What I HATE about F11

[cb20777]

Just installed F11 64 bit, here are the things I hate about it in the first 30 minutes (of course there are a lot of things I like too, but they work, these don't). No doubt more will crop up.

• Root gdm login - gets harder every release - SHAME ON YOU root nazis!
• Samba (outbound) browsing requires firewall mods
• Jamming SELinux enforcing mode with no query during install
• My "supported" NVIDIA card (Quadro NVS 295) is not detected - okay this may not be due to overt, mulish arrogance, but I did check the supported card list and it is really annoying.

The first 3 items are just freaking absurd and represent some sort of political agenda combined with astonishing arrogance.

Is a graphical root login dangerous -- of course! So are a lot of things, which have obvious enable/disable controls. Was this this discussed in the release note? - NO. Should it be inhibited by an ever-increasing set of obscure work-arounds (in this case an new file to edit in F11)? Of course not.

And why on earth show the stupid "Windows Network" if it doesn't work -- just gives an obscure error message "Failed to retrieve share list from server". If you install the client, the reasonable man would open the ports, OR provide a cluefull error message.

SELinux - enforcing???? So all the bugs are worked out? I think not.

[bob]

You joined nearly 3 years ago and this is your first post? My! Well, since you've probably been silently reading all this time, I'd guess you realize that we're users helping users in the Forum and can't change the making of the distro. However, if you'd like to make your voice heard by the guys and gals who do, I suggest you click on the picklist under Forum Project Jump and select Communicate (with the devs).

When contacting them with this, you might not want to mention the Release Note issue - check 4.1.1:

Root User disabled for GNOME Display Manager Root user is disabled by default for GNOME Display Manager (GDM) from Fedora 10 onwards. We strongly recommend that you avoid logging in as root user and instead use su -c or sudo for running commands requiring root access. If you wish to revert this setting however, refer to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Enabling_Root_User_For_GNOME_Display_Manager .


Good luck with your efforts. You are not alone in some of your criticisms.

[Iron_Mike]

Tell us what you do like about F11....

[cb20777]

Bob -- Thanks for the tip, I did NOT realize the developers didn't scan the forums. I have been using Fedora since FC2 (I think), and overall think its great, esp as a bleeding edge incubator for RHEL/CentOS. BUT there are some annoying trends occurring that finally pushed me over rant/no-rant threshold.

Dan -- I like all manner of stuff, but what caused me to just wipe my CentOS 5.3 root partition and replace it with F11 was a desire to get the relatively new GNOME gvfs stuff -- so I can manipulate remote windows shares with any tool, not just GnomeVFS aware tools.

On a higher level I am amazed and impressed by the creative outpouring from the various Open Source communities, although it is also a stark reminder of the fact that programmers hate, hate, hate documentation :-)

[cb20777]

Bob -- My bad on the release notes. But...it would have been nice not to have buried the entire discussion of a second file for F11 at the end of the last bullet ("Save and close") where one is typically going, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know I SHOULD read every single word very carefully, but golly all of the other important stuff was highlighted by being in a quote/literal block.

Sigh :-(

[scottro]

Adam and others are trying to whip release notes into more readable shape for everyone. Yes, the bullet points often get buried.

By more readable shape, meaning that at present, they're written pretty much by techies for techies--this isn't a bad thing (nor am I saying you're not a techie) but much of time, people will scan them, then go back when they have issues, including, I freely admit, myself.

Yes, Linux programmers do seem to hate documentation, but then you come across gems every so often--the authors of the fluxbox page come to mind, they're completely enthusiastic about having YOU use fluxbox.

Gnome is noted for its execrable docs, and of course, Fedora is highly Gnome centric.

In contrast, BSD docs, I think have peer pressure to write good docs and very often do. (Of course, sometimes, those two are simply by techies for techies.)

I hate to say it, but the best docs seem to be those of MS and Apple. MS got it right around Win2k--prior to that, their help didn't help too much.

