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unixguru88
16th July 2007, 04:49 PM
Hello guys, this is my first post!

I installed Fedora 7 a few days ago and yum says there are 256 package updates amounting to 683 MB. I am in India and here you have data caps for internet usage and I am capped at 3 GB a month. I don't want to install all of these updates so can anyone tell me the really important ones. Is there any other way by which I can get these updates? Maybe download it from my friend who does not have a data cap and then transfer it to my computer(my friend does not want fedora on his computer, so I doubt this one's possible). Some of the applications I need like TeXmaker and Qalculate are crashing and I think this is because they are compiled with the newer KDE. Shall I try to compile them from the source rpms and forget about the updates or are there some critical stuff in the updates. Is there anyway in yum to see the Changelog or a short description on what is fixed in the update?

Also, I have noticed that pirut and pup are painfully slow(the interface, loading, searching, browsing etc.) and I also feel yum is slow compared to apt-get and pacman in installing packages, thought yum seems to be very fast in downloading rpms, almost as fast as apt-get in Ubuntu which has a mirror 3 kms from my house.

rjstaaf
16th July 2007, 05:00 PM
With 256 updates you must have installed pretty much every package. You can trim the updates down by going through Add/Remove and removing packages that you do not need and that should eliminate some of the updates. Just be careful as removing some packages can lead to problems with dependencies.

You might even want to try Yumex to maintain your updates as it does give you more options over the update process. You can get it from the Fedora repositories.

Here is the Yumex web site for more infor on Yumex.

http://www.yum-extender.org/cms/modules/news/

I do a fairly minimal install (for a desktop machine) and my machine still required 150 updates at more than 300Mb. If you go to the Fedora updates page you can see the descriptions of the various updates, at the minimum you need to install the Security updates.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FSA/F7

JN4OldSchool
16th July 2007, 05:03 PM
wow, 3GB a month? That bites! See what rjstaaf (oops, recieved a call as I was typing this response, rjstaff already answered :) )or anyone else has to say but my initial gut response is Fedora is probably not the distro for you. There are a lot of yum updates, just the cutting edge nature of fedora. Have you considered debian etch? It is a fine distro, almost perfect in every way and is amazingly static. I run two installs of etch and they have very few updates, always work and the only downside is they use older versions of apps. But this is an advantage to some because it is solid, tried and true, very stable...just not bleeding edge. I know I didnt answer your question. I really dont have an answer. I dont think a 3rd party grabbing updates for you will work. Other than longhand I dont know how to weed out the important updates. Study up on all the security packages and use yumex (a GUI yum frontend, better than pirut) to graphically view the packages and only install those and kernel and whatever else looks important. Maybe someone else has a better idea.

kirios
16th July 2007, 05:17 PM
CentOS seems to have fewer updates but otherwise works more or less like Fedora (except that some packages are pretty old).

JN4OldSchool
16th July 2007, 05:21 PM
CentOS seems to have fewer updates but otherwise works more or less like Fedora (except that some packages are pretty old).

CentOS is a great choice. The only downside may be less of a selection of available packages.

rjstaaf
16th July 2007, 05:28 PM
CentOS is a great choice. The only downside may be less of a selection of available packages.

By accident I stumbled across the Fedora EPEL project recently. Looks like they are working on that issue for RHEL, CentOS and probably other RedHat based distros. Currently there are more than 900 packages available and growing.


EPEL is a volunteer-based community effort from the Fedora project to create a repository of high-quality add-on packages that complement the Fedora-based Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and its compatible spinoffs such as CentOS or Scientific Linux.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL?highlight=%28epel%29

RahulSundaram
19th July 2007, 03:21 AM
Hello guys, this is my first post!

I installed Fedora 7 a few days ago and yum says there are 256 package updates amounting to 683 MB. I am in India and here you have data caps for internet usage and I am capped at 3 GB a month. I don't want to install all of these updates so can anyone tell me the really important ones. Is there any other way by which I can get these updates?

