Fedora Users vs Developers

[superbnerd]

As some of you might know the folks from RedHat that work on Fedora have luanched their own Fedora Community website (http://fcp.homelinux.org/). The admods were aware of this new community site, but as noted by Ug, there wasn't much on the site at the time (http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=26330&highlight=fedora+community+portal). Now its a different story. The site is in full affect and overlaps with the Fedora users' community in more ways than one.

It host a forum. But you may notice that this forum's users are mainly the fedora developers, not just the users like fedoraforum.org. However, normal user can also participate. It is actually in sync with the fedora mailing lists. In addition to its own forum, it syndicates the latest threads from fedoraforum.org! The other section are similar. Their news section corresponds to FedoraNews.org, and their faq corresponds to FedoraFaq.org.

I am not saying that the developers' community is competing with users', but with the slow pace RedHat has in accepting community support and suggestions one might think there is a subtle battle between the two. This battle, if it does exist, seems to be about the user community trying to gain relavance and control in the development of Fedora. All the while, the developers are trying to maintain control in order to protect RedHat's commercial interest. The idea of a battle is not a bad thing as long as no side declares complete victory. It will act as a balancing factor for the two communities. The users will slowy gain more influence in development and RedHat will still be able to use Fedora as a testbed for RHEL.

What do you think about the developes' community and its overlapping of the key sites of the users community? What experiences do you have of interacting with the developers? Do you think RedHat is acknowledging its user community enough, or do you feel they are just using us as bug testers?

[Chas.H]

I recently played in a charity disc golf tournament in Raleigh, NC. One of the sponsors of the tournament was Red Hat. When I turned in my donations I showed a spreadsheet made with Gnumeric. When I mentioned that it was a Gnumeric spreadsheet, the Red Hat rep made himself known and asked if I used Red Hat. When I told him I used FC2, his interest faded a bit like I wasn't what he expected. It was nice that I used FC2 but, I wasn't a real customer. I thought that was interesting. I figured he was in sales instead of development anyway. :rolleyes:

[Samsara]

I've always said that Fedora is RHEL beta. No free lunch, or is there? Debian, Slackware, Gentoo, Arch,...

However, polarising users vs. developers is not helping anyone! Surely, all developers are users. And many users contribute to the devel mailing list. However, I agree with the view that having several forums for the same thing dilutes expertise in an unsavoury manner.

Samsara

[Dog-One]

The site is in full affect and overlaps with the Fedora users' community in more ways than one.When you see something good, why try to reinvent the wheel when you can just copy it?What do you think about the developes' community and its overlapping of the key sites of the users community?I see a group of guys that want a piece of the action.What experiences do you have of interacting with the developers?From the bugzilla side, they're great as long as you speak their language. I offered to take Linus himself to dinner a couple of times but as usual, he was much too busy.Do you think RedHat is acknowledging its user community enough, or do you feel they are just using us as bug testers? My mother taught me to never look a gift horse in the mouth. I'd like to know what you think superbnerd?

[sailor]

The site gets the most of its information from copying others and most of its content is from mailing lists.
As a forum it still has a way to go. The question might be better asked in that forum, then lets see finger pointing.

[superbnerd]

However, polarising users vs. developers is not helping anyone! Sadly, the developers' community is very different from the users'. To try to avoid showing what is already there would be to stick your head in the sand. Surely, all developers are users I would agree with you except that the developers sometimes don't even test the updates they release (happened so many times on FC2), so I am left to assume they don't bother to use the test bed that is Fedora.

I'd like to know what you think superbnerd? I would say what I think, but it would probably get censored, or the admods might ban me again :mad:

The question might be better asked in that forum, then lets see finger pointing. Thats a good idea. I should post this there and compare the responses.

[crackers]

I would agree with you except that the developers sometimes don't even test the updates they release (happened so many times on FC2), so I am left to assume they don't bother to use the test bed that is Fedora.
Do you have proof of this? I don't mean your own problems, I mean documented proof.

I would say what I think, but it would probably get censored, or the admods might ban me again

You can say what you think, as long as you are not abusive, rude, and/or vulgar. But remember: not everyone shares your world-view. Respect for other's viewpoints is important here.

[imdeemvp]

or do you feel they are just using us as bug testers?
By now we know we are testers.....and if we like the distro we have to live with it.

[superbnerd]

By now we know we are testers.....and if we like the distro we have to live with it. I like to think we can become so much more and actually shape our destiny...I meant distro.
But remember: not everyone shares your world-view. Respect for other's viewpoints is important here. Blah blah blah...I haven't disrespected anyone yet. Plus thats off topic. I simply answered a question. I didn't mean to start another holy war with the admods, but yes, I'm back :D
Do you have proof of this? I don't mean your own problems, I mean documented proof. Actually I do have proof. And as for documentation, I have this forum. It would take me a while to actually find the several threads, but anyone who has used FC2 and updated it regularly knows what I am talking about. There were several packages in the released updates that would not install on any system becuase of conflicts. I started threads each time a conflict would arise in order to confirm the problem wasn't just my systems, and then I would file a bug report. A developer replied that they had been busy testing fc3t2, so they didn't get a chance to test it on fc2 before they released it. If you really want proof, I can find all the links for you ;)

[Jman]

A developer replied that they had been busy testing fc3t2, so they didn't get a chance to test it on fc2 before they released it.
All this proves that Red Hat devels are busy, which we already know. From Bugzilla: (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/index.cgi) Engineers have many responsibilities and will get to your defect in due time.

