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  1. #16
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by ElderSnake
    If it could be done right, I'd be all for Fedora being a rolling release. Doesn't look like it will happen though *sigh*
    What would be the implications, and differences from what it is now?

    Updates drop into Fedora all the time already. Of course they are all incremental, and things like init system & unified file system changes are always deferred until new releases.

    You think it would be better to deal with things like that on the fly? It's not a rhetorical or smartass question.... I really just can't figure all the pros & cons of that approach, other than the obvious ones.

    Wouldn't Fedora just become Arch Linux with RPM package management?

  2. #17
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by R3v0lut10nary
    What would be the implications, and differences from what it is now?

    Updates drop into Fedora all the time already. Of course they are all incremental, and things like init system & unified file system changes are always deferred until new releases.

    You think it would be better to deal with things like that on the fly? It's not a rhetorical or smartass question.... I really just can't figure all the pros & cons of that approach, other than the obvious ones.

    Wouldn't Fedora just become Arch Linux with RPM package management?
    I've been having the same train of thought as R3v0lut10nary here... Granted, I haven't had much experience with rolling release distros (but I've been meaning to give Arch a try for the experience).

    If Rawhide is already a rolling release branch so to say, I'm sincerely wondering what would create so much more complication to create a "Stable" (to Fedora standards of course) rolling release branch which would be a sort of snapshot of Rawhide when everything is running smooth?

  3. #18
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    I use Fedora cause its stable and bleeding edge (to a point, on both counts). I hope it does not go to a rolling release model. I like installing a new version to get certain features instead of them simply being delivered via an update.

    I like how a release stays mostly the same, but gets updated versions of many packages. I like that Fedora make reasonable decisions about what constitutes an update and what is a 'next release' package / feature. I like the way that members of the community often back port certain packages and offer alternate repos.

    I have played around with Arch and the model itself seems to work well for them. But I don't see it as being good for Fedora.

    Do rolling distributions have a place in the Linux / Open Source community? Hell yes!

    Do they have a place in Fedora? No way known.

    Why?

    Redhat! Like it or not, without them there probably would not be any Fedora. Fedora is the proving grounds for an enterprise grade distribution. A distribution that is the cornerstone for many other products and many IT environments worldwide. Implementing a rolling release would be detrimental to the wider testing Fedora allows Redhat to leverage.

    This is as silly as the LTS argument, or the argument about packaging non free software. Fedora isn't Ubuntu. Fedora isn't Arch. Ultimately it is what it is. Fedora.

  4. #19
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    I believe arch and gentoo is for the experts - and not everyone is born an expert. It all begins as a newbie, right? And it will be a good idea if something popular like fedora stays the same for some time rather than like one face today, and another tomorrow, so that people get enough time to figure things out and learn stuff. Because its not only computer science majors who try linux, they might need some time. I`ve tried arch, both at my early stage and also very recently. Being an intermediate user now, this is what is feel - let Fedora be as it is.

  5. #20
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Well let's face it. Redhat has internal discussions about this and will make up their mind completely independent of the 'Community.' Or perhaps in spite of the community.

    And really.... Is there any better way to show contempt to your users than to choose Gnome 3 as your flagship desktop environment? Even the paying Redhat customers won't get the common courtesy of a reacharound when RH7 comes to town.

  6. #21
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Or ... it could just be one of those stretching (and therefore painful) leaps into the future, and Redhat could just be the first to have the vision, and steer the market. If that's the case, the question is ... in what direction will the market actually allow itself to be steered.

    The bottom line might actually be that the market portion Redhat is aiming for just isn't the one a lot of us are entirely comfy with. That does not, however, mean it isn't a valid and growing market. Case in point, one would assume that a computer software forum is a computer based thing, which would have a preponderance of computers using it at any given time. These seem like safe assumptions ... right up until you start checking this link on a regular basis. All those "Unknown Location" entries are smartphone/tablet users.

