Big Imrpvement but still not a Windows Replacement

[w5set]

Ideas for improving Linux (F7 in particular) are good, keep suggesting them.

Posting them here may not help much since the devels/maintainers don't haunt this forum much.

But winning over the hearts and minds of day to day "joe/linda" users to Fedora won't be easy with the update, new release cycle it has. It does pose problems with new stuff from time to time.
It's very foundation is exactly that too--new stuff--new designs for accomplishing this or that.
It's designed for "NEW" every 6 months or so...that's guaranteed to disrupt and confuze even die-hard Fedora fans.
It's not a polished install that everything just "works" out of the box, proprietary drivers aren't included (usually) since the basis for Fedora precludes the stuff in the default installs.
It's purpose is "new development" (some of those auto install/tweak tools are being developed as we read/type) , it's certainly not a "for everyone--one size fits all" approach to a very stable easy install for new users of Linux. It's a development platform that does a fairly credible job "out of the box" for most things Linux users need....but comes with absolutely No Guarantee as to easy or fitness for any job.

It's a choice, accept the Fedora Project goals (and limitations) or suggest improvements to the Project where it counts--they do listen, but not much here in this forum.

Overall Linux is progressing at a very rapid rate over the last 5 years or so...you want a Slackware 3.0 install CD (cira 1994/95) to try for a comparison?
Give it a bit more time and one or another distro will become a bit more mainstream and accepted by the public....probably won't be Fedora though,,,,,it's a development distro.
But Fedora has been accepted by millions now for even day to day desktop usage and some really far out geeks (j/k) use it for active servers they depend on to just "run" reliably.
And if the OLPC ever gets running and those little lappies get spread around the globe--the user base will skyrocket.
But even that won't change the original goals/limitations for the Fedora Project --hopefully anyway.

[bob]

As I always say, FedoraForum.org is users talking to users. The 'devs' don't monitor our Forum and to reach them, you have to go here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate Also, I would not recommend Fedora as a new user distro. There are plenty of distros that are specifically aimed at that user and I'd hope they'd get involved on one that was already pre-configured with most of the packages that they would be looking for. Fedora aims to be a FOSS distro and that will appeal to a different type, probably someone who's been into linux awhile.

[sargek]

This a really good thread! I do find it interesting that when people talk about a "Windows replacement", they think Linux is not yet up to the task. I completely disagree, but with a couple of caveats: 100% hardware support and gaming. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just throw out a couple of thoughts.

Concerning tasks: for every task Windows (and its software) accomplishes, Linux can do the same, quite easily.

Concerning hardware: you cannot yet go out to your favorite electronics store and buy a piece of hardware without doing a bit of research concerning Linux compatibility first. Most things work, but some do not: printers and scanners are prime example. This is the hardware vendors fault for jumping on the Windows bandwagon and abandoning nearly all other platforms, but that has changed in the past few years, and will continue to change. With careful hardware research before making a purchase, Linux can completely replace Windows.

Concerning gaming: gaming is another matter, at least with respect to native Windows games. I have been attempting to run native Windows games on Linux for quite some time now, and am a paid Cedega subscriber. Although Cedega also continues to get better, it is still nowhere near the native experience. Granted, dual-platform games such as NWN, Quake 4, etc, play great on Linux, but installing them can be somewhat nightmarish. This is the only area, in my opinion, where Linux is not a complete replacement for Windows. This is also because most of the games I like do not have native Linux ports.

So, that's my 2 cents. I totally agree with w5set in that Linux has come a long way in the past 5 years. I have been a Linux user since 1998 and it has come a long way since then! I personally only have 2 reasons to dual boot: my work VPN, which will not run on Linux (yet!), and games. All mission critical work (school, etc) is done on Linux - always has been, always will be.

Hats off to the Opensource community for bringing GNU/Linux to where it is today. We, the community of users, developers, testers, etc, are a force to be reckoned with because we have the freedom and power to change our computing environment depending on our needs. We are at no one's mercy.

[garethmc]

Ok ... lets clear up another misconception that seems to have started then. I do not dislike Linux as it is. I quite like it. I am in fact typing this out on my Fedora installation right now. All I was posting was an observation as to why Linux (specifically Fedora 7) has not taken the world by storm.

GUI's make it easy. True, you breed lazy users, but let me point something out. The same average Joe that can't use a GUI to click tabs and buttons to try and remove drivers from their system is not gone be MORE inclined to use a white-on-black text-based command line.

