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  #16  
Old 22nd October 2009, 04:57 PM
bob Online
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AH! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdina..._Ernst_Porsche
Nazi > Porsche > VW. You learn something new every day! Done for today, now...zzzzzzz
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  #17  
Old 22nd October 2009, 05:01 PM
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If I remember right Porsche was basically imprisoned and forced to design the "The Car of The People". I believe that is how VW was started. VW= The Car of The People.
  #18  
Old 22nd October 2009, 05:05 PM
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Yeah, never knew that. Interesting read.
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  #19  
Old 23rd October 2009, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyryder View Post
If I remember right Porsche was basically imprisoned and forced to design the "The Car of The People". I believe that is how VW was started. VW= The Car of The People.
So very wrong -
Ferdinand was imprisoned in France after WW2 and charged (but never tried ) as a war criminal !!

He received science/arts awards from the Nazi regime as was as auto and tank orders. He seems to have been very friendly to the Nazi regime both before & during the war. They used some forced Jewish labor during the war.

Then we have more recent claims:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs...g_list_of.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120124.html

--
Porsche (both Ferdinand and Ferry) were a great designers of that era - but at best they were totally blind to the moral horrors they directly participated in

Karl Benz & Wilhelm Maybach invented the boxer type engine in the late 1800s. The type that much later appears in the VW beetle ! Great design but there was a lot of late industrial revolution type activity in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, N.Italy in the century before WW2.
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Last edited by stevea; 23rd October 2009 at 02:39 PM.
  #20  
Old 23rd October 2009, 02:42 PM
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Stevea, I was going to correct kyryder too but thought why open this can of worms? We will never know the extent that the Porsches were nazi themselves. There is an account of Ferdinand actually smuggling one of his Jewish employees out of Germany. I think they were just people who loved engineering and were trying to get along in their world. There is no doubt that they had Hitler's ear and Hitler favored them in their field. The designed great stuff, the Kubelwagen was their jeep and the schwimwagen was certainly innovative. But I think they were non-political themselves. I am sure they were patriotic, that they were working for the greater good of Germany, and I am sure there were probably aspects of their government that they didnt like. But really, put yourself in their place. What can you do? It is easy for us to judge because we never lived through it. Yet... Sorry, I wont go there... At any rate, there is no doubt that Volkswagen played a prominent role in the nazi war machine, as did BMW, Daimler-Benz, Bosch, and any other German (or Italian) company you can think of. Look at Mitsubishi, they produced the best Japanese fighter plane. It is water under the bridge. I dont believe the Porches were war criminals, I dont believe they were responsible for any atrocities, and I dont think they need to be dragged through all that. I think they were engineers, designers, and business men just trying to get by. Were they trying to help Germany win the war? Of course! Since when is it a crime to be patriotic to your country?

edit: Besides, look at the context they place this quote in:

Quote:
The brochure does, however, contain lovely stories about the vision of Ferry Porsche, who believed that he was born in a car.
This makes Ferry look like an idiot. What he said was he loves the automobile so much he must have been born in a car. You can put spin on anything.

Last edited by JN4OldSchool; 23rd October 2009 at 02:45 PM.
  #21  
Old 23rd October 2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JN4OldSchool View Post
Stevea, I was going to correct kyryder too but thought why open this can of worms? We will never know the extent that the Porsches were nazi themselves. There is an account of Ferdinand actually smuggling one of his Jewish employees out of Germany. I think they were just people who loved engineering and were trying to get along in their world.
But I like canned worms !

I generally agree that most likely the Porche family was not particularly culpable - but there is a world difference between painting Ferdinand as a some anti-Nazi saint/martyr thrown in to jail for his prescient moral stand - vs the reality which is that he, like a lot of ppl of that time and place, was willing to close his eyes to the wrong and go along with it. All that's necessary for evil to succeed is that good ppl stand by and do nothing. Ferdinantd did nothing when it was in his technical & financial interest. That doesn't make him a war criminal from my POV, but let's not pretend he's some sort of saint, as Kryder suggests.

I'm not trying to judge the Porsche family JN4 - those were different times different forces were at play. We can't second guess from this great distance. The recent political landscape is hip-deep with pixie dust of historical revisionism, moral reassesments and bad economic ideas relabelled as good. FerdinandP was a great designer, but he was no moral genius; just another "good German" turned to the dark side by his own self interests.

It stands as a lesson to us all that merely acceding to evil, looking the other way, is a major support for those with bad intent.
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Last edited by stevea; 23rd October 2009 at 03:33 PM.
  #22  
Old 23rd October 2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
The recent political landscape is hip-deep with pixie dust of historical revisionism, moral reassessments and bad economic ideas relabeled as good.
Off topic, but wow! Can I use this? That EXACTLY defines the situation. But yeah, that is also enough on this before it goes too far. But the conversation about Nazi Germany is a good reminder to us today. Or really, any people at any time. It is easy to judge from hindsight, but the scenery always looks much different from ground level in the middle of the action. Look at the great American industrialists that supported (at least initially) Hitler. Lindberg, Dupont, Ford...The list is long, and even includes a Bush.
  #23  
Old 23rd October 2009, 03:53 PM
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Well handled, gentlemen!

But with that, if you don't mind, I'm going to close this one now before it has a chance to get ugly. The Social groups are readily available for further discussion of these topics.

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