit my experience or packages that cannot be removed because other things depend on them.

Jake
31st October 2008, 02:24 PM
Using your quote out of context, this is the reason why this is such an argument in the first place. People just do not realize that you CAN do everything in the user account with root permissions that you can logged in as root. I fell into this once myself. Learning that I could open a file browser with root permissions made all the difference for me. No need to use CLI or gedit or nano, just open Nautilus as root and click on the file you want to edit. I fell into the "Fedora" mentality of looking down on sudo also. Now that I am using mint I can say it is the way to go. The weakness is using the user password as sudo password, but this can be changed. You simply do not need a root login and Ubuntu does the correct thing by not making it default but STILL ALLOWING IT!!! Though this is probably likely to change now that Fedora has gone where you should not go in Linux.

I did not know about this decision to completely prevent a root login in Fedora. I do not run Fedora and do not know the particulars or if there is a way to circumvent this, maybe like Scottro mentions. But from what I do know I am madder than a wet hen about it! How dare they? Yes, graphic root login is not needed and should never be used by a home desktop user, but who are YOU to dictate how I use MY Linux OS? The warning made sense, did not insult me, but how dare you lock me out? I am glad I left this distro and if this is going to be the trend I doubt I will ever be back. Now I just dread the deb distros will follow suite. I cannot live with changes that limit my experience or packages that cannot be removed because other things depend on them.That's kind of the point I was getting at.

As for ubuntu, I installed the server, went to use "su" enter password.. so I did.. guess what, failed. it doesn't let you use even su by default. which is kind of annoying for me. so I played with it a bit and somehow got root to work.. still not sure how xD. though problem I have, is I never read documentation on anything, I just tend to um, guess and have fun see what works xD. it's how I learned to install OS. and how I learned to use linux. I wonder if the ubuntu docs had a method and told you how? hmm. maybe I should of checked those instead of almost breaking the entire login system :p

JN4OldSchool
31st October 2008, 02:40 PM
That's kind of the point I was getting at.

As for ubuntu, I installed the server, went to use "su" enter password.. so I did.. guess what, failed. it doesn't let you use even su by default. which is kind of annoying for me. so I played with it a bit and somehow got root to work.. still not sure how xD. though problem I have, is I never read documentation on anything, I just tend to um, guess and have fun see what works xD. it's how I learned to install OS. and how I learned to use linux. I wonder if the ubuntu docs had a method and told you how? hmm. maybe I should of checked those instead of almost breaking the entire login system :p

Use sudo instead, it is the same thing. Just replace "sudo" wherever you would put "su -"

Isaac1357
31st October 2008, 06:24 PM
If you really want to run X as root, why not just boot to runlevel 3, log in as root, and type startx?

I'm assuming that the restriction is in GDM not X iteself.

JN4OldSchool
31st October 2008, 06:27 PM
Although in theory, you shouldn't need to log into X as root, there are times when for whatever reason, something wouldn't work any other way. This was one reason there was a good deal of protest over the decision.
I think that many of the issues have been worked out--I haven't personally run into any in awhile.
Anyway, I belive you can do it this way. Boot into runlevel 3.
(By adding a 3 to the line in your /boot/grub/menu.lst that begins with the word kernel. I believe you said that you booted into single user mode, so I assume you know how to add something to the running grub configuration---you hit e as in edit when the grub screen comes up, use the down arrow to get to the line beginning with kernel and hit e again. )


You will boot into text mode and see a log in prompt, similar to what you see when you boot into single user mode.
Log in as root
Once logged in, type

echo 'exec gnome-session' > .xinitrc

The reason for this is to avoid start X taking you back to the GDM (Gnome Display Manager) which might have the same problem--not allowing root login. Not using Gnome, not logging into a graphic environment and not using GDM, I honestly don't know. It's quite possible I'm not giving you the best answer, but as I don't know what would happen, it strikes me as possible that you'd wind up at the GDM, and have to reboot and start the whole process again. So, this method avoids that possibility.

It will then eventually put you into Gnome, probably with some dire warning about running as root. See if you can fix your problem that way.

If not, then at least you know that the fact you couldn't get to X as root wasn't the cause of the problem so you've made some progress.

This has been suggested. It is not a very good idea to run as root, though many folks are just stubborn about doing it. It is more the idea of the thing than anything else.

carpetfeller
31st October 2008, 06:39 PM
KDE or GNOME?

reashlin
31st October 2008, 06:54 PM
The weakness is using the user password as sudo password, but this can be changed.

