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View Full Version : Wait for me!!! I'm finally going 64-bit, some questions!



savage
11th December 2007, 07:11 PM
I've finally fixed the flux capacitor and am on my way back to the future, far far into the future as far as my current PC is concerned.

I've not used 64-bit Fedora before, so, my questions:
Does 64-bit Fedora have good compatibility?
Does 64-bit Fedora provide all that 32-bit does?
Does having 32-bit libraries installed slow it down? Slower than 32-bit Fedora?
Is the livna nVidia driver available?
Does wine work as well on 64-bit as 32-bit?
I know almost every 64-bit Windows user I know, runs the 32-bit OS, why? I have no idea, but it makes sense to me, 64-bit CPU = 64-bit OS.

I do need to run wine, which I've read requires 32-bit libraries, and have read these slow down Fedora considerably, do they make it slower than 32-bit Fedora running the same?

I haven't bought the parts yet, but the hardware I will be getting:
Intel Core Duo 2 3Ghz (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4MM7)
Asustek S775 Intel P35 ATX GLAN Motherboard (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4QNW)
GeForce FX8600GTS (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4R4D)Anyone know of any compatibility issues/problems? Seems pretty standard to me, but I haven't bought a new computer in... umm... years.

Thanks, Savage

Dangermouse
11th December 2007, 07:20 PM
Hi i run 64bit, basically i have found no difference as regards compatabilty etc programs etc, there used to be a issue with flash player not running in 64 bit firefox, but that is no longer a issue with nspluginwrapper, which is installed by default in f8, if you transcode/convert videos etc you should notice a performance boost with 64 bit.

FriedChips
11th December 2007, 07:22 PM
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes

That is just my experience but, I am very happy with x86_64 at this point. The only i386 packages I use are wine ( which can be built for x86_64, but only i386 is in the repos for now ) and firefox which I don't actually use. Firefox.i386 is needed for nspluginwrapper to "wrap" the plugins so they work in the x86_64 bit version. Other than that I really haven't experienced any major difficulties.

The first thing I usually do ( by preference ) is remove all the i?86 packages wiith

yum erase *.i?86
then install the basearchonly plugin for yum so unless I specify an i386 package to be installed it will only install x86_64 packages. By default it will install both when you try to yum install something.

nick.stumpos
11th December 2007, 08:30 PM
everything should work fine. absolute worse case senario and you need something that is 32 bit only then have the 32 bit libs installed and do a chroot , but in all honesty i doubt you will ever notice a difference.

leadgolem
11th December 2007, 10:07 PM
In order:
Yes
Mostly, see explanation.
Not usually, see explanation.
Yes
Yes, with a tiny bit of tweaking.

Fedora it's self provides almost everything in 64bit that it does in 32bit. In the case where a package won't compile as 64bit 99% of the time you can use the 32bit package. The problems you can run into are with 3rd party packages, especially closed one. The adobe flash plugin for firefox with the nspluginwrapper to get it to work in firefox64 is not nearly as stable as using the adobe flash plugin in firefox32. Java also has several issues.

The only possible problem with having 32bit libraries as well as 64bit is the additional disk space required for those libraries. Usually this has no visible effect on performance. The exception being, when a disk/partition is almost full.

As stated above, the wine version in the 64bit version of fedora is still the 32 bit version. So there is usually no difficulty. With your nvidia card though I would recommend installing the 32bit libs so your performance doesn't get killed going through the compatibility libraries.
yum install xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-libs-32bitDo that when you are installing your kmod-nvidia from livna.

JN4OldSchool
11th December 2007, 10:30 PM
gee, let me be original and answer:

yes
yes
no
yes
yes

My experiences are the same as those above with the exception that I did NOT erase ANY 32 bit libs and probably have a ton of 32 bit apps installed. I see no performance difference (either way) with the things I do.

savage
11th December 2007, 10:52 PM
Thanks all for the replies, I feel happier now. So conclusion, 64-bit is the same as 32-bit as far as I will notice.
With your nvidia card though I would recommend installing the 32bit libs so your performance doesn't get killed going through the compatibility libraries.These compatibilities libraries, is that a bit like ye ol' Win32s for Windows 3.1 (but reverse)? They take 64-bit calls and convert them to 32-bit etc.?

I forgot to ask, although from the replies, I'm guessing not, but are there any issues with VMWare and 64-bit Fedora? I use it quite intensively to boot Win2k, being too lazy to actually reboot my computer :D

Thanks, Savage

Seve
11th December 2007, 10:56 PM
Hello:
I use VmWare Server [Free] on F8 64bit without an issue :)
Although, I don't have any window OS's running.

