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LouArnold
29th October 2007, 05:49 AM
Somehow Yumex deleted all 519 packages...and I don't know why. I certainly didn't choose them all. It would be nice to get an answer to this, so I don't have it happen again.

I installed F7 Live CD earlier today. Grub gave me boot options of "Other" (Win2k on the other drive), and "Fedora...21-1.3194...". That I understood. I had Yum-Updatesd install the "security updates"; that worked. After that Grub gave me a 3rd option: "Fedora...22.9-91...". I assume that the 22.9 option is a new version of the system a new kernel?? How would I get rid of the old version and the Grub option?

I began tweaking things with Yumex to get rid of stuff I didn't want - like the silly investment chart, and power manager (for laptops). After much success, it suddenly started removing all 519 packages. (Yes, I watched it all in utter disbelief.)

ppesci
29th October 2007, 06:08 AM
Yes, that is the new kernel version. No problem because when you install a kernel, the last one (kernel you are using) is preserved, only the default kernel will be the new kernel installed. Grub is changed automaticaly without user intervention.

I imagine you try to delete the only kernel you have, and of course, all packages depends on kernel when is there only one kernel, by then, all packages need to be erased to be consistent. Of course, this is only a guess because I never tried this.

Time to reinstall.

HTH

Dan
29th October 2007, 06:52 AM
Ayup! This sounds like a full system vunderbork!

Easiest to make life simple. Don't fix, just bite the bullet and insert the installation CD/DVD.

A couple of things to consider after your re-install:

Power manager works not only for a laptop, but for a desktop too. It controls fun things like a UPS if one is installed, or powering down some device when they are not needed such as HDDs and monitors.

Secondly, Yum retains at least one older kernel, not to consume space, but to have a backup plan in case something goes wrong with the new kernal. By default, it retains only the last and current kernels. I have altered that on my systems to retain at least five. But, then again, I like to tinker with things best left alone too.

A final point. If you are just starting to play with Linux in general, and fedora in particular, it's a good idea to figure that if you like to customize, and play with things, plan on re-installing at least once or twice. Then give yourself permission to diddle to your heart's content. It's the best way to learn, and it's a lot of fun too.


Dan

LouArnold
29th October 2007, 07:13 AM
Secondly, Yum retains at least one older kernel, not to consume space, but to have a backup plan in case something goes wrong with the new kernal. By default, it retains only the last and current kernels.
Dan
So...I can't or shouldn't remove the old kernel's boot option from Grub? Can I even remove it.

And yes, watching it erase itself was sort of my permission to me to have fun.

Ok on the power management. I think its best that I add/remove/update through groups first and then via individual packages if I need to. Any idea what the pkg is called for the Investment Charting App?

Hlingler
29th October 2007, 07:25 AM
So...I can't or shouldn't remove the old kernel's boot option from Grub? Can I even remove it.Yes, you can, and no, you shouldn't. Yumex should ask you to approve the transaction prior to commiting. I would suggest that you review all those install/remove actions before commiting.
And yes, watching it erase itself was sort of my permission to me to have fun.

Ok on the power management. I think its best that I add/remove/update through groups first and then via individual packages if I need to. Any idea what the pkg is called for the Investment Charting App?On the Yumex Groups tab, you can probably find it under "Applications", maybe "Office".

Regards,
V

leigh123linux
29th October 2007, 08:20 AM
Time to reinstall.

HTH


I agree the O/P is not worth helping as his system is completely borked and is not worth saving anyway as it was only a fresh install.

Perhaps LouArnold will learn to be more careful next time ;)

wmakowski
29th October 2007, 04:34 PM
Yum writes a log of what gets erased, updated, or installed to syslog. You can go to /var/log/messages and search for yum to locate the entries. It also appears in root's daily logwatch. As for why 519 packages were removed, my only guess is that one of the groups became unchecked while you were in yumex.

I often hear the response in the forums to reinstall. In this case, I would consider it since 519 packages were removed and it is a fresh install. However, it is often more of a challenge and a better learning experience to figure out how to fix what you broke. My philosophy is that reinstalling is a last resort and keeping the system up and available should be a personal goal. That's my 2 cents worth.

