Fedora 5 and usability

[roli8200]

Hi all

I just testing Fedora 5 test 2 and got a bit shocked.
I think I don't need to talk about the password and logon problem its well known.
But I saw some other very serious "bugs" in usablity and userfriendly

- First of all where has the the switchdesk gone?
- If all you guys turn upside down. NOBODY LIKES GNOME!!!! Nobody I know would ever install gnome and the less of possibility to switch to kde (switchdesk as above) looks like dictatorship for gnome.

- Second one: PLEASE PLEASE change the current graphical design and this bluecurve theme.
I would never dare to show a original bluecurve desktop to linux newbie. He would asap switch back to
windows. And also: please change this actual fedora logo and the whole graphics around it. It looks just
ugly.

- Third one: Even if You guys in the USA never heard about bluetooth, here in europe its a widely used
functionality to sync the desktop apps (kontact/evolution) with the mobile phones.
Why is the bluetooth stack disabled in kde? On SuSE You can plug a bluetooth (usb) dongle to the system
and it works. I don't wann propagate the dau users. But a bit of usablity would really be plus for fedora

By the way. this was one reason why I switched my whole desktops to SuSE; the servers already running with fedora.Yes its true, Fedora is much more stable and reliable but it misses the most of the features a current professional desktop user in banking or business (as I work as Systems Engineer) expecting. You can't just cut features out of the window managers or other apps. And altough its a sacrilege just install windows xp and take a look at the usability there. I don't mean other things like the very catastrophic security there or other leaks just the usablity, and try to get some of it into the fedora desktop.

Its possible that redhat focusses on the server market and has totally forgotten the desktop users but this is no excuse. Working with fedora feels like working with a 15-year old sun.

PLEASE GUYS COME TO US INTO THE PRESENT.

[dishkuvek]

Hi all
But I saw some other very serious "bugs" in usability and userfriendly

- If all you guys turn upside down. NOBODY LIKES GNOME!!!! Nobody I know would ever install gnome and the less of possibility to switch to kde (switchdesk as above) looks like dictatorship for gnome.


This does not seem like a bug to me. The GNOME issue comes down to preference. I understand that people who want KDE should have that option, but saying nobody likes GNOME is crazy. A lot of people like GNOME.


- Second one: PLEASE PLEASE change the current graphical design and this bluecurve theme.
I would never dare to show a original bluecurve desktop to linux newbie. He would asap switch back to
windows. And also: please change this actual fedora logo and the whole graphics around it. It looks just
ugly.


Again, this is not a bug, and it also comes down to preference. I happen to like the bluecurve theme. Well, I like it in GNOME that is. If I am using other distros, or even one of the BSDs, one of the first things I do is install the bluecurve icons. I can't speak for the Fedora KDE desktop, but in GNOME the only bluecurve left is the icons and the cursor. The GTK controls and metacity theme are all clearlooks. If you do not like them, that is fine, both KDE and GNOME have EASY ways of changing themes. About the logo: the team just recently changed it, and I don't think they are going to change it again for some time.


By the way. this was one reason why I switched my whole desktops to SuSE; the servers already running with fedora.Yes its true, Fedora is much more stable and reliable but it misses the most of the features a current professional desktop user in banking or business (as I work as Systems Engineer) expecting. You can't just cut features out of the window managers or other apps. And altough its a sacrilege just install windows xp and take a look at the usability there. I don't mean other things like the very catastrophic security there or other leaks just the usablity, and try to get some of it into the fedora desktop.

First, what does being a Systems Engineer have to do with banking or business apps? Second, I have not used SuSE, but I know that it is a Linux distro, which means it is subject to the same boundaries as Fedora (in terms of usability compared with Windows XP). Third, who is cutting features out of the window managers? You know Fedora is a distro, not a DM or WM. Finally, if you find Windows XP more useable, you should use it. There is nothing wrong with that. I mean, I don't want to use it, but when it comes to picking an OS for say, my father to use, Windows XP is on the top of that list. There may be many things wrong with Windows XP, but there is nothing wrong in using it, unless you don't want to.

These would be some good critiques if you developed them a bit more. However, when requesting someone else to do something FOR you, based mostly on personal preference, and especially when they are doing it for free, you might not want to be so snotty. As it looks right now, no developer is going to take you seriously with that kind of attitude.

