What will ultimately kill Microsoft?

[Hiltonizer]

I'm willing to bet almost 1/2 of Windows XP installations are bootleg... and if they ever succeed in making Windows un-piratable... its sick liscencing costs will drive users elsewhere.

thats my vote.

[darknightuk]

kill microsoft in what respect, as a server O's ? Desktop?
as a server O's i'm sure linux will beat microsoft, as a desktop O's it's gui's and usability is way behind xp etc

[tiberiu]

yes, is true but the security lacks...

I am in a home network with 23 computers where mine is FC3 and my neighbours have just XP (no server)...
guess what... all their computers are dayly infected and they have antiviruses and firewalls! so what? a windows virus is a windows virus! :) Yes, is true the gui's are simple to use but when their computers are freezing u'll forget the gui usabillity... You'll make a restart of XP and so one...

[darknightuk]

tiberiu:granted your average pc user is mother or grandmother(if u get what i mean) if handled and configured correctly windows can be secure and virus/spyware free, if your network has 23 systems infected with viri and/or spyware then u or your system admin/s have done something wrong, when i leave a windows system it does not get infected with anything
as far as stability goes my xp box hasn't ever crashed and currently hasn't been reset for 3 months.

[darknightuk]

grrr..ignore this post

[tiberiu]

it's a home network (age average: about 22) where we have bought XP to send an e-mail or to write a project in word for school, etc. not to become trained against hackers....

anyway you're right but believe me, when more computers are turned on without doing anything... it's XP fun!
:) :) :)

[Jesus-Franco]

I think *most* Windows users dont have a clue about security and they just dont care...

Your average Joe uses windows because they think its mostly used so I'll join in aswell. Or because thats what thier computer shiped with. >.>

I vote UnPiritable, witch is impossible but realisticly judging by my past windows uses I can say that nothing else there might take Windows down. Most Windows users dont really know that thier hardware is better than Windows makes it...and they might never know unless they install a unix system. But I do know that my pc responds a HELL of alot faster now. And it is more stable. Linux for as long as I live. :)

[darknightuk]

I think *most* Windows users dont have a clue about security and they just dont care...

Your average Joe uses windows because they think its mostly used so I'll join in aswell. Or because thats what thier computer shiped with. >.>

I think your being quite insulting *most* windows user now know to install a firewall and antivirus.
I think your average joe will chose something that works rather than find that the software they want needs file xyx.567.87x or is missing patch x345.9.55 or maybe they want to be able to edit their menus or even have the latest hardware work.


I vote UnPiritable, witch is impossible but realisticly judging by my past windows uses I can say that nothing else there might take Windows down. Most Windows users dont really know that thier hardware is better than Windows makes it...and they might never know unless they install a unix system. But I do know that my pc responds a HELL of alot faster now. And it is more stable. Linux for as long as I live. :)

I would vote none of the poll options yet, neither linux or 99% of it's software can touch it windows counterpart yet so unless their is a drastic change of path for the linux community mr gates's $$$ are safe in the bank, most of the poll options are opinion or are no longer true.
i'm yet to see any hardware that linux runs better can u elaborate what exactly are u running that make you linux box run faster and more stable than windows xp?
Don't get me wrong i'd love to see the day when i can use linux all the time i bin Xp but it's not happening yet linux is missing vital components that would make it the desktop O's of choice, and with the attitude of a great deal of the linux community these change ain't gonna happen

[LeAkEd]

I don't know... I'm a IT specialist, so the move to Linux was rather painless (having used it at work and having used Solaris at university), yet quite time consuming to get everything where I wanted it to be. Microsoft products are definitely off my future purchase/use list and more and more people in the enterprise are realizing the exact same thing after having suffered such negative aspects as: vendor lock-in, poor quality software and lack of paid-for technical/software support. It should be noted that these drawbacks also exist for many commercial software products, but I won't mention them here since the OS is the issue discussed. As for the licensing issue... MS and other private software firms make their money off enterprise desktops because:

1) All the computers that employees of the public and private enterprises use require a legal software license for each piece of software that an employee is running;

2) Most enterprises require that the software used by employees come with guaranteed support (usually given with the license);

3) Private software firms voluntarily drop support for specific versions of their software after X (varies) years, thus forcing enterprises to buy a bunch of new licenses for the latest supported version of the same software.

