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  #1  
Old 15th December 2013, 02:05 PM
gizenshu Offline
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I am very angry that Fedora isn't organized exactly how I say it should be!

You as a team would have earned some respect if you stopped pumping out new versions of Fedora and focused on fixing gazillions of bugs introduced by your cheap offshore resources. So far Fedora19 is a clusterfukc of problems, just as the previous ones were.

CIFS travesty is going on for how long? 10 years now. Kernel I/O wait travesty lasted for what, 4-5 years? Over that time you pumped out 10 major versions, every time pronouncing the rest end-of-life and dropping bugfixing.

Finally your offshore resources from god-knows-where made their way to Yum and screwed it up royally. Congrats. Everything they touch turns into shti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
There's a whole cluster of different issues here, some trivial and one deeper.

As for the workarounds people have discussed:

Setting group_command to 'compat' is pretty safe. What that does is make yum behave as it did before this Fedora 19 feature:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Featu...roupsAsObjects

All these bugs are in code that's specific to the 'groups as objects' mode which is active when group_command is set to 'objects', which is the default in F19 and F20. In 'groups as objects' mode, yum writes the files /var/lib/yum/groups/installed and /var/lib/yum/groups/environment after each operation; it uses these files to try and keep track over time of what groups - both 'environment groups' and 'package groups', where 'environment groups' are basically 'groups of groups', an 'environment group' is just a group of 'package groups' - are installed. There were two major goals of this change:

1. Make it so updates would bring in new packages that had been added to installed groups (so, if the GNOME group adds a new application and you have it installed, you get that application on update)
2. Make it so 'yum group remove' had a higher chance of doing what you wanted

The Old Way of doing things was basically that if you did 'yum groupinstall (somegroup)', yum would evaluate what packages were in that group and run 'yum install (all those packages)'. If you did 'yum group remove (somegroup)' it would figure out the package list and run 'yum remove (all those packages)'. It's much simpler code and probably more understandable behaviour, but especially the 'group remove' operation is almost never actually what you wanted As it just evaluated the groups on the fly and only when a group command was issued, it couldn't do the 'add new packages in your installed groups on update' trick either. Anyhow - yeah, setting group_command=compat is quite safe, and probably a good idea while the 'groups as objects' stuff is as buggy as it currently appears to be.

'yum group mark remove' is similarly fairly safe. All it does is tell yum not to consider whatever group you pass it as being 'installed'. I don't think it'd ever lead to the packages in that group being uninstalled. All it'll really mean is that you won't get new packages added to that group when you run 'yum update', I think.

Based on the reports I've read I'd strongly advise not running "yum group mark convert". What it tries to do is look at your package set, figure out what groups are installed, and write out /var/lib/yum/groups/installed and /var/lib/yum/groups/environment appropriately. From what I'm seeing it looks like what it *actually* does is decide that any group from which a single package happens to be installed on your system is 'installed', so your next 'yum update' tries to pull in every package from all those groups. Which is very unlikely to be what you wanted. So...don't do that. I need to look into that more closely, though...and maybe file another bug...
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  #2  
Old 15th December 2013, 03:18 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

This is enough of your crap, gizenshu.

I have been patient up till now, but this message is way out of line, and also contains language that is NOT acceptable in a family oriented forum.

For one thing, Fedora isn't responsible for cifs. They aren't the developers of it. Same with the kernel.

Now please step back and calm down. People have been trying to help you with your problems on here. If you want to rant about something in Fedora, there is a special sub-forum for rants.
  #3  
Old 15th December 2013, 03:23 PM
gizenshu Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

I've outlined the solution: quit rushing the releases. World does not need 1 fedora per year. World needs 1 working fedora every few years. Even Microsoft understands that and they release 1 OS every 4-5 years.

These are not my problems - these are inherent problems of Fedora team. Lack of testing. These would not make it thru any serious QA.

People working on Fedora are the Red Hat Incorporated staff. This is sponsored by Red Hat Incorporated. This is not altruistic. This whole travesty is nothing but using the world as guinea pigs and stomping over us. Disgusting.
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  #4  
Old 15th December 2013, 03:33 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Yes, and Fedora works with what the upstream developers give them.

cifs is NOT developed by Fedora. The kernel is NOT developed by Fedora.

And the people working on Fedora are mostly people that aren't on the Redhat staff. Yes, there are some Redhat employees, but mostly, they are individuals from all over the world, contributing their own time and effort without being paid to do so. Yes, Fedora is sponsored by Redhat, but it is NOT Redhat.
  #5  
Old 15th December 2013, 03:40 PM
gizenshu Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

You are only making matters worse for everyone by shoving issues under the rug.
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  #6  
Old 15th December 2013, 03:59 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

I haven't made anything worse, and haven't shoved any issues under the rug. I have been patient and tried to explain the facts to you, but you aren't listening.

