ok, that was a pain in the butt
I did what was suggested to roll gdm back to the version from F8
then I disabled selinux
still didn't work
then I turned off iptables and ip6tables, didn't want ip6 anyway
that got things working
I figured this out by noticing I couldn't even hit apache on this machine
it seems the default setting for iptables or some firewall stuff or something is very restrictive
I don't want all this stuff turned off, I'll now have to go figure out how to modify these security gadgets so I can do what I want to do without completely disabling them
curious, I could ssh into the machine before I did all this
thanks for the pointers
Dave