So, the only thing that will bankrupt MS and other vendor-lock-in practising firms will be a change in mentality of the people running these enterprises. They have to wake up and realize THEY are the consumers and THEY have the final word on the services or products they consume. Certain companies have great software and actually listen to what their clients have to say, thus improving the overall quality and features of the software for the entire user base. Microsoft just doesn't happen to really care unless they start getting blasted on the news or unless they start to see their users migrate to other solutions (such as the big IE to FireFox move this summer). Now MS IE comes with a pop-up blocker... Hey, Thunderbird had a spam filter for ages... Now MS Outlook comes with a spam filter... MS doesn't innovate, they react and copy. Btw, until MS IE comes with something like Adblock (my fav Firefox plugin btw), I think Firefox will be here to stay...

I should also note that I will be getting a new mac this year, mostly for ease of use and sheer beauty of the hardware and OS. I like the fact that I can run X applications in it as well and that it's built on FreeBSD. Of course it's more expensive and less (if not) upgradeable than a clone, but I believe the beauty, ease of use and overall quality to be worth the extra price (for what I do anyway).

I switched to Linux completely after having converted all my progs from proprietary to open-source or free and multiplatform (Firefox, Gimp, OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Eclipse...) for a period of about 6 months on MS Windows XP. The final switch was a push-over because of this and the final big push came after a dreadful experience using MS Windows XP SP2. I now use only Fedora Core 3 on my PC (I had Gentoo, but the constant compiles were ruining my upgrade capacity). No more windows partitions. I can do everything I need to do: iPod via gtkPod, digital camera via gThumb, coding via Eclipse (C/C++ and Java). Linux has never deceived me and, for the price (free), it's unbelievable how much it's just a better quality product than the expensive Windows. The only downer so far ATI's slow driver release schedule for X.org, but new drivers are promised by mid-January (as stated by the ATI Linux dev team on this forum: http://www.rage3d.org/board/showthread.php?t=33794067&page=6&pp=30 ).

So, either Linux will get easier to configure and run out of the box (as seems to be the current trend amongst most distributions) or Apple starts to sell cheaper PCs (like the new iMacs) or the average consumer starts to understand more about how computers and OSes work and are configured and maintained or... Microsoft starts a new project from scratch with clean code and a peer-review development process and a built-in antivirus product and higher grade firewall product that are both updated upon first boot (well, we can always dream...). ;o)

Well, sorry I went on a tangent there, but the more you're on the receiving end of Microsoft-like business practises, the more you despise the companies that practise them...

[Myra]

MS will not be killed. That thought is a too bright :) . However, it will certainly decrease in marketshare. But it will stay to exist, just like IBM which once had a monopoly marketshare in PCs in the 80s. However, Linux has a long way to go and I believe Linux in saying that it will take something like 10 years before it can really compete.

Microsoft may become larger in other markets though. I fear Sony will let one slip one day, so that for once the Playstation brand may not be the biggest console in business. :(

[LeAkEd]

Your average Joe uses windows because they think its mostly used so I'll join in aswell.

Ignorance IS THE PROBLEM. I totally agree, most home PC users have no idea there are other OSes availible out there (FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, MAC OS, BeOS...). Take away the consumer's choice and you've got a self-feeding monopoly myth. It's hard to sell something that's free when there are no commercial spots and no one is installing it pre-configured on the PCs... :( Many PC users are also either (or both) young and gamers... And most games aren't ported to MAC or Linux (although some trends are starting to appear, specially on the Linux end thanks to people like Carmack and companies like Nvidia). Again, it's up to us to convince these companies it's worth the extra cost.