Actually thats the strength of sudo over su.

Sudo can be set to limit the commands a user is allowed to run as root. So if you want you other half to be able to do some things as root but not install software, then you can disable sudo access to su yum and rpm. This is why the user needs their password.

su logs into a terminal session as root.
sudo elevates my priviledges for this command.

The difference is subtle but for sys admins on large multi user systems it is crucial.


Also why has sbin been put into a users path. Personally I initially thought all programs that require root proviledges were in sbin. That way there is A) no mistake it is an admin tool and B) Admin can find their special tools much easier.

Why would you merge the path and not just move the folder?

scottro
31st October 2008, 10:57 PM
Perhaps because they're becoming more restrictive of root login? (re the sbin question.)

Personally, I feel that is an improvement, as I always added it to my path anyway. In FreeBSD, only wheel can su, sudo isn't installed by default but has to be installed as a 3rd party program (trivial to do) but all users have access to all paths unless otherwise specifided.

I prefer that way, but I'm used to it. <shrug>.

drdolphin
26th November 2008, 12:03 AM
Some of you people are worthless. Just answer the dude's question. It's one thing to point out the use of sudo and su but at least follow it up with the answer.

FYI - To login as root on Fedora 10 you will need to su to root and the comment out this line

#auth required pam_succeed_if.so user != root quiet

in /etc/pam.d/gdm

-dd

reashlin
26th November 2008, 01:37 AM
I don't think its a matter of being worthless its has already been stated HOW he could do this we are now going into WHY things are as they are.

I've only just noticed you DON'T need to be a member of wheel to su on fedora. Most of my *nix underpinnings come from a Solaris based lecturer who does things "the old way". He just said the first account you create "should" but no have to be you admin account. I always just added that one to wheel.

scottro
26th November 2008, 02:06 AM
Worthless is without worth. Did the answers about sudo and su enable the OP to do what he wanted? Is it possible that many people don't know that yet, as it hasn't been widely mentioned? I remember trying to look for it the other day--if I hadnt' remembered the title of the thread on fedora-testing, I couldn't have found it.

Maybe some folks feel that no one who boots into Gnome should be logging in as root. <Shrug>.
At any rate, please don't be so disparaging of other posts that are making an effort to help the OP. And for once (those who have been around, know this is a bit unusual for me) I'm requesting that as a CM.

Don't insult other posters, it's in the forum guidelines somewhere.

As for putting /sbin etc., into a normal users path, personally, I think it's a good thing, the BSDs have been using it for years--it doesn't mean the normal user can do things and can be useful for commands that primarily give information.

scottro
26th November 2008, 02:51 AM
Timidly pulls at Wayne's sleeve. Ano, warui kedo, demo, watashi no poo-su-to chotto yonde itadakimasen ka? Tabun kotchira wa, mou sono koto wo kaita no de gozaimasu..

(Note the extremely polite speech as you are my forum senpai.)

scottro
26th November 2008, 02:56 AM
A note to others. We (the mods) try to not gang up on people. I was telling Wayne, in extremely polite Japanese that I'd already said that. What happened is that we both went to answer at about the same time--however, I type faster, (and probably think less about what I'm writing) so my post arrived first.

We don't usually gang up on people, at least not intentionally, it is just that we happened to see the post at about the same time.

Wayne
26th November 2008, 03:00 AM
Scott さん

もう消しました :)

Way In

scottro
26th November 2008, 03:35 AM
わざわざ、すみません. (For those who try to figure out what happened, Wayne wrote something similar at the same instant that I did. As we CM's don't like to gang up on people, and I was the faster typist, he deleted his post as he is a gentleman.)

cloneu2
26th November 2008, 01:28 PM
Some of you people are worthless. Just answer the dude's question. It's one thing to point out the use of sudo and su but at least follow it up with the answer.

FYI - To login as root on Fedora 10 you will need to su to root and the comment out this line

#auth required pam_succeed_if.so user != root quiet

in /etc/pam.d/gdm

-dd

THANK YOU!
I came upon your post this am and was overcome with JOY. I have been stuck with the boot to init3 thing and then logging on as root to startx. used switchdesk to get to kde instead of gnome. You answered a question that it seems no one else could or would. After reading your post I am now able to Boot to KDM and type in root (or whatever other user) and do what I need to do.

