Should Fedora Core have more than GNOME & KDE for X-Windows System window managers?

[t3gah]

More and more Linux operating systems seem to be moving away from the popular window managers that users like for other stuff. What do you think?

Yes
No
Undecided
They should add this manager (I'll post my choice)

You can vote with the poll atop of this thread.

[greatscot]

I feel that Fedora Core should have more than KDE and Gnome as window managers/desktop environments simply for the sake of variety and ease of installation. Sooner or later Red Hat is going to have to go to a 5 CD image setup. I was hoping this would have started in FC4.

[LanceM]

I have never tried to install another window manager. How difficult is it?

[greatscot]

I have found that installing some window managers from RPM's goes quite well. I got lots of errors when trying to install a few wm's from source and cannot find the latest versions of them in RPM format. I'd like to try out the CDE desktop environment, but I cannot find an RPM of the latest version and I am not willing to try installing from source. This is why I feel that Fedora Core should include wm's/de's in addition to KDE and Gnome.

[Lenard]

Since the release of Fedora Core 2 XFCE4 has been included on the installation media(makes it quite easy to install IMHO). Also this; http://fedoranews.org/contributors/diego_figueroa/xfce/

[Finalzone]

XFCE4 is available on FC3. Unfortunately, it is removed in FC4 in order to keep the 4 CDs standard. Hopefully it will added on the extras repository.

[greatscot]

But, XFCE is not included in FC4 test1.

[t3gah]

I for one would like to have Enlightenment on Fedora Core 5 if they are serious about being the elite Linux distro or maybe all of the managers so that FC would appeal to everyone. But then again "B i t c h X" isn't in FC so I guess they, RH, are trying to make FC PC Correct.

That reason about CD * is poppyblah. They have DVD iso's now. Surely the managers don't take that much room that they had to eliminate them.

I think they should have all of the managers listed on the main fedora site with a howto and links to the rpms and support lib rpms on the fedora rpm sites.

Maybe RH is trying to eliminate FC altogether and this is the way they have choosen. Take out the good stuff that everyone likes........

[t3gah]

I have never tried to install another window manager. How difficult is it?You can install another one from the Add/Remove application when you are logged in as root or you can try installing them via yum, again as root, but switchdesk must be installed as well. When you do an initial install and you choose more than one manager switchdesk is installed and you can choose which manager by clicking on the session link.

I'd back up everything you want on your sys before you start the process, but that's a given for all changes to the o/s. You should always have a backup of your data, unless it, the data, is inconsequential to you.

(saw austin powers way too many times.... doctor eeeevul.)

[Finalzone]

That reason about CD * is poppyblah. They have DVD iso's now. Surely the managers don't take that much room that they had to eliminate them.


Not all users have a DVD burner on their systems especially users from oversea (Manilla, Filipino, etc).

[jayemef]

Definitely not. Keep them in fedora extras. There's enough packages included with the distro to begin with. If you can download 4 ISO's, there's no reason you can't download a new DE/WM. Take a look at debian. There are some 7+ isos that are provided for the distro, but few people actually download all of them. They get the basic discs, and install via apt from there depending on what they want.

I have never tried to install another window manager. How difficult is it?
Not at all.
# yum install new_wm
# exit
$ switchdesk new_wm
If you run into any problems there, just look through the forum. I highly suggest trying some of the other stuff out. Information can be found at http://xwinman.org .

[jim]

Especially when E17 is fuctionally ready, It blows the doors off of KDE , Gnome etc... It is built on a totally new set of libraries which are lightweight and extreemly fast. I don't know who has seen it in action, but I Love it. Everyt\one customizes their desktops respectively, I think the E17 project is shooting for that type of customization and the ease of customizing such desktop.
E17 in action for those who would like to see
http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17_movie-02.avi

[t3gah]

Enlightenment is definitely a winner in my book.

Someone suggested that XFce is or was my favoite. Perhaps they were mistaken with my posts in the gallery of multiple XFce desktop configurations. I only posted them to show that it's a nice manager with lots of features, etc. IT's not the manager I prefer. Right now I'm using GNOME. Why? Because FC3 is not behaving when I try to install DR17. Nautilus goes haywire and the fonts get all hosed over. gDesklets nuked my switchdesk when it was installed with fluxbox already on the system with Enlightenment. Yum install isn't always nice.