[LeAkEd]

Microsoft may become larger in other markets though. I fear Sony will let one slip one day, so that for once the Playstation brand may not be the biggest console in business. :(

Don't forget all the cell-phones, PDAs, micro-computers, smart appliances and so on... That's the whole idea behind .NET... Windows everywhere... Man... can you imagine a "smart home" running on Windows?! Imagine autopilot cars and planes running on Windows... Imagine all those blue screens... Scary world! :p

[kosmosik]

I think *most* Windows users dont have a clue about security and they just dont care...
this is 1000% true :) they don't care and don't wan't to care (well who wants?) but they care about functionality of their machine (or simply lack of as it don't work) and given that not properly maintained Windows machine will die after about 20s in net it is quite a problem - problem is not unsecure system as nobody cares, problem is that it dies in 20s on Net. :)

I vote UnPiritable, witch is impossible but realisticly judging by my past windows uses I can say that nothing else there might take Windows down. Most Windows users dont really know that thier hardware is better than Windows makes it...and they might never know unless they install a unix system. But I do know that my pc responds a HELL of alot faster now. And it is more stable. Linux for as long as I live. :)

1. Linux is not about being better or worse - it is about your freedom, face it - there are loads of areas that Linux simply sucks (CAD, DTP, enterprice management, gaming - shall I go on? I hope it will chatch up sometime but look point 2), but you are free to explore it in areas in which it rules...

2. Linux will also be facing piracy and it is also concern of Linux users - piracy is bad cause is killing the market - don't come here with a bull**** that if software is overpriced somebody is entitled to steal it - without funds (paying for licence) some kind of software can't be built. I am open to se f.e. Corel for Linux and I will to pay for it. but I bet that you will find the same amount of loosers (meaning in percent or something) that will pirate it on Linux as on Windows. this is simply not an platform issue - explanation that somebody has to pirate is bull****... nobody does. (meaning that on Linux you don't have to pirate since everything is free... well not everything - I don't want free (as in beer) stuff, I wan't functional system and I wish to pay for it if it is worth it.

3. hardware is not better on Linux in fact it usualy sucks like anywhere else...

4. MS will not get killed. in fact I am not after killing MS - what I don't like about MS is theirs practices (nonstandard etc.) MS can be forced to lower the prices, to make their software somewhat better (XP SP2 and 2003 Server are not so bad comparing to previous releases), to make they play on competitive basis etc. this will benefit me, killing MS won't benefit nobody and is clearly somehow impossible (to give you a clue - it is biggest software company on in the world with nearly monopolistic position, it can't be killed...)

[owakroeger]

I tend to agree that MS probably won't be 'killed,' so much as continue to self-destruct. Xerox, once the dominant force in copiers allowed greed to supplant wisdom, and now they're struggling just to survive. I cannot speak with authority regarding the decline of the IBM giant, but they seem to have found a way out of their self-inflicted maelstrom, and are positioning themselves for growth, using (Eureka!!!) open-source.
I have built custom pc's for new users, starting them from scratch on FC2 or RedHat9. They all, so far, love the boxes I built for them. There is a giant difference between ignorance and stupidity. Windows users are not stupid just because they use Windows. They achieve that status in other ways. As a matter of fact, I know Linux users who qualify admirably for the 'stupid' label. I've even read some of their posts.
Back to the original hypothesis..... MS will continue to force dominance in the market till the buying public decides that it has had enough. Look what happened to the automobile industry. US automakers were complacent about improving fuel economy and overall reliability till other countries' automakers forced them to wake up or self-destruct. The parallels are striking, in my opinion. Ol' Bill didn't get where he is by ignoring the market he dominates. If MS is watching and paying attention, they will move closer to the center or self-destruct.
So, bottom line, if MS gets 'killed,' it will be by their own hand.

owa

[kosmosik]

(...)
The parallels are striking, in my opinion.
in my opinion these are like quite different cases... Microsoft is not common - it is something ususual - it is not a trend that you can analyze with other common cases. if it would be so there would be no Microsoft. they surely can make money.