    So ... even though I don't like it one durn bit ... those Gnome Gnuts over at Redhat may be on to something. As to whether or not it is worth losing the folks they had ... for the ones they are trying to get, is a jack handle from a whole different jar of pickles.

  7. #22
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan
    So ... even though I don't like it one durn bit ... those Gnome Gnuts over at Redhat may be on to something. As to whether or not it is worth losing the folks they had ... for the ones they are trying to get, is a jack handle from a whole different jar of pickles.
    I don't have a problem with Gnome's tablet strategy..... I just can't figure out why they are pushing it on desktops. But I have other options, so that's fine.

    But if Fedora goes to rolling, that's a fundamental change to the distribution. I guess you could theoretically get around it by refusing to update or blacklisting almost everything, but that's a pretty horrible long-term solution.

    Over time Fedora has become the system I'm most familiar with, and I've been pretty happy with it. But not if it becomes the goat-rope that is Rawhide.

  8. #23
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Except for few core components almost packages are currently rolling. Its the release schedule that is holding the new packages.

    Acutally I 'm using gnome 3.6 and I am yet to face any hiccup and almost all components are working great which is so unlike pre-beta. The other components of the OS have matured and they are more than ready for a release. Evey time Fedora misses the release schedule by a couple of weeks or so. Thi time F18 is hampered since anaconda was revamped and the schedule has been disrupted in a big way.

    I guess TC7 has a solid anaconda. Everything worked for me. If we could get past the installation, F18 is great.
    Last edited by hadrons123; 6th November 2012 at 03:30 AM.
    HP 14 DQ 1025CL | Intel Core i5-1035G1 -Icelake 256GB SSD

  9. #24
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by jpollard
    The problem isn't "rolling releases are bad", but poor project management limiting changes to what can be accomplished.
    Well the problem is anaconda which is a radically different case from management of other packages. If gnome or ssl is all borked up, they can just use the previous release.

    In this case there was some there was some underlying change that was going to require a lot of changes to anaconda in any case, and they planned to go forward with a new anaconda ui too. So then through various problems and miscommunication the new anaconda has program delays.

    It can be accomplished all right - that's not the issue. It's that no one can estimate sw development time very accurately. So now they can proceed down pathA or can spend a moth+ getting the old anaconda working.


    Too many changes, too fast, make for an unstable release - made more fragile over time.
    Small incremental changes mean much more effort for much less gain. There is no instability or fragility involved here. Maybe you could start by leaving your FUD at home one day a week, then work you way up toward some actual optimism.

    In my experience this happens when things get too inter-dependent - as in "poor modularity".

    For a good (or bad) example of this happening over time, just look at Windows...
    Sorry that I can't recall the details, but there was an underlying change that was going to force substantial anaconda changes, dracut IRC. There were also plans to change th UI and add btrfs and other changes that would make the up-revving old-anaconda wasted effort.

    YES - with 20-20 hindsight we can say that there should have been a 'planB', that internal schedules could have been monitored better. That more accurate risk assessment was needed. These ideas and more were very openly discussed in the mail-list. They ARE looking for better strategy overall, not just a tactical approach to the current problem.

    As a tactical matter - I personally think they should just name F18 "the distro without an installer". So then you have to install a minimal F17 and then upgrade. *MAYBE* they could make a minimal F17 install CD that auto-upgrades. Yes it's a problem for a few, but so is a big delay.
    Last edited by stevea; 6th November 2012 at 04:15 AM.

  10. #25
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by stevea
    *MAYBE* they could make a minimal F17 install CD that auto-upgrades. Yes it's a problem for a few, but so is a big delay.
    Although it is fun to have the latest and greatest, is it really a necessity to have F18 shipped on time? I think that at this point, they would be better off to finish what they started and ship something decent when it is ready. I would have problems believing that people would need the new features in F18 right-here, right-now.