I would like an option for Fedora Core ISO's. If they had different ISO's with different managers or a util so the user downloading could choose the managers they wanted and then the iso gets built. But nah, that's probably beyond their comprehension or they would have multiple and/or the util option up now and then, well, they wouldn't be constantly removing window managers like they are now over window managers the people who use FC and I'm not talking about the beta testers because they are few of the many. I mean take a poll next time to see what the people like. They'd probably be suprised as to just what the target market they are aiming for really likes. And I know some may say this was discussed somewhere like the Fedora Mailing list, but that's still not good enough.

For me it's just another reason NOT to download any new ISO's and just use:

yum list
yum install <package>
or
yum update <package>

But,... the more I think about this, the more FC is beginning to look like their aim is for the target market that Windows XP has.

blah.

[Shadow Skill]

I took a look at that avi Fedorajim and all I can say is OMFG that is so badass! it actually appears to be grounded and not leaving you floating in space like e16 does. Do you know anthing about how well gtk apps appear in E17, I noticed that they looked kinda crummy in E16 on Gentoo at least, which is a shame. Is that taskbar thing I saw in the video included by default, I really hope so I will see if I can find some Gentoo ebuilds when I get home. :)

[LanceM]

jayemef:

Thanks, I will definately have to check out some new window managers.

[t3gah]

jayemef:

Thanks, I will definately have to check out some new window managers.

Check this link.........

http://www.linux.org/apps/all/GUI/Window_Managers.html

[foolish]

Fedora Core shouldn't add any more of anything! Additions should go to Fedora-Extras and Core should be trimmed down to a _core_. You can add any window manager you want to Extras, but not to Core. This seems to be where we're headed with Core 4, I'm happy.

[t3gah]

Fedora Core shouldn't add any more of anything! Additions should go to Fedora-Extras and Core should be trimmed down to a _core_. You can add any window manager you want to Extras, but not to Core. This seems to be where we're headed with Core 4, I'm happy.
And what of those that can't run either GNOME or KDE because they can't add any more memory to their systems or don't have the funds to do so?

Console mode until they can get something like XFce. What a bad experience for them.

This is what most people do.
[pc owner] Linux? hrm? I'll download it and run it on my pc.

Then there is the small number of people build custom systems or max them out with 512MB or more RAM and THEN go for Linux and they are the exception to the "rule".

Those who are from the [pc owner] group get shell shocked by the HCL that Linux has and then well, the constant nagging dependency problem is just another issue. As for trimming it down, LFS is what you will end up with, and with no X-Windows System they can shave some more off of it. Then it will be like BSD. Yea, people want to go retro with FC! :eek:

[SlowJet]

1,2,3, 16 as long as they don't all install on the other's desk top and they are controlable by user as to what is on the menus.
As it is, Gnome and Kde mixed on the menus is a mess.

SJ

[foolish]

Users who want a light weight desktop can get it, they'll use Extras. They install a basic system and use yum to install the window manager they want. And anaconda as of Fedora Core 5 (this is rumours) will be able to use so called Extra cds that can contain software from Fedora Extras to be installed at install time.

[Trendkill]

i think leave it at gnome and kde, people have to start somewhere. if they want something specific, they'll find it themselves. maybe the addition of a smaller GUI for those with little memory just in case, but apart from that, i think gnome and kde are fine enviroments for linux.

[marcos]

Users who want a light weight desktop can get it, they'll use Extras. They install a basic system and use yum to install the window manager they want. And anaconda as of Fedora Core 5 (this is rumours) will be able to use so called Extra cds that can contain software from Fedora Extras to be installed at install time.

I like this solution.

[ianmac]

I think that Enlightenment should be included in Fedora Core in the future. I just watched the .avi of e17 in action and it's awesome! This should definately be in Fedora Core in the future.

By the way, does anyone know if there are rpm's of e17 out yet? Is it hard to install or setup?

[Vinneh]

More and more Linux operating systems seem to be moving away from the popular window managers that users like for other stuff. What do you think?

I think you're generalizing a bit too much.

You make it sound like nobody likes Gnome or KDE..

[Ned]

Well, I'll be sad to seee XFCE dropped completely. I just hope extras really does work. I have no objection to seeing CORE become smaller as long as packages are moved to extra, still maintained and available to download as iso images if so desired. And if they could be installed from an extras CD at install time, that would be the perfect solution IMO, keeping everyone happy.

Ned

[fc_jeff]

Users who want a light weight desktop can get it, they'll use Extras. They install a basic system and use yum to install the window manager they want. And anaconda as of Fedora Core 5 (this is rumours) will be able to use so called Extra cds that can contain software from Fedora Extras to be installed at install time.

