Just came back and I'm already peeved!

[Mikecore]

I just erased a long rant about the dev's and making **** hard to use ( nvidia driver ) but it really don't matter! Ubuntu/Debian is always gonna kick fedora rear because of these type of policies. Ya know I been using linux as my only OS since 2003, I know what I'm doing its not like i'm a noob, the dev's here have always had this attitude with certain things, it really stupid! the only thing stupider is me for even bothering.

[Dan]

(Moved to Reviews, Rants & Things That Make You Scream)

[dmyersturnbull]

Originally Posted by Mikecore

dev's here have always had this attitude with certain things, it really stupid!

No, it’s not stupid; it’s policy. Not including proprietary software 1) protects users, 2) protects Fedora and RedHat, and 3) makes a statement about the feasibility of an open‐source world.

Originally Posted by Mikecore

Ubuntu/Debian is always gonna kick fedora rear

That’s a moronic attitude. And also… Debian?!!
Debian refused to package Firefox because Firefox supported installing proprietary extensions. Debian has always been far harsher about its open‐source policy.

I consider Fedora’s policy an advantage. If you don’t, you’re free to switch distros.

[Dan]

Folks ... the guy is already obviously having a bad enough day without calling him or his attitude moronic.

Fedora is a good fit for some, but not for others. It is also an evolving target. Give MINT a try. A lot of folks who have difficulties with fedora find some comfort there.

[Dies]

Originally Posted by dmyersturnbull

...
Debian refused to package Firefox because Firefox supported installing proprietary extensions. Debian has always been far harsher about its open‐source policy.
...

Interesting, I thought the Firefox issue was over them not being allowed to make the changes they wanted to and still call it Firefox. But of course I was also under the impression that Debian had a "non-free" section full of stuff Fedora would never ship.


@ Mikecore

For the most part I agree with what you're saying. But then again, it's been obvious that Fedora was heading down that path for quite some time so it shouldn't really come as any surprise.

[leigh123linux]

Originally Posted by Mikecore

I just erased a long rant about the dev's and making **** hard to use ( nvidia driver ) but it really don't matter! Ubuntu/Debian is always gonna kick fedora rear because of these type of policies. Ya know I been using linux as my only OS since 2003, I know what I'm doing its not like i'm a noob, the dev's here have always had this attitude with certain things, it really stupid! the only thing stupider is me for even bothering.

Wrong , nouveau will be included as standard in kernel 2.6.33

[Dies]

Originally Posted by leigh123linux

Wrong , nouveau will be included as standard in kernel 2.6.33

I can almost assure you that Ubuntu and other distros will still find a way to make it easy ( to install proprietary drivers ) for their users.

[leigh123linux]

Originally Posted by Dies

I can almost assure you that Ubuntu and other distros will still find a way to make it easy ( to install proprietary drivers ) for their users.

That would be a pleasant surprise , they normally nick patches from other dev's

They nicked my emerald patch

http://bugs.opencompositing.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1248

it's included in the latest lucid emerald diff patch

http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/emerald

[forkbomb]

Originally Posted by dmyersturnbull

3) makes a statement about the feasibility of an open‐source world.

Feasibility? Well, sure, if by feasibility you mean "a large number of users almost immediately enable third-party repos to install a variety of proprietary software." I mean, I'll give you #2 (Fedora has plenty of reasons to engage in CYA tactics) and maybe #1 depending on what your meaning is by that, but look at all the threads around here about enabling the myriad of proprietary bits that the vast majority of desktop users eventually have need for.

But, hey, I guess it's "feasible" to run my machine without flash and not listen to my 60GB of MP3s.

[Dies]

Originally Posted by leigh123linux

That would be a pleasant surprise , they normally nick patches from other dev's
...

Yeah, did you want them to re-invent the wheel? Next time license it under NFU ( Not For U buntu ) instead of GPL

But yeah, as far as these drivers making into the kernel, that's cool, but if they become a hassle I have no doubt the modules will get broken out into separate easy to get rid of packages.

Originally Posted by tjvanwyk

...
But, hey, I guess it's "feasible" to run my machine without flash and not listen to my 60GB of MP3s.

Absolutely feasible, not very enjoyable though, not unless you're a hardcore FSF geek, I mean member.

