PDA

View Full Version : Why would anyone want to beta test FC4 for RedHat?


t3gah
16th March 2005, 08:50 AM
With all the patches the "normal" Linux user goes through to make their system "stable", I am at a loss why 'anyone' would like or want to beta test a 'test' release of Fedora Core. If it's a 'test' it can't be 'stable' or it would be a 'release'. :confused:

kosmosik
16th March 2005, 09:49 AM
With all the patches the "normal" Linux user
test releases are not for normal users. they are for developers and testers...

greatscot
16th March 2005, 06:53 PM
With all the patches the "normal" Linux user goes through to make their system "stable", I am at a loss why 'anyone' would like or want to beta test a 'test' release of Fedora Core. If it's a 'test' it can't be 'stable' or it would be a 'release'.
If no one "tested" it, it wouldn't become as stable as what others are willing to run. "stable" releases only become stable after the testers do their testing. I run FC3 and I test Fedora Core for the sole purpose in helping the test release become a stable release. I am glad that someone tested FC3 because now I can run FC3 without problems.

dickinsd
16th March 2005, 06:59 PM
I grabbed FC4 test so that I could get my hands on some of these great features that are rumoured to be included in the 'final' release of FC4, one such goodie is Xen, but I believe from what I have read this hasn't even been included in 'this' release.

Unfortunately my install seems to have failed, I am getting a wierd kernel panic, the mood has gone now, so I will just stick Ubuntu back on that partition.

I will wait for FC4 to be released officially...

Dave

james_in_denver
16th March 2005, 07:09 PM
Nobody is "testing" for RedHat,

Not in the sense that RedHat is getting something for nothing. I am really getting a little tired of these bash RedHat because they use Linux threads.

Fedora is a fine distribution on it's own. It just happens to be using more advanced and leading edge tools. The entire Linux community benefits from people testing and installing new software and packages.

But hey, if you are more interested in a "stable" environment, you can always stick with RedHat 9.0, or "Windows 3.1" (I hear they have finally worked out most of the bugs for THAT windows release).

Seriously, nobody is putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to do anything. I like leading edge technology, I like learning new things, I like new features, and I like helping out the entire Linux community.

If you don't like those things, then why are you posting on a forum like this that is dedicated to helping Linux users. If you hate Fedora and RedHat so much, roll your own distro, or start your own "i_hate_Fedora" forum on your own website.

Time to go back and start helping people learn/fix their Linux problems. (and yes, some of the just happen to use the Fedora distro, though it's kind of hard to tell sometimes, because all of the kernels are the same, and so are most of the tools.)

PS: Every used YUM to install an RPM??? and had it automatically install all of the dependencies as well??? You can thank RedHat for that. RPM is one of RedHat's many contributions to the open-source community.

t3gah
17th March 2005, 08:17 PM
Basically when a Test release is open to the public, it means they are trying to get something worked out that either they don't have the resources to accomplish on their own to do or they want public opinion. I used to work for Compaq in Engineering Services and the software division would only allow the public to use it when they wanted an answer. Not to say that RH doesn't have the intelligence to get it done persay, but it just shows just how much they rely on the outside world to get things done. For those who say it's for developers? blah. I worked for developers in my travels too. Developer links were secret and required passwd's. Announcements on the home page is inviting the world to beta test for them. For those who say "nay", GNOME is in beta stage on that 'test fc4", which means anyone downloading, burning and using said product wants to be a beta tester.

Then of course removing one window manager and the only window manager that works on limited horsepower pc's is a bad move. They are shutting out the whole world of original pc's so they can go with mainstream new pc buyers or recent ones. Another beta test. Test our new rendition for the yuppy target group. Offer a mailing list so we can see what's what, in house, etc.

Make no mistake about it. This is a beta test by all the factors they have laid out to the public. Shut your eyes and you will see whatever. Look at the details and you will see the truth and the truth will set you free.

And the only real angels are Navy Blue Angels. But that's another story entirely and off topic....

james_in_denver
17th March 2005, 11:00 PM
Hey, guess what???

FEDORA IS NOT REDHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What part of that do you not understand????

Oh sure, I am certain at some point that many of the packages released by Redhat will come from the same sources as Fedora. But what do you expect? you want RedHat to write their own X-windows implementation? or window manager, or web-server, or database?, don't be ridiculous.

You seem to have a hard time understanding that RedHat merely chooses the best packages/releases to "bundle" together with a smattering of some of their own code thrown in. And that Fedora, is a (group of mostly) volunteer effort that uses bleeding edge packages.

