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  #1  
Old 26th March 2011, 03:28 PM
DBelton Offline
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cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

I have run into one of my first major reasons not to upgrade to F15 if I can't find a solution to this problem. Hope some of you out there have a solution.

with systemd, is there any way to have services start in multi-user (old runlevel 3) but NOT start in graphical (old runlevel 5)?

It seems that everything that you set up to start in multi-user (runlevel 3) gets started when you start in graphical (runlevel 5)

with upstart (or sysvinit) You could set up a service to run only in runlevel 3, or you could put in both places and have it start up in runlevel 3 and runlevel 5.
  #2  
Old 26th March 2011, 04:39 PM
vallimar Online
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

There may be some oblique shoddily documented method to do so, but I wouldn't know it.
From what I understood before, they are essentially the same, just that the graphical targets
also starts up X instead of dropping you to a terminal, which may or may not behave as expected.

They decided that runlevels were too antiquated and so removed them from consideration.

You can install upstart and initscripts-legacy, but it's really kind of a hacky method. You also
need to specify init=/sbin/upstart on the boot cmdline.

I rebuilt the initscripts and upstart packages for myself today to dump most of the systemd
bits to see if that improves it further. Cannot test until later when I am at that machine though.
  #3  
Old 26th March 2011, 04:44 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

It's looking like I may have to go that route on my system. I have several services that I only want to start in runlevel 3. I don't want them running in a graphical boot.

I can tell already that systemd is going to go over like a lead balloon with linux server administrators.
  #4  
Old 26th March 2011, 06:53 PM
smr54 Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

I really wonder about this, as I don't know if it's just me, or admins in general.

For several years, RH was pretty much in the position of Windows, the only Linux server distribution around. Yes, there was Slack and Debian, but Debian was too anti-commercial, and often, the buying, and even implementation decisions, are made by those who figure, well, they have commercial support, blah blah.

Now, Ubuntu is starting a server install, which is a bit more like a server than a typical RH, with its attachment to Gnome--for example, if you want X on RHEL, and don't want 3rd party software, you have KDE, Gnome, or twm. Scientific Linux is offering matchbox, but I think that's SL only. (Though I'm not sure.)

SuSE has its version, don't know though what's going on with Novell, MS and all that. Oracle is probably the biggest threat, as they seem to be one of the truly evil companies, and have so much money that their executives' *rejected* mistresses can afford Times Square billboard ads to tell how evil the rejecting executive is. At present, Oracle is pretty much following RH, but one wonders, if RH goes more Windows-y with all this Fedora stuff aimed at the new user, if there is a market for sysadmins who will say, If I wanted Windows, we'd have gotten Windows, and start looking for other systems.

FreeBSD seems to have greatly improved binary upgrading, and that might start getting more of a corporate footing as well. I really don't know. I know, from forums, mailling lists, and personal friends, that a lot of sysadmin types don't like the GUI-ness of RH, as well as its bloat, but have no idea if this will have gradual, eventual impact, for example, Oracle saying, let's redo RH without all the GUI-ness, and start offering something that kept the good and got rid of what many sysadmins feel is bad.

If it happens, it won't be soon. RHEL6 hasn't gone over the edge, despite killing text mode installation, and businesses have a great deal of inertia, but one does wonder.

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

Here's a cheat sheet for systemd.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SysVi...emd_Cheatsheet

So far, it seems, like much of Fedora, overcomplicated and unnecessary.
  #5  
Old 26th March 2011, 07:12 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

thanks for that link

I still don't see a way to load a service in the multi-user runlevel but not in the graphic runlevel, though It looks like the graphic runlevel runs everything in multi-user then runs graphic to add the graphic stuff.
  #6  
Old 26th March 2011, 07:58 PM
smr54 Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

Heh, here's another rant for ya then. It's actually from a FreeBSD user discussing usability. (One could add Arch, Slack, and possibly Debian to the list.)

Quote:
BSD has always considered it more important to let the advanced user do more, than to let the novice do more. The theory, of course, is that novices become advanced users very quickly (a year or two), while advanced users use the system for a long time (decades). So there's probably less "fluffy" handholding frontends built into the system. On the other hand, addon packages carry their own. If KDE has some sort of user-help or tutorial or whatever built into it (I don't know, I don't use it), it'll have it on BSD too, since KDE is KDE wherever you use it. So it's rarely as much of an issue as it sounds.
Unfortunately, Fedora and many, probably most others, seem to be more into the fluff, rather than something useful to the more advanced user, be they sysadmin or not. And stuff gets into Gnome and KDE regardless, as mentioned in the quote. I frankly literally laughed out loud, as opposed to CQTM, chuckling quietly to myself, when I got a letter from a BSD using friend, complaining about what they termed useless piece of garbage, pulseaudio. (Hrrm, developed)by the same person doing systemd.)


Trollishly yours,

Last edited by smr54; 26th March 2011 at 08:01 PM.
  #7  
Old 26th March 2011, 08:00 PM
dd_wizard Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

Quote:
Multi-user, graphical. Usually has all the services of runlevel 3 plus a graphical login.
The keword here is usually. That makes me think there's a way to do what you want to do. Maybe you should try posting on the dev mailing list, or file a bug?

dd_wizard
  #8  
Old 26th March 2011, 09:00 PM
marko Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

Doesn't the stuff covered here imply that systemd does have ways to modify default run levels for services?