Prune out all the packages you dont want and install yum security plugin which will then prompt only for security updates which will cut down the amount of updates quite a bit. The next version of Fedora is planned have support for delta rpms (binary diff's between rpms) which will be quite a lot faster and much less bandwidth to download.

Note that apt-rpm is available in Fedora repository if you prefer apt-get.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/FeatureList
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tools/Apt

unixguru88
22nd July 2007, 09:20 AM
I screwed up pretty bad. I was first using yum to get rid of unnecessary stuff, then I felt it would be easier with pirut. So, I start deleting unecessary stuff using pirut from the big list. Sometimes it complained that packages were deps to other packages and cannot be removed, so I browse the list again and check those which I felt were dependecies to other packages and try again and it succesfully removes them. I kept this up for some time and I began to wonder how I was able to get it right all the time. So i unchecked some packages and pressed apply, pirut says they cannot be removed as other packages depend on them, I cancel and press apply again and shockingly pirut does'nt complain and just removes the packages. Now, many applications stopped working and I cannot accept such a bug is there in the default package manager. You can call it my stupidity, but I had no way of knowing such a thing would happen and obviously I did'nt RTM(hope for Fedora's case that something about this behaviour is there in the manual). I installed ubuntu now, atleast it does'nt have such a dumb bug. I haven't dumped fedora completely. At home my father is the main user and I don't want him to be using a disto where it is possile for him to screw up, given that he wants priveleges to install and remove software. I will use Fedora as soon as I shift to my new hostel and see if it fits my needs.

leigh123linux
22nd July 2007, 09:42 AM
I screwed up pretty bad. I was first using yum to get rid of unnecessary stuff, then I felt it would be easier with pirut. So, I start deleting unecessary stuff using pirut from the big list. Sometimes it complained that packages were deps to other packages and cannot be removed, so I browse the list again and check those which I felt were dependecies to other packages and try again and it succesfully removes them. I kept this up for some time and I began to wonder how I was able to get it right all the time. So i unchecked some packages and pressed apply, pirut says they cannot be removed as other packages depend on them, I cancel and press apply again and shockingly pirut does'nt complain and just removes the packages. Now, many applications stopped working and I cannot accept such a bug is there in the default package manager. You can call it my stupidity, but I had no way of knowing such a thing would happen and obviously I did'nt RTM(hope for Fedora's case that something about this behaviour is there in the manual). I installed ubuntu now, atleast it does'nt have such a dumb bug. I haven't dumped fedora completely. At home my father is the main user and I don't want him to be using a disto where it is possile for him to screw up, given that he wants priveleges to install and remove software. I will use Fedora as soon as I shift to my new hostel and see if it fits my needs.


Don't you just love "testing distro's" ( cutting edge ) :cool: , Learn by your mistake and try to use yum in future as it is a lot safer or try smart or yumex

su -
yum install yumex smart-gui

and if you can't get along with pirut

su -
yum erase pirut

kirios
22nd July 2007, 10:19 AM
I installed ubuntu now, atleast it does'nt have such a dumb bug.
Switching to Ubuntu may not necessarily be the answer. If you had tried to do the same thing on Ubuntu, Synaptic would have prompted you that it would remove all dependent packages and you would have ended up breaking your system anyway (if you had accepted the offer). I may be wrong, but I think this is because root privileges allow you to wreck your system if you're not careful, and not because it's a Fedora bug.

leigh123linux
22nd July 2007, 10:41 AM
Switching to Ubuntu may not necessarily be the answer. If you had tried to do the same thing on Ubuntu, Synaptic would have prompted you that it would remove all dependent packages and you would have ended up breaking your system anyway (if you had accepted the offer). I may be wrong, but I think this is because root privileges allow you to wreck your system if you're not careful, and not because it's a Fedora bug.

