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  #1  
Old 12th November 2008, 06:37 PM
SlowJet Offline
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Fix the Math - R aint
The math programs are in the dark ages.
Promises of GUI's faded into the 20th Century.
A geek's idea of a GUI became an editor.
EMACS , XEMACS beta require a P.H.D. to configure.
R update brings in DEVEL pakages which in turn bring in a truck load of DEVL packages.

I don't want of need DEVL, I just want to use the program.

The basic statistical function in M$ Excel has been full of erros for years.
It is now being dropped by M$ in newest versions.
MAC 08 - office has dropped the math.

Hundreds of College freshmen and returning older students and returning Adults
are stopped dead from completing course work.
Teachers are bewildered as to what to use for math and statistics.
Thousands of man hours have been obsoleted in less time than it takes for a dollar coin to drop on the floor.

The $ chasers have changed directions and left the young and old in the class room sucking their thumbs.

The future needs easy, quick, accurate and free math programs NOW.

Fix the math and make it work. Or we are all going to die.

SJ
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  #2  
Old 12th November 2008, 06:56 PM
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kinda dramatic don't you think
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  #3  
Old 12th November 2008, 06:59 PM
SlowJet Offline
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Be specific and I'll tell you.

SJ
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  #4  
Old 12th November 2008, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowJet View Post
Be specific and I'll tell you.
I was about to ask the same of you.
What exactly are you complaining about? R doesn't work? It's been working fine for me. I haven't seen any errors (programmatic or mathematical), and I use it extensively.

If you don't want to deal with all the dependencies in the Fedora packages for R, then just grab the source and compile it. That's what I always do. It's dead simple: ./configure; make; make install

Now, if you want a GUI for it, then install the Rcmdr package for it. From within R do this:
Code:
install.packages("Rcmdr", dependencies=TRUE)
The Rcmdr GUI uses Tcl/Tk, so you'd need that installed first.
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Old 12th November 2008, 08:54 PM
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Shouldn't you be addressing the devs on this? What are we going to do about it? We're users helping users, not programmers or developers.
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Old 12th November 2008, 09:03 PM
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I think he's talking about the general state of mathematical packages, no matter what the platform.

I'm a big fan of SciPy.
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Old 12th November 2008, 09:10 PM
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Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Senior moment. What....HEY, GET OFF THE GRASS, YA DANGED KIDS!
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  #8  
Old 12th November 2008, 09:51 PM
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You just need to know how to use the tools supplied, python has powerful stats functions for example. Even the bash command line with basic tools such as bc is more powerful than excel: eg pi and sqrt(2) to 1000 decimal places:

Code:
bc -l <<< "scale=1000; 4*a(1)"
Code:
bc -l <<< "scale=1000; e(l(2)/2)"
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  #9  
Old 12th November 2008, 10:27 PM
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Regarding what I think is your point, I think gnumeric pretty much covers what is required at college level statistics.
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  #10  
Old 12th November 2008, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sideways View Post
Regarding what I think is your point, I think gnumeric pretty much covers what is required at college level statistics.
That is not true.
There are specific statistical classes depending on the students path.
And the M$ office data analysis add-on is a major tool.

SJ
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Last edited by SlowJet; 13th November 2008 at 12:28 AM.
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  #11  
Old 12th November 2008, 11:38 PM
SlowJet Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sideways View Post
You just need to know how to use the tools supplied, python has powerful stats functions for example. Even the bash command line with basic tools such as bc is more powerful than excel: eg pi and sqrt(2) to 1000 decimal places:

Code:
bc -l <<< "scale=1000; 4*a(1)"
Code:
bc -l <<< "scale=1000; e(l(2)/2)"
Most of the students are not in a math or computer sci program.
They have troubles just using the computer let alone the time to read tens of pages of documentation.

SJ
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  #12  
Old 12th November 2008, 11:42 PM
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I would address my complaint the other way round then.

There are great mathematical tools available, many of them free, but students are too lazy/dumb to use them.

Rather than complaining about volunteers not willing to write 'stats for dummies' software.
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  #13  
Old 12th November 2008, 11:46 PM
SlowJet Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RupertPupkin View Post
I was about to ask the same of you.
What exactly are you complaining about? R doesn't work? It's been working fine for me. I haven't seen any errors (programmatic or mathematical), and I use it extensively.

If you don't want to deal with all the dependencies in the Fedora packages for R, then just grab the source and compile it. That's what I always do. It's dead simple: ./configure; make; make install

Now, if you want a GUI for it, then install the Rcmdr package for it. From within R do this:
Code:
install.packages("Rcmdr", dependencies=TRUE)
The Rcmdr GUI uses Tcl/Tk, so you'd need that installed first.
I would hope R uses math correctly.
And the compiling from src is a dead end issue for the average user. So stop using it as an excuse for bad packaging and lack of usability.
Rcmr GUI? Yet one of several mentioned that are vapour ware, and buired in a src package.


I have R installed but the Fedora updates and test updates are screwed up.
The missing dep is actually on the repos.
The last version of R (10.26.90 fc9) changed so all devl are included. Why?
If you install or update R for Windows or the MAC, do you get DEVL packages?
What compiler would they use?
No and None.