I hope this rumor is true. It will give the option of downloading and/or order (from a Linux CD distributor - typically $2/CD) the Fedora Extras software. I like yum, and I like apt-get/Synaptic. But nothing beats the ease of use or the convenience of installing software either from Anaconda or from Add/Remove Applications.

And I love Xfce and Fluxbox. It's nice to have a lightweight alternatives.

[fc_jeff]

I'd also like to say that I have had a good deal of trouble using yum to install from Extras (actually, with zero success). I've added the Extras repository to yum.conf (taken from online FAQs and tutorials on how to add Extras), but still could not install anything from it. Admitadely, I might have overlooked something simple, but I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what that something might be.

I've actually had better luck just using straight RPM, handling dependencies manually (downloading stuff, adding them to one folder, then doing rpm -ivh *.rpm).

IMHO, this is something about Fedora Core that very urgently needs major improvement. It should not be such a pain in the rear to add new software. It would seem that it would be an absolute no-brainer for Fedora Core to already have Extras pre-configured in yum.conf (with it perhaps commented out, if need be), so that there isn't any guess work or doing web searches to find the right repository and/or correct way to configure it.

By contrast, my experience with configuring repositories and installing software in other distros was usually relatively easy and painless. With Ubuntu it was so easy and flawless it was scary. With Mandrake, same thing. With Mepis, pretty easy. Fedora needs to big improvement in this area.

All that said, I think Fedora should include Xfce, and perhaps Fluxbox, as part of it's core. But Fedora is a test bed for RHEL, and they need to throw in a bunch of Java stuff and server stuff, which take a lot of CD space, so I realized where they are coming from. But since this is the case, Fedoar really needs to make installing from Extras a no brainer. Right now, it isn't - it's a pain in the rear.

[Finalzone]

By the way, does anyone know if there are rpm's of e17 out yet? Is it hard to install or setup?

Yes. If you use yum, here is the repository

[enlightenment]
name=Enlightenment CVS rpms for Fedora Core 3
baseurl=http://java.thn.htu.se/~toor/fedora/3/en/i686/
gpgcheck=0
enabled=1




Well, I'll be sad to seee XFCE dropped completely. I just hope extras really does work.
Rest assured that XFCE is included on Extra repository for Fedora Core 4. :)


I'd also like to say that I have had a good deal of trouble using yum to install from Extras (actually, with zero success). I've added the Extras repository to yum.conf (taken from online FAQs and tutorials on how to add Extras), but still could not install anything from it. .

Did you enable extra repository using "enable=1"? If you didnt success, could you provide your .repo file?


I've actually had better luck just using straight RPM, handling dependencies manually (downloading stuff, adding them to one folder, then doing rpm -ivh *.rpm).

Try "yum localinstall /path/package.rpm". Of course you can install more than one package with this command. Yum in FC4T2 is marginally improved. See this topic (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=51859).


It would seem that it would be an absolute no-brainer for Fedora Core to already have Extras pre-configured in yum.conf (with it perhaps commented out, if need be), so that there isn't any guess work or doing web searches to find the right repository and/or correct way to configure it.
Done. Extra is enabled on FC4 Test 2.


All that said, I think Fedora should include Xfce, and perhaps Fluxbox, as part of it's core.
See above answer. Assuming that FC4 is released without a way to install packages from extras (before first boot), you can do mininal installation then install your favorite desktop environment.

[fc_jeff]

Did you enable extra repository using "enable=1"? If you didnt success, could you provide your .repo file?


Good idea - I hadn't seen that in any of the examples or tutorials. I did, however, see it in the Dag Wieers repository yum example. So I gave this a try, but to no avail.

I'm starting to think the problem is now rooted in the fact that since FC4 is about to come out, FC2 (which is what I'm using currently) is in the process of transitioning to Fedora Legacy. So I've also tried configuring to the "old Extras" repositories, to no avail. Perhaps I did not do the path correctly - they did not have an example at that site. Finally, I also tried the Fedora Legacy repositories, but F2 is not there yet (although the site says that they are in the process.



Try "yum localinstall /path/package.rpm". Of course you can install more than one package with this command. Yum in FC4T2 is marginally improved. See this topic (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=51859).


I might try that. Good idea.


Done. Extra is enabled on FC4 Test 2.


Cool!


Upon your suggestion, below is my yum.conf. This example has the Dag repo commented out. But when it's not commented out, it works well. Thanks for your suggestions!