Ol' Bill didn't get where he is by ignoring the market he dominates.
he is not to good at speaking about technical stuff - he is not an specialist in things he relates to like securit or other stuff... or he probably has lost contact with reality in this matter but he is for sure a good strategist and manager... don't forgret that this all (IT) is after business after all, and that is something that BG is good in. he was in my town (Warsaw) recently - what striked me that he was not visiting in context of technology or IT sience - he was admired for his business skills - he has given a speech on one of best polish business schools, not some computer sience univerity :) this is the clue...

If MS is watching and paying attention, they will move closer to the center or self-destruct.
they are... :) take a look at some of their technologies - they are not perfect but you won't find something like this on Linux - believe me, people don't go Microsoft because their are stupid, they se value in doing so and it is something attached to it... usualy strings but behind that is also something cool from technology point of view...

So, bottom line, if MS gets 'killed,' it will be by their own hand.
but it wont... something like 20% market share overall (meaning mostly desktop) is as far away like 10 years from now for Linux. and 10 years in general (not only IT) is something that very smart people can't perdict since it is impossible. you have (me also) no clue of what will be happening next year... don't come with 10 year predictions since they are from definition not valid.

[Shadow Skill]

I think aside from ease of use, the most important thing Linux needs to concentrate on is multimedia applications of all kinds, specifically audio playback. [Video playback is actually quite good when you exclude Mplayer.] Rhythmbox[At least the coders know what the hell a tray icon is, Xmms, Zinf [It always crashes for me.] and Mplayer are all examples of how not to make this type of software. This is probably the main thing outside of my current home network constraints that keeps me from really using Linux on my desktop, I can only imagine how many people the current situation keeps away..

[owakroeger]

Well, your points are well founded. However, I still contend that the market will dictate what changes are made, when, and to what extent. True, enough, a car and computer operating systems are different markets. But, when I heard about this operating system which was so much more stable and secure than Windows, and was free, except for time and labor, my reaction was the same as my reaction when I heard my friends and neighbors talking about the fuel economy and overall greater reliability of the 'imported' cars.
I tried one out. I liked it. I bought it. And it was years before I bought another American made auto.
I tried linux. RedHat9, specifically. I liked it. I upgraded to FC2. And it will be years before I buy another MS product.
How is this any different? As we users and advocates of open-source continue to proclaim our profound liking and support of which ever distribution you like, just like the word-of-mouth firestorm which forced US automakers to rethink, the same will happen to MS, et al. The almighty $$, LL, Euro, whatever, will tell the proprietary software makers to rethink. And, they are. That's the reason for all the hullaballoo!
As to MS being killed, if they are watching and paying attention, they will survive by change, or they will die for refusing to change. That is the nature of the market place.

owa

[Jman]

Microsoft will be around for a while. They do have a monopoly on the desktop and have the most popular office suite. Many people already know it, increasing migration costs away from it. They have billions of dollars in assets and spend millions in advertising (http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/FY04/earn_rel_q4_04.mspx). They employ a lot of talented people. They know the right buzzwords to sell to business and government. They have lawyers to defend against antitrust and "intellectual property" issues.

Will other software compete for Microsoft marketshare? Absolutely. Will they go bankrupt? Unlikely.

[Dog-One]

Something no one hit on yet...

If you build a better Linux, a better Solaris, a better Mac OS X, Microsoft really has no choice but to build a better Windows. So in effect, by helping out in this tiny piece of the pie we call Fedora, making it better, it's likely you'll get a better Windows in the future. And everyone retains the freedom of choice in this slow, drawn-out process.