[marko]

Fedora's big on security hence the no root gdm thing, if you want root what's so hard about getting a virtual console via Alt+Ctrl+F(2,3,4...) and logging in as root there?

[pwca]

Who freakin cares what you like or don't like about Fedora "x"!!!

Complaining about it here in the Fedora Forum isn't going to change a thing.

Why?

Because unlike ANY other corporation that spins off a forum for users to chat and for the corporation to listen in and gather intelligence about what they managed to get right (or wrong) and what they should (or shouldn't) be doing.... Fedora Development doesn't give a rat's a*#&$# what the users think or experience.

[Dan]

Hmmm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_...fluence_People

[robert-e]

Well, actually, I care; I did read his post with interest, as do I most others. And contrary to your opinion, there are devs who frequent these halls that do care; Ruhal, and Adam are a couple who come to mind. I am sure there are others.
Having said that; I do agree that most devs fit right into the "don't care" niche. I had hoped that when Redhat/Fedora brought Adam on board, that things might change for the better. Perhaps it has, but the "deal killer" with the partitioning/ext3/ext4 issue on the LiveCD harkens back to similar happenings with Fedora releases. Note that I am not laying fault at Adam's feet, as my readings seem to show that he has expended efforts over and above the call, in order to improve the Fedora developments. In particular, I appreaciate his efforts to make PulseAudio into some semblance of usability. Unfortunately, I recall reading a post saying something about that DSP functionality has been dropped from Fedora audio. Adam, Please say that it ain"t so!. That would kill most "on the air" ham radio usage of Fedora.
I am still scrounging around for spare hard drive, in order to try F11. Until that time, I continue to us F8, with its accelerated 3D vidio, and an "uninstalled" PulseAudio...ie using Alsa, complete with OSS support.

Finally, please remain gentlemanly. Many a good thread has been closed by posting without cooling down first.

Regards,
Bob

[scottro]

Hi Bob,


If you follow the testing list at all, (and probably the doc list) you'll see that things probably are changing, perhaps not as quickly as we'd all like.

The partitioning matter, for example, was discussed at great length, and the eventual hope is that such things will go, well explained, into release notes and that people will be able to pointed to said release notes and easily find things like that.

Obviously, things will always slip through. Those two are the ones who are most often on the fora and noticing what problems people are having, but several others also pay attention. Of course, if a developer is told, Hey, that piece of junk you're putting in is a waste of everyone's time, stupid, well, I can certainly understand their paying less attention to that.

My experience, from the testing list and various bugzilla reports, is that if one disagrees with the way something is being done, and states it politely, you'll get a polite explanation, and personally, I get the impression that these arguments against what has been decided are considered, even if in the end, the decision goes the other way.

And believe me, I'm a complainer.

So, that's just my opinion, but I don't think you should consider it a lost cause. I realize you're not blaming or accusing Rahul and Adam.

As for the dsp thingie, yeah, it seems to be gone but sound still seems to work. <shrug>. I haven't really followed it that closely--I'm not an audio freak and now that pulse is no more broken for me, at least, than sound has been since being tied to consolekit, I don't worry about it.

Knowing absolutely nothing about ham radio, I would guess that this might come under an RFE or the like--but again, I know nothing about ham radio.

[robert-e]

Scot, not to hijack this thread..but briefly...those ham radio programs use the dsp functions of the sound card to process incoming audio from the radio receiver, and convert it into text or video. A couple come to mind: gmsk, gpsk31, and SSTV (Slow Scan TV), as well as Morse code send/receive programs. A search in YumEx with "ham" or "amateur" radio will reveal others.

Now; back to regular programming. LOL

Regard,
Bob

[stevea]

Originally Posted by cb20777

Just installed F11 64 bit, here are the things I hate about it in the first 30 minutes (of course there are a lot of things I like too, but they work, these don't). No doubt more will crop up.