[roli8200]

This does not seem like a bug to me. The GNOME issue comes down to preference. I understand that people who want KDE should have that option, but saying nobody likes GNOME is crazy. A lot of people like GNOME.
I don't think its only a preference. See just the things Linus Torwalds wrote to the gnome developers. Its also a kind of being the master of my own desktop and can to the daily business as efficient as possible.
And on the other side, I think the "war" for the future desktop has just begun. And the release of vista is a great chance to get the people from windows to linux, but only if the linux desktop looks like a desktop and enables the users to use the full potential of their hardware.


Again, this is not a bug, and it also comes down to preference. I happen to like the bluecurve theme. Well, I like it in GNOME that is. If I am using other distros, or even one of the BSDs, one of the first things I do is install the bluecurve icons. I can't speak for the Fedora KDE desktop, but in GNOME the only bluecurve left is the icons and the cursor. The GTK controls and metacity theme are all clearlooks. If you do not like them, that is fine, both KDE and GNOME have EASY ways of changing themes. About the logo: the team just recently changed it, and I don't think they are going to change it again for some time.

But see the other side. We made a Linux Installation party at November, 30. 2005 with the announced goal to make the Linux desktop avialable and interesting for "normal" windows desktop users. And they expect a more userfriendly look and feel and they definitely whould never use gnome because to for far away from their known desktop. Its also a really important kind of the first touch with the linux environment and this should be as interesting as possible.


First, what does being a Systems Engineer have to do with banking or business apps?

We're making electronical forex trading for small business customers.


Second, I have not used SuSE, but I know that it is a Linux distro, which means it is subject to the same boundaries as Fedora (in terms of usability compared with Windows XP). Third, who is cutting features out of the window managers?

Try to start a konquerror and type in the address field: bluetooth:/ and see what's happend. You will get a error message: Protocol is not supported. If You do the same in SuSE 9.3/10 You get a bluetooth device browser. And as far as I know its the same behaviour on kubuntu, debian, knoppix, mandriva etc. But only not in fedora. This seems hard to me that somebody removed some kde features out of the fedora version.
Or start multisynk (multisync is compleltely missing on fedora) and try to generate a sync pair based on the KDE Addressbook and a Bluetooth IRMC device. Its not available as plugin.


You know Fedora is a distro, not a DM or WM. Finally, if you find Windows XP more useable, you should use it. There is nothing wrong with that. I mean, I don't want to use it, but when it comes to picking an OS for say, my father to use, Windows XP is on the top of that list. There may be many things wrong with Windows XP, but there is nothing wrong in using it, unless you don't want to.

I don't think Windows XP is more useful otherwise I would not write to this list in the hope to change something to make the linux desktop more useful for the peoples who uses it.


These would be some good critiques if you developed them a bit more. However, when requesting someone else to do something FOR you, based mostly on personal preference, and especially when they are doing it for free, you might not want to be so snotty. As it looks right now, no developer is going to take you seriously with that kind of attitude.
The things You wrote might be true.

The only thing I wanted to say is to have much more focus on the desktop functionality because a Linux distro begins its distribution on the desktop. And sorry to say that again: With the current default desktop no one in my area whould switch to Linux if they see the actual fedora desktop. The only thing I mented was to make step back and see the whole picture also see whats to change. Sorry to say this again but the desktop really looks like on a 10 year old sun pizza box.

[homey]

I think I don't need to talk about the password and logon problem its well known.
What the heck are you talking about?

- First of all where has the the switchdesk gone?

yum list |grep switchdesk
switchdesk.noarch 4.0.8-2 development
switchdesk-gui.noarch 4.0.8-2 development

If all you guys turn upside down. NOBODY LIKES GNOME!!!! Nobody

This happens to be quite untrue.

I would never dare to show a original bluecurve desktop to linux newbie.

I hope you don't as you don't seem to know much about GNU/Linux.

[bob]

Since RahulSundaram isn't on right now, I'll copy & paste his words from a similar series:
"If you are not prepared to file bug reports or post to the appropriate mailing list where it would reach the developers there is not much point in posting here since this is a end user forum which relevant developers do not read."

That isn't to say that YOU aren't willing to file a bugzilla or send your messages to the developers, but it is an indication of what needs to be done if you really want your words to be heard by the right people.