Think back. To the day before you were @uber@ linux CLI gurus. I remember the first command line I saw with Win 3.1 and the DOS prompt. I sat there for about half an hour wondering "C:\" meant and what it was waiting for me to type.

I have lectured to complete computer illetrate people. Those who say double click the mouse and they snap their fingers twice at it. And yet, they have heard of Linux and how difficult and geekish it is to use. To change a mindset like that is not easy but part of the way is to make it even easier to use.

Oh well, said me piece and hope some people get the message that was intended. This is not a review or a slanderous attempt at an OS I quite like. Just an observation.

[garethmc]

Ahhh, yes. Windows replacement. That term crops up, but essentially Linux (thank you for helping me understand Fedora's goals w5set) has to replace Windows to gain any kind of major penetration into the Desktop OS market because the VAST majority of users use it. Windows replacement in this sense is not meant as making Linux like Windows, but making it possible for a Windows user to switch and want to switch without discomfort, and CLI's do offer discomfort. I use the DOS CLI often when in Windows simply because I started computers that way and know how to use the CLI to do things faster. I don't HAVE to as in todays Linux distros but the OPTION is still there.

Does that make things any clearer at all?

[JN4OldSchool]

Originally Posted by garethmc

Ahhh, yes. Windows replacement. That term crops up, but essentially Linux (thank you for helping me understand Fedora's goals w5set) has to replace Windows to gain any kind of major penetration into the Desktop OS market because the VAST majority of users use it. Windows replacement in this sense is not meant as making Linux like Windows, but making it possible for a Windows user to switch and want to switch without discomfort, and CLI's do offer discomfort. I use the DOS CLI often when in Windows simply because I started computers that way and know how to use the CLI to do things faster. I don't HAVE to as in todays Linux distros but the OPTION is still there.

Does that make things any clearer at all?

Oh wake up already! Computers in general cause "discomfort" for around 90% of people. Why are you so hot about this Linux taking over Windows thing anyway? Who cares? You like Linux, I like Linux so we both use Linux. Most people like Windows, let them use Windows. I am really beginning to hate this drive to FORCE people into using Linux. You sir are correct! The CLI is daunting to people. The lack of games and percieved lack of software will make some hesitate. Some still dont even know what the heck a linux is. Most dont care! If we like Linux how it stands then why on earth do you want to change it? Do you not realize that as these huddles masses, this herd of humanity, these people who are too lazy to read a 50 word clip explaining EXACTLY how to do something, as these folks come streaming into our world Linux will become watered down. It will become what we dont want. It will become the very thing that drove us to use it in the first place! Look, a lot of people think I am an eletist snob. Thats cool. I realy am not. I understand that most people do NOT hold the interest in computers that I do. They just want things to work. They dont want to think. they think enough in their respective walks of life. A computer is sensory overload. These folks are doing just fine with Microsoft. If anyone wants to venture forth and check out Linux and LEARN some simple things then they will fit right in. If they want it all handed to them on a silver platter for free then they need to just take a hike! The CLI is the enterance exam. If you cant take enough time to figure out what you are doing then you dont belong. That is YOUR choice. My 6 year old uses Linux. My 13 year old probably knows more than I do in Linux. My 18 year old could really care less about computers but he finds Linux much easier to use than that Microsoft garbage. CLI and all. Linux is ready. It is free and it is here waiting for anyone interested enough to LEARN it.

[garethmc]

I do apologise if I have stepped on your toes. It was not my intent. But it seems your logic may be a little twisted. I have always thought that any software package would want MORE people using. That by making software easier to use you make it possible for more people to use. As far as I understand you want Linux to remain a mysterious geeky OS that people are afraid of. There shouldn't be any "entrance exam" to use software. To master it, sure, most software requries that and billions are spent every year providing that mastered, certification after an exam (but then I don't think you really meant that).

And Linux is constantly changing as has been pointed out earlier by others in this thread, not myself. That change is happening whether you, me or anyone else wants it to or not. Why not rather make suggestions as to the direction it takes and make sure retains its core as a stable, secure and open OS than try to stick it in a dark corner and preserve it as-is forever.

Oh, and Linux is just an operating system. If it doesn't change to stay with the times, it will be left behind and forgotten in obscurity, as well as Windows, Mac OS or any other OS that doesn't look to change itself to fit the needs of those huddling masses. I know that the Open Source movement is a great thing. I love Open Source. The freedom to information. But that information is worth nothing if it cannot be shared with others and others aren't going to "get it" if they are scared to use it.