Will Microsoft die? Probably not in the foreseeable future, but they could shoot themselves in the foot and get way behind. It's also possible that something else could pop out of nowhere and really put the hurt on them--it won't be OpenSource that does it, but something that's kept secret and released when it's pure and polished. And it would require some serious financial backing to push its way into the market. I'm optimistic that something is in the works, but only time will tell...

[carbo18]

I'm willing to bet almost 1/2 of Windows XP installations are bootleg...

Probably not since alot of manuafacturer like Dell which are the biggest computer seller world wide only sell their desktop with windows preinstalled. Anyways Microsoft makes most of it's money in the business world, with governments and schools.

I don't think Microsoft will die out soon. They are very aware of the market. There marketing strategy is quite amazing and is actually the department they spend the most on. They make contracts with governments which are actually ready to pay anything for software (tax payer money). Often techies are not in charge of purchasing decision for a lot of companies and therefore the people who are in charge make purchase decisions on maketing info they have recieved and let face it Linux does not have a broad marketing scope.

The other thing is that most people are very afraid of change and have been using windows for years. Therefore do not want to learn a new operating system. Windows first came out when alot of people didn't own computers and as computers became more abundant Microsoft made sure to try and bundle it's operating system with every new computer sold. This practice has continued.

Microsoft in the years since 3D gaming has started has also made sure to try to intice game developers to make games only for it's platform. It also has made many deals with hardware manufacturers, such as ATI, Intel and others. Why do you think so many people have problems with ATI drivers on Linux... Hmm... Could it be... Well maybe... :rolleyes:

Microsoft has also made Office the standard in document publishing. Although Open Office's compatibility is improving with MS Office, there all still alot of problems.

Microsoft has noticed the possible threat of Linux. It has already started to make bad press on Linux. Benchmarking it agains Windows 2003... Althought the results seem a bit fabricated. It also talk about Linux being more expensive to run in the business world. Again questionable... But this all works in it's favor and you don't hear the Linux world fighting back on these issues,

Even though I love Linux and think it is a terrific operating system and try to convert people when I can. I believe that it will not be a mainstream OS for a while yet. There is hope though, but more hardware manufacturers need to get involved. NVidia and AMD have been doing some nice work. I think that Linux might find it's way mostly through small businesses which do not have the money for MS products and the young generation of computer users which I see on these forums, the 14+ years old.

There are some advantages to having a OS with a smaller user base... less viruses :) Same goes for Mac.

There is a possible new interesting development... though. Mac is supposed to release a $500 Mac... I wonder what effect this will have... Windows users will change or will some Linux user change...

My 2 cents...

[Shadow Skill]

The only reason that thing is 500usd is because they decided not to ship it with a monitor. For the price of that thing with a decent monitor I could build a box capable of beating [barely] a g5. They will only attract people who don't know how to shop for computers. Anyone with enough sense to know what parts they need/want will stay the hell away from Apple even at such a price. Personally I think they are late getting into the low end market, if they did this four or five years ago I probably would have a Mac right now.

[imdeemvp]

MS will be around for a while. Big companies depend on windoz for gadgets to work. That includes hospitals, banks, and others. My employer a 6000+ employees upgraded all desktops to xp pro. If it ever changes to linux they will probably go with mandrake which is the most use linux distro and the easiest to install and configure.

[backroger]

Wanna kill MS? Linux should be...

1) User friendly...(make a dummy user understand it easily).
2) The concept of Plug N Play (OEM Support).
3) 90% of Programs that uses MS should be emulated to Linux (for better transition).
4) PC game that runs MS should also run on Linux.
5) Package software (out of the box) run on Linux.

[carbo18]

Shadow_Skill you are probably right about them coming into the market too late... but I guess we'll see...

backrogers I'm not sure I would agree with this...
3) 90% of Programs that uses MS should be emulated to Linux (for better transition).
Emulated software generally does not work well... Did you mean the software should be ported to linux?

