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Reviews, Rants & Things That Make You Scream The place for you to submit reviews of all those applications you use with Fedora. The Devs probably aren't listening, but some times you've just GOT to blow off steam or sing its praises.

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  #16  
Old 22nd June 2012, 01:05 PM
DBelton Online
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug G View Post

One last comment, I was pretty offended at the attitude of some of the gnome developers in response to what to me seemed valid concerns (not here but other gnome blogs and forums). The arrogance of some of defenders of g3 seemed to me to be pretty dismissive and closed-minded to any criticism of their "baby", constructive or otherwise. This general feeling of helplessness in the face of unresponsive developers may be why so many gnome3 threads here get locked.

$000000000000000.02
While I do agree with you about the Gnome developers attitudes, and everything else you touched on above, I do not think that is the reason that so many Gnome 3 threads are being locked on here.

This is a help forum, not a Gnome 3 bash forum. And while I have been as guilty as others at bashing Gnome 3, this really is not the place to vent your frustrations over Gnome.

The threads are locked mainly to prevent them from becoming just a hate on Gnome 3 type of thread.

I do however believe that the Gnome 3 developers attitudes and inability to listen to users does contribute to the number of unhappy users and "hate Gnome 3" threads posted here, though.

I do have to wonder how many hits a "Bash Gnome 3" website would get

Edit:

I do still wonder if Fedora will be taking the same approach with Gnome 3 once Gnome 3 hits RHEL and they start losing their paying customer base. (I know for certain there are 1500 desktop systems just where I work that will be looking to change since they can't install Gnome 3 on them)

Last edited by DBelton; 22nd June 2012 at 01:08 PM.
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  #17  
Old 22nd June 2012, 01:39 PM
stevea Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by RupertPupkin View Post
There's a lot of mythology about the "usability" of GNOME 2. In some ways it may even have been worse than GNOME 3.
Here's what someone once said about GNOME 2 several years ago:

That was from some dude named Linus Torvalds. Must be a newb.

More recently he wrote ...
Quote:
Linus Torvalds
Jun 1, 2012 - Public
Any gnome3 knowledgeable people out here?

I broke down, and upgraded my old aging Fedora install on my desktop. Simply because my old F14 comes with ancient X versions that don't contain all the fixes to make intel 3D really work well. And yes, things really do work better on the graphical side.

But with F17 comes gnome3. And I knew I'd have trouble, but also knew that most of the worst crap could be fixed with extensions, and I'd used 3.4 on my laptop enough to know it should be all somewhat usable.

But christ, it's a "one step forward, one step back" kind of thing. Change the font sizes? No can do - until you install the tweak tool, because the standard settings panel still doesn't do something as fundamental as that. Ok, I knew it used to be broken, I knew the work-around, but it's still broken?

[...]
And then I want [...]
And how do I add [...]

I have to say, I used to think that the "extensions.gnome.org" approach to fixing the deficiencies in gnome3 was really cool.[...]
But it turns out to be a major pain, [...]

End result: extensions.gnome.org may be a really cool idea, but it seems to have some serious usability problems in practice. And the whole gnome3 approach of "by default we don't give you even the most basic tools to fix things, but you can hack around things with unofficial extensions" seems to be a total UX failure.

Who do I need to **** to get standard font size and panel options, instead of having to wade through this kind of "unsupported and random extensions that look ugly as hell and break randomly" ****? Maybe if I told people I was going blind, and claimed the font size was an "accessibility" feature, people would care? Never mind that I want to make the fonts smaller.

I've been b*tching about G2 for years and no one ever cared a whit till they changed the desktop experience at G3. The Gnomes are an arrogant breed. They have an agenda that has little to do with the traditional Linux user/developer. That's fine by me so long as they go do it somewhere else - so I don't need to deal with it. This is not just some personal preference issue - G3 is demonstrable objectively worse for some apps and it's ugly to try to fix it.


IIRC RHEL only supports Gnome & KDE. I and a lot here and Torvalds switched to XFCE. I still have my fingers in LXDE which is noticeably snappier tho' less feature than XFCE. There are a lot of other choices out beyond the paved roads.
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Last edited by stevea; 22nd June 2012 at 01:45 PM.
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  #18  
Old 22nd June 2012, 01:41 PM
dragonbite Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBelton View Post
I do still wonder if Fedora will be taking the same approach with Gnome 3 once Gnome 3 hits RHEL and they start losing their paying customer base. (I know for certain there are 1500 desktop systems just where I work that will be looking to change since they can't install Gnome 3 on them)
Isn't Gnome supposed to be able to work without hardware accelerations without requiring fallback mode?