Bill

Hlingler
29th October 2007, 07:34 PM
Yum writes a log of what gets erased, updated, or installed to syslog. You can go to /var/log/messages and search for yum to locate the entries. It also appears in root's daily logwatch.Yes, /var/log/messages should contain - among numerous things - records of yum's install/remove/update transactions. But /var/log/yum.log should also exist, and specifically contains only yum's transactions. Also, /var/log/rpmpkgs (part of rpm package, rewritten every day by a cron job, which should be enabled) lists all currently installed rpm packages. I also always install the package "logrpminstalls" from Dries RPM repo, a one-line script that writes a log file /var/log/rpminstalls which contains timestamps of every rpm package that gets installed, executed nightly by cron; it's useful for recording packages installed manually by rpm, which you won't find in /var/log/yum.log or elsewhere (not available for F7: manually download and install the FC6 version, or simply copy the script manually to /etc/cron.daily/logrpminstalls). I also always install package check-packages from city-fan.org repo, another short script: "This package keeps track of differences between the RPM database and the actual files installed on your system. It checks every night for any changes in these differences", and although it's an early-morning resource hog, it might alert you to critical changes (e.g., missing files, critical packages removed/updated), assuming you read your logwatch/system mail....

Regards,
V

LouArnold
30th October 2007, 02:03 PM
Thank you for your suggestions. What bothers me however is not what was removed, but why. There have been times when I wanted a few simple things gone, such as printing support (which I don't need on some systems) and then had the Gnome disappear. Things seem rather tightly interwoven in Linux, and its a bit scary when you need to tune things.

In any case, I will be re-installing...and tuning again.

Hlingler
30th October 2007, 03:12 PM
Thank you for your suggestions. What bothers me however is not what was removed, but why. There have been times when I wanted a few simple things gone, such as printing support (which I don't need on some systems) and then had the Gnome disappear. Things seem rather tightly interwoven in Linux, and its a bit scary when you need to tune things.

In any case, I will be re-installing...and tuning again.Yes, I have often found seemingly strange or inconvenient dependencies when trying to cull unwanted/unneeded packages. Package dependencies are determined by the developer(s)/programer(s) and are not generally editable, unless you build/compile from source code yourself. You can use rpm to force (option: -f) an install, ignoring dependency checks, but this will almost certainly result in lost functionality, broken software, program crashes, or worse. To avoid future problems, I would suggest disabling auto-updates, which you cannot monitor, and avoid using the yum "-y" option (=auto-answer yes to all questions) - this will force your review and specific approval of all package updates/installs/removes. And of course, carefully review all transactions before commiting....

Regards,
Vince

pete_1967
30th October 2007, 03:21 PM
Thank you for your suggestions. What bothers me however is not what was removed, but why. There have been times when I wanted a few simple things gone, such as printing support (which I don't need on some systems) and then had the Gnome disappear. Things seem rather tightly interwoven in Linux, and its a bit scary when you need to tune things.

In any case, I will be re-installing...and tuning again.

You always get a list of packages affected, whether you install new ones or remove old ones. Click 'Ok' blindly when Yum asks you if it's ok, and then wondering why everything broke afterwards isn't exactly Yum's (or Linux's) fault.

LouArnold
30th October 2007, 05:33 PM
You always get a list of packages affected, whether you install new ones or remove old ones. Click 'Ok' blindly when Yum asks you if it's ok, and then wondering why everything broke afterwards isn't exactly Yum's (or Linux's) fault.

I agree completely, it not Yum's fault. And I'll take the blame for the problem - at least in part, but ....The point is that when you are new at this, being a given a list of things to be removed isn't helpful, and its not logical that asking for printer support to be removed results in Gnome disappearing - and that was one simple test I did just to prove that I hadn't been careless. So I'm saying that things feel interwoven that makes it intimidating to use.

pete_1967
30th October 2007, 05:48 PM
I agree completely, it not Yum's fault. And I'll take the blame for the problem - at least in part, but ....The point is that when you are new at this, being a given a list of things to be removed isn't helpful, and its not logical that asking for printer support to be removed results in Gnome disappearing - and that was one simple test I did just to prove that I hadn't been careless. So I'm saying that things feel interwoven that makes it intimidating to use.

Well, even for a "newbie" isn't it quite common sense that if you say: "remove gnome-print" for example, you get an arm long list to be removed with "gnome-print" to stop and think twice before clicking 'Ok' and instead to go and look for info why?

What comes to dependencies, apart of some really mad ones, in general that is due UNIX principle of making and using lot of small and simple applications that do their intended (single) job extremely well, and nothing more. When you then build an application that incorporates functionality of many small ones (its essentially just a wrapper around them) in one, you end up with lot of dependencies.

Although they could be statically linked and compiled as self-contained executables, that'd just be duplication of functionality and lead to problems with patching/ updating software (say a chmod has an error that gets patched, now if application is compiled with chmod source, you'd have to update the lot also instead of just updating 1 copy of chmod).