[barf]

Personally I doubt if MS will disappear but I think its market share will drop as other OS's (Linux) gain in popularity due to a more knowledgeable market.

Until Linux works out of the box is Plug and Play and can run all the current games then it is unlikely to make a dent in the domestic market where the consumer wants a product that just works (like his/her DVD).

However in a commercial setting where the company already has to employ IT staff to manage the system I can see Linux making serous inroads in the near future as the dollar savings are not insignificant. A sign that perhaps this is already happening is the fact that MS is spending some its dollars on anti Linux advertising.

Personally I'm converting to Linux beacause I'm sick of the cost of upgrading hardware and software every couple of years ( not to forgeting the cost of retraining users ) so I will take this opportunity to thank all of you involved at every level in this wonderful project for giving me a choice. Thank you :cool:

[kosmosik]

Mplayer (developers) are all examples of how not to make this type of software.
OK so maybe you go in and show us how to do it properly (you gonna draw a GUI?: this is not what this is about. anybody can do it). mplayer is just unix multimedia player and it works for me... you don't like it - don't use. along with xine (xinelib), mplayer is probalbly best infrastructure for multimedia on unix - right now sadly not much is being done to mplayer itself, more to ffmpeg libs which... multimedia world now is going in direction of portable devices where you can unplug your multimedia from PC and f.e. go to your grandma and show her photos on her TV using your little gizmo - this is a killer stuff right now. another direction is set top boxes like TiVo, Windows Media Center, MythTV and Freevo - it is something revolutionary. no bloated infrastructure like gstreamer will win here. mplayer can since it does its job decently - it plays multimedia with small footprint and it is its purpose. it is an engine not a player itself (want something like GUI for mplayer or xine? get kplayer or kaffeine - they are quite good and work). so please don't diss developers as you apparently don't know what you are talking... without people after mplayer you probably won't be able to play anything more than mpeg files on your Linux...

also with mplayer you can do stuff that you won't be able to do with other players... like try using vidix with something else :)

This is probably the main thing outside of my current home network constraints that keeps me from really using Linux on my desktop, I can only imagine how many people the current situation keeps away..
what exectly is your problem? I know that some people don't want to read manuals and stuff - you don't need them. go install mplayer, alias movie files to it in Nautilus and just click on the clip... it works. it will play the movie so what is wrong here? you need like controls for media player that take up to 50% of the screen where actually media clip should be displayed? nope I don't need that. just press [F] for fullscreen and enjoy the movie :)

[dickinsd]

last option

1,2
4,5
+6

am I right in thinking that choosing this option would mean that you actualy chose options 4+5 twice?

:p

I don't actually think they will die off, their money making machine is too well fine tuned.

Look at what their doing to the console market - they NEARLY always succeed!

I know thye have made some mistakes in the past - but they have managed to keep going.

I think that in the future, they may not be as powerful as they currently are, or at least their OS percentage wil not be as huge as it is now, but I would find it hard to believe they will eventually be killed off.

If the OS or MS Office market does not continue to be so fruitful for MS, then they will probably make hi-tech fridges or something, they will aways make money - if you have money you can always make more.

if Linux and MAC OS machines where easily available to children now, then in ten years time MS would not have such a massive OS market share. -> But thats another argument/post

Dave

[wct1490]

kill MS? or kill windows only? :rolleyes:
1+2...Security is not a BIG issue in my desktop, someday it will.


I wonder when will that day come.
Just hope for the best...


