Fedora Linux Support Community & Resources Center

Go Back   FedoraForum.org > The Dungeon > Archived (Click Header To See Sub-Forums) > Alpha, Beta & Snapshots Discussions (Fedora 11 Only)
FedoraForum Search

Forgot Password? Join Us!

Alpha, Beta & Snapshots Discussions (Fedora 11 Only) Post Development Version comments and questions that don't belong in Bugzilla here. These posts will be moved or deleted once the Final version is released

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 3rd June 2009, 01:12 AM
AdamW Offline
Fedora QA Community Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,176
sideways: at a quick glance, I can't see that the removal of OSS support by default has been documented in the release notes. I may just be missing it, though. If you can't find it, it can certainly be added - there's some information on how to get stuff added at the bottom of the front page, http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f11/en-US/ .
__________________
Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
  #32  
Old 3rd June 2009, 10:50 AM
sideways Offline
Retired User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, UK
Posts: 4,999
It probably should be added somewhere, once the technically correct statement is agreed, I think I'm wrongly assuming only OSS apps use /dev/dsp, since madplay doesn't seem to be OSS based.

Also, rather than using padsp you can just type

Code:
su -c 'modprobe snd-pcm-oss'
then all apps using dsp will work without modification, so I'm assuming that fixes all OSS apps in F11 (eg put it in /etc/rc.local)

I'd rather not edit the wiki notes until best advice is agreed on, Lennart mentions 'minor hackery' in the article, if you could ask him what he meant that would help.

PS I made a baby monitor using PA, so it's not all bad
  #33  
Old 3rd June 2009, 10:59 AM
sideways Offline
Retired User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, UK
Posts: 4,999
ah, ok found this in /etc/modprobe.d/dist-oss.conf

Quote:
# OSS Sound Support
# This has been disabled in F11 onwards because it can interfere with the
# PulseAudio sound service (a legacy OSS application can prevent PulseAudio
# applications from playing sound by preventing PulseAudio from (re-)opening
# the sound device). To re-enable support, uncomment the following line:
#
# install snd-pcm /sbin/modprobe --ignore-install snd-pcm && /sbin/modprobe snd-pcm-oss && /sbin/modprobe snd-seq-device && /sbin/modprobe snd-seq-oss
Probably should be made public knowledge rather than hidden away.
  #34  
Old 3rd June 2009, 07:49 PM
TarrasQ Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
Nothing related should have changed in the last few days...when did you notice the change exactly? Can you see from your logs what packages were installed around that time?
No I no longer have logs from when it happened, nor do I know the exact date. That "two weeks ago" is a valid guess, about then I first noticed it.
  #35  
Old 3rd June 2009, 10:22 PM
AdamW Offline
Fedora QA Community Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,176
Anything that uses /dev/dsp is using the OSS system. The ALSA, esd, PA, whatever APIs just don't use that device node at all, it only exists in the OSS scheme of things.

and yeah, it should be in the release notes, I'll see if I can do anything about getting it added.
__________________
Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
  #36  
Old 4th June 2009, 12:10 AM
AdamW Offline
Fedora QA Community Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,176
I added it to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docum...ultimedia_Beat , now talking to the docs team about getting it added to the final notes.
__________________
Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
  #37  
Old 4th June 2009, 12:12 AM
scottro Offline
Retired Community Manager -- Banned from Texas by popular demand.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,142
Don't know if anyone took the time to thank you for your efforts on behalf of the community--the people who use the distribution.

If not, hopefully you do realize that the majority of us really do appreciate it.
Thank you.
__________________
--
http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu

Do NOT PM forum members with requests for technical support. Ask your questions on the forum.


"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
  #38  
Old 4th June 2009, 12:41 AM
sonoran Offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sonoran Desert
Posts: 2,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
sonoran: "If PulseAudio's "glitch-free" is so great, why does it consume 5-6 times MORE cpu than OSSv4 when I play music? That's why I called it Public Relations BS."

Usually what causes CPU consumption like this is resampling. Many modern audio adapters can only output at a single sampling rate (usually 48KHz), or a limited range. When the sound you're playing is at a different rate (say it's a 44.1KHz CD rip), something in the output chain has to resample to a rate the card can cope with.

PA and ALSA differ in the resampling algorithm they choose by default. ALSA chooses a less accurate, but less computationally intensive one. PA chooses a more accurate but more intensive one. So PA gives better results (though this isn't always noticeable, depending on your sound card, speakers, and the actual sound that's being played) at the cost of more CPU usage.

You can configure this in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf . Uncomment the line:

; resample-method = speex-float-3
and change it to a different method, e.g.:

resample-method = trivial

'man pulse-daemon.conf' gives you all the options for this setting (and others in the same file).

edit: should've noted - I haven't used OSS4 myself, but I guess it like ALSA defaults to a fast-but-potentially-inaccurate resampling method.