All the 32bit libraries are available from the standard fedora repos, if you need to install them.

Really, you should not have any issues.

Good Luck

Seve

FriedChips
11th December 2007, 11:10 PM
I use VirtualBox on my x86_64 system with no problems. With most things you will literally not even notice the difference.

savage
11th December 2007, 11:16 PM
Cool, can't wait to get the bits and get away from the stone age, now all I need to do is persuade my brother to buy me a motherboard, sister some RAM, mother a CPU and father a graphics card.

Christmas is great :D

Thanks again all, Savage

Oh wait, I need a new PSU... *ponders about long lost brothers/sisters* they must be out there!

leadgolem
11th December 2007, 11:30 PM
These compatibilities libraries, is that a bit like ye ol' Win32s for Windows 3.1 (but reverse)? They take 64-bit calls and convert them to 32-bit etc.?Actually, it's the other way around. They convert 32bit calls into 64bit calls. Mostly you won't even notice. When wine is already converting d3d calls into opengl calls though, the additional layer of conversion is murder on 3d performance. Using the 32bit libs removes the need to do that additional layer of conversion.

savage
12th December 2007, 01:57 AM
Cool, I'll add that to me x86_64 todo list, I don't play many games under wine, well I don't play many games period, but I would like to see how CS:S handles on dual monitor on it, my current PC (spec below) got me a 10fps bullet in the face - see here (http://www.savagereactor.co.uk/content/computing/fc/images/css_ds_fc6_full.jpg).

Savage

izanbardprince
12th December 2007, 03:11 AM
64-bit Linux is mostly compatible with 32-bit programs, and you get a VERY nice speed boost with music/video en/de/transcoding too, sometimes as much as 50%, same goes for compressing and decompressing files.

savage
12th December 2007, 09:27 AM
64-bit Linux is mostly compatible with 32-bit programs, and you get a VERY nice speed boost with music/video en/de/transcoding too, sometimes as much as 50%, same goes for compressing and decompressing files.Sweet, that I do a lot of :D

Savage

izanbardprince
12th December 2007, 07:15 PM
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes

That is just my experience but, I am very happy with x86_64 at this point. The only i386 packages I use are wine ( which can be built for x86_64, but only i386 is in the repos for now ) and firefox which I don't actually use. Firefox.i386 is needed for nspluginwrapper to "wrap" the plugins so they work in the x86_64 bit version. Other than that I really haven't experienced any major difficulties.

The first thing I usually do ( by preference ) is remove all the i?86 packages wiith

yum erase *.i?86
then install the basearchonly plugin for yum so unless I specify an i386 package to be installed it will only install x86_64 packages. By default it will install both when you try to yum install something.


1. You don't need 32-bit Firefox for nspluginwrapper to work.

2. Removing i386 shared libraries is only going to cause problems when you want to run a 32-bit program.

leadgolem
12th December 2007, 07:51 PM
I just checked, you really don't need firefox.i386 for nspluginwrapper to work anymore. It is nice that silly dependency got fixed.:)

Now if only somebody could tell my why you need both the i386 and x86_64 version of nspluginwrapper installed for it to handle adobe's flash.

FriedChips
12th December 2007, 07:54 PM
I just checked, you really don't need firefox.i386 for nspluginwrapper to work anymore. It is nice that silly dependency got fixed.:)

Now if only somebody could tell my why you need both the i386 and x86_64 version of nspluginwrapper installed for it to handle adobe's flash.

That is good to know :D I hate that carp

savage
12th December 2007, 07:57 PM
Cool, so I just have 64-bit everything, 32-bit libs to fall back on for whatever need them, one other question, does the 64-bit DVD come with PXE images?

On 32-bit the kernel doesn't recognise my IDE DVD Writer and I have to network install.

Savage

forkbomb
12th December 2007, 08:08 PM
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
Yes

That is just my experience but, I am very happy with x86_64 at this point. The only i386 packages I use are wine ( which can be built for x86_64, but only i386 is in the repos for now ) and firefox which I don't actually use. Firefox.i386 is needed for nspluginwrapper to "wrap" the plugins so they work in the x86_64 bit version. Other than that I really haven't experienced any major difficulties.

The first thing I usually do ( by preference ) is remove all the i?86 packages wiith

yum erase *.i?86
then install the basearchonly plugin for yum so unless I specify an i386 package to be installed it will only install x86_64 packages. By default it will install both when you try to yum install something.

Ooh, I should do that. I've only been using my F7 64 install for a few days, so I'm assuming that wouldn't break my system too bad. All I really need is Firefox, and I think the flash-plugin is i386, but I could use nspluginswrapper (unless that's a F8 thing).

