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[greatscot]

How well are these forums performing?

I had one of my good tutorials attacked by a moderator with a bad attitude and he said some harsh things. Then , just a few minutes later, my reputation, then 90, was taken down to 70 by two users - they weren't adult enough to leave their name or a reason, they just left red markers in my userCP. These two reputation reductions were made within a minute of each other. The only person I angered was kosmosik, when I spoke out against his replies and asked him to change the huge (30 pnt?) red font in his reply and asked him to not post replies if this was the way he was going to go about it. I didn't think that was too much to ask... reply in a mature and respectable manner, or don't reply at all. Kosmosik is a moderator and is able to reduce or enlarge a user's reputation by 10 points instead of the normal 1 point that a user is allowed. So, I am assuming that kosmosik made two bad inputs (or made one and had one of his mod or admin friends to make the other) on my reputation to punish me for speaking out against his attitude and the manner in which he replied to my tutorial. Some of the folks here tell me that the reputation points are not important, byt U know for certain that they'd change their tune if many users ganged up and reduced their reputation to zero.

I spoke with several moderators and admins about this, and what happened... not a thing. It seems the mods and admins want lots of people to visist and make posts, but they don't want to help resolve bad issues... they also protect each other when one of their own does something wrong.

I have helped 45 people switch to Linux from Windows (with several more on my list for the next two months) and I always give them a "new Linux user pack"; this is a set of CD's with apps, tutorials and Firefox bookmarks to help them on their Linux journey. I have removed the many references to FedoraForum from this new Linux user pack, and replaced them with explanations of why FedoraForum is no better than any other forum or wiki, because I feel that these forums are administrated by people who are not helpful when it comes to resolving problems with one of their own.

I think I'll start my own forums and just point new Linux users there.

So, I will no longer make any posts to FedoraForum nor will I recommend FedoraForum to anyone. I was planning on writing many more tutorials for these forums, because many of the folks here sent me messages about how well my tutorials were written and how much help the users received from them, but I will not waste my time here anymore.

It's sad, because these forums are going to lose a lot of users because of the attitudes of the moderators and admins and "word of mouth" is eventually going to get around.

"To sin by silence when they should protest, makes cowards of men." - Abraham Lincoln

[Yatima]

Hmmm.... I don't know the whole story but maybe some moderator would like to comment?

The way I see it, forums are like a huge Western Saloon where everyone has the perfect poker face
and a loaded sidearm under table. One has to be excessively polite and go easy on the coffee
otherwise a little remark can spoil the whole show.

[bob]

Greatscot, I regret your decision, your words and your attitude. You have been a valued member in the past and continue to be one. I think you know that I have worked with you on prior issues and am willing to work with you and/or anyone now or in the future. However, please do not make statements such as this:

"I spoke with several moderators and admins about this, and what happened... not a thing. It seems the mods and admins want lots of people to visist and make posts, but they don't want to help resolve bad issues... they also protect each other when one of their own does something wrong."

It is simply not true - there is no secret agendas, no discussions or attempts to protect each other. The Community Managers and Administrators are members and PEOPLE who are trying to work through Fedora and linux problems and help each other. That's it - nothing more.

If you don't think that the Administrators of FedoraForum are interested and concerned, please read this thread carefully: http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49530 Let's use it to make your suggestions in a POSITIVE tone, not to deride any one person or group of people. Thanks.

[blammo]

Yea, but this ain't poker or politics... it's a technical forum. Some people get hung up on reputation points and being the bomb. I've been perusing these forums for a couple years now and it's been a pretty civil experience and I haven't noticed any flame wars or anything like that. The poster of this thread has "quit" the forum before because he got into a tiff with someone who questioned his technical expertise. Hey, nobody's perfect. It's a little silly to be a cry baby about something and leave in a big flurry screaming how you have been scorned. The visitors to this forum have absolutlely no interest in reading about that. Take that crap outside.

[sailor]

Allthough I would have wished that this be discussed in private, I will respond:

I have read the post in question here...I agree that the "large red font" should not have been used, but greatscot, your response was far more offensive and komosik did not use bad attitude nor harsh language as you did. He pointed out what he percieved as a flaw in the post.

The "adult" way to have handled the situation would have been to dicuss the issue via PM.
You did not let anyone else post explanations of why they thought the post was correct/incorrect but rather deleted the post (something which alot of folks thought the staff did)

All the admin/moderator staff got all of your messages, we have been discussing them.
Your further blasting all the staff will not bring people to your cause, and given the facts in this case make you look a bit overly sensitive to any criticism.

[macemoneta]

I disagree with all the moderators and the adminstrators on the handling of this issue. Whether you agree or disagree with greatscot on the specific issue of an abusive community manager, FOSS has at its foundation the concepts of The Cathedral and the Bazaar (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/).

Open discussions (not private messages away from public view) are at the foundations of these concepts. There is a problem. Admins and community managers have been notified. What is the response? Closing the threads to prevent discussion? How does that address the issue? There is a problem, and from looking back in last year's threads, it's not the first time this type of issue has occured.

Shouldn't the response be more than "take it offline", shooting the messenger (reputation point hits?), and closing down discussion?

[imdeemvp]

I think we are mature enough to put this aside. Let's focus in just helping others. As for macemoneta , kosmosik and greatscot I think you guys very knowledgable in your linux stuff. Your occupations and resume sums it up and that's what counts.

I am just a regular linux user with no such title as IT or network specialist or this and that. I just like being here and sharing my very little stuff I know which will help others as myself. I made mistakes in answering a post here and there and I admit getting frustated when bad rep. is given to me. Knowing that my intention was just to help.

So just as an humbel advice "let it blow over" .......please. BTW consider that some adms. and mods. are very young in age which does not make them mature. Crackers, sailors and some of you guys and including myself are older and more mature.

[macemoneta]

I think we are mature enough to put this aside.

I think you may be missing the point; I don't care about this specific issue in the least.

The problem is that there is no policy to deal with it. There are rules of behavior for users, and the consequences for abuse upto and including being banned are known.

What are the abuse policies for admins and community managers? Who decides when a banning will occur?

I have a suggestion; this forum has a reputation system; use it. If a user/community manager/admin's reputation goes negative, moderate their posts. If it goes below a threshold, (-10?) ban the account. Community managers and Admins should be prevented from changing the reputations of their peers, and those higher in the hierarchy. Reputation points in this environment should be allowed to be anonymous, counter to the suggested use of "//name" to identify the source. Hopefully, at least community managers are prevented from accessing the tranaction history to abuse such a system.

GNU/Linux is a community developed system, and the first large scale development to demonstrate the value of the "bazaar" model. Operating this forum like a "cathedral" is counter to that spirit. Change is hard, but, as the reason for this forum demonstrates, it can be very beneficial.

[ewdi]

I'm pretty busy lately with moving, so my attention on this kind of issue is split open wide. remember, we are all volunteer, unlike a personal financial advisor and manager, we cant cater to your ego on every issue 24/7 and promise a deadline.

From what i'm seeing, you keep bringing the issue up while it HAS nothing to do with the focus of this forum, FEDORA SUPPORT! as i said before, if you want to play politics, do it on email and PM, dont waste posting space and searchable database, it's already a lot to sort thru a search result, add again rant and rave on the posts to be sort thru.

your contribution is nice, but please, dont compare contributions here, if you like to help, help them, if you just come here to boost your ego, DONT.

I'm a resonable person, again, if you got problem with a person in this community, settle it yourself, if your questions is not related to Fedora, dont post.

Move on......