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#16
21st November 2011, 03:23 AM
 cmuAdamson Offline Registered User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 2
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by screamin_jesus Oh, calm down ... Just because you can't use it properly doesn't mean its bad

Condescension doesn't help what you're trying to say. Changing the interface so that a common keystroke now behaves very differently frustrates users. I'm hitting a keystroke I hit 30 times an hour and instead of jumping to the previous window like it's done for the last 20 years, it jumps me to an unrelated window on a different desktop. I shouldn't have to stop my productivity to learn a new "Default" feature -- the new feature should be the add-on, not the other way around.
#17
21st November 2011, 03:52 PM
 JuhaniJaakola Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 74
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by cmuAdamson Condescension doesn't help what you're trying to say. Changing the interface so that a common keystroke now behaves very differently frustrates users. I'm hitting a keystroke I hit 30 times an hour and instead of jumping to the previous window like it's done for the last 20 years, it jumps me to an unrelated window on a different desktop. I shouldn't have to stop my productivity to learn a new "Default" feature -- the new feature should be the add-on, not the other way around.
I totally agree with you. Alt-Tab is so important to me that it forced me to switch from Gnome3 to KDE.
#18
21st November 2011, 05:18 PM
 screamin_jesus Offline Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 232
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JuhaniJaakola I totally agree with you. Alt-Tab is so important to me that it forced me to switch from Gnome3 to KDE.
So hyperbolic. You can change back to the old behavior by installing a single extension, but instead you switched desktop environments?

You guys are sounding pretty ridiculous.
#19
21st November 2011, 07:43 PM
 JuhaniJaakola Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 74
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by screamin_jesus So hyperbolic. You can change back to the old behavior by installing a single extension, but instead you switched desktop environments? You guys are sounding pretty ridiculous.
I have tried gnome-shell-extension-alternate-tab, but it crashes gnome-shell. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=718420 - this bug is still in status NEW!

After having struggled with that for weeks I just concluded that life is too short to make Gnome3 work. Fortunately we have alternatives!
#20
25th November 2011, 02:49 PM
 ssam Offline Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 25
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

I dont find grouping by application very useful. just because 2 windows are gnome-terminal does not mean that they are related in anyway as they may be running different apps inside them. it would be more useful to be able to switch quickly between a set of windows that are being used for the same task. terminal with editor, terminal for running script, and browser with some documentation.

also when you alt tab between apps, it can reorder the windows with in each app.

also it can be hard to distinguish between 2 windows in the preview. I would much prefer to have the windows raise as i cycle through so i can see them properly.
#21
1st March 2012, 08:43 AM
 noll1 Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 2
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JuhaniJaakola I have tried gnome-shell-extension-alternate-tab, but it crashes gnome-shell. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=718420 - this bug is still in status NEW! After having struggled with that for weeks I just concluded that life is too short to make Gnome3 work. Fortunately we have alternatives!
I have been using Linux exclusively for around 8 years, but after trying Gnome 3 I just quit and installed Windows 7.
I didn't even try to find a solution for the alt-tab issue, I am not going to try to fight upstream so if this is the direction then I can just as well use Windows.

Btw, I re-tried Gnome again when 3.2 was released, but have only booted to it twice, one of which was to copy all my files over to an external drive.
#22
1st March 2012, 11:24 AM
 Adunaic Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Lancaster, UK Posts: 919
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

\begin{annoyed rant at people complaining}

Always with the complaining. If you do not like it, do not use it. There are other options - if there are not, then write one yourself (it is open source after all). Those who then complain that they like nothing else but do not know how to / cannot be bothered to write an extention to do what they want, you are being given this for free, design can only be motivated by what the person who is writting it thinks is best.

\end{annoyed rant at people complaining}

Useful infomation:

There are 3 key combos for changing between windows in GNOME Shell. These are more or less for two ways of changing windows.

Alt+Tab - change between applications across all work spaces.
Alt+ - change between windows of an application on all workspaces.
Alt+Esc - change between windows of ANY application on the current workspace ONLY.