I noticed that doing some post-install stuff. Got sick of it installing 32-bit apps that I don't use, and I was alarmed when I ran yum list installed | grep i386! Can't imagine how much space all those unused packages are using, but on the other hand I have 18GB free space on /.

EDIT: with that basearchonly plugin, what about noarch packages? Will it install those, or just those packages ending in x86_64?

FriedChips
12th December 2007, 08:16 PM
yes it will also install noarch packages. noarch and x86_64 unless you specify otherwise. For instance "yum install firefox.i386" would still work fine. But if I say "yum install firefox" you guessed it x86_64 and noarch packages only :cool:


EDIT: and removing i?86 packages should never "break" your system. It will indeed removing ALL i?86 packages unless you --exclude=them but you should have much more than flash and nspluginwrapper that you need for i?86... OH and wine too. Be careful to specify not to remove wine if you use it cuz there are no x86_64 packages for wine in the repos. so you need to exclude=them if they are installed.

leadgolem
12th December 2007, 08:19 PM
That is good to know :D I hate that carpI don't particularly care for them either. They taste lousy.:)

FriedChips
12th December 2007, 08:21 PM
I don't particularly care for them either. They taste lousy.:)

not if you cook them right :eek: Oh and you can indeed get nspluginwrapper for f7

forkbomb
12th December 2007, 09:08 PM
yes it will also install noarch packages. noarch and x86_64 unless you specify otherwise. For instance "yum install firefox.i386" would still work fine. But if I say "yum install firefox" you guessed it x86_64 and noarch packages only :cool:


EDIT: and removing i?86 packages should never "break" your system. It will indeed removing ALL i?86 packages unless you --exclude=them but you should have much more than flash and nspluginwrapper that you need for i?86... OH and wine too. Be careful to specify not to remove wine if you use it cuz there are no x86_64 packages for wine in the repos. so you need to exclude=them if they are installed.

Sounds perfect. To bad I ran yum -y update before class and updated all those 386 packages I'll be deleting when I get home.

But what else 32-bit is "needed" typically? Are there certain libs that are available only in 32-bit?

I guess I could just run a mass remove and troubleshoot as I go.

FriedChips
12th December 2007, 09:22 PM
as far as I know nothing 64-bit is needed at all. you could even compile your own 64-bit wine. but for whatever reason fedora is not supplying those rpms yet. The only time you would NEED 32-bit libs is if you have a non-open source program that only distributes 32-bit binaries that you need to run. In that case the program will just gripe about not having whatever.so.1 and you will need to do

yum provides whatever.so.1
to see what you need to install. the earlier mentioned nvidia package also puts some needed GL libraries in /usr/lib/nvidia which 32-bit binary only games will not find. Such as Penumbra: overture. You will in that case need to link them to /usr/lib

ln -s /usr/lib/nvidia/whatever.so.1 /usr/lib/whatever.so.1
as long as you stick to fedora packages you will never run into this though as all fedora games are x86_64 :) as far as I've seen anyway.

forkbomb
12th December 2007, 09:49 PM
as far as I know nothing 64-bit is needed at all. you could even compile your own 64-bit wine. but for whatever reason fedora is not supplying those rpms yet. The only time you would NEED 32-bit libs is if you have a non-open source program that only distributes 32-bit binaries that you need to run. In that case the program will just gripe about not having whatever.so.1 and you will need to do

yum provides whatever.so.1
to see what you need to install. the earlier mentioned nvidia package also puts some needed GL libraries in /usr/lib/nvidia which 32-bit binary only games will not find. Such as Penumbra: overture. You will in that case need to link them to /usr/lib

ln -s /usr/lib/nvidia/whatever.so.1 /usr/lib/whatever.so.1
as long as you stick to fedora packages you will never run into this though as all fedora games are x86_64 :) as far as I've seen anyway.

Okay. Sounds simple enough.

So, one more dumb question about WINE (been meaning to set it up to use the Steam Engine and CSS) - as CSS and the Steam Engine are 32 bit, do you need 32-bit WINE or can WINE itself be 64-bit?

leadgolem
13th December 2007, 04:25 AM
as long as you stick to fedora packages you will never run into this though as all fedora games are x86_64 :) as far as I've seen anyway.The only one's I have seen that don't have 64bit versions are emulators from dribble. I tried compiling one for 64bit and couldn't get it too. What was interesting was there wasn't even the option to install the 32 bit version from the repo. I had to download it manually then yum localinstall it. It pulled all it's deps and runs fine though.

FriedChips
13th December 2007, 04:44 AM
I'm pretty sure you COULD use 64-bit wine, but I would just stick to whats in the repos