One would hope the massive exodus of Gnome users and the rise of the number of KDE and especially Xfce would send them a signal. I don't have the link but one article said that Gnome has dropped to below KDE is users, which increased some, and Xfce went up like 6x! I'll see if I can find that article.

There are some nice improvements, but the UI has a lot of work to do.

In my opinion only.
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Last edited by dragonbite; 22nd June 2012 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Disclaimer
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  #19  
Old 22nd June 2012, 01:49 PM
DBelton Online
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonbite View Post
Isn't Gnome supposed to be able to work without hardware accelerations without requiring fallback mode?

One would hope the massive exodus of Gnome users and the rise of the number of KDE and especially Xfce would send them a signal. I don't have the link but one article said that Gnome has dropped to below KDE is users, which increased some, and Xfce went up like 6x! I'll see if I can find that article.

There are some nice improvements, but the UI has a lot of work to do.

In my opinion only.
The issues are not with the hardware being able to run Gnome 3. (Most of the hardware is much better than what people here have been running Fedora on, after all, they are purchasing the hardware with your money )
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  #20  
Old 22nd June 2012, 02:45 PM
errorxp Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

I also think that gnome shell is total garbage . Of course I could install an alternative environment such as xfce or lxde but the thing is I have a modern pc and I don't want my desktop to look like crap. So I installed linux mint which comes preloaded with cinnamon.
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  #21  
Old 22nd June 2012, 02:52 PM
brianblaze Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

you all cry yet in the end we have a million choices... you don't like something try something else... you can do something better then just do it! lol sorry not trying to troll but seriously there are soo many options to even waste time saying I can't do this or I can't do that find something that does what you need or make it yourself... I love having options and hate when people feel stuck lol good luck with hating on gnome
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  #22  
Old 22nd June 2012, 09:16 PM
RupertPupkin Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevea View Post
The Gnomes are an arrogant breed. They have an agenda that has little to do with the traditional Linux user/developer.
From what I've seen I agree. Like you I've had a low opinion of GNOME for years, and GNOME 3 hasn't changed that. GNOME 2 might like good to some people now only in comparison to GNOME 3 (I think Linus feels that way).

Just the other day another Linux luminary -- Theodore Ts'o, the creator of the ext* filesystems -- ripped on GNOME 3: https://plus.google.com/117091380454...ts/VjbFCa7X5NJ
It's interesting to read both his and Linus' comments in that thread. It does appear that XFCE is gaining a lot of GNOME refugees. I get the feeling that the GNOME devs don't really care, but that might be just for show. They might start singing a different tune if enough users abandon GNOME.
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  #23  
Old 22nd June 2012, 09:41 PM
mwette Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

I have been Fedora user for a long time (starting from F1). I installed F15 w/ GNOME and was not liking it. I recently upgraded to F17 and installed FXDE which seems simpler.
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  #24  
Old 23rd June 2012, 12:34 AM
Jason Cone Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

I used Redhat back in the mid-late 90s, switched to Mac OS X when it came out, and have been using a Mac since then...until now. I just put together a new computer for my main system and installed F17 on it. I wasn't sure what to expect (I heard about the GNOME 3 complaints), but I have to say that so far I like the UI. (At least after I installed updates to correct the butt-ugly fonts and font rendering.)

Maybe the adjustment from OS X isn't as jarring as the adjustment from GNOME 2? I haven't noticed any performance problems, but I spent my "new Mac" budget on PC hardware, so I ended up with really nice PC hardware.
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  #25  
Old 24th June 2012, 02:05 AM
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Re: 17 UI sucks

That's the thing really, people who come from Mac OSX and sometimes Win 7 seem to rather like Gnome 3 and I guess that's what the Gnome guys are pinning their hopes and ideas on...

On the other hand they are alienating some (well, seemingly a lot) of their users who loved Gnome 2 etc and others who like all the customizations available without having to turn to third-party tools and what not.
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  #26  
Old 24th June 2012, 02:28 AM
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Re: 17 UI sucks

It isn't just that it is third party tools - it is that they can break with any random update, and in breaking, take the entire GUI with it.

And that makes it even harder to fix now that many of the system tools mandate gnome... or the system just doesn't work.
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  #27  
Old 24th June 2012, 02:35 AM
Jason Cone Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpollard View Post
It isn't just that it is third party tools - it is that they can break with any random update, and in breaking, take the entire GUI with it.
Well, if that starts happening to me I'll probably change my tune. Hope not.
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  #28  
Old 24th June 2012, 02:38 AM
Finalzone Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBelton View Post
I do still wonder if Fedora will be taking the same approach with Gnome 3 once Gnome 3 hits RHEL and they start losing their paying customer base. (I know for certain there are 1500 desktop systems just where I work that will be looking to change since they can't install Gnome 3 on them)
By the time Gnome 3 will hit RHEL, there will plenty extensions available to to choose for clients. Gnome 3.4 can practically run on majority of videocards except probably obscure hardware.