The vast majority of posts at the portal is on the mailing list gateways. And the lists are as official as Fedora communication methods get (http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/).

A major reason of the user/developer split is that only Red Hat employees are able to commit stuff. That will change eventually with the new build system. You can watch these blogs (http://www.fedoraproject.org/people/) and the mailing lists for news about this.

[superbnerd]

All this proves that Red Hat devels are busy, which we already know. If they are so busy that the cannot test update before they release them why don't they just let the community help them or delay releasing the packages until they can test them? Isn't that standard about releasing anything into production? Yes, I know they are finally working on it, but its been about fifteen months (three releases of Fedora since November 2003) of denying the fedora users to have any say in development. How does an company based on FOSS neglect its user base that is eager to help? That doesn't sound like a busy company to me. Does it to you?

While you at, tell us how your experiences with the developers were? Also, understand that I am not against the developers, except for in the "battle" that exist between developer and user. I respect and apreciate them. I just would like to have more of a say in development and direction even if its just on simple things like choosing which packages are included or default (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=105827).

[imdeemvp]

I like to think we can become so much more and actually shape our destiny...I meant distro.
Redhat is in the money making business and the goal is to make profit and as long there are people like us willing to try the distro they will not change their stand.

[Ug]

Blah blah blah...I haven't disrespected anyone yet. Plus thats off topic. I simply answered a question. I didn't mean to start another holy war with the admods, but yes, I'm back :DI'd like to think that you can keep your cool round here, and I would like to see less attitude. As you may well remember we don't have to put up with anything snide from you.
Actually I do have proof.I would love to know what proof this is. Occasionally we don't see eye to eye with the Fedora Core team, and thats just inevitable. Its a rare occasion but it happens. But I don't think you can substantiate the claim that the FC team are not testing the packages throughly enough. I think they are. After all they're probably testing the packages to the best of their knowledge, then it gets checked by another (I know the testing process involves more than one person). This stops the vast majority of bugs.

Sods law then comes into the equation, with bugs occasionally slipping in due to human error. It's just a fact of life and to claim that the FC team as hard working as they are, are lazy and that they don't check the packages well enough is absurd. If you truly believe this then you should hone up your Linux skills, and get in on the Fedora action as a packager and help to make it different. Thats what being part of this open community is about - making a difference if you can, rather than just hurling abuse around.

[sailor]

I think the developers testing of software, patches...etc is limited to the different hardware they have available to test it on. My system seems to handle all releases very well, I am not a linux professional, programmer, or even in the computer business, but I seem to have less problems than others. I don't attribute this to my skills but more likely to the computer I am using.

[Chas.H]

My mother taught me to never look a gift horse in the mouth. I'd like to know what you think superbnerd?

That was sort of what I was thinking when I got that "less than warm" reception from the Red Hat rep. So what? I replaced an expensive OS that doesn't work very well with a free one that works very well. I'll be giving no equine dental exams. :)

[superbnerd]

I'd like to think that you can keep your cool round here, and I would like to see less attitude. As you may well remember we don't have to put up with anything snide from you. Again, off topic. You make an awful lot of request, Ug. I offer my community support for free. I suggest you take what you can get ;) I am suprised at your behavior. Often, you would tell me to keep politics and personal feuds out of the public forums and use an alternate means of communication such as email, yet you publicly discuss your personal feud with me here, out in the open...Interesting.
But I don't think you can substantiate the claim that the FC team are not testing the packages throughly enough. Do you remeber when redhat release the 2.6.8.1 kernel even though it broke cdrecord and several other programs (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32117&highlight=update+glibc)? Take Bloodbat's experience (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32117&highlight=update+glibc) for instance, or perhaps this will jog your memory (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22593&highlight=update+dependency). Or maybe this conflict that affected every fc2 user (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22186&highlight=superbnerd+dependency). Need I go on :rolleyes: Thats what being part of this open community is about - making a difference if you can, rather than just hurling abuse around. I agree with you, Ug. We should try to improve Fedora, but the problem is they won't accept our help. If you truly believe this then you should hone up your Linux skills, and get in on the Fedora action as a packager and help to make it different. Sadly, Ug, you missed the whole point of this discussion. I started this discussion becuase the fedora users' support is not accepted by the developers. However, I said earlier that thing are just starting to improve. I had attempted to help, but the only way to get through was to file a bug report. When I filed a suggestion, in the area where you are suppose to request features, there just ignored it as if I didn't ask at all. Perhaps thats becuse they are just so darn busy.