You are right synaptic will do the same as pirut ( if you ask it to do something dumb it will just follow your instructions no matter how dumb they are )

JN4OldSchool
22nd July 2007, 01:42 PM
I screwed up pretty bad. I was first using yum to get rid of unnecessary stuff, then I felt it would be easier with pirut. So, I start deleting unecessary stuff using pirut from the big list. Sometimes it complained that packages were deps to other packages and cannot be removed, so I browse the list again and check those which I felt were dependecies to other packages and try again and it succesfully removes them. I kept this up for some time and I began to wonder how I was able to get it right all the time. So i unchecked some packages and pressed apply, pirut says they cannot be removed as other packages depend on them, I cancel and press apply again and shockingly pirut does'nt complain and just removes the packages. Now, many applications stopped working and I cannot accept such a bug is there in the default package manager. You can call it my stupidity, but I had no way of knowing such a thing would happen and obviously I did'nt RTM(hope for Fedora's case that something about this behaviour is there in the manual). I installed ubuntu now, atleast it does'nt have such a dumb bug. I haven't dumped fedora completely. At home my father is the main user and I don't want him to be using a disto where it is possile for him to screw up, given that he wants priveleges to install and remove software. I will use Fedora as soon as I shift to my new hostel and see if it fits my needs.

You should really be ashamed of yourself! :( Not for what you did, that is a natural mistake, but for this crap you posted! Fedora bug? More like life bug, duh! Well gee officer, I just got my drivers license and I really dont know what I am doing yet. Who would have thought if you cut the wheel all the way over and nailed the gas the car would spin out? They shouldnt build cars like this! Get real! You screwed up, you learned, you wont do it again. When I first got Windows I tried "uninstalling" programs by simply deleting the file in program files. I suppose most people have done this. I dont have to mention the results. Then the nice computer repair guy showed me the "uninstall programs" in the settings manager! Duh! Is this Windows fault? Life doesnt come with a warning label!

pparks1
22nd July 2007, 01:52 PM
JN4OldSchool: Agree with everything that you said.

It's always funny to me how people will come along and try to give "particular Linux flavor" a bad name simply because they don't know what they are doing and screw something up on their own. Rather than say, "fedora just isn't for me", they instead say "Fedora sucks and I'm totally fed up with this crap".

Better yet are the Windows supporters who come here and try to talk us out of using Linux. They act as if we haven't actually used Windows or made the choice on our own to do something different. They knowingly say that they don't know Linux, tried it, it didn't work instantly out of the box with their unfamiliarity and they went back to Windows. <---seems like a great person to take advice from.

I'll be honest: Most of my Linux based problems (Fedora, CentOS, RHEL, SuSE and Ubuntu) have been caused by me or my lack of understanding. A few times it was a bad update or package causing the problem....but not often. I'm learning every day.

rjstaaf
22nd July 2007, 02:04 PM
Most of us pretty much already know this but for the newbies here is an FAQ from RedHat,,,

http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_61_1139.shtm


Issue:
What is the Fedora Project?
Resolution:

The Fedora Project is a Red-Hat-sponsored and community-supported open source project geared toward developers and highly technical enthusiasts using Linux in non-critical environments. It is also a proving ground for new technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products and the open source code base. The goal of the Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free software.

I think the primary problem here is newbies see all the buzz going on about Linux and they see Linux as a single entity and lump all the distros together incorrectly assuming they are or should all be the same. They do not understand that every distro has it's own objectives and target user which can lead to major differences from one distro to another.

Personally I think all these newbies coming here expecting an Ubuntu like experience are actually doing this forum and Fedora a disservice when they come in and expect to be spoon fed and wind up ranting about how Fedora sucks when in reality Fedora is just not the right distro for them. I have only been on these forums for a short time and I have already lost count how many of these kinds of threads there have been.

I know in other forums new users are sometimes confined to a specific area until they reach a certain number of posts. Maybe we can create a New Linux User area where newbies can post their problems and they can be made a ware of the focus of Fedora and that ranting will not be tolerated? Hopefully we can get a good discussion going on this and come up with some way we can reduce the number of these kinds of threads.

Thanks

Bob

leigh123linux
22nd July 2007, 02:20 PM
Most of us pretty much already know this but for the newbies here is an FAQ from RedHat,,,

http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_61_1139.shtm



I think the primary problem here is newbies see all the buzz going on about Linux and they see Linux as a single entity and lump all the distros together incorrectly assuming they are or should all be the same. They do not understand that every distro has it's own objectives and target user which can lead to major differences from one distro to another.