Hi AdamW-
I understand sample rate conversion (in theory, anyway). Here are the possible settings from osscore.conf:

# The src_quality setting defines the precision of the software based sample
# rate conversion algorithm used by OSS. This setting doesn't affect possible
# hardware level conversions done by the devices themselves. Using higher
# quality setting gives better quality while lower settings consume less
# CPU time.
#
# Possible values are:
# 0 - D lowest quality (normally equals to 1=low quality)
# 1 - L low quality (spline interpolation)
# 2 - M medium quality (lagrange interpolation)
# 3 - H high quality (DEFAULT)
# 4 - HX high quality (high quality with extra precision)
# 5 - P production quality
# 6 - PX production quality (prod quality with extra precision)
#
src_quality=3

I doubt whether Pulse Audio's default conversion setting is of higher quality than OSSv4's default. (Does Pulse Audio offer this range of choices?)

I increased the sample rate conversion accuracy from 3 to 5. This had the effect of increasing CPU load from 4-6% at setting 3 to 9-11% at setting 5. I couldn't hear any difference in sound quality, but cpu is still less than half Pulse Audio's default usage.

Aside from better sound quality and lower cpu load (on my system ), there are other reasons I prefer OSSv4 to Pulse Audio. The ossxmix gui exposes every control and feature of my sound card for me to play with - that's 17 pairs of double-sliders, 5 single-sliders, 38 checkbox controls, 6 drop-down menus, and 6 dual-channel vu meters.

I would prefer to have all those options available, rather than having Lennart make those decisions for me. And while I'm on the subject of freedom of choice for the end user, shouldn't OSSv4 be available in the Fedora repositories, instead of only from

www.opensound.com

Just a thought.
  #39  
Old 4th June 2009, 09:10 PM
AdamW Offline
Fedora QA Community Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,176
OSSv4 is not entirely free software, which is one major reason it's not in Fedora. The other is that Fedora has a policy of not allowing external kernel module packages: kernel modules have to go into the kernel package, and OSS is not designed to be integrated into a kernel package. Fedora's kernel team do not want to carry large patches in perpetuity; the only things that get patched into Fedora's kernel are things that are planned to be integrated into the upstream kernel in future.

Long story short: OSSv4 will only go into Fedora when it is fully open source, and scheduled for integration into the official kernel.

You can access the raw mixer controls for your card in Fedora 11, and we always plan for this to be possible. The only change is that the *default graphical mixer application* will not expose these any more, because we figure that the majority of use cases do not require them and will only be confused by them. The default should always favour the majority case. If you prefer full access, all you need to do is pick a different mixer application - say, alsamixer.

PA's range of resampling algorithms, as I mentioned, is listed in the man page. It says:

"resample-method= The resampling algorithm to use. Use one of src-sinc-best-quality, src-sinc-medium-quality, src-sinc-fastest, src-zero-order-hold, src-linear, trivial, speex-float-N, speex-fixed-N, ffmpeg. See the documentation of libsamplerate for an explanation for the different src- methods."

As that implies, the conversion is done by libsamplerate. libsamplerate's home page constitutes its documentation - http://www.mega-nerd.com/libsamplerate/ - the docs in the package are just a static copy of that. Unfortunately it doesn't explain much about the different methods it implements there. I don't know how they map to the OSS methods.
__________________
Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
  #40  
Old 4th June 2009, 10:33 PM
scottro Offline
Retired Community Manager -- Banned from Texas by popular demand.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,142
Sigh, today, on a fresh F11 install, once again, pulse audio only works for root.

My usual fixes of editing /etc/security/console.perms.d no longer seems to work.

Long story short, to paraphrase Adam. Until November 2007 sound in Fedora used to work out of the box. They broke it by tying it to console kit.

Now, sound in Linux becomes an adventure, at least in most of the distros that are heavily tied into Desktop Environments, and pulseaudio has made it more of one.
__________________
--
http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu

Do NOT PM forum members with requests for technical support. Ask your questions on the forum.


"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
  #41  
Old 4th June 2009, 10:42 PM
scottro Offline
Retired Community Manager -- Banned from Texas by popular demand.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,142
Solved by further loosening permissions in /etc/security/console.perms.d

From what I see, it does usually work out of the box for the Gnome users, but I don't think it can be considered glitch free till it works as well as sound used to work in Fedora, with as much ease of getting it working, prior to November 2007.
__________________
--
http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu

Do NOT PM forum members with requests for technical support. Ask your questions on the forum.