    I heard somewhere that Red Hat might base it's new release on F18 (correct me if I'm wrong). In this case, Fedora would be better to ship a (relatively) solid distro at a 9-month mark instead of a crippled one at 7 months.

    Once all is said and done, I only hope that the team will maybe re-think their organisation of schedules and updates for future releases. It is only unfortunate that Fedora is being given a bad rap over all of this. Maybe more structure given from Red Hat can help steer the project back on track?

  11. #26
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by TK492
    Although it is fun to have the latest and greatest, is it really a necessity to have F18 shipped on time? I think that at this point, they would be better off to finish what they started and ship something decent when it is ready. I would have problems believing that people would need the new features in F18 right-here, right-now.
    That's pretty much what I figured too. But really, what the hell would I know about it.... I haven't tested F18 and don't even really know what it will bring that is of utmost importance to me as a fairly average Linux user. My guess? Nothing at all.

  12. #27
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by R3v0lut10nary
    Wouldn't Fedora just become Arch Linux with RPM package management?
    I'm mainly an Arch user, as if that would sound bad to me

    I'm not a dev and don't know how much it affects that side of things, but as a user, my experience with rolling is pretty good (I'm amazed how quickly and smoothly the Arch devs have managed to switch to Systemd completely).

    On the other hand, without new shiny releases to attract media attention and user excitement etc... well I suppose that might be a factor.
    OS': Fedora 25 - Arch Linux

  13. #28
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by ElderSnake
    ...I'm amazed how quickly and smoothly the Arch devs have managed to switch to Systemd completely.

    On the other hand, without new shiny releases to attract media attention and user excitement etc... well I suppose that might be a factor.
    Yup, I was surprised as well how fast the devs handled it.

    I managed to turn my system to pure systemd in like 5 minutes and the advantages prevail the good old initscripts.

    There are not a lot of distros running a true rolling-release model, just arch, gentoo, rpath and yopper. Other part, cyclic and pseudo-rolling release stuff is just crap and not a real rolling release-modell (rawhide, debian testing, tumbleweed).

    It has been discussed a couple times to turn Fedora in a rolling-release model, but they don't want to.


    The question is, would Fedora gain more popularity if F would become a true rolling release distro and become more "complicated/professional" to use for newbies?

    What really would scare me off as a newbie is the current release cycle, a new version every 6 months only supported 13 months , and the upgrading process is just...well, not the best.

  14. #29
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Stevea, maybe you should pay attentention.

    Small incremental changes mean much more effort for much less gain. There is no instability or fragility involved here. Maybe you could start by leaving your FUD at home one day a week, then work you way up toward some actual optimism.
    Too many changes doesn't mean what you think. Too many changes mean BREAKING THINGS THAT WORK for no reason at all.

    Small incremental changes is better - The kernel developers know that.

    Look at the mailing list if you have forgotten.

    It allows other developers to understand what is being changed, why it is being changed, and HOW it is being changed.

    It also minimizes BREAKAGE. What breakage does happen is easily identified to a particular change. That in turn allows easily backing out the BREAKAGE.

    It also allows the design to be reviewed for BRAIN DAMAGE. And that allows the design to either be modified, corrected, or even REJECTED, and without having the entire system fail.

    Gnome 3 can be rejected - it is self contained, and alternatives are available.

    Systemd cannot be rejected. It has been broken since day 1. It is still broken. Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't turn it into a ballerina... it is still just a pig.

  15. #30
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    Re: Fedora as rolling release

    Quote Originally Posted by ElderSnake
    I'm mainly an Arch user, as if that would sound bad to me

    I'm not a dev and don't know how much it affects that side of things, but as a user, my experience with rolling is pretty good (I'm amazed how quickly and smoothly the Arch devs have managed to switch to Systemd completely).

    On the other hand, without new shiny releases to attract media attention and user excitement etc... well I suppose that might be a factor.
    The Arch comparison wasn't a negative. It's a respectable system and the online documentation is a must-have for me.

    It's just that rolling releases aren't my thing.

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