• Root gdm login - gets harder every release - SHAME ON YOU root nazis!
• Samba (outbound) browsing requires firewall mods
• Jamming SELinux enforcing mode with no query during install
• My "supported" NVIDIA card (Quadro NVS 295) is not detected - okay this may not be due to overt, mulish arrogance, but I did check the supported card list and it is really annoying.

[*]No gdm root login is IMO a stupid choice by the Gnome developers. So use the KDM instead.
yum -y install kdm
echo "DISPLAYMANAGER=KDE" > /etc/sysconfig/desktop
You can still use the gnome desktop, just the kdm greeter.
[*] Samba uses the protocol from that other company (which was subsequently made into an IETF standard). and requires that you poke holes in your firewall. Complain to Microsoft - they invented this POS protocol. Better yet why not install NFS & SSH on Windows so the real open standards are used on your network ? If Win doesn't support these open standards it's MS fault - complain to them. Seems ridiculous that your complaint is that the FOSS OS requires tweaks to run some (was) proprietary POS protocol, when the proprietary OS does a ***** job of supporting widely user standards.
[*] It's "just plain dumb"(tm) to install Linux w/o a functional Firewall and SELinux. Now *AFTER* installation it's entirely up to you to make the system config match your specific needs. There have been many papers published where 'honeypot' systems are attacked within minutes. No one needs to install an OS along with an attack/trojan at the same time.
[*] Can't help you w/ the NVIDEA issue, except to suggest you look thru dmesg.
===

I agree that some Gnome config choices seem dumb to me too. So use KDE or LXDE or one of the other 6 or 8 desktops. How many desktops can you choose from on Windows ?

SELinux - enforcing???? So all the bugs are worked out? I think not.

You think wrong, and this is [UNINFORMED] trash-talk [, LACKING IN A FUNDAMENTAL UNSERSTANDING OF THE FACTS] . SELinux has been "production quality" since F8 IMO. Yes to be an effective admin you need to learn to use the tools. Yes SEL has changed internally but there aren't bugs if the sort you imply,

[scottro]

Stevea, can't you please disagree with people, or correct them, without using the word ignorant?

I know you can, I've seen you disagree with people you like and respect.

Let's all try to stay nice. I'm sure you realize that you're more knowledgeable than many, if not most, of the folks on the forums, including myself--it's not really fair though, to call them ignorant if they don't know as much as you. Yes, I remember you've said in the past that ignorant isn't an insult, but trash talk probably is.

NOTE: I am writing this as a fellow forum member, not as a CM, so feel free to trash talk me. I've been married long enough for it to just roll off.

But please--you have so much knowledge, yet your somewhat errm, irascible, albeit lovable manner will keep people from absorbing it.

To other CM's etc. I repeat, I am writing this as a fellow member of the fora, to someone whom I greatly respect and from whom I have learned a great deal.

[cb20777]

Well it wasn't my intent to say I hated Fedora in general, nor F11 in particular. I was indicating some specific annoyances that I was distressed to run into, most of which I feel are a result of poor judgment/attitude rather than being "plain old bugs".

I think the attempt to produce an "it just works" distro is a laudable goal, regardless of whether the user is a technical or not, and newbie or greybeard. Nobody (well almost nobody) wants to remember scads of fiddly details when trying to use a tool. I feel the first three bullets fail that test, for various use cases. But obviously, others feel differently.

I actually started off trying to add a reply to the thread that was asking something like "What are your first impressions of F11", but managed to create a more inflammatory new thread proper instead. I probably should have waited 20 minutes before posting, I would at the least have clarified my overall feelings about the labor of love that is open source.

Lastly, I just posted a bug report to the rdesktop folks, since I noticed that rdesktop sound redirection stopped working between CentOS 5.3 and F11, not sure when it stopped in Fedora proper. The issue is that /dev/dsp is no longer supported. My workaround was to wrap rdesktop with "padsp", but that only helps usage of rdesktop proper, not tsclient. Interesting that a previous posted identified that issue. Interested parties can visit

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?fun...group_id=24366

Regards
-- Charlie