"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
  #42  
Old 5th June 2009, 06:39 PM
AdamW Offline
Fedora QA Community Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,176
Can you explain in a bit more detail exactly how it 'doesn't work', and perhaps file a bug report on the appropriate component (going by what it was you had to do to fix it)?
__________________
Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
  #43  
Old 5th June 2009, 10:43 PM
scottro Offline
Retired Community Manager -- Banned from Texas by popular demand.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,142
Actually, that would be difficult in this case, because I was doing it as I was doing other things. I wound up loosening permissions in /etc/security/console.perms.d and removing the irrelevant /dev/dsp from that file.

As for a bug report, it isn't considered a bug, went through this two years ago.

Sound not working properly when one leaves the defaults seems to be getting more common--I've seen the same thing in Ubuntu and Mint when playing with them.

The old bug began when sound was tied to console kit. The way it used to work, you'd install a system, run system-config-soundcard (which was usually unnecessary actually, sound used to be automagically working.) Then, all users could play sounds in any desktop or console. Around November 2007, this stopped. We non-Gnome users found that sometimes, running consolekit as a service would fix it, otherwise, one could edit /etc/security/console.perms.d

(Or play music as root.)

At that time a bug was filed--the developer felt that it was proper behavior and changed things so that it was extremely difficult to not have consolekit.

After that came pulseaudio, whenever that was. That simply further complicated things, but seems to more or less work now, for my simple needs. However, as soon as I install fluxbox or openbox, I have to go back and edit /etc/security/console blah blah. At this point, I'm not willing to spend the proper time with a bug report, because it seems to be one of those things that works for most people with the default, and I can work around my issues.

Whether the permissions issue had to do with pulse or another sound device, I don't know, and at this point, now that I have it working again, especially as it's only occurred on one machine out of a few F11 installs, I'm don't see the merit of spending the time.

As my wish is for it to go back to pre Nov. 2007 days, and that ain't gonna happen, I just content myself with grumbling from time to time, as I did last night--it was a post that really shouldn't have been posted, I was just in a rather fed up mood with sound and bloat. Hrrm, good name for a rock band.
__________________
--
http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu

Do NOT PM forum members with requests for technical support. Ask your questions on the forum.


"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
  #44  
Old 5th June 2009, 11:00 PM
AdamW Offline
Fedora QA Community Monkey
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 4,176
it's hard to be sure as I still can't get a really good feel for the issue from your description, but it sounds perhaps like something that ought to be 'fixed' in fluxbox or openbox rather than PA. it sounds like an access mechanism to the sound devices has been designed using consolekit, and that works fine with KDE and GNOME, which have consolekit implementations, but openbox / fluxbox don't - which is why it doesn't work there. but really, I'm guessing.
__________________
Adam Williamson | awilliam AT redhat DOT com
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
  #45  
Old 6th June 2009, 12:57 AM
scottro Offline
Retired Community Manager -- Banned from Texas by popular demand.
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,142
I was in a highly aggravated mood when I wrote it. If I can duplicate it again, I'll pay more attention.

As I said, I fiddled, doing this that and the other, removing and reinstalling various alsa and pulse things, a few reboots, playing with that file....

Here is something that I am sure of, though I haven't tested it in F11 (in F11, I just made my edits before even installing fluxbox).

In F10, at least, sound worked in console (with no edits to the console.perms.d. However, once I installed fluxbox, sound would still work in console, but not in fluxbox.

As I hope you realize, I do know how to provide reasonable information if I have hope of something being fixed--in this case, it was more of a venting post. What the heck, we're all entitled once in awhile.

It seems though, that in another test install on a very low quality laptop, I can't duplicate it, my usual console.perms.d edits fix it.

So... I'll shut up now.

__________________
--
http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu

Do NOT PM forum members with requests for technical support. Ask your questions on the forum.


"I don't know why there is the constant push to break any semblance of compatibility" --anon
 

Tags
broken, oss, pulse, support

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
F10 Bluetooth Audio + Pulse == pulse crashes. fwelland Hardware & Laptops 2 7th February 2009 01:07 PM
NTFS support broken? LesNagy Using Fedora 4 28th December 2006 06:56 PM
MMS streaming support is broken in FC6's Totem-GStreamer Chatbox Using Fedora 7 28th November 2006 01:41 PM
Grip 3.2 proxy support broken? digdoug Using Fedora 0 2nd May 2006 10:26 PM


Current GMT-time: 20:17 (Monday, 22-09-2014)

TopSubscribe to XML RSS for all Threads in all ForumsFedoraForumDotOrg Archive
logo

All trademarks, and forum posts in this site are property of their respective owner(s).
FedoraForum.org is privately owned and is not directly sponsored by the Fedora Project or Red Hat, Inc.

Privacy Policy | Term of Use | Posting Guidelines | Archive | Contact Us | Founding Members

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

FedoraForum is Powered by RedHat