For what I read, it appears Gnome 3 reaction is mixed bag. By the time Gnome Shell matures, majority of rants will vanish. There is nothing new to argue with plenty of desktop environment to choose.
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  #29  
Old 25th June 2012, 06:37 PM
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Re: 17 UI sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyRes View Post
I don't mean to be insulting, but I just installed Fedora 17 and it appears that the UI is designed for a bunch of morons.

It lasted about 45 minutes before I wiped it and went back to CentOS.

Is there a reason for the UI being dumbed down to the point that it is actually more difficult to use? Is there a respin with Gnome 2.x instead?

Also, I know everybody and their brother is using grub2 but it appears that grub is going the opposite direction and is becoming far more complex than it needs to be.

I don't get it. Maybe I'm just too old and not hipster enough.

---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 PM ----------

Let me explain a little more.

No applications menu, instead there's an activities widget with a bunch of large icons.

No terminal in it, oh no, for that I have to type terminal in some search bar and select it from a large list of results with large icons.

It looks like Fedora 17 is trying to be a phone / tablet OS.

With phones / tablets, due to the small screen and large finger size it makes sense to have that kind of a UI. But on a desktop / laptop, the large screen makes text easier to read and the pointing device (mouse / trackpad) makes selection from an application menu cake.

There's no reason to make a desktop OS behave like a tablet OS.

I don't think things were very well thought out.

Just giving my honest opinion.
The simplest solution for you is "force fallback" mode. This is the same old gnome-panel that you're used to, though its white-on-black bars instead of the familiar black on grey bars.

Look in the "yourusername" menu under System_Settings --> System_Info, select "graphics" from the menu, and check ON "Forced Fallback Mode".

The more complicated solution is to browse through website "extensions.gnome.org", and modify gnome-shell to work properly (hint: stuff labelled as "frippery" is good stuff...) -- these install very easily, as the website has an "on/off" switch next to the extensions, click it to "on", and it will install that extension.

Now: I had a problem with gnome-shell too. On the surface, it is retarded and glittery. There is some real excellent technical advantages to it, though, and it just takes time for those advantages to be taken advantage of. I have now, on my laptop, switched over to gnome-shell, and the experience is quite satisfactory. Nothing like that horrid mess that the default "no extensions" experience is. If I was stuck with that, I too would be deleting the whole ugly thing.

Next time don't give up so soon. 45 minutes really isn't enough time to get a hang of a totally new interface and how to configure it.

At this point, my biggest complaint about gnome-shell is that NEWBs will have a hard time with it and quickly develop a great hate for Linux as a result of the poor/unusable default configuration.

My second biggest complaint is that gnome-shell is worthless on hardware without [usable] graphics acceleration hardware. My netbook/tablet is stuck with fallback mode since it has a GPU that isn't supported any more than basic mode setting. It will WORK with normal mode, but it loads up the CPU to do it, so performance is bad and battery life is terrible. Fallback mode gets me 5-6 hours battery life, gnome-shell gets me 20 minutes and a terrible laggy experience.

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finalzone View Post
By the time Gnome 3 will hit RHEL, there will plenty extensions available to to choose for clients. Gnome 3.4 can practically run on majority of videocards except probably obscure hardware.
Like any intel Z-series ATOM.

Quote:
For what I read, it appears Gnome 3 reaction is mixed bag. By the time Gnome Shell matures, majority of rants will vanish. There is nothing new to argue with plenty of desktop environment to choose.
It is definitely becoming usable now.

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElderSnake View Post
That's the thing really, people who come from Mac OSX and sometimes Win 7 seem to rather like Gnome 3 and I guess that's what the Gnome guys are pinning their hopes and ideas on...

On the other hand they are alienating some (well, seemingly a lot) of their users who loved Gnome 2 etc and others who like all the customizations available without having to turn to third-party tools and what not.
Well, my WIFE came from apple, and absolutely HATES gnome-shell's default retard mode. She does like the way I rig it up though, such that it mimics gnome-panel.
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  #30  
Old 25th June 2012, 07:07 PM
Dan Offline
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Re: 17 UI sucks

*Sigh!*

At the risk of repeating myself .... It's not like we don't have other choices.

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/pictur...pictureid=1167

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/pictur...pictureid=1252
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