Thanks again

john

anika.ella
26th November 2008, 02:30 PM
I just download F10 iso DVD i 386. Installed on my computer, but I cannot log in as root. There ARE some commands that cannot be done as regular user followed by su.

cloneu2
26th November 2008, 02:36 PM
I just download F10 iso DVD i 386. Installed on my computer, but I cannot log in as root. There ARE some commands that cannot be done as regular user followed by su.

read the above and you should fix it!

messner
26th November 2008, 05:17 PM
This is not a bug ... this is a new feature ;)

I don't like it either ... sometimes I have arranged some stuff with graphical config tools and it is more convenient to do it from X then from the command prompt. I know i can start them from command prompt. But can I also have a browser window open, where I can read my howto tutorial ??

And more and more ... I want my X root login ...

glebaron
26th November 2008, 05:37 PM
Some of you people are worthless. Just answer the dude's question. It's one thing to point out the use of sudo and su but at least follow it up with the answer.

FYI - To login as root on Fedora 10 you will need to su to root and the comment out this line

#auth required pam_succeed_if.so user != root quiet

in /etc/pam.d/gdm

-dd

Bless you. A simple question. A simple and correct answer.

tfruth
27th November 2008, 03:25 AM
THANK YOU!
I came upon your post this am and was overcome with JOY. I have been stuck with the boot to init3 thing and then logging on as root to startx. used switchdesk to get to kde instead of gnome. You answered a question that it seems no one else could or would. After reading your post I am now able to Boot to KDM and type in root (or whatever other user) and do what I need to do.

Thanks again

john

Ten years of Linux use, since RedHat 5, and all Fedora versions except 8 (I skipped it.) Dr. Dolphin actually answered the question directly. Thank you. Do I use su? Yes. Do I rarely need to log in to the graphical interface as root? Yes! I'm just under 25 days from permanently switching to openSuSe. I'm fine with Fedora and its moderators working toward educating people on security, but how difficult would it have been to add that there is an actual solution to the issue? I fear that this absurd level of narrow-mindedness is what prevents Linux desktop adoption en mass. I don't like Novell's deal with the Devil (Microshaft) any more than you do, but at least their distro works right out of the box. Every Fedora upgrade is followed by hours of getting the system back to where it was: working Flash, PDF, 3D (that's read 'NVIDIA Proprietary Driver'), printing, sound, Java (real, not fake), etc. Now I have to find a post to hack the login. Absurd! I can't even issue init 3 from a terminal window any more. System locks up. The only way to install the Nvidia driver was to log in as root. Couldn't do it. Had to press an arrow key to get Grub boot screen so I could add init 3 command, so I could log in as root, so I could install the driver.

I love Linux and open-source/free software. Why do some in Fedora circles believe that using FREE drivers from a hardware manufacturer is an issue? Nvidia publishes the drivers. Use them!

Feel free to remove my post or banish me for life, but I hope you don't. My extreme frustration level needs to be heard throughout the Fedora community. I'm glad that Flash, Nvidia, and Java alternatives have been developed, but until they work 100% of the time, I am forced to use the FREE tools that work.

I support copyleft, creative commons, open-source, and all of that, but desktop users need one thing above all others: a system that works right out of the box, without having to spend hours at a command prompt. I want Fedora (and as a result, RedHat) to succeed. I fear that their success is threatened when I cannot, in good conscience, recommend Fedora to a beginner.

Are you hearing me? Sure, I bet my post belongs in another thread, but there isn't a '95 Theses' thread. I feel that version after version the voice of the consumer/user is ignored by Fedora. Instead, some tiny committee of uber geeks in a chat room somewhere decide that they know what's best for us and must rise and save us from ourselves (all apologies to Rush - Moving Pictures - Track 6 - Witch Hunt.) I'm writing with passion and concern because I care, because I have been fighting for Linux adoption in the server room and the desktop at the corporate level.

In case you're wondering (and I'm sure by now that you're not), I make a respectable income for a person without a college degree (over six figures), I have a decent computer (quad core Core 2, 8GB RAM, etc.), and ten years of experience in Linux, Windows, and NetWare, hold a CNA 5 certification, and a PMP certification (good through 2012.) Point? I'm not a blithering idiot or some sheeple user.

By the way, do we get our login photos back yet? Is that addressed in another thread?

scottro
27th November 2008, 04:14 AM
We're really not into banishing people, nor are we even into stopping complaints.

The point was that calling people worthless is a bit uncouth and we try to keep a certain level of decorum here.

Would following their advice have solved his problem? Yeah.
Therefore, the answers were not without worth.