[leigh123linux]

Originally Posted by Dies

Yeah, did you want them to re-invent the wheel? Next time license it under NFU ( Not For U buntu ) instead of GPL

But yeah, as far as these drivers making into the kernel, that's cool, but if they become a hassle I have no doubt the modules will get broken out into separate easy to get rid of packages.


Absolutely feasible, not very enjoyable though, not unless you're a hardcore FSF geek, I mean member.

I think I will use the NF (needs finishing) license next time

[steelaworkn]

I have both a Fedora and a Debian machine. Both are nice and I have them running the same apps. Nvidia is a little easier to install on Debian. Unless you need the 3d stuff, the Nouveau driver works really well.

Let's see, both have good documentation, but the Fedora Forum really rocks. Guys on here just know their stuff and are really willing to share it. The Debian forum guys (and I'm on there too) really like to refer you to read. Until you have read all their stuff, they really don't want to talk all that much.

Up until last week, I thought GNU was just some Linux distribution that had an exotic animal fetish. It is much more than that and newbees to Linux should really put their reading glasses on an spend some time surfing and reading. The GNU/Linux way of doing things is a lot of fun. Ahhh, there was a documentary someone referred on a different thread that can be googled and watched on googe video. Someone know what that was????

[smr54]

Ubuntu's slogan is Linux For Human Beings, which I take to mean that their aim is produce a reasonable substitute for MS/Apple. The fact that MS is more popular is listed as their number one bug.

So, their goals are different than Fedora's goals. In theory, Fedora is the one who puts in a broken pulseaudio by default, with the aid of their irate users, fixes it, then Ubuntu puts it in. That is NOT saying Ubuntu is stealing from Fedora, it means that Fedora's purpose, in many ways, is to be the first with new, relatively untried things, while Ubuntu's purpose is to give its users something that their parents will use without asking for tech support.

Both are heavily slanted towards the desktop user, and require some expertise to get a system going that doesn't have all the desktop bloat.

As for the Gnu thing--I admire those who do it, but it gets in the way of practical work. I can't say to my boss (who is actually rather sympathetic to opensource), sorry, I won't use Skype to communicate with you guys because it's not open source. Our people offsite will have to communicate with me in some other way. Shucks, I can't even tell my wife that no, she can't use Skype to call me from overseas.

Things like calling firefox iceweasel and thunderbird--what do they call it? Lightningreptile or something?--while I understand there are reasons, the end result seems silly. It makes it more difficult to use in say, the enterprise, when certain basic hardware won't work.

As for noveau, from what I saw on slashdot recently, it will actually support 3D in F13. If they get it together to the point where it works as well as the proprietary drivers, then that will indicate that with perseverance and lot of gnashing of teeth (Gnash, get it?) eventually one will be able to avoid the inconvenience of having to get the drivers from NVidia, although it is nice of them to provide very functional Linux drivers, something many vendors refuse to do.

[aleph]

Originally Posted by smr54

In theory, Fedora is the one who puts in a broken pulseaudio by default, with the aid of their irate users, fixes it, then Ubuntu puts it in.

In theory, it is. In practice however, it's like this: Fedora is the one who puts in a broken pulseaudio by default, with the aid of their irate users, fixes it; then Ubuntu takes the fixed version, cripples and breaks it, and put it in, blaming Fedora.

There, fixed that for you.

[smr54]

That's why I said, "In theory."
I did have to laugh--got an email from an Ubuntu using friend, raging about pulse audio--to which I responded, I use Fedora and I've been complaining about it for longer than you.

It's still not that complex to remove from Ubuntu. It's become extremely difficult (at least with only cursory research) to remove from Fedora.

However, at least with Fedora and skype, there's only a one second lag or so, whereas with Ubuntu, it's more like three seconds. (Note that this was a skype test, with the other party in the next room.)
Of course, in Arch, where one can choose what sound system to use, using alsa, it worked properly. This was using the newest Skype, which has supposedly fixed the issues they had with pulseaudio.

Anyway, it was simply an example as to why, in many cases, Ubuntu should work better than Fedora. In practice, I find them about the same for my needs. Fedora works better with Skype, Ubuntu works better with my ath9k wireless. Arch does a better job with both things.