[main]
cachedir=/var/cache/yum
debuglevel=2
logfile=/var/log/yum.log
pkgpolicy=newest
distroverpkg=redhat-release
tolerant=1
exactarch=1
retries=20

[base]
name=Fedora Core $releasever - $basearch - Base
baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/$releasever/$basearch/os/
enable=1

#[updates-released]
#name=Fedora Core $releasever - $basearch - Released Updates
#baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/$releasever/$basearch/
#enable=1

#[updates-testing]
#name=Fedora Core $releasever - $basearch - Unreleased Updates
#baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/testing/$releasever/$basearch/

#[development]
#name=Fedora Core $releasever - Development Tree
#baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/$basearch/

[extras]
name=Fedora Extras - $releasever - $basearch
baseurl=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/$releasever/$basearch/
gpgcheck=1
gpgkey=http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/extras/RPM-GPG-KEY-Fedora-Extras
enabled=1

#[dag]
#name=Dag RPM Repository for Fedora Core
#baseurl=http://apt.sw.be/fedora/$releasever/en/$basearch/dag
#gpgcheck=1
#enabled=1

[Artik]

Have anybody tryed Common Desktop Environment?

As far as I know it is not free soft but is there good reasons to buy it for someone?

[ianmac]

Thank you, I have added these to my SmartPM channels :)

[LinuxHippy]

My old pcs like light desktops...KDE and GNOME make my old laptop hang and make my old desktop take forever to boot. I use Fluxbox on both pcs.

[ShibbyCoder]

enlightenment can be a pain to install. itd be nice if they added it in their repositores somewhere or even to the installation media.

[JN4OldSchool]

enlightenment is in a repo, though not sure which one.

[Firewing1]

Fedora Core shouldn't add any more of anything! Additions should go to Fedora-Extras and Core should be trimmed down to a _core_. You can add any window manager you want to Extras, but not to Core. This seems to be where we're headed with Core 4, I'm happy.
Exactly! IMHO we need this layout:
--> a "core" cd, ONLY this one is required for a minimal CLI install
--> a "gui" cd, addon to "core" that has Gnome / KDE
--> 2 (or more) "apps" cd, that included all the apps like OO.org
this way one can choose what he/she wants to download & burn & use to install.
Firewing1

[a thing]

Other: more in extras, not in core.

[fpoole]

Most DVDs can store 4.7GB (approx) of data. The FC5 DVD was about 3.3GB if I recall. Considering that most of the alternative X Window Managers are lighter than GNOME and KDE (by far), I don't think it would be too much of a resource stretch to do that. Then again, I don't know what may be in the pipeline that would make the extra disc capacity vital for the next release; but like some other users have said, you can get some of the alternative WMs from the repositories via yum. :)

[JN4OldSchool]

Remember, we are still talking about core 4 here, not that it makes any difference. I agree wit Firewing. Just about every other distro offers more than one ISO, there is no reason FC cant do the same. How about a "barebones FC5?" Or "KDE FC5" and "Gnome FC5?" "Dev-FC5", "Desktop FC5", "edu-FC5"...Of course once you get your feet wet in Linux you find out that it really doesnt matter what is included on the ISO as you can download whatever you need, unless of course you are still stuck with dial up. As someone who was in this prediciment, I recently got satellite internet because this was my ONLY other choice, I hope we dont forget about those people.

[RedFedora]

I think Fedora Core should have Gnome, KDE and XFCE. While I think others
would be nice to have also, I think those should be added to Extras.
Actually, I wouldn't be heartbroken to see Gnome moved to Extras.

[Botond]

And what of those that can't run either GNOME or KDE because they can't add any more memory to their systems or don't have the funds to do so?

Console mode until they can get something like XFce. What a bad experience for them.

Not console mode but twm until they can get something like XFce. Twm is a bit more than plain X. You can enjoy Evolution or FireFox with twm too.

[Botond]

Btw, Gnome and KDE are NOT only window managers. For example twm and metacity are window managers (I don't know how is the window manager of KDE called).

[jult]

In fact I'm starting to dislike KDE for the fact that it has this "K" in front of everything (it's just stupid), and that there are way too many ways to Rome in the system's layout. I also have a profound dislike for GNOME because of its condescending nature, as if I, the user, am stupid and don't like to have options.

So yeah, add some others! Maybe one that more resembles that of Windows 2000's versatile possibilities. Duh.

What I'm surprised about is the fact that Webmin has this great user-friendly design that always works and is always easy to follow, while none of the Window managers seem to get close to that with their subset of GUI additions. How hard can it be?