On the other hand, I agree with about 99 percent of what you wrote. Fedora seems to have a bit of an indentity crisis, driving away many of those who are looking for an easy to use desktop with some decisions that aren't yet ready for prime time, while driving away the more experienced by catering to those who are inexperienced and want the easy to use desktop, and pleasing neither one. And yes, you've actually struck a common chord with your feeling about who IS making these decisions that no one wants. The question gets asked from time to time, especially as they boast of being a community distro. You'll see that many of the more experienced folks here will recommend that those seeking an easy to use desktop distro use Ubuntu, Mint, or one of the others.



So, that's the only criterion here. Give the answers, that's great. Don't call the other people worthless. That's not great.
Complain about the way Fedora does things, that's fine, most of us do. :)

Anyway, welcome to the forums. If you calm down a bit--I always recommend petting a kitten or puppy before venting on a forum, they sometimes put people in better moods, you might even enjoy yourself here. With your qualifications, I'm sure that you can be a big help to other people if you choose to do so. You sound like you want to get in an argument with your post, which is usually counterproductive. How often do we close someone else's mind by insulting them?

So, go pet a kitten, or puppy, and think again. You'll find many people grateful for the assistance you might be able to give, and you might even find that you can enjoy yourself.

My guess is that, as the answer isn't all that readily available, many people didn't know it and answered as well as they could. As for me, I don't use Gnome so the issue never affected me. At one point, I'd looked it up for someone else, and it was a nuisance to find, and frankly, I'd forgotten what it was.

However, although I couldn't answer his question at that time, my hungry cat didn't think I was worthless. So, you see, if one gives a hungry cat value in this world, drdolphin was, assuming that I'm a people, very wrong.

Ergo, as you agree with him, I have to say that I think you're wrong as well. Even now, that same cat is showing me, in a rather annoying way (pawing at my hands as I type) that he feels you're wrong. (About me, as one of the ones who gave another answer, as being worthless.)

I could go on in this whimsical vein, but either you're laughing or getting angrier--or, if you laughed while drinking soda and spit it on your monitor, perhaps both.

At any rate, the short answer. Complaining's OK, lots of folks are doing it as the new theoretically improved Fedora comes out.

Although, not all the developers are like that. I should point out that they were going to replace pidgeon, with Empathy and the developer came out and said, Shucks, it's not ready for prime time, but I'd love some beta testers. His attitude changed everyone else's resentful attitude towards Empathy and in the end, he's getting lots of beta testers.
So, it often pays to be nice.

You can take it for what it's, errm, worth.

Mariano Suárez-
27th November 2008, 04:25 AM
Ten years of Linux use, since RedHat 5, and all Fedora versions except 8 (I skipped it.) Dr. Dolphin actually answered the question directly. Thank you. Do I use su? Yes. Do I rarely need to log in to the graphical interface as root? Yes! I'm just under 25 days from permanently switching to openSuSe. I'm fine with Fedora and its moderators working toward educating people on security, but how difficult would it have been to add that there is an actual solution to the issue? I fear that this absurd level of narrow-mindedness is what prevents Linux desktop adoption en mass. I don't like Novell's deal with the Devil (Microshaft) any more than you do, but at least their distro works right out of the box. Every Fedora upgrade is followed by hours of getting the system back to where it was: working Flash, PDF, 3D (that's read 'NVIDIA Proprietary Driver'), printing, sound, Java (real, not fake), etc.


I do not understand. Are you complaining that they follow the copyright notices of the software you are mentioning? You want them to distribute software they are legally not allowed to distribute? Really?


Now I have to find a post to hack the login. Absurd! I can't even issue init 3 from a terminal window any more. System locks up. The only way to install the Nvidia driver was to log in as root. Couldn't do it. Had to press an arrow key to get Grub boot screen so I could add init 3 command, so I could log in as root, so I could install the driver.

I love Linux and open-source/free software. Why do some in Fedora circles believe that using FREE drivers from a hardware manufacturer is an issue? Nvidia publishes the drivers. Use them!

Feel free to remove my post or banish me for life, but I hope you don't. My extreme frustration level needs to be heard throughout the Fedora community. I'm glad that Flash, Nvidia, and Java alternatives have been developed, but until they work 100% of the time, I am forced to use the FREE tools that work.

I support copyleft, creative commons, open-source, and all of that, but desktop users need one thing above all others: a system that works right out of the box, without having to spend hours at a command prompt.

So what you are saying is: you support all that except when you have to pay a cost for supporting it.