1: Fedora does NOT control what goes into the kernel, or cifs, or thunderbird. Those are upstream projects with their own developers.

2: I have warned you to calm down.

3: You are now making matters worse for yourself by continuing this.

4: Any more crap, and I will put an end to it, and you won't like how I do that.

End of discussion.
  #7  
Old 15th December 2013, 04:03 PM
gizenshu Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Fedora project has control of what it releases. It's called QA - the integral part of SDLC. Instead of sending downstream whatever comes down the pipe, you can test. And if it fails test, don't package. This is not happening. Instead everything that comes down the pipe is getting pushed down into the repositories and we end up being guinea pigs.
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  #8  
Old 15th December 2013, 04:11 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Bingo!

You have just discovered what Fedora is. It is a bleeding edge linux distro.

Fedora tries to provide the applications as-is from the upstream developers. You would know that if you understood what Fedora is.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stayi...tream_projects
  #9  
Old 15th December 2013, 04:35 PM
bob Online
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Since we're a user-helping-user Forum and not aligned or connected to FedoraProject, nothing said here is going to change what's done there. Perhaps if enough people were to click on the FedoraProject links above and express themselves or use Bugzilla, the devs might have second thoughts, but frankly I doubt that they're apt to change.

So, it comes down to us then. Do we continue to use and support the distro "as is", or do we jump ship to something else? One thing's for sure, no OS or distro is perfect. So, since I've muddled through a decade of Fedora Fiascoes, I probably will stay right here.
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  #10  
Old 15th December 2013, 04:44 PM
gizenshu Offline
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linuxfirefox
Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Do they even talk to you?

My impression is that they simply ignore the bug reports. Just let them expire and close them as 'end of life cleanup'.
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  #11  
Old 15th December 2013, 05:23 PM
RahulSundaram Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Hi

Thats utter nonsense. Hundreds of bug reports are filed and fixed in updates. A very detailed analysis of this problem (series of related issues really) is at https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipe...er/119502.html. It is likely to get fixed pretty quickly

Noone is deliberately ignoring issues here. Volunteer resources are always a scarce thing however.
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Last edited by RahulSundaram; 15th December 2013 at 06:07 PM.
  #12  
Old 15th December 2013, 07:37 PM
gizenshu Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

I've submitted dozens of bug reports. They never got fixed. Just closed as 'end of life'.
You are always fixing in the next version. From my perspective it's the same as not fixing at all.
As to hard bureaucratic facts, my inbox was recently hit with a few dozen emails from bugzilla informing me that the issues are being auto-closed as 'end of life'. None of them was fixed. You can say anything and it won't change anything.
This particular issue you've been assigned to is just a tip of the iceberg.
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  #13  
Old 15th December 2013, 08:03 PM
DBelton Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

While I agree that noone is deliberately ignoring issues, I too have had bug reports completely ignored.

Most of the ones I have had ignored pertained to gnome, which really should have been reported to the gnome bug tracker rather than the redhat/fedora bug tracker.
  #14  
Old 15th December 2013, 08:45 PM
RahulSundaram Offline
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBelton View Post
While I agree that noone is deliberately ignoring issues, I too have had bug reports completely ignored.

Most of the ones I have had ignored pertained to gnome, which really should have been reported to the gnome bug tracker rather than the redhat/fedora bug tracker.
Yes, if they are non packaging related issues, they should preferably be reported upstream and inherited via updates in the distributions.

I am pretty sure there are bugs that go unnoticed but it is incorrect to claim that ALL bugs are unnoticed or even the majority of them are across the distribution. If you need proof to the contrary, look at the bugs section in http://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates
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  #15  
Old 15th December 2013, 09:15 PM
lsatenstein Online
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Re: Yum Group seems to be messed up

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizenshu View Post
I've outlined the solution: quit rushing the releases. World does not need 1 fedora per year. World needs 1 working fedora every few years. Even Microsoft understands that and they release 1 OS every 4-5 years.

These are not my problems - these are inherent problems of Fedora team. Lack of testing. These would not make it thru any serious QA.

People working on Fedora are the Red Hat Incorporated staff. This is sponsored by Red Hat Incorporated. This is not altruistic. This whole travesty is nothing but using the world as guinea pigs and stomping over us. Disgusting.
If you are not happy with Fedora, find and propose ways to do things improve it. You complained about RedHat taking advantage of we Fedora users. Is it really the reverse? Are you getting a free Linux, with web browser, email software, office software, compilers, network tools, state of the art tools to build and manage servers and more. If this is not what you expected, you can go elsewhere or join in and appreciate. I for one once compared what it would cost me (a retired old man), to what it would be to purchase virus plagued commercial systems) and Linux won. With Fedora I learned so much more this way than playing for expensive Windows based software and of course, the commercial courses. Here is my only advice to you. "Be happy, help out, or be ignored."
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