I really don't think you understand OR appreciate the community process. Somebody has to write the new software (quite often volunteers who are not paid for their work), then release what they THINK is a working version, so somebody comes along and says cool!, I've been looking for that, but it breaks when I do this???? So he either fixes it himself, or asks the developer for help, who fixes/adds to it, and makes a new release, so somebody ELSE says cool!, and the cycle repeats. And more features are added, and more bugs are fixed.

And all of this is happening without (for many in the Linux community) a single dollar ever changing hands.

WTF do you want? (yeah, I know, you are angry that a certain window manager got left out of FC4t1, I would recommend getting over it though) I don't know about you, but I'm running a leading edge O/S, a webserver, half a dozen development languages, 3 different database implementations, on a secure server running the latest security protocols, with an excellent office tool suite. (not to mention browsers, media players, etc, etc, etc.)

And I paid NOTHING for it.

It's the least I can do to help the community by answering other's questions, submitting a few bug reports, and even fixing a few bugs myself.

What???, you think Suse, or Novell, or anybody else just randomy pick packages to "bundle"....I don't think so, EVERY Linux packager/distributor picks the best of what's available based on their experience and other's comments.

Hey, it's free software, it's your choice to use it or not. I am frankly stunned that anyone would whine and complain about a CHOICE THAT THEY HAD MADE????

Hey, if you don't like it, then by all means, CHANGE DISTROS!, or go back to windows, I could care less. But if you have a technical question, just ask, and I am fairly certain that others on the board or myself will take some of their personal, free, time to help out.

It's ridiculous, or a shame (possibly both), that you feel, given all the free software available to you, that you are being taken advantage of somehow....

I for one, am getting tired of these "My Linux Distro is Better Than Yours" rants.

cathal
17th March 2005, 11:15 PM
Well said james

Shadow Skill
17th March 2005, 11:31 PM
I don't mind running the betas quite frankly every OS is in perpetual beta so I really don't see much of a difference between testing and the allegedly stable releases. I mean I still can't perform an upgrade from fc2 to fc3 without it borking the settings beyond repair that wouldn't take three hours. While I think its great that redhat is planning to move in on the XP home user crowd when I put on my regular home user hat I can't help but LMAO at the very idea considering the state of installation of software in the entire Linux world not just FC or any other binary distro. It will not be good for Linux when the regular user who is coming from Windows or even Mac [Don't see why anyone using OSX would ever even want Linux personally, but there are people that do nonetheless.] starts seeing errors that essentially translate into "Dependency not found." I have seen that message more times in one year than I have ever seen a dll not found error in seven years of using Windows, until that is fixed and there is a transparent install framework no one should attempt to go after the home user non poweruser market.

blammo
18th March 2005, 01:31 AM
Hey, guess what???
FEDORA IS NOT REDHAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, that's not exactly true. The technical lead and the steering commitee are comprised of Redhat employees. I would think that Redhat's needs take precedence over the community. So indeed, we are all beta testers.

t3gah
18th March 2005, 03:50 AM
James,

Please note the homepage.

fedora.redhat.com

Note also that RH 9 was the last release, then came FC1.

Ford Aerostar....

Ford Windstar....

look that up... is it still a Ford?

From GNOME, check... System Tools and System Settings.

See anything that says, I don't know, uhm...

REDHAT?


Applications > System Tools > Red Hat Network
Applications > System Tools > Red Hat Network Alert Icon
Applications > System Settings > Red Hat Network Configuration

If this isn't RedHat those settings should be

Fedora Core Network
Fedora Core Network Alert Icon
Fedora Core Network Configuration

But they are not? They just did the Ford manuever and changed names and some details. It's still RH though. Look for the redhat directory on your system and tell us all where it is.

sailor
18th March 2005, 05:19 PM
Anyway you slice it ...Fedora is a beta...some versions more stable than others, but always a beta.

james_in_denver
18th March 2005, 06:32 PM
t3gah,

So now you are complaining that RedHat has added some management GUI's to Fedora????

and, OMG, there are RPM's EVERYWHERE in Fedora!!!!! (ROFLMAO)

(You DO use RPM's don't you?, at least occassionally?????). LOL.......

One could just as easily say that we are all testing kernels for our favorite beer drinking, penguin loving, Torvalds himelf.....Or are we testing for Novell, or for Oracle, or for Debian, or for (insert any other distro here)??????

ROFL, yep, RedHat contributes to open source.......shame on them......ROFL.........

fc_jeff
18th March 2005, 08:57 PM
If someone wants to test a beta or release candidate, it is their perogative.