I want Fedora (and as a result, RedHat) to succeed. I fear that their success is threatened when I cannot, in good conscience, recommend Fedora to a beginner.

Are you hearing me? Sure, I bet my post belongs in another thread, but there isn't a '95 Theses' thread. I feel that version after version the voice of the consumer/user is ignored by Fedora. Instead, some tiny committee of uber geeks in a chat room somewhere decide that they know what's best for us and must rise and save us from ourselves (all apologies to Rush - Moving Pictures - Track 6 - Witch Hunt.) I'm writing with passion and concern because I care, because I have been fighting for Linux adoption in the server room and the desktop at the corporate level.

And, of course, as we all know, in the server room there is nothing more necessary than a graphical desktop for root to log in into, and for the desktop at the corporate level there is nothing more necessary than to let users log in as root.

If you do not agree with the ideals the Fedora community has decided to follow, and if in fact the practical consequences of following those principles annoy you so much, you should take advantage of the existence of other distros, and simply stop using Fedora. There are other distros that will probably fit much better with what you are willing to do. The whole point of freedom is that anyone can come up with the design decisions they like: why on earth are you telling the people that come up with Fedora to do something different to what they think is best, the very same people that actual do everything it takes to actual make Fedora happen?

The sense of entitlement your post transpires is simply unbelievable.

scottro
27th November 2008, 04:36 AM
Ok folks, I'll say it one more time. Stop getting in arguments.
Complaining about things you don't like is fine. Getting angry at others for holding different views isn't. If the thread continues to be this acrimonious, it'll be closed.

EVERYONE CALM DOWN!!!!

It's fine to say, I think it's a bad decision because....
It's fine to say, I respectfully disagree with you because....

Then, it can be an interesting discussion. But the last few posts here have been more along the lines of Monty Python. "I'm looking for an argument. No you're not!"

For those who feel drdolphin did the right thing, that's Ok too. He knew the answer and gave it. For those who think he was right to call everyone else worthless, well, if you think that, keep it to yourself or PM others who seem to agree with you.

As I said in my reply to drdolphin, I very very seldom put on my CM hat in cases like this, but this one is really getting out of hand.

The discussion of why it's a good and bad idea can be interesting, and useful to everyone. Calling each other doody heads isn't really useful. Anger feeds on itself. Take that advice from an old doddering fellow. Or don't take it. But don't bring it here.

Mariano Suárez-
27th November 2008, 04:59 AM
I have no idea where this fear of "arguments" comes from. I do not think anyone called anyone a doody head in this thread, nor anything in this thread (nor in most threads, to my knowledge) ever got nowhere close to being acrimonious or "out of hand". I have yet to see anything remotely similar to anger. Adults can disagree, and hold discussions in which they never agree and they never convince the other party, and yet those discussions are not worthless---if anything, they will have sharpened their arguments, understood better where they stand, and hopefully learned something.

The only reason I show up here is to be helpful to others yet, honestly, the whole approach to moderation which reigns around here simply puts me off. And, just as I recommended tfruth in my previous post on this thread to do with respect to another matter, I have chosen to pretty much leave the forum based on my not agreeing with the way it is run. I happen to know that I am not the only one that's been put off by that approach, I do believe that it results in a significant loss in the end, and I think the evidence seen in many other fora (USENET being a major example) shows that it is wholly unnecessary in order to preserve value---yet I guess it is pretty much consistent with the code of conduct of the site, which I gather was drafted with care and intent, so I would not pretend to change the way the site is run by those who run it.

scottro
27th November 2008, 05:28 AM
Ok, noted.
However, I think it's time to close the thread.
I respectfully disagree with you though--while usenet was and is certainly valuable, far to much signal to noise ratio.

Yes, sometimes we're Draconian. On the other hand, I see other forums where they're not, and frankly, I don't think they're as valuable as these.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, as i think your posts always have value (if you'll note, in another thread, I strongly recommended the OP read your answer twice), but frankly, I think far too often tech forums get overly sidetracked by arguments. One prime example that was funny, yet sad, was one between some Debian developers--one put comments in the code, accusing the other of doing something that he wouldn't want his mother seeing.
The insulted one filed a major bug aginst the program, feeling that personal insults were uncalled for. Someone else changed it to a minor bug. Meanwhile, the Debian users were the ones that suffered.

Anyway, I'm closing the thread, anyone who wants to argue it can PM me, but I'm gong to bed, and tomorrow I plan to have a nice dinner with my family, some of whom I haven't seen since last year.
Happy holidays to all who celebrate. Goodnight.