I commend you for having your kids using Linux. I hope to bring my son up using it to because og how much better it is than Windows or any other OS I have tried. My wife may take longer because she is entrenched and knows how to use her Windows OS and might not be as keen to make the switch as I have. But like I have said before, I am not the average computer user.

[JN4OldSchool]

Oh, dont apologize! I understand where you are coming from and I may be stretching my point a bit also. I have nothing against easier. Nothing at all. But once again, you need to lose the "marketing strategy" thinking. Other than pride in one's work, wanting to see the world a better place, make life easier for folks...why would any Linux desktop CARE how many people use it? OK, it isnt as black and white as all that, there ARE marketing factors at play, even for these no name garage distros, never mind the Fedoras and Ubuntus and SuSEs. But my whole point is that most people that have used Linux for a year or two lose that "wanting to convert the world" attitude. I really do not want Linux to ever beat MS in home desktops. This would be a disaster. But your whole attitude, even this last post is all about "you have to change or be left behind, linux isnt ready, it needs to do this and that to become a viable OS..." Wrong! It has done just fine the last 15 years and will continue to do so! I am not suggesting it stop growing and remain static. I am also not suggesting that it needs to be a barrier for people. What I am saying is that we do NOT need to become something linux was never meant to be for the sake of claiming more users. You said it yourself, I dont want to lose my freedom!

[bob]

If you haven't already, grab a Live CD of PCLinuxOS and perhaps Kubuntu or OpenSuSE or Mepis and see how easy and complete those are. Those are wildly popular and certainly drawing people into linux. Fedora's a tweaker's distro that you have to do a bit of work to get it exactly the way you want, and yes, CLI is something that most of us enjoy. The distro won't easily disappear since it's aimed at testing the 'cutting-edge' software and we all love to push the envelope a bit, but when I introduce friend or family to linux, it's not the distro I point them toward.

[rjstaaf]

This thread would probably have gone a lot smoother if you had leaft the dreaded "Windows" word out of it and just stated the examples which you thought would benefit from a GUI interface.

Personally I think all instances of the words Microsoft and Windows ought to be blanked out like curse words and threads relating to Windows deleted as spam but, that is just me

You have to keep in mind that what we commonly refer to as Linux is not a single piece of software but rather a conglomeration of hundreds of projects all put together into what winds up a distro like Fedora. Sometimes the GUI portion of a package is not installed by default and you might have to go looking for it. If you find an area that is lacking get involved and make a suggestion to the developers for that particular project.

[johannlo]

Look: anything where there is CLI access, it is possible to make a GUI over.

Even if all the GUI does is translate clicks into CLI commands, and parse the screen output into pretty dialog boxes.

Hence in that sense I agree, however the CLI MUST BE UNDERNEATH EVERYTHING.

[Schelling]

I stopped reading when I reached: "Big Imrpvement but still not a Windows Replacement". I understand that the Linux veterans like to answer all the questions, but when a question (or a comment like this one) is made over and over, it gets very tiring.

[Coolerthanyou]

I was going to say what a good windows replacement is, but I'm a gentleman so I won't.

hah, who am I kidding, gentleman my ass. Poo: there is your windows replacement! No one will tell the difference!

[rerushg]

Originally Posted by Schelling

I stopped reading....

Well said.

[Hobashira]

May I take the analogy of a car.

Some people will drive their car and in doing so, spend their entire life using only their keys and whatever button, switch or lever is accessible to their hands and feet in the car, not realising that there is a hood outside, with an engine under it that needs some attention.

Others will also from time to time open the hood, and do some minor tasks such as changing oil.

Others may want to dig deeper into their engine, or even literally regularly take their engine apart because they want to make sure everything is under control.

I have only a very small experience of 6 months with Fedora and am still at the early stages of learning how to run a Linux system. It is true that I tend to often rely on the GUI but then, this little terminal windows reminds me so much of my early days with DOS and the old A: or C: prompt, way before Windows. And I used to still like that "DOS compatibility box" under Windows way after Windows became what it is today.

So well, I actually want to look under the hood although I am often scared to "do the wrong thing" that will wreck my system. Take the simple "cp" command in Linux for instance. It probably has at least 30 or 40 options. the DOS "copy" command had probably less than 10? But then, you should know what you do when you use "su -".

And by the way, I now use Fedora for 95% of my time. I keep Windows in a drawer only because sometimes, those .doc or .xls files that people send me have formats that behave strangely in Open Office.

And I also think that Linux is not a future replacement for Windows. It is just over there. Whether you go there or not is your decision.

Hobashira