All of these (if pressed once) will swap between the applications/windows in order of use on the current workspace only - that is, the priority of a window is lowered when it is on a different workspace, regardless of when it was last used.
#23
2nd March 2012, 08:51 PM
 noll1 Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Sweden Posts: 2
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

As you say, 'If you do not like it, do not use it'.
I did stop using it, I just figured I'd +1 all the people who claim this is not working for them.

To differentiate between applications and windows in task switching does not make sense to me at all. When I think about it I have never had the need to quickly change to the first window of a specific application, at least I cannot remember such an occasion.
I have the need to change between windows all the time, *and* there was a more or less standard way of doing this.
#24
9th June 2012, 08:26 AM
 WhizzMan Offline Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 4
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

First of all, a lot of people don't use just one computer with one operating system on it, but have to switch between several ones. You wouldn't want to put a Dvorak keyboard layout in Gnome default and tell people to write an extension themselves if they don't like it. This is basic use behaveour and you made it a pain to even switch to what people are used to. Maybe having the alt-~ option is superior for a small group of power users, but the average user just wants alt-tab between the apps on that desktop, like they are used to and have configured the same on every other OS and computer. Even if your only computer only has one OS and gnome 3 on it, you'll be faced with using other people's computers and most of those inevitably will not have gnome 3 on them. If you don't agree, ask Linus about this issue and have a discussion with him about it. I'm certain he'll be able to convince you otherwise.

The addon is reported broken. Is it just for this one guy, or is it for more people? Not investigating that should be a very good reason not to torch anyone being cautious about installing it.
#25
12th December 2012, 01:40 PM
 LeFou Offline Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 67
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ssam I dont find grouping by application very useful. just because 2 windows are gnome-terminal does not mean that they are related in anyway
This. So very this. To go further: the way I (and I suspect a lot of ppl) work, it is *far* *more* likely that 2 terminal, or two firefox, windows are *un* related. A typical set of windows/tabs is:

Terminal Window 1: tab for vi, tab for database cli, tab to commit whatever I'm editing in vi

Firefox Window 1: tab (A) for documentation on what I'm doing, tab (B)to preview the website I'm building, tab (3) with cracked.com for taking a break

TermWindow2: same basic tabs, but for a totally different project
Firefox Window 2: same tabs for a totally different project

"Grouping" windows is fantastic if I can control the grouping. I have *zero* problem getting used to Alt~ instead of alt-tab to switch between Term1 and Fox1. But that's not was implemented.

What was implemented *doubles* the number of keystrokes for something I do over 20 times an hour.

Furthermore: If I'm in term1 and am lucky, Fox1 is first in its group and therefore just an Alt-tab away, but doing this *also* raises Fox2 (a completely unrelated window) above Terminal1. Now, to look at what I'm editing and the effect of edits side-by-side, the sequence is:

Alt-tab, release (2 fox windows are now all I can see), Alt-Tab to the term group, pause, Alt~ a couple times to make sure I'm switching back to the right terminal (terminal contents are hard to distinguish in preview), and release.

Again: 20 times an hour. I don't want to rant, because I think I can get what I need using the workspaces. This just seems to be something that was put in to make Gnome more Mac-like, without actual usability analysis.

Attaching the old behavior to a new keystroke is fine; removing it completely is not
#26
7th January 2013, 01:01 PM
 jedihawk Offline Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LeFou This. So very this. To go further: the way I (and I suspect a lot of ppl) work, it is *far* *more* likely that 2 terminal, or two firefox, windows are *un* related. A typical set of windows/tabs is: Terminal Window 1: tab for vi, tab for database cli, tab to commit whatever I'm editing in vi Firefox Window 1: tab (A) for documentation on what I'm doing, tab (B)to preview the website I'm building, tab (3) with cracked.com for taking a break TermWindow2: same basic tabs, but for a totally different project Firefox Window 2: same tabs for a totally different project "Grouping" windows is fantastic if I can control the grouping. I have *zero* problem getting used to Alt~ instead of alt-tab to switch between Term1 and Fox1. But that's not was implemented. What was implemented *doubles* the number of keystrokes for something I do over 20 times an hour. Furthermore: If I'm in term1 and am lucky, Fox1 is first in its group and therefore just an Alt-tab away, but doing this *also* raises Fox2 (a completely unrelated window) above Terminal1. Now, to look at what I'm editing and the effect of edits side-by-side, the sequence is: Alt-tab, release (2 fox windows are now all I can see), Alt-Tab to the term group, pause, Alt~ a couple times to make sure I'm switching back to the right terminal (terminal contents are hard to distinguish in preview), and release. Again: 20 times an hour. I don't want to rant, because I think I can get what I need using the workspaces. This just seems to be something that was put in to make Gnome more Mac-like, without actual usability analysis. Attaching the old behavior to a new keystroke is fine; removing it completely is not
Yes, yes!, and YES!!

