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  #16  
Old 25th October 2009, 11:04 PM
troyatlarge Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjvanwyk View Post
I'd add that if you "convert" people to Linux, you've probably got at least a little bit of moral obligation to provide at least some support in the event of issues.

Don't just "convert" somebody and then turn on your heels and walk away.

Of course there is help - I give them a live show of using it. They also get my phone number and work number, a link to the forum for the operating system being used, a howto, and a document on some of the basics like howto update, get on-line, open the browser, open a word document. Thus far I have received no calls.

All the same, even if I did just send them out the door, one is hard pressed to believe it would be any harder on them than walking away with a new computer with Windows on it.

I stand corrected on the price of Windows and office - I had prices for systems that are like what you get with OpenOffice for free, not the watered down stuff. Here is the Microsoft price list from their web site for all to see (not trying to sell it here): http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft...eric&WT.srch=1

Just to be fair, here is the link to OpenOffice, which offers everything Microsoft does in their most expensive full featured thing - but the cost - well, its FREE http://www.openoffice.org/ Furthermore, its every bit as good if not better - and it WILL be able to open next years version without having to shell out more money.


Quote:
EDIT: there's also a fine line between "moderation" and "gullibility." A lot of computer users cross the line into gullible territory.
Like the one going around facebook and myspace wherein a thing comes up claiming you need to update Adobe - if it gets past your "security", then all your friends get the little window claiming Adobe needs to be updated - it seems that "keeping your system secure" is good way to "fool" the "idiots" into loading up on malware. Then, of course, there is the idiot proof stuff - like this from an article in computer weekly this last October:

"Cybercriminals have rapidly increased their capability to exploit browser vulnerabilities to pass on infections to website visitors without requiring any interaction.

But online banking fraud is not increasing at the same rate, growing by 55% in the UK, compared with the 1,000% increase in the malware infection rate."

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articl...d-the-line.htm

Or what about this:
"Taiwan's computers were the most likely to be infected, at a rate of 69 percent, and the Russian Federation was close behind at 68 percent. The U.S. was ninth on Panda's list, with a malware infection rate of just over 58 percent, while the least infected country studied was Norway, at slightly less than 40 percent."
http://www.mxlogic.com/securitynews/...ptember721.cfm

You all are quite correct - you do need your waders in face of that much crap running around.
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  #17  
Old 25th October 2009, 11:17 PM
forkbomb Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troyatlarge View Post
Of course there is help - I give them a live show of using it. They also get my phone number and work number, a link to the forum for the operating system being used, a howto, and a document on some of the basics like howto update, get on-line, open the browser, open a word document. Thus far I have received no calls.
Great.

Quote:
I stand corrected on the price of Windows and office - I had prices for systems that are like what you get with OpenOffice for free, not the watered down stuff. Here is the Microsoft price list from their web site for all to see (not trying to sell it here): http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft...eric&WT.srch=1
Hey, don't get me wrong. I said here (or in another thread? I forget) that I can get a copy of Ofice 07 for $20 but it's not even worth that for my needs.

Quote:
Just to be fair, here is the link to OpenOffice, which offers everything Microsoft does
Nice try. I don't have need for MS Office (as evidenced by the fact that I'm still too cheap to buy it for $20), but even I'll admit MS Office offers quite a bit of functionality that OpenOffice lacks.


The problem re: malware is preciesely that the most important attack vector still exists and probably always will - gullible and poorly informed users.
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Last edited by forkbomb; 25th October 2009 at 11:19 PM.
  #18  
Old 25th October 2009, 11:40 PM
JN4OldSchool Offline
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OO.o cannot touch Office 2007. Word vs Writer is just the tip of that iceberg, Excel blows Calc away, there just is no comparison. PowerPoint is the standard and Impress lacks even 1/4 of the features. But the real test is when you want to embed these formats together. Office even intertwines with QuickBook Pro, which Linux does not even have an equivalent.

Listen, I am with Tom. I do not want to discourage your enthusiasm. You just discovered Linux and you want to convert the world. Heck, most of us were there once too, you will outgrow it. You will see the white underbelly of Linux and realize that it aint the cat's meow either. If OO.o is sufficient for your needs then you would be a fool to pay for an office suite. That is just common sense. I use OO.o for my business needs despite having Vista Ultimate and Office 2007 Pro which I got for under $20 each through my school. I just completed an Excel/Acess/PowerPoint class and let me tell you brother, you dont know even an iota what these programs can do. It is simply awesome. I understand your dislike of MS. I cant stand the company, they are evil. I was MS free for years, school forced me back. I am happy it did, Vista gets a bad rap. It is a great OS and I am sure Windows 7 will be even better. What I am calling full of crap are the statements about Windows. They are very uninformed. I agree with Tom, I dont know HOW you could infest Vista, even trying. Even if you did nothing beyond the default install it is safe. Firewall, auto update, and Defender on. You are simply spewing FUD about MS, and in my book that makes you just as guilty as them spewing FUD about Linux. I dont say that to antagonize you or make you angry. I say it to maybe show you that you can still evangelize Linux without stooping to measures that make you appear immature and uninformed. Sell Linux on its own merit, not through trying to one up MS. You will never do it, MS beats Linux in many ways. Linux beats Windows in many other, more important ways. Linux is the better OS. Few will ever realize that. It is okay to show where Linux excels, but you dont need to drag Windows through the dirt to do that.

Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth.
  #19  
Old 25th October 2009, 11:52 PM
forkbomb Offline
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Yup. I agree that purchasing MS Office is foolish for most. For most users, the OpenOffice suite has enough functionality. More than enough, even. A lot of users can go months at a time needing little more than Abiword.

But saying that most users have no need for the functionality of MS Office is totally different from claiming that OpenOffice has as many features as MS Office.

(Other unsung programs of the MSOffice suite are Visio and Project.)

Brace for the flames, Sean.
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  #20  
Old 26th October 2009, 12:59 AM
Dies Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjvanwyk View Post
A lot of users can go months at a time needing little more than Abiword.
You really should have gone even further.

A lot of, probably most, users can go months at a time needing little more than <your favorite text editor here>.

  #21  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:09 AM
scottro Offline
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I'm not familiar with Office, but will take the word of power users, e.g., JN4, that it has features OO lacks.

However, as Dies and Tom point out, the vast majority don't need these functions.

Also, to put on the CM hat for a moment, thank you all for being polite about this. These can be interesting discussions as long as they stay civil.
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  #22  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:30 AM
bob Online
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Personally, I hope that Win7 is near-perfection. It's pointless to say that the vast majority of Windows users are dumb about their OS. Heck, I drive a car, turn on a TV, run a furnace or refrigerator every day and haven't a clue as to the electronics involved. I expect that a flip of the switch will produce the desired result. If not, it's back to the repair shop, unless under warranty. That doesn't make me dumb (beer does ) . It just means that I'm involved in other things and I expect my appliances and vehicles to work.

If you have a secure Windows environment, you've taken away a lot of bucks from the 'mafias' of the world and their efforts will be diverted to other areas. Nothing wrong with that.

Besides, it's really about who can build the best OS. If it's Windows 7, then Mac & linux will be scrambling and improving at a record pace to keep up. I like that. Less "bling", more "working" .
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  #23  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:42 AM
JN4OldSchool Offline
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Quote:
It's pointless to say that the vast majority of Windows users are dumb about their OS. Heck, I drive a car, turn on a TV, run a furnace or refrigerator every day and haven't a clue as to the electronics involved. I expect that a flip of the switch will produce the desired result. If not, it's back to the repair shop, unless under warranty. That doesn't make me dumb (beer does ) . It just means that I'm involved in other things and I expect my appliances and vehicles to work.
Yes, of course. Often I am guilty of calling the types of people that use Troy's services "idiots." I really do not mean this in any derogatory way but of course that is exactly how it comes across. The thing is, you still have enough common sense to know how to drive the car (I hope) and you know the basics of the mechanics at least enough to tell the mechanic that you think it might be a CV joint, or not getting fuel...Likewise, if some smartazz on the internet tells you that leaving the fridge door open actually saves on energy I would hope you are smart enough to not buy into it. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to keep Windows Vista and later safe. XP? Yes, it was unsecure. I imagine the people Troy deals with are ones running XP that were told not to update. My father in law is one of these, I have talked about him before. We all have tried to show him how to secure his XP computer, he wont listen. Now we are trying to talk him into buying a new desktop with Win 7. I hope he does soon. Really, you dont need to know anything, just leave the default settings alone and it would probably be a good idea to install a freeware virus scanner. I swear by AVG, but there are at least two other decent ones. Scott is right, I do not surf porn or play games or really do anything outside forums or research. I also do not open spam or click questionable links. I do not do these things in linux either. I have no problems and I really do nothing out of the ordinary.

But I do admit I should watch what I say about non-computer literate people. It really has no bearing on intelligence, we all have things that we are clueless about.
  #24  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:45 AM
scottro Offline
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Unfortunately, the way the world is now, whether MS is better or not, the rest of the systems work at becoming compatible with it, not vice versa--that is, the samba folks worry about compatibility with AD, Mac ads mention how you can easily connect to your Windows network, and so on.

You don't see MS ads saying, now you can connect to your Mac/Unix network.

On the other hand, the relatively low profile means the skilled trojan writers spend their energy on getting into Windows machines.
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  #25  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:51 AM
Dies Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JN4OldSchool View Post
It really has no bearing on intelligence, we all have things that we are clueless about.
I don't know, some seem to be clueless about... well, everything really.
  #26  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:51 AM
Nokia Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post
...

You don't see MS ads saying, now you can connect to your Mac/Unix network.

...
...just yet. But soon...and it will be too late
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  #27  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:55 AM
JN4OldSchool Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dies View Post
I don't know, some seem to be clueless about... well, everything really.
I have known my share of these too.
  #28  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:56 AM
scottro Offline
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As a friend once wrote me,

"he couldn't catch a clue even if we dumped him
stark naked, doused in clue-juice in the middle of a clue-field in the
height of the clue-mating season"...
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"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
  #29  
Old 26th October 2009, 01:59 AM
JN4OldSchool Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottro View Post
As a friend once wrote me,

"he couldn't catch a clue even if we dumped him
stark naked, doused in clue-juice in the middle of a clue-field in the
height of the clue-mating season"...
Frustrate him for hours on end, just tell him to pee in the corner in a round room.
  #30  
Old 26th October 2009, 02:22 AM
scottro Offline
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Cruel but funny. In the cruel but funny department

http://www.makeuseof.com/tech-fun/ho...off-caps-lock/
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"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
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