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  #16  
Old 29th July 2007, 02:50 PM
Dan Offline
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Point taken.

Frustration I can sympathize with. Been there ... done that. Frustration I will help with when and where I can. And if a poster has indicated a desire to, or says he is leaving either fedora or the forum, I will wish them well.

And if they just need to be sentenced to the Brown 'buntu, I'll suggest it.

However, poor behavior should not be indulged, nor ignored. Obvious trolling I will not condone. However, arguing the fine points of a trolling post is not useful. The minutia of the argument isn't the issue. The bad behavior is, and dealing with it simply requires a little honesty and an open heart. Once that's out of the way, fixing computer problems can commence.

However, if they still refuse good sense ... Then I try to get clear of the splatter zone, and watch in awe as an Admin, or a CM eviscerates and disatches them with disturbing efficiency! (Shudder!) <....>


Dan
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  #17  
Old 29th July 2007, 02:55 PM
w5set Offline
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http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showth...457#post837457

And in this ring we have ...
Ubuntu FaNBoY # 103,207,450
Weighing in at an incredible 4 questions and 4 answered problems with a history of 16 total fights
With attendants of closed source and proprietary assisting him.

vs

FeDorA Fanboys (# 1,345 thru 2,356,000)
Weighing in at an truly incredible record that's in-numeralable in both scope and quantity.
Attendants are rather limited in scope but they are working on improving their service.

The fight looks close in some camps, but better then even odds goes to the "U" camp in the "new" bookie camps.

To the average surfer coming here before installing Fedora (seems damn few folks actually read before attempting this, but I will ASSUME some still do ??) that discourse could have looked rather elitist or fanboyish for either side.

Elitist for Ubuntu=the devels/forum have made it easy for me to get running what I want.
Elitist for Fedora=the devels have provided tools to tweak MY install to what I like
(and this forum if USED semi-correctly certainly don't hurt either)

stevea hit it here-- "but the attitude of the inquirer"
IS a large point, just remember they can also be very frustrated, or confused.
If you suspect a troll--go along with it, they love attention
If they just want to vent their last bit of patience gone--again, go with it.
Some don't even have a clue as to what to ask...go gently.
If they need some help and are just too stubborn to ask, well, there's always Bob's approach.
And if they are just a troll---paint a target quick on their butt before Bob/Gall/Sailor takes aim.
Better yet--ignore heck out of them, they just fade away with no attention.
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  #18  
Old 29th July 2007, 02:57 PM
stevea Offline
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Let me point out two pet peeves related to the whiney-newbie problem

1/ Often the newbie will be give a solution which they reject for mysterious reasons. Someone proposes that the install XYZ and type command "FOOBAR" and they simply reply that that isn't what they want to do. Too bad.

2/ Often the reply to real questions is non-responsive to the problem. A great example from a few days ago; some guy had bollux'ed up his KDE config and konqueror would crash on startup with a particular error. One prominant reply was to install an alternative browser! That is baloney. We should all be aware that a workaround is a bandaid and not an acceptable solution. Noting a workaound is one thing - proposing it as a solution is another.
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  #19  
Old 29th July 2007, 02:59 PM
Dan Offline
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Hmmm.

Quoting Shakespeare? How about this one?

"And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial."


Note: (The preceding quote has been quite deliberately pulled from context in order to support a spurious argument.)
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  #20  
Old 29th July 2007, 03:10 PM
w5set Offline
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"Ohh, the tangled web we weave!"
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  #21  
Old 29th July 2007, 03:12 PM
Dan Offline
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Give that man a cigar ... he gets it! <....>
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  #22  
Old 29th July 2007, 03:38 PM
w5set Offline
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Corrupting another quote as much as I can possibly get by with...

"You can please some of the Fedora Users part of the time.
You can please some of the Fedora Users 100% of the time.
But you can never please some of the Fedora Forum Users hardly any of the time!!"
(above line is readable 2 wayz.... )

My personal bottom line approach is..
Life and Linux are what YOU put into them...Don't expect much more then that.
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  #23  
Old 29th July 2007, 04:10 PM
Boris Cat Offline
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Actually in reference to people that live under bridges.....
I prefer 2 methods

1 is to carefully rebutt his arguements.

2 is to use a famous movie quote in reference to him
"Quick get the sword out, I want to cut his head off!"

Boris
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  #24  
Old 29th July 2007, 04:23 PM
stevea Offline
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Here is one I should learn ...

Quote:
When you wish to instruct, be brief; that men's minds take in quickly what you say, learn its lesson, and retain it faithfully. Every word that is unnecessary only pours over the side of a brimming mind.
-Cicero
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  #25  
Old 29th July 2007, 05:21 PM
w5set Offline
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And some I learned while being certified for Adult Education.. (rocket science and "brane" surgery and lots of others excepted of course)

You have to reinforce the knowledge 5 times for the average person over the age of 18 to 21 before they have it firmly in their mind. (they have less "will/want to learn" then a 3 to 9 year old--usually just 3 times for them!)

Never use much more then a session that lasts one hour so so long before giving a break.

Ignore above advise for those who deeply WANT to learn the subject and just proceed along.