SJ
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  #14  
Old 12th November 2008, 11:50 PM
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With R installed in F9
yum update --enablerepo=updates-testing-newkey


[darwinhwebb@Ruthie-07 ~]$ su -
Password:
[root@Ruthie-07 ~]# yum clean all --enablerepo=updates-testing-newkeyLoaded plugins: refresh-packagekit
Cleaning up Everything
[root@Ruthie-07 ~]# yum update --enablerepo=updates-testing-newkey --exclude=setroub*
Loaded plugins: refresh-packagekit
updates-newkey | 2.3 kB 00:00
primary.sqlite.bz2 | 3.2 MB 00:03
updates-testing-newkey | 2.3 kB 00:00
primary.sqlite.bz2 | 354 kB 00:01
fedora | 2.4 kB 00:00
primary.sqlite.bz2 | 6.1 MB 00:16
Excluding Packages in global exclude list
Finished
Setting up Update Process
Resolving Dependencies
--> Running transaction check
---> Package R.i386 0:2.8.0-2.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: libRmath-devel = 2.8.0-2.fc9 for package: R
--> Processing Dependency: R-devel = 2.8.0-2.fc9 for package: R
---> Package libRmath.i386 0:2.8.0-2.fc9 set to be updated
--> Running transaction check
---> Package R-devel.i386 0:2.8.0-2.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: R-core = 2.8.0-2.fc9 for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: ncurses-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libXt-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: gcc-c++ for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libpng-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libjpeg-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libX11-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: cairo-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: readline-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libtiff-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: bzip2-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libXmu-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: gcc-gfortran for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: tk-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libSM-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libICE-devel for package: R-devel
--> Processing Dependency: tcl-devel for package: R-devel
---> Package libRmath-devel.i386 0:2.8.0-2.fc9 set to be updated
--> Running transaction check
---> Package tcl-devel.i386 1:8.5.2-2.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libICE-devel.i386 0:1.0.4-3.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: xorg-x11-proto-devel for package: libICE-devel
---> Package libSM-devel.i386 0:1.1.0-1.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package gcc-gfortran.i386 0:4.3.0-8 set to be updated
---> Package libpng-devel.i386 2:1.2.33-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: zlib-devel for package: libpng-devel
---> Package R-core.i386 0:2.8.0-2.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: perl(File:opy::Recursive) for package: R-core
---> Package tk-devel.i386 1:8.5.2-1.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package ncurses-devel.i386 0:5.6-18.20080628.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package readline-devel.i386 0:5.2-13.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package cairo-devel.i386 0:1.6.4-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: fontconfig-devel >= 2.0 for package: cairo-devel
--> Processing Dependency: freetype-devel >= 2.1.3-3 for package: cairo-devel
--> Processing Dependency: pixman-devel >= 0.10.0 for package: cairo-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libXrender-devel for package: cairo-devel
---> Package gcc-c++.i386 0:4.3.0-8 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: libstdc++-devel = 4.3.0-8 for package: gcc-c++
---> Package libtiff-devel.i386 0:3.8.2-11.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libX11-devel.i386 0:1.1.4-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: libxcb-devel for package: libX11-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libXau-devel for package: libX11-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libXdmcp-devel for package: libX11-devel
---> Package bzip2-devel.i386 0:1.0.5-2.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libXt-devel.i386 0:1.0.4-5.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libXmu-devel.i386 0:1.0.4-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: xorg-x11-util-macros for package: libXmu-devel
--> Processing Dependency: libXext-devel for package: libXmu-devel
---> Package libjpeg-devel.i386 0:6b-41.fc9 set to be updated
--> Running transaction check
---> Package perl-File-Copy-Recursive.noarch 0:0.37-1.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libxcb-devel.i386 0:1.1-5.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package zlib-devel.i386 0:1.2.3-18.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libXrender-devel.i386 0:0.9.4-3.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libXau-devel.i386 0:1.0.3-5.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libXext-devel.i386 0:1.0.4-1.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libstdc++-devel.i386 0:4.3.0-8 set to be updated
filelists.sqlite.bz2 | 6.2 MB 00:07
filelists.sqlite.bz2 | 1.5 MB 00:03
filelists.sqlite.bz2 | 10 MB 00:29
---> Package xorg-x11-proto-devel.noarch 0:7.3-12.1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: mesa-libGL-devel for package: xorg-x11-proto-devel
---> Package fontconfig-devel.i386 0:2.5.0-2.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package freetype-devel.i386 0:2.3.5-6.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package libXdmcp-devel.i386 0:1.0.2-5.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package xorg-x11-util-macros.i386 0:1.1.6-1.fc9 set to be updated
---> Package pixman-devel.i386 0:0.10.0-1.fc9 set to be updated
--> Running transaction check
---> Package mesa-libGL-devel.i386 0:7.1-0.37.fc9 set to be updated
--> Processing Dependency: mesa-libGL = 7.1-0.37.fc9 for package: mesa-libGL-devel
--> Finished Dependency Resolution
mesa-libGL-devel-7.1-0.37.fc9.i386 from updates-newkey has depsolving problems
--> Missing Dependency: mesa-libGL = 7.1-0.37.fc9 is needed by package mesa-libGL-devel-7.1-0.37.fc9.i386 (updates-newkey)
Error: Missing Dependency: mesa-libGL = 7.1-0.37.fc9 is needed by package mesa-libGL-devel-7.1-0.37.fc9.i386 (updates-newkey)
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  #15  
Old 12th November 2008, 11:54 PM
SlowJet Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sideways View Post
I would address my complaint the other way round then.

There are great mathematical tools available, many of them free, but students are too lazy/dumb to use them.

Rather than complaining about volunteers not willing to write 'stats for dummies' software.
It does not matter how great they are if they can not be used by end users of all kinds.
The results of the using will determine the grade of a student, not your option.

SJ
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