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Alpha, Beta & Snapshots Discussions (Fedora 11 Only) Post Development Version comments and questions that don't belong in Bugzilla here. These posts will be moved or deleted once the Final version is released

 
 
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  #16  
Old 1st June 2009, 07:44 AM
sonoran Offline
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My comments about Lennart were too harsh - I have actually looked at his source code and compared it to OSSv4 and while it is way over my head I can see that he is headed towards a great final product - but for me Pulse Audio isn't there yet. As a user I only care about getting the best sound - now.

OSSv4 replaces the Alsa and Pulse Audio kernel modules with its own - every time I install a new kernel in either Arch or Fedora, OSS rebuilds and relinks its kernel modules - there is a delay of a minute or two when first booting the new kernel while it does this. Very smooth, and no breakages so far.

If PulseAudio's "glitch-free" is so great, why does it consume 5-6 times MORE cpu than OSSv4 when I play music? That's why I called it Public Relations BS.
  #17  
Old 1st June 2009, 08:09 AM
RahulSundaram Offline
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Hi,

Note that I don't see that behaviour. A lot of this is very hardware specific and sometimes software specific (vlc for example). It would be more useful to file a bug report than rant here.
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  #18  
Old 1st June 2009, 09:33 AM
sonoran Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RahulSundaram View Post
A lot of this is very hardware specific and sometimes software specific (vlc for example).
True - I try to disclaim with "on my system" - and I have read that the Audacious/PulseAudio marriage is not a happy one.

Quote:
It would be more useful to file a bug report than rant here.
Well, I have to rant somewhere!

But of course you are right. I am trying not to become another anti-PulseAudio crusader, there are enough of those already. And people keep posting PA problems...
  #19  
Old 1st June 2009, 05:38 PM
TarrasQ Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helloworld1 View Post
#yum install libpulsedsp.so
Thanks! That one worked!
I did already have pulseaudio-utils-i586 installed, but now the update put the file back there. Interesting....

I still have to use padsp due to missing /dev/dsp, but that's not a problem for me. For someone who doesn't have much other choise than try things out of box, it will be a major drawback. I never had to use padsp before.
  #20  
Old 1st June 2009, 10:48 PM
scottro Offline
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@rahul. Yeah, a bug report was filed by stefan and closed as won't fix. We went through this on another thread and you very kindly said you'd look into it at some point. (That is NOT a hint, it's very low priority).
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  #21  
Old 1st June 2009, 11:07 PM
RahulSundaram Offline
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Hi,

I forget. If you can still dig up the bugzilla link, pass it on to AdamW. I am juggling way too much info already.
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  #22  
Old 2nd June 2009, 02:34 AM
scottro Offline
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Heh, no problem, the original filer and myself were discussing it on an opera thread.

I repeat, that wasn't an effort to give you a hint. You do enough for we users already, and believe me, we are grateful.
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  #23  
Old 2nd June 2009, 06:41 PM
AdamW Offline
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sonoran: "If PulseAudio's "glitch-free" is so great, why does it consume 5-6 times MORE cpu than OSSv4 when I play music? That's why I called it Public Relations BS."

Usually what causes CPU consumption like this is resampling. Many modern audio adapters can only output at a single sampling rate (usually 48KHz), or a limited range. When the sound you're playing is at a different rate (say it's a 44.1KHz CD rip), something in the output chain has to resample to a rate the card can cope with.

PA and ALSA differ in the resampling algorithm they choose by default. ALSA chooses a less accurate, but less computationally intensive one. PA chooses a more accurate but more intensive one. So PA gives better results (though this isn't always noticeable, depending on your sound card, speakers, and the actual sound that's being played) at the cost of more CPU usage.

You can configure this in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf . Uncomment the line:

; resample-method = speex-float-3

and change it to a different method, e.g.:

resample-method = trivial

'man pulse-daemon.conf' gives you all the options for this setting (and others in the same file).

edit: should've noted - I haven't used OSS4 myself, but I guess it like ALSA defaults to a fast-but-potentially-inaccurate resampling method.
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  #24  
Old 2nd June 2009, 08:06 PM
sideways Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
sonoran: "If PulseAudio's "glitch-free" is so great, why does it consume 5-6 times MORE cpu than OSSv4 when I play music? That's why I called it Public Relations BS."

Usually what causes CPU consumption like this is resampling. Many modern audio adapters can only output at a single sampling rate (usually 48KHz), or a limited range. When the sound you're playing is at a different rate (say it's a 44.1KHz CD rip), something in the output chain has to resample to a rate the card can cope with.

PA and ALSA differ in the resampling algorithm they choose by default. ALSA chooses a less accurate, but less computationally intensive one. PA chooses a more accurate but more intensive one. So PA gives better results (though this isn't always noticeable, depending on your sound card, speakers, and the actual sound that's being played) at the cost of more CPU usage.