Some do it because they are extremely anxious to check out the latest goodies. Some do it because they want to contribute to the community. Some do it simply because it's fun.

And guess what? Fedora is 100% free. So the price is right. :D

And it turns out that a full release of Fedora Core is typically very stable. I'm currently running FC2, and it runs great. I'll be upgrading to FC4, after it's been officially out for a while. And it's still free.

What I don't understand is why someone would come to this Fedora support forum, and complain about using a beta of FC4. It seems rather pointless to me. If you don't want to use a beta, then don't. If you don't want to use Fedora Core, then don't. There are lot's of alternatives. Go use what you want. Whining gets you nowhere.

MaegRil
18th March 2005, 10:12 PM
Well, my opinion is ....

ever since a certian someone attending university in Helsinki gave the world linux, the world has given back to linux.
It's a communal effort! If nobody ever used or tested linux then I wouldn't be sitting here typing this message on a computer running Fedora Core 3.

OK, Fedora is used for testing by Red Hat.
But it's still a distribution on it's own. And it works for me. And I'm sure it works for others.
Maybe some people use both Fedora and Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Which could mean they may have contributed in making the RHEL they purchased a better RHEL.
And I am actually considering obtaining RHEL for my own use. (I just feel like it)
Gee, do you know what? I think I'd better thank the linux community and all FEDORA users for using and testing all that software and making RHEL a good choice.
And don't forget that the linux community benefits from the things that Red Hat does.

Furthermore, some people like to get their hands on and use/play/tinker with the latest programs and versions possible. It's fun! I know, I used to do it myself, but no longer have enough time to test things properly.

I'm grateful linux is what it is. Whatever the disto, I'm grateful.
And it'd wouldn't be where it is today without people testing.
Thank you Linux Torvalds!

Here's a little something that Linus said in an email dialouge:

"everybody puts in effort into making Linux better, and everybody gets everybody elses effort back. And that's what makes Linux so good: you put in something, and that effort multiplies

t3gah
18th March 2005, 11:04 PM
Also James.... if you open Firefox or konqueror or Epiphany you will note that all sites that are encoded into a FC release all point to RedHat, not "FedoraProject.com".

Also note that there is NO RedHat 10.0, 11, etc.

Funny how the numbers dropped off....

They needed a fresh idea and identity to get them back on track and Fedora is it. Now they, RH, are pulling the same things that made RH go down before the Fedora Project.

But then again, the release notes for FC tell the tale of whom their market is. Same as before, which is why RH 9 was the last.

I wish they would get real and stop going backwards all the time. http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc3/x86/

(this reminds me of bloatware2000 from M$)

james_in_denver
19th March 2005, 12:11 AM
Hmmm,

I don't think you understand RedHat's business model at all.

They target, market, and sell, to business. And I don't care what distribution you download/install, they ALL configure mozilla to point to one of their own web-pages.

Sure, RedHat provides staffing and a LOT of support to Fedora. But don't forget, Fedora is still free.

And as far as RedHat "dying off" after release 9, I don't think so. RHEL 1, RHEL 2, RHEL 3, and now RHEL 4, are all NEW Redhat releases since RedHat 9.

Redhat gets the vast majority of their revenue from support contracts and training. I know that Senior Management sleeps better at night knowing that if something crashes, or the sysadmin that was just hired is a total bozo, that help is only a phone call away.

That is RedHat's business.

You want to buy a license for yourself, so you can call them when you have a problem? Go for it.

Me, I prefer to figure it out on my own, or ask my peers for help. That's what this forum is about. Helping others. It's not a forum for trying to advance an opinion, or for distro bashing.

And by the way, Fedora consists of literally MILLIONS of lines of source code, drawn from HUNDREDS of different people and projects. Frankly, I applaud the individuals who go to the trouble to compile and package it. That is NOT a trivial job. And yet, I still get it for free?

So I do the best I can to pay the community back by helping others.

Flame away sport.

t3gah
19th March 2005, 01:05 AM
Then of course there is the true "tell" that this is RedHat rebadged as Fedora Core and that is during the initial install of FC. There's an option to add a RedHat CD to the install process.

jtang613
19th March 2005, 01:25 AM
Then of course there is the true "tell" that this is RedHat rebadged as Fedora Core and that is during the initial install of FC. There's an option to add a RedHat CD to the install process.
You say that as though Fedora / RH are trying to hide that fact :confused:

Please take a look at: http://fedora.redhat.com/about/ to clear up any misconceptions you may have.

hth,
Jason

MaegRil
19th March 2005, 09:20 AM
t3gah, I think your question

Why would anyone want to beta test FC4 for RedHat?

has been given some valid answers, why are you still going on and on and on ............