Linux rules :D

[Woad_Warrior]

i have to agree with kosmosik on his rebuttal of shadows comments concerning mplayer, xmms, etc.
i have never had any issue with mplayer or xmms that wasn't caused by either another app interfering with it (artsd usually) or the idiot behind the keyboard (me). seriously, how many players out there, even in the wintendo world, can play as many formats as mplayer?(especially with the full codec pack) is there even a video codec that mplayer doesn't use? hell, i pounded my head against a wall for over 5 hours one night trying to install an avi player on my sis's windows box for my niece and couldn't get any of them to work. (i think i d/l'ed at and installed at least 8 - 10 different players and several different codec packs. yet i can grab the ltest tarball from the mplayer site, compile it, and watch a video in less than 10 minutes. and what's wrong with xmms? it plays all my audio files, has tons of skins, you can even use alot of winamp skins with it. in fact, my current xmms skin was origionally a winamp skin. (texstar who makes a mandrake clone called PCLinuxos, has a set of several rpms that has an incredibly huge number of skins for xmms, most of which were winamp skins) my best friend has mplayer set up to with a remote control to pipe video to his tv. (my next project). so what exactly is the problem with linux multimedia? i just don't see it.

[Shadow Skill]

Try dealing with files that have multiple audio streams and subtitle streams, there is the problem only an idiot would restrict the switch of those streams which the player supposedly supports, to the command line. Guess what Xine, totem, and VLC all allow access to these streams from the GUI, you question the developers about this and they look at you like you are an idiot in the case of Mplayer...Mplayer is basically the equivalent of windows media player. You want to explain to me how you support a file format and then require the user to break out a CLI just to change the audio and sub streams? Bad design period. VLC plays juat about all of the formats that mplayer does, non argument really. Mplayer suffers from a crippled gui which the devs don't seem to want to fix.





Xmms has really nice ways of freezing and magically jumping to the end of a track after pausing a track, can't say that is good. Oh and lets think about this Xmms allows you to hide the main windows, yet it still shows the thing in the taskbar, which really only clutters things up the damned screen, when you could quite easily really add an option to use global keyboard shortcuts..its called maximum control and I thought this is what Linux was about and yet the marquee players for the OS handle things in such a cumbersome manner I just don't get it. Linux is not in a position to push apps that are so inferior to their Windows counterparts, because it is the relatively small things like this that will make thiis whole thing sink or swim. It really doesn't matter if you never experience files with multiple streams the fact is that the player doesnt make it easy to deal with them. [CLI is not easy for people who don't spend disgusting amounts of time around a computer to learn it, don't bring it up please.] Having a cumbersome interface by comparison to some of the most well known if not most popular players that many are familliar with is not the mark of an excellent product. I am just happy that the video side of Linux is far better.

[kosmosik]

how many players out there, even in the wintendo world, can play as many formats as mplayer?
well I've meant that mplayer is not only player - it sure is CLI based multimedia player and it works. so there is no problem here: 1. works, 2. it is CLI based (hey this is Linux). this is how things look on Linux, they usually work, best of breed is CLI... :) I understand there is a need for a GUI player for common user, but that does not mean that mplayer is bad, it is simple not that thing. personally I've found totem-xine to be great user oriented media player. it works and has nice GUI that blends into GNOME... my friend is using it on her account in my system and she has no problems with it (all she does is click on big icon with movie). so I think totem-xine is good for her, but not for me - I like power that mplayer gives me (I haven't see better/more feature packed/more robust media player)... also mplayer (as I've said) is not just mplayer - it is a suite of tools, codecs, encoders, av/in/out modules etc. - you can accomplish very complicated tasks with it (try playing xvid on 233Mhz P2 machine - that is what I do ;)...

hell, i pounded my head against a wall for over 5 hours one night trying to install an avi player on my sis's windows box for my niece and couldn't get any of them to work.
try videolan client... it is best for Windows... but has little obscure GUI but it works.

[kosmosik]

Try dealing with files that have multiple audio streams and subtitle streams
like DVDs? no problem here.

there is the problem only an idiot would restrict the switch of those streams which the player supposedly supports, to the command line.
I don't use GUI... am I an idiot? understand that mplayer is being made for Linux people that like it. don't like it don't use it. I think you are reffering to mplayer gui - well it sucks, but the restriction I think is not made on purpose. it is just there maybe because nobody really uses mplayer with GUI... but you can always code better GUI for mplayer. it would be like wiser than call developers idiots.