If you have the required attention, proceed along until their eyes glaze over.
(i.e.--work the crowd to their limit)

Lastly, there's ALWAYS one in the crowd that sometimes never gets it, and one brilliant one that you have to watch closely or he/she passes you in knowledge quickly and YOU become the student.
(but I still get paid--hehe)
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  #26  
Old 29th July 2007, 06:13 PM
Thetargos Online
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Intolerance regarding anti-Fedora posts...? Maybe. A bit, yes.

Still these forums are fairly tolerant when it comes to that. I've had my share of problems in Fedora, especially 7, and have aired them in here. Have my threads been closed? No. Was I frustrated? Heck yes! Did I use strong wording? Sure I did. But I also placed some of the responsibility within my own actions. After all, it was I who decided to install and it was I the only one responsible for doing so. I've been able to resolve many of the issues, there are still some open wounds (problems) but I trust they'll heal.

The problem and common theme I see along with all these "anti-Fedora" posts and threads we see is that of a comparison, if it maybe inevitable the comparison with the highest profile Linux distribution as of late, you know the, brown one, Ubuntu; it also reflects that Fedora has been unable to get through a critical message: Fedora's goals. Many of us know or are familiar with these, as we're users, but lets face it, there still lacks some information at the main project websites. We all know that Fedora is not like Ubuntu in many respects, but we know that out of the use. If anything, Fedora is more like Debian Lenny (testing or unstable) and still there are substantial differences.

I won't say anything about the intolerance shown in many other forums, Ubuntu forums included (where mods seem to be lock-button happy), this is not about "Everybody else is doing it, so why can't we?" (no pun to the Cranberries album), if anything, we, the Fedora community at large are responsible of avoiding the confusion there seems to be from many users about what Fedora is and isn't. Maybe some day there's going to be a distribution based on Fedora, just like Ubuntu is based on Debian, that will aim at the very same people as Ubuntu, maybe such a distribution will never exist, in the mean time Fedora will remain, well, Fedora.
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  #27  
Old 29th July 2007, 06:23 PM
Hlingler Offline
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Hello:

I feel compelled to respond to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevea
2/ Often the reply to real questions is non-responsive to the problem. A great example from a few days ago; some guy had bollux'ed up his KDE config and konqueror would crash on startup with a particular error. One prominant reply was to install an alternative browser! That is baloney. We should all be aware that a workaround is a bandaid and not an acceptable solution. Noting a workaound is one thing - proposing it as a solution is another.
I am guessing that you're referring to this thread: http://forum.fedoraforum.org/forum/s...=kde+konqueror. If so, I would point out that the (frustrated) OP's question was specifically: "is there any other tool that I can use to preview my files which doesnt suck as much as Konqueror?! and how can I swtich the default explorer software to soemthing else!?". My response answered that specific question, with the caveat: "Konqueror can be tricky, yes, but you must set it up properly - later."

I have never claimed to be anything close to an "expert" - but I have a little bit of experience that I think might help with some problems. I usually try to offer suggestions, noting where I'm not certain of the outcome. Sometimes - more often than I'd like - I'm wrong, or lacking complete knowledge that would cover all contingencies. If this means that I should refrain from offering suggestions, then I guess I need to re-think my approach, and stop responding unless I'm absolutely positive of the correct answer.

If I have misunderstood or misinterpreted your comment, I appologize.

Regards,
Vince
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  #28  
Old 30th July 2007, 02:02 PM
rerushg Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hlingler
If I have misunderstood or misinterpreted your comment, I appologize.
I don't think you misunderstood, and I don't think you need to apologize for anything.
There's a multitude of "fixes" for any given situation in Linux. Variations in approach can be seen even among the guru's. If someone with a different approach wants to step in, well, it's an open forum.
Perhaps a PM to you to let you know they were coming or to suggest a different approach to you might have been appropriate. No harm. No foul. Everybody learns. Everybody wins.
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  #29  
Old 30th July 2007, 03:03 PM
lmo Offline
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A forum like this performs the greatest service when it provides helpful answers to questions to difficulty someone is having.

Having a thick skin and refraining from replying to argumentative posts is the best recourse to cause such unwanted posts to just fade away.

There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion. Just don't give trolls, etc., what they really want: An Argument.
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  #30  
Old 30th July 2007, 03:21 PM
JN4OldSchool Offline
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Well, in reaction to that Ubuntu vs Fedora troll, I was so impressed by Rav Tux's post that I paid my respects to the buntu guys. And the troll in question was handled the same over there as he was here. He wasnt banned, but he was definitely told off. We are all guilty of slamming the wrong person just because we are in a bad mood or answered the exact same question 36 and a half previous times already THAT DAY, but I think for the most part we do get it right and I think Bob did the right thing in this case and I also agree with rerushg and pete 1967 have to say. Frustration is fine, we have all been there. But when someone with 2 posts starts harping on how we suck because no one has answered his thirty questions then I expect he wont like the answer he gets. Bottom line is in todays society we think we are owed something for some reason. We expect, demand instant gratification. Having worked retail many years I have seen my share of "the customer is always right" syndrome Maybe sometimes I should just walk away from a thread. I know I am about to do wrong, I just cant help myself....
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