You can configure this in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf . Uncomment the line:

; resample-method = speex-float-3

and change it to a different method, e.g.:

resample-method = trivial

'man pulse-daemon.conf' gives you all the options for this setting (and others in the same file).

edit: should've noted - I haven't used OSS4 myself, but I guess it like ALSA defaults to a fast-but-potentially-inaccurate resampling method.
That's the problem with pulse-audio, Poettering is so obsessed with perfecting low-level technical (vista/mac inspired) algorithms that the overall end-results (what the listener hears) are practically a TODO for fedora 13 or 14 maybe. Technical accuracy are to be applauded but do it in the lab and release it when it's solid, don't subject the entire user base of a distro, over several releases, to a piss-poor implementation, I don't care how technically innovative it is under the covers.

You see, us end-users aren't particularly impressed with all that technical wizardry when every other audio app cracks and pops its way to the speakers. or, in my case, when I have low latency with pure alsa and "audio production" apps like fluidsynth, it's not hugely impressive that PA introduces ~100ms latencies, leaving no alternative but jack (why? I didn't need it before, and yes I submitted a bug)
  #25  
Old 2nd June 2009, 08:20 PM
AdamW Offline
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That's not really the case. When this issue was raised with relation to Mandriva, we opened a tracking bug and got quite a lot of people to do testing with various resampling methods, and found that some people notice substantially degraded sound quality with the faster resampling methods. So we decided to stick with the higher quality default, and Colin (MDV's PA maintainer) passed the results along to Lennart to confirm that the high quality default was a good choice.

It's not a question of 'perfecting low-level technical algorithms', just a case of _picking_ one. None of the resampling code was developed for PA, it's all pre-existing stuff. And resampling in the output chain is nothing new, it's been needed forever, ALSA does it, OSS does it, Windows does it, everything has to do it.
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  #26  
Old 2nd June 2009, 08:37 PM
sideways Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
That's not really the case. When this issue was raised with relation to Mandriva, we opened a tracking bug and got quite a lot of people to do testing with various resampling methods, and found that some people notice substantially degraded sound quality with the faster resampling methods. So we decided to stick with the higher quality default, and Colin (MDV's PA maintainer) passed the results along to Lennart to confirm that the high quality default was a good choice.

It's not a question of 'perfecting low-level technical algorithms', just a case of _picking_ one. None of the resampling code was developed for PA, it's all pre-existing stuff. And resampling in the output chain is nothing new, it's been needed forever, ALSA does it, OSS does it, Windows does it, everything has to do it.
Come on, If Poettering wasn't based in Germany you'd probably all see him hunched over a dozens of terminals running powertop, grinning crazily as another decimal point is shaved off.

I can only assume he uses german trash metal to do the audio quality testing, imagine if they'd done that for mp3 psycho-acoustics rather than use suzanne vega.
  #27  
Old 2nd June 2009, 08:44 PM
AdamW Offline
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if you get cracks and pops that's just a bug, it's not how PA is supposed to work. PA shouldn't degrade audio quality at all compared to ALSA. I assume you've reported your bug?
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  #28  
Old 2nd June 2009, 09:36 PM
sideways Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
if you get cracks and pops that's just a bug, it's not how PA is supposed to work. PA shouldn't degrade audio quality at all compared to ALSA. I assume you've reported your bug?
Mostly occured in F10, probably due to the glitch-free teething issues. In nearly every case removing alsa-plugins-pulseaudio resolved the issue. It still occurs on apps like the zsnes emulator and wine running SeriousSam which I'm sure I'll be wasting my time filing a bug on, I just do a workaround to bypass PA for those. VLC used to have problems but seems ok now in F11.

I use the (low resource) command line madplay to play mp3s and usually associate .mp3 with madplay in nautilus (so double-click plays without opening huge app). In F11 that no longer works, I now have to do 'padsp madplay song.mp3', which makes the nautilus setup a pain. I don't think I'm allowed to complain about that on bugzilla am I. (edit: ok, not a big deal, it displays as just padsp but does actually execute 'padsp madplay', need to turn audio previews off)

Where in the release notes for F11 does it say to use padsp for OSS apps?

Last edited by sideways; 2nd June 2009 at 10:06 PM. Reason: "padsp madplay" does work in nautilus
  #29  
Old 2nd June 2009, 11:15 PM
TarrasQ Offline
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This discussion has gone pretty far away from my original problem, which was having no audio at all for OSS-using applications. Anyway, that broke down 2-3 weeks ago and now I got it (hacked) working. BUT... I used to have good sound quality on my OSS apps, but now it's crap.

What in a donkeys behind are they changing this close to release?
  #30  
Old 3rd June 2009, 01:10 AM
AdamW Offline
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Nothing related should have changed in the last few days...when did you notice the change exactly? Can you see from your logs what packages were installed around that time?
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