[gavinw6662]

my only response is that FC 5 is still beta - testing. I am sure the developers like your comments. But it sounds like you are seriously mad about some issues. That is the beautiful thing about Linux, if you don't like it change it. Whether it be distros or customizing it by hacking at the configs.

[Firewing1]

1) Remember it's a test release
2) Yeah, a lot of people like gnome, otherwise it wouldn't be the default :)
Personally I like gnome but also the kde apps, so i use gnome, but run the kde apps.
3) Fedora doesn't lack professional desktop tools -- you just need to issue a few yum commands to install them. Using Fc4 might be a start, too. No offence, but please don't expect our test releases to be good for professional use, let alone regular home use. Per it's name, it's meant for tesing.
Firewing1

[robghealey]

I, like Firewing1, like the gnome desktop, but use kde apps as well. I have been using gnome since RH8.

[RahulSundaram]

Hi all

I just testing Fedora 5 test 2 and got a bit shocked.
I think I don't need to talk about the password and logon problem its well known.


Why do you assume it is known?. Provide a bug report in http://bugzilla.redhat.com or post to fedora-test list.



But I saw some other very serious "bugs" in usablity and userfriendly

- First of all where has the the switchdesk gone?


Nowhere. It is in the release. yum info switchdesk


- If all you guys turn upside down. NOBODY LIKES GNOME!!!! Nobody I know would ever install gnome and the less of possibility to switch to kde (switchdesk as above) looks like dictatorship for gnome.



Merely a matter of expertise. Red Hat has engineering resources for developing and maintaining GNOME and it choosen to use its limited resources that way. Using GNOME or KDE is a matter of personal preference. You can choose to use either in the Fedora release by selecting the appropriate one either during installation in Anaconda or using Pirut or Pup post installation. If you want to create a Fedora version with KDE as default, you can go ahead and do just that. Within the Fedora space there are proposals to do that already

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KDE



- Second one: PLEASE PLEASE change the current graphical design and this bluecurve theme.
I would never dare to show a original bluecurve desktop to linux newbie. He would asap switch back to
windows. And also: please change this actual fedora logo and the whole graphics around it. It looks just
ugly.


Perhaps you havent noticed yet but Fedora Core 4 and above does not use bluecurve theme for GNOME. It uses Clearlooks which is based on the bluecurve engine by community developers outside of Red Hat.


- Third one: Even if You guys in the USA never heard about bluetooth, here in europe its a widely used
functionality to sync the desktop apps (kontact/evolution) with the mobile phones.
Why is the bluetooth stack disabled in kde? On SuSE You can plug a bluetooth (usb) dongle to the system
and it works. I don't wann propagate the dau users. But a bit of usablity would really be plus for fedora

[QUOTE]

File a bug report on this.

Its possible that redhat focusses on the server market and has totally forgotten the desktop users but this is no excuse. Working with fedora feels like working with a 15-year old sun.

PLEASE GUYS COME TO US INTO THE PRESENT.

You might not be aware of this but Red Hat has contributed very heavily on the desktop front. Take a lookat a partial list at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions.

Lastly this is a test release and bugs can be expected. The reason we provide a test release is for people like you who to test and provide us feedback but not here. You can file a bug report or feature request to http://bugzilla.redhat.com or post to the fedora-test list

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate

[RahulSundaram]

I don't think its only a preference. See just the things Linus Torwalds wrote to the gnome developers. Its also a kind of being the master of my own desktop and can to the daily business as efficient as possible. .

Remember that Linus Torvalds is a Kernel developer and not a desktop engineer. His personal preference of desktop environment (He was assuming it was a private OSDL list which it was CC'ed accidently to the gnome usability list and made public. He is never involved in such comments otherwise in the public to put this in perspective)

He made a very interesting comments on X which has been missed out unfortunately in the silly hyperbole of KDE vs GNOME. See this http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000504.html for the real meat.

Linus uses a PPC system with pine and he used to run bitkeeper. Does that mean that everyone needs to switch to using his personal preference and never buy Intel/AMD systems anymore?

I choose to use fluxbox. Does that mean everybody who like me needs to switch to it?.

What happened to the idea of free thinkers and freedom of choice in the Free and open source software? The whole idea of Free software is that there is no hierarchy. Everybody here is a peer who is only weighed higher by the means of their contributions. You are not contributing by insisting that everybody should choose to use your or Linus's personal preferences of desktop environments or any other choices. Use what you want to use. You can talk about virtues and let other people decide what they want on their own.