Personally I think all these newbies coming here expecting an Ubuntu like experience are actually doing this forum and Fedora a disservice when they come in and expect to be spoon fed and wind up ranting about how Fedora sucks when in reality Fedora is just not the right distro for them. I have only been on these forums for a short time and I have already lost count how many of these kinds of threads there have been.

I know in other forums new users are sometimes confined to a specific area until they reach a certain number of posts. Maybe we can create a New Linux User area where newbies can post their problems and they can be made a ware of the focus of Fedora and that ranting will not be tolerated? Hopefully we can get a good discussion going on this and come up with some way we can reduce the number of these kinds of threads.

Thanks

Bob


We could get the admins to add a filter for the word ubuntu or microsoft and reject any posts containing these words . :cool: :D

rjstaaf
22nd July 2007, 02:23 PM
We could get the admins to add a filter for the word ubuntu or microsoft and reject any posts containing these words . :cool: :D

I seem to recall suggesting that in another thread, don't think it went over well ;)

kirios
23rd July 2007, 03:02 PM
Personally I think all these newbies coming here expecting an Ubuntu like experience .... when in reality Fedora is just not the right distro for them.
I suppose that may be true to a certain extent but so many of them post about having previously tried Ubuntu that I'm inclined to think they weren't coping too well with Ubuntu either. I mean, why would they be trying a new distro if they're making progress with Ubuntu (or any other distro)? Over on the Ubuntu forums, it looks like a lot of new users just don't read the documentation and keep posting the same old questions over and over again. Maybe someone should release a 'Linux for Dummies' distro! :-)

rjstaaf
23rd July 2007, 03:07 PM
I suppose that may be true to a certain extent but so many of them seem to have tried Ubuntu before that I'm inclined to think they weren't coping too well with Ubuntu either. Over on the Ubuntu forums, it looks like a lot of new users just don't read the documentation and keep posting the same old questions over and over again. Maybe someone should release a 'Linux for Dummies' distro! :-)

I spend some time on the Ubuntu forums every now and then and that place is like a wild frontier. With over 300,000 members I guess it can be hard to moderate but it just seems like there is way too much chaff that you have to wade through that it is a wonder anyone can get any help over there.

metalworm
23rd July 2007, 03:15 PM
To OP: Hi there, I have the same problem like you. In my country, we have to pay for each MB we downloaded, so updates all the packets are a nightmare. I will show you my experiences with update:
1/ You should make the priority list for you updates. Write down which app we should update. With that, we can trim down the update. For example: I usually look update for: kernel, gnome*, xorg*, scim, and some app that I usually use because these app is what I usually uses. I hope you get my idea.
2/ Do not care to update which you not use or rare using. If they work well, leave it their. This one will reduced dramatically the updates for what we do not need.

kirios
23rd July 2007, 03:19 PM
I have only been on these forums for a short time and I have already lost count how many of these kinds of threads there have been.
But there are some positive ones too. This is one of my favourites. :-)

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=833426&postcount=25

unixguru88
23rd July 2007, 03:44 PM
I am sorry, if my post gave the impression that "Fedora sucks" because it does not, atleast I don't think so :rolleyes: . First of all, I am not a newbie and neither am i a guru(I hope to be one , as my nick name suggests). Before Fedora I was using Ubuntu and before that Arch Linux, I switched over from Arch to Ubuntu because of necessity as some of the packages I needed were not in AUR and I could not get them compiled. I liked Ubuntu but missed the bleeding edge and thought of going back to Arch but can't because of my 3 GB download limit. Precisely at this point pcworld gives away their special issue with a bootable Fedora DVD. I checked the packages which are available to make sure every thing I need is there in the DVD because the 3 GB is running out. Correct me if I am wrong but there is no equivalent of packages.ubuntu.com or Arch package search, so I had to manually verify the packages on the DVD and google to verify that eveything I need is indeed avialable for Fedora. Now, I am thinking "Wow, all the packages of Ubuntu and the bleeding edge of Arch". So, you'll agree that unlike a newbie, I made a thorugh investigation before choosing Fedora.