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Soft...AskedQuestions
  #9  
Old 26th March 2011, 09:03 PM
jpollard Online
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

Systemd appears to be trying to get rid of runlevels entirely.

You should be able to get the sysV init by adding "init=/sbin/init" or "init=/sbin/upstart" to the grub boot command line, but make sure you have upstart in /sbin.

I think (don't know for a fact) F15 still includes upstart by default.
  #10  
Old 26th March 2011, 10:31 PM
jvillain Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

Here is what you can do. First cd to /lib/systemd/system

now runlevel5.target is a symlink to graphical.target.

If you do a cat on the graphical target you will see in the unit section a line that says

After=multi-user.target

but it doesn't have to be that. You could set up a new target multi-user-light.target and have it start what ever you want. Then set the line After=multi-user-light.target.

Or you could change it to After=basic.target and then load up the directory graphical.target.wants with symlinks to the services you do want to start.

systemd is very flexable and will let you do way more than init ever would. But that is a blessing and a curse.
  #11  
Old 27th March 2011, 12:12 AM
DBelton Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

ok I filed a bug and got a response. Not the greatest solution in the world, but it seems like it would work

create a new .target that pulls in the multi-user.target
add the services I want to be unique to multi-user in the new target
then start that target instead of the multi-user.target when I wish to be in multi-user (non-graphical) mode

That way, I could keep the services I want to start in both runlevels in multi-user.target, the extra graphical services in graphical.target and the services I only want run in multi-user (non-graphical) in new.target.

Now all I need to figure out is how to control the actual order of loading those services...

(This is a really &^$&^ed up way of getting a system started, but I guess it works.)

comes out very very close to what jvillain suggested above..

Last edited by DBelton; 27th March 2011 at 12:28 AM.
  #12  
Old 27th March 2011, 02:27 AM
jvillain Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

Quote:
Now all I need to figure out is how to control the actual order of loading those services...
And this is where we get more good and bad. You have to ask your self which services actually have to load in any particular order. The network needs to be running before NFS is going to work for you for example. But your web server and mail server can be starting up at the same time and don't need to be scheduled. Also we are atleast part way down the road but one of the things that systemd is supposed to handle is if your service has a dependency that isn't running already it will start the dependency for you. That requires all applications to be able to talk on the dbus to see who is running and I am sure not every one has rewritten their code to do that. If a service falls over it can automatically be restarted if wanted as well but I haven't figured out how to do that yet.

Here is some more documentation for you to look at. In particular you will probably find the first one interesting as it should help you start thinking about new ways to start looking at starting services. I'm not saying you will like it, just that there are options.

One last thing. If some thing isn't listed in a new fangled systemd service or target or what ever systemd will still look in the fsab, init.d directory etc for config information as a fall back.


http://0pointer.de/public/systemd-man/daemon.html

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/sys...-admins-1.html
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/sys...-admins-2.html
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/sys...-admins-3.html
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/sys...-admins-4.html

And you will want to read through each of these as well. (I know, I know)

http://0pointer.de/public/systemd-man/
  #13  
Old 27th March 2011, 02:34 AM
vallimar Online
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

This does not seem like a better system at all. All that to do what took 2 quick commands
before? Thus far, I've only seen "way more complex (and broken)", not "way more". Having
to do triple (or more) the amount of work to achieve the same effect as before is not what
I would call flexibility. They also have yet to live up to their promises. Where are all
the on-demand bits we were promised from the get-go.. non-existant. They are already on
version 20 and its in a constant state of broken in some manner or another. SysVinit was
solid for years.. even upstart was pretty solid from the beginning, and you could actually
drop it in and run with it.. systemd.. not so much. You practically have to be one of the
developers to even know how to operate the thing. /endrant
  #14  
Old 27th March 2011, 02:43 AM
DBelton Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

interesting. It looks like systemd will build the *.mount and *.automount for you from /etc/fstab if you add it to your fstab options. (comment=systemd.mount or comment=systemd.automount)

Edit:

your rant has a lot of very valid points, vallimar. I am trying to get into systemd and understand it, but the more I get into it, the more I see it is a PITA to use. Rather than typing 6-10 characters to add a service, now it takes 10 times that

Last edited by DBelton; 27th March 2011 at 02:47 AM.
  #15  
Old 27th March 2011, 09:20 AM
nimnull22 Offline
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Re: cussing systemd - any way to get rid of it?

I do not understand you.
Linux is just a "construction set" you can choose what to do by your self. If you want to have new kernel from F15 on F14 get a better repo. mirror of F15 and upgrade like yum upgrade kernel*, if you wish to add xorg and mesa - yum upgrade xorg, and so on. If you do not like systemd add init=/sbin/upstart to boot line. That is all. I think it is not necessary to upgrade all: kernel X11 and may be some applications, everything else can be from F14 - it will perfectly work.

This is what I learned so far.
 

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