Whether this system is good or bad depends on your opinion, but it ain't going to change anytime soon.

Hlingler
30th October 2007, 06:01 PM
I agree completely, it not Yum's fault. And I'll take the blame for the problem - at least in part, but ....The point is that when you are new at this, being a given a list of things to be removed isn't helpful,...Whenever I order a transaction, if yum returns with a list of extra packages to be installed "for dependencies", or even more so if yum returns with a list of packages to be removed "for dependencies", especially if I don't know what they are or it doesn't seem logical, I open a second terminal window (as any normal user) and do: "rpm -qi <insert package-name>" to find out what yum is going to vaporize, before I commit. You can always answer "no", go do research on the packages, and then re-run the same transaction later if it looks OK (I always edit /etc/yum.conf and set package cache metadata_expire=10800 [=3 hours] instead of default 1800 [=30 minutes], to give myself extra time before yum wants to refresh/re-download stuff). Extra packages to install are much less of a concern, but you will be given their size immediately, and you can find out quickly what they are by going to rpmfind.net, rpm.pbone.net, or rpmseek.com and doing a search.


...and its not logical that asking for printer support to be removed results in Gnome disappearing - and that was one simple test I did just to prove that I hadn't been careless. So I'm saying that things feel interwoven that makes it intimidating to use.No, it is not logical, but IIRC, that's why I couldn't/didn't remove certain packages. And Fedora is supposed to be "cutting-edge", so yes, it can be intimidating, and is not intended for casual use - or so I understand.

Regards,
Vince

hephasteus
31st October 2007, 04:46 AM
Somehow Yumex deleted all 519 packages...and I don't know why. I certainly didn't choose them all. It would be nice to get an answer to this, so I don't have it happen again.

I installed F7 Live CD earlier today. Grub gave me boot options of "Other" (Win2k on the other drive), and "Fedora...21-1.3194...". That I understood. I had Yum-Updatesd install the "security updates"; that worked. After that Grub gave me a 3rd option: "Fedora...22.9-91...". I assume that the 22.9 option is a new version of the system a new kernel?? How would I get rid of the old version and the Grub option?

I began tweaking things with Yumex to get rid of stuff I didn't want - like the silly investment chart, and power manager (for laptops). After much success, it suddenly started removing all 519 packages. (Yes, I watched it all in utter disbelief.)

I know you're just trying to keep things clean and neat and tidy but you really need to stop doing that. You have to have 2 kernels on system and need to just accept that as part of linux life.

nick.stumpos
31st October 2007, 04:54 AM
I know you're just trying to keep things clean and neat and tidy but you really need to stop doing that. You have to have 2 kernels on system and need to just accept that as part of linux life.
You dont have to have 2 kernels on your system, if he wants to have one, let him have one, the reasoning behind keeping the previous kernel is that if the new kernel panics or has other problems the previous kernel is there to fall back on, but by no means is it required, if you want to remove it go right ahead, just be aware you are getting rid of your "stable/safe" mode.

Dies
31st October 2007, 04:55 AM
I know you're just trying to keep things clean and neat and tidy but you really need to stop doing that. You have to have 2 kernels on system and need to just accept that as part of linux life.

Why?

Once you know a kernel is working, it's working. Have you ever had a kernel that was working fine just decide not to anymore?

I'm not saying it's not a good idea to keep two at all times, just that once you're comfortable with the new kernel there is no reason you can't remove the old.

hephasteus
31st October 2007, 04:56 AM
I agree completely, it not Yum's fault. And I'll take the blame for the problem - at least in part, but ....The point is that when you are new at this, being a given a list of things to be removed isn't helpful, and its not logical that asking for printer support to be removed results in Gnome disappearing - and that was one simple test I did just to prove that I hadn't been careless. So I'm saying that things feel interwoven that makes it intimidating to use.

That's just linux's greatest strength and greatest weakness the system uses huge huge c librarys to do things. Windows tries to do this too but back in the days of windows 2000, i think it was about then, people found out microsoft was telling people to do things differently than they were doing them trying to give speed advanatages to thier office products etc. It is and it isn't yumex's fault i suppose as the dependencies can get complicated in a huge hurry as i understand it.

LouArnold
31st October 2007, 02:07 PM
OK, I think everyone's made their points very well. I frankly thought my rather hapless post would be ignored. But I certainly did learn alot more than I expected.
I'm going to close this thread off (at least for me) by saying thank you to all, and by finding yet more interesting topics to explore.

Dan
31st October 2007, 03:09 PM
OK, Lou.

Thanks

Thread Closed.