The argument between KDE vs GNOME or Emacs vs VI or any such time wasting non contributing discussions should really be banned in this forum ;-) .

[drunkahol]

- Third one: Even if You guys in the USA never heard about bluetooth, here in europe its a widely used
functionality to sync the desktop apps (kontact/evolution) with the mobile phones.


Excuse me - Here in Europe I've NEVER used bluetooth to sync mobile phone with desktop. I don't know anyone who HAS. I'm working with a fleet of ex-Nokia engineers at the moment. Don't assume that your own needs are actually the needs of the wider public. Have you filed a bug report?

Moaning in a user forum isn't going to get anything changed.

Evoking the "God" of Torvalds in an argument doesn't make your standpoint any stronger. It makes it much weaker in this instance in my opinion. Bill Gates doesn't persuade me to use Windows, Linus doesn't persuade me to use KDE.

If you see a problem that needs fixing - go to the bugzilla (http://bugzilla.redhat.com) pages and file a report. It's REALLY not difficult. If you have an itch that needs to be scratched, then that's the place to scratch it. Whining in these forums doesn't do ANYTHING for the community.

If you want to help - then please do. Otherwise, please keep it to yourself.

Cheers all

Duncan

P.S. I'm impressed with the state of this test2 release. Better than previous test2 releases IMO.

[dishkuvek]

I don't think its only a preference. See just the things Linus Torwalds wrote to the gnome developers. Its also a kind of being the master of my own desktop and can to the daily business as efficient as possible.
And on the other side, I think the "war" for the future desktop has just begun. And the release of vista is a great chance to get the people from windows to linux, but only if the linux desktop looks like a desktop and enables the users to use the full potential of their hardware.

I don't get this, why people think it is so important to move people from windows to linux? I mean, I use linux because I like it. If I didn't like it, I would not want to use it. The only kind of person that I would want using Linux and lurking around linux oriented forums like this one, is someone who came to linux out of a personal choice, which will happen regardless of what vista or the *nix desktops provide. I've never thought of linux and windows in competition, one is developed by Microsoft a serious money making business, and the other is created by a group of developers the world over, the vast majority of which have no financial interest in mind. Where is the competition? Someone please explain this to me.


But see the other side. We made a Linux Installation party at November, 30. 2005 with the announced goal to make the Linux desktop avialable and interesting for "normal" windows desktop users. And they expect a more userfriendly look and feel and they definitely whould never use gnome because to for far away from their known desktop. Its also a really important kind of the first touch with the linux environment and this should be as interesting as possible.

What is so user-un-friendly about Bluecurve and clearlooks? I really do think it is a matter of preference.


The only thing I wanted to say is to have much more focus on the desktop functionality because a Linux distro begins its distribution on the desktop. And sorry to say that again: With the current default desktop no one in my area whould switch to Linux if they see the actual fedora desktop. The only thing I mented was to make step back and see the whole picture also see whats to change. Sorry to say this again but the desktop really looks like on a 10 year old sun pizza box.
You keep shifting focus from linux as a whole and fedora as a specific distro. I believe you that you don't like the default desktop, but I don't believe you when you say that no one in your area would like the default look. Nobody can claim that kind of knowledge. I mean, I work in the IT world, so I am in your area, and I like it.

[ComplexNumber]

- Second one: PLEASE PLEASE change the current graphical design and this bluecurve theme.
I would never dare to show a original bluecurve desktop to linux newbie. He would asap switch back to
windows. And also: please change this actual fedora logo and the whole graphics around it. It looks just
ugly.
so in your humble opinion, what should the fedora desktop look like if you were to attempt to improve it so that it looks good IN YOUR EYES?

i personally think the bluecurve icons and the clearlooks theme makes it look the best looking and most attractive desktop there is on any OS.

[code_astronomer]

I use Gnome. I came straight from Windows into Gnome. I like the default theme too, although I have changed it...why? because I can...because I have a choice...I am FREE to do what I want with my desktop. Heck, I even changed the desktop background! That is ok isn't it roli8200? or should I be using what you decide is best?

[brandor]

I smell a troll guys... ignore him.

[bob]

And so, everyone having expressed their opinions and realizing that we're not going to resolve the state of the world today, I've decided to close this thread before things deteriorate. Closed.