The only reason I got angry was that pirut never told that the packages it was removing were dependencies for others. It screams when you first click apply, but if you click again it will quietly do your bidding. I am not a genius in any way, but am I a dumb idiot if I expect that pirut will always scream if the packages I am removing are dependencies of others? I think that should be the correct behaviour. For the user who knows what he is doing, there is should be a special option like 'ignore-deps' or similar. Some of you guys say this is not a bug and is expected behaviour and I am a dumb idiot, well in that case I request all you geniuses running Fedora just add a dialog box when you first run pirut saying "By default pirut will not always warn you when you removing packages which are dependencies of other packages. Do you always want warnings? [yes, I am a lame brained Ubuntu user] [No, I am a Fedora user and a Genius]". This will greatly benefit all the lame brained idiots like me who want to use Fedora.


Switching to Ubuntu may not necessarily be the answer. If you had tried to do the same thing on Ubuntu, Synaptic would have prompted you that it would remove all dependent packages and you would have ended up breaking your system anyway (if you had accepted the offer). I may be wrong, but I think this is because root privileges allow you to wreck your system if you're not careful, and not because it's a Fedora bug.


I have not used Synaptic for about an year. I use aptitude for package management and I really liked yum because the syntax is very similar. I am a KDE user and just installed synaptic and a lot of dependencies from the ubuntu cd just to check it out. I marked libqt for removal and it says that all it's dependencies(a big list) will also be marked for removal. I press cancel, mark it again and synaptic says the same message again which is expected behaviour. Nice to know that 'aptitude remove synaptic' will get rid of all the useless packages which got installed with synaptic.


You should really be ashamed of yourself! Not for what you did, that is a natural mistake, but for this crap you posted! Fedora bug? More like life bug, duh! Well gee officer, I just got my drivers license and I really dont know what I am doing yet. Who would have thought if you cut the wheel all the way over and nailed the gas the car would spin out? They shouldnt build cars like this! Get real! You screwed up, you learned, you wont do it again.

I actually like the analogy even though there is little relavance. Let me give a similar one which is more relevant. I get a driver's license and drive around with my brand new car and I see a signboard saying "DANGER: Bridge under repair", so i take an another route and the next thing I know I am drowning in the river. This is exactly what happened to me.

The only dumb thing I did was installing a lot of uneccessay stuff which is the root cause of my present headache(why in hell did I install LAMP, GNOME and some devel packages with funny names). I usually install a minimal system and later add the packages as and when I need them but seeing so much software, something came over me and I started on a ticking mania. Just goes to show that if you don't do things the unix way, life will get screwed!

JN4OldSchool
23rd July 2007, 03:56 PM
Well, I am glad you explained the situation a little better, and you are the only one calling yourself stupid, dumb, lame or whatever...Hey, it happens, you know? :) You learn. I dont use Pirut, I have always disliked it because of lack of detail. Try this: yum install yumex. Yumex is so much better, so many more controls. And it will tell you about deps. But at the end of the day your last sentence about covers things: When in Rome you better not act like a Geek! :D

edit: BTW, I went back and read your initial post where you say you screwed up:


Sometimes it complained that packages were deps to other packages and cannot be removed, so I browse the list again and check those which I felt were dependecies to other packages and try again and it successfully removes them. I kept this up for some time and I began to wonder how I was able to get it right all the time. So i unchecked some packages and pressed apply, pirut says they cannot be removed as other packages depend on them, I cancel and press apply again and shockingly pirut doesn't complain and just removes the packages.