When using the standard Alt-Tab to switch between windows, the entire BATCH (or GROUP) of windows COVERS UP what I was working on.

I've been using linux and some kind of GUI since the late '90's. Changing this very basic behavior was one of the stupidest decisions the developers have made when it comes to usability as it instantly alienates virtually their entire user base.

This new Alt-Tab behavior should have NOT been the new default, with no alternate option available (the "alternate" CRASHES). Standard Alt-Tab window switching should have been the default, with the OPTION to enable this new fancy, over-worked window/app grouping mess so that people can double their workload if they want to.

I have no problem switching to Alt- (as an example), but when I need to switch between Firefox and my terminal window where I'm running vim on a .php file, I need to use Alt-Tab, and it should not raise an entire GROUP of Firefox windows, nor should it raise all the other terminal windows I have (some of which are connected to remote servers). That just does not make any sense, and is not usable.

As a workaround, I've swapped Alt-Tab for Alt-Esc. It works well enough, even though it doesn't give me a list of windows.

Development should be directed towards, "how can we make this more usable?" rather than, "how can we piss off our entire use base?"
#27
2nd March 2013, 08:47 PM
 sehe padding Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NL Posts: 2
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jedihawk Yes, yes!, and YES!! What was implemented *doubles* the number of keystrokes for something I do over 20 times an hour.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jedihawk What was implemented *doubles* the number of keystrokes for something I do over 20 times an hour.
^ That is sadly not the whole story. It might _double_ the keystrokes, but it makes the operation context dependent. Alt-Tab used to _always do the same thing_ (switch the MRU window). _Now_ it depends! It might do the same, or do something else entirely. You can't know unless you (a) always work with the exact same sets of windows and memorize stuff (b) _look at the screen_ to see whatever the heck is happening.

THIS is what takes a lot more time than just an extra keystroke. "Don't make me think" anyone?

(I think it's, once again, the story of GUI developers forgetting about people that prefer to use the keyboard. It's happened on Windows, OSX, KDE, why not Gnome...)
#28
2nd March 2013, 09:11 PM
 hmaarrfk Offline Registered User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 220
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

https://extensions.gnome.org/

Also install gnome-tweak-tools more for advanced config
Code:
 sudo yum install gnome-tweak-tool
#29
2nd March 2013, 10:47 PM
 sehe padding Offline Registered User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NL Posts: 2
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Kudos for that!

I knew about tweak tool (it comes by default in ubuntu)

However, I'd never have guessed from that bland interface that "Alternatetab" (WUT!??!? There is no tabs in the UI) would have any influence on "Task Switching".

Well, turns out it does. <whistle/>

Thanks for helping me realize that

Anyone here know whether I could simply get Fusion/Compiz behaviour back? Completely with proper configuration tools (CCSM)? That rocked and was lightyears ahead of any competition.

Ah. Good times. And - "progress"
#30
2nd March 2013, 11:22 PM
 hmaarrfk Offline Registered User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 220
Re: Alt-Tab in Gnome 3

Compiz DOES NOT work with Gnome Shell. They are just different technologies.

I would just look through the extensions to see if any of these help make Gnome Shell more usable.

There is also cinamon, which is Mint's answer to Gnome Shell and Unity.

http://cinnamon.linuxmint.com/

I would like it if they released everything as independent extensions, but meh.

 Tags alttab, gnome