Zigzagcom
19th March 2005, 03:34 PM
:) t3gah,
I cannot resist joining this thread because I think that you are going to get stuck between a rock and the rest of the community.
When I think of names like RedHat, Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse, Mandrake or even Microsoft, I am not thinking of a building or some corporate entity, but rather of people that work within or under that namespace. These people create business models for their companies, and these companies will live or die by those decisions. So there is a lot at stake for those that make a livelyhood from their skills and expertise. It is those people that have taken the initiative and developed their vision of an operating system. There also will be others that follow in the very same footsteps, maybe because they are not satisfied with the way a particular distro works.
Maybe someone will develop a different operating system, based on a different architecture...

Anyone that believes to have the skills, time and willingness, can work on code and create what they believe to be the optimal OS. An individual will have to spend a lot of time learning and then implementing this goal. In fact, these individuals may not even be able to complete this task in their lifetime. Try writing a million lines of code, and then consider how many lines are required for your everyday distro. For this very reason, people pool their resources and form companies. Let's also not forget that one expects a small (big) pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. So, these companies, or the shakers and makers in these companies, are not going to just stagnate and stall their visions in order to satisfy legacy requirements, (remember, they live or die by these decisions). Neither is it practical, as one is very much dependant on other segments of the industrial complex. The hardware industry is unlikely to cease innovating and creating new technology.

This brings us full circle back to the original question:

Why would anyone want to beta test FC4 for RedHat?

How many different possible configurations of software/hardware platforms are out there?
How long would it take to test all the possible configurations?
Who could one enlist to help with all these tests?
Will testing provide the community with innovative and stable solutions down the road?
Will beta testing benefit our company?
Will testing ensure compatibility with existing and new hardware?
etc.,etc.
those are some of the reasons and implied answers to the above question.
Your statements seem to be anchored around ethical issues, albeit veiled by concern of usablity and the future of Linux. There is an underlying current, that puts RedHat on par with Microsoft. FC4 is a test release, free for the taking. If it fails, well, that is what "test" implies.
There is no coersion, no "Zwang", and certainly no malicious intent on behalf of RedHat/Fedora (Fedora/RedHat). Yes, RedHat will ultimately benefit from all of this testing, but so will we, you and I.
I personally lack in skills to make profound contributions on a technical level, but if I felt that I could handle a test release, I'd try it and spell out my experiences on this forum.

Also, I welcome your thread, because it made me think about my position on this subject.

Hopefully we will meet in many more threads to come.... :)

Brutal Ben
19th March 2005, 04:02 PM
With all the patches the "normal" Linux user goes through to make their system "stable", I am at a loss why 'anyone' would like or want to beta test a 'test' release of Fedora Core. If it's a 'test' it can't be 'stable' or it would be a 'release'. :confused:

"Because its a lot of fun to try the new and unexplored"

"To boldy go where no one has gone before!!"

jazzer
19th March 2005, 04:35 PM
Basically when a Test release is open to the public, it means they are trying to get something worked out that either they don't have the resources to accomplish on their own to do or they want public opinion. I used to work for Compaq in Engineering Services and the software division would only allow the public to use it when they wanted an answer. Not to say that RH doesn't have the intelligence to get it done persay, but it just shows just how much they rely on the outside world to get things done. For those who say it's for developers? blah. I worked for developers in my travels too. Developer links were secret and required passwd's. Announcements on the home page is inviting the world to beta test for them. For those who say "nay", GNOME is in beta stage on that 'test fc4", which means anyone downloading, burning and using said product wants to be a beta tester.

From what I can read you don't quite understand the whole open source development process. It's not quite the same as closed source proprietary. It's a community driven project, who else is going to beta test it? Linux on the whole is a community driven project. It's for the people that always want the latest and greatest bleeding edge software. Myself, I would do a hell of a lot more beta testing if I had a decent internet connection. I for one enjoy it.... and I think there is other people much like me.... Christ I enjoy slaving over useless python or perl scripts for the hell of it.

Honestly, Fedora doesn't sound like the right distribution for you. If you want the closest you can get to closed development go check out Suse/Novell. Myself, you are barking up the wrong tree when you are *****ing about something you get for free. If you don't like it, either change it (there is ways to get involved) or leave it.

Taubate Travel Photos on Instagram - Laensi-Turunmaa Instagram Photos - Frolovo Travel Photos on Instagram