Using your analogy it sounds to me like you came across the "bridge out" sign but figured you might press on using just the frame girders of the bridge to get across even though the road wasnt laid yet. You were warned, you moved forward. Linux is like this, you have complete control! Fedora was actually nice enough to say "hey, wait a second, do you REALLY want to do this?" But let's say for a minute I DID want to remove all this stuff for some reason? Maybe I wanted to convert my DE desktop to a CLI server and remove Gnome and all the crap I wouldnt need. Windows wont let you do this, all its base packages are bundled together. Linux can be deconstructed package by package. It is what it is and we tend to like it this way. :)

kirios
23rd July 2007, 04:02 PM
Some of you guys say this is not a bug and is expected behaviour and I am a dumb idiot, well in that case I request all you geniuses running Fedora just add a dialog box when you first run pirut saying "By default pirut will not always warn you when you removing packages which are dependencies of other packages. Do you always want warnings? [yes, I am a lame brained Ubuntu user] [No, I am a Fedora user and a Genius]".

I marked libqt for removal and it says that all it's dependencies(a big list) will also be marked for removal. I press cancel, mark it again and synaptic says the same message again which is expected behaviour.
So the new dialog box for pirut should actually say "By default pirut will only warn you once when you removing packages which are dependencies of other packages." But I don't think this is true either...

unixguru88
23rd July 2007, 04:37 PM
Well, I am glad you explained the situation a little better, and you are the only one calling yourself stupid, dumb, lame or whatever...Hey, it happens, you know?

Reading the replies of my first post, I really felt that some were trying to say "it was entirely your stupidity and Fedora is for users who know what they are doing and you are not one of them". Sarcasm was intended when I referred to myself as a lame brained idiot.


So the new dialog box for pirut should actually say "By default pirut will only warn you once when you removing packages which are dependencies of other packages." But I don't think this is true either...

I'll try to explain piruts behaviour on my system which I did not like. Check out the wiki page for pirut (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide/Pirut?highlight=%28pirut%29). I quote the dependencies section

Dependencies

After applying changes, Pirut prompts to confirm the packages you have selected. Proceed if the list is correct, otherwise cancel and refine the selection.
Dependenices are packages that are required by another package to function correctly.
Pirut now resolves any dependencies. A dialog informs you which dependencies have been found, and are automatically marked for installation. Confirm this list to proceed.
When a package is removed it is possible other packages may have relied on it to function correctly. If this is the case Pirut also removes these other applications. Check the dependency dialog and cancel if any of the packages marked for removal are still needed. This can be corrected by refining your package selection.

What happened in my case is if I press apply after refining my selections pirut will not ask for confirmation and straight away remove the packages(I am not sure what happens to the dependencies). Since this was the first time I was using pirut I did not know this. After removing the software, pirut will come back to the browse tab. If you know go to list and again unmark software and press apply a confirmation box will apply, just cancel, refine your selection and press apply, pirut will remove the software without complaints. You can decide what should be the correct wordings for the dialog box.

JN4OldSchool
23rd July 2007, 05:01 PM
One thing I can say is you are on the right track with your thinking. I liked your first post today where you explained you got "check box fever" when installing and simply installed way too much. been there and done that. My first install of FC4 ended up running upwards of 15GB WITHOUT /home by the time FC5 came out. I went "repo crazy" and installed everything and anything. I learned, after going through months of ridiculous yum updates every other day. The best way to handle Fedora (or any distro for that matter) is install the 700MB live CD. Then install apps only as you need them. In other words, I have a .GED database I use with Gramps. But due to school and other distractions I havent used this yet in F7, so Gramps is not installed yet and wont be till i need it. If I want to play with an app I will install it and if I feel I will never use it again I dump it. My XFCE menu is pathetically small compared to past installs but things are so much quicker and easier to handle.

The flip side of this coin is that a lot of base packages, once installed, cant be easily removed. You will bork the whole system. I also learned this early on and the biggest offender has always been (up till the live F7 KDE version) KDE users forced to install with Gnome then installing KDE and wanting to remove Gnome. This can be done, but I strongly urge against it unless you are really sure of what you are doing. You will end up with an install that wont start at all. Just leave Gnome, it isnt hurting anything, with drive space what it is today who cares about an extra GB here or there? Besides, if KDE ever screwed up that Gnome might come in handy. Linux was never meant to be about idiotproofing. It is about choice and flexibility but along with that comes some user responsibility to know what you are doing. This is why I say to just buck up and move on. You learned something and that is the whole point.