Guess what Xine, totem, and VLC all allow access to these streams from the GUI,
gues what xine totem and vlc (this one probably does) all disallow me to access these streams using framebuffer... what an idiot (irony here) coded it?

you question the developers about this and they look at you like you are an idiot in the case of Mplayer...
because they like coding hardcore stuff more. so what? if you have paid them you can tell them what to do... right now they are coding for fun.

Mplayer is basically the equivalent of windows media player.
nope. mplayer is more like Windows Media (meaning player, encoder, codecs, tools).

You want to explain to me how you support a file format and then require the user to break out a CLI just to change the audio and sub streams?
because they don't care - they build an engine on which anyody can base their GUI. look if you can code GUI right - go do it, if you can code lowlevel stuff like drivers and so on - go code drivers. do whatever fits you best. maybe noone of mplayer developer team likes/can/do codes GUI... and? :)

Bad design period.
bad GUI design - yes. GUI is just frontend - so if you imply that bad GUI means bad design of entire program you are wrong. it is like you've said that XOrg (XServer) is bad because you don't like KDE...

VLC plays juat about all of the formats that mplayer does, non argument really.
yes and it does due to work of mplayer people. and it plays it having bigger footprint on resources... look understand one thing: different people need different things. you need GUI, I need robustness and features, somebody else will need something else and it is quite OK. but it is kind of flat minded to judge some project after your needs. I personally think KDE is bloated and ugly - but this do not makes me to call KDE developers idiots and KDE bad designed - it is just not for me... and I have a choice to use something else.

Mplayer suffers from a crippled gui which the devs don't seem to want to fix.
yes.and? :) it plays media. have you heard of so called "unix way" this means doing exactly one thing but doing it extremely well, so you can glue it with other similar programs that gives you opportunity to do lots of things. OK mplayer does not have a GUI... so what? I don't need GUI, but f.e. with totem or whatever how can I make PNG shot of 200th frameof every my movie? I mean doing batch job.... so see there is a right tool for every job. what makes mplayer unique that it does lots of jobs with multimedia... for average user it probably makes no value but for me it makes a lot.

Xmms has really nice ways of freezing and magically jumping to the end of a track after pausing a track, can't say that is good.
standard administrator response #1: it works on my machine.

(...)

Linux is not in a position to push apps that are so inferior to their Windows counterparts, because it is the relatively small things like this that will make thiis whole thing sink or swim.
nobody is pushing anything on you. right now you are like looking funny dissing developers and knowing everything the best. just stick to what you like and everybody will respect that. but please stop being lame with posting things like this GUI sucks etc. Apache sucks because it has no good GUI? :)

It really doesn't matter if you never experience files with multiple streams the fact is that the player doesnt make it easy to deal with them.
what is hard with typing "mplayer dvd:// -slang pl" anyway?

[CLI is not easy for people who don't spend disgusting amounts of time around a computer to learn it, don't bring it up please.]
I don't mean that CLI is easy or not. maybe it is not but fact that something is not easy does not mean it is bad...

Having a cumbersome interface by comparison to some of the most well known if not most popular players that many are familliar with
give an example ;) WMP? mawahaha ;) it fails to play almost anything.... hmm what else?

[Shadow Skill]

Before I begin moderators I'm going to be very blunt here because I am really getting tired of CLI eliete trash so forgive me on this one:


Winamp and Foobar2000 and Bsplayer I can define global short cut keys for virtually every command available to the player and I never have to take focus off of the window I am currently working in to tend to the player, all I have to do is move my fingers on the keyboard once. I have to alt tab constantly with Xmms....Look at the title of the thread before you say anything else stupid Kos, how can you get real people to use something if you make it totally inconvinient for them to do the things they commonly do on that other system? Guess what if you don't get them to come over and if this OS remains the realm of server admins it will never go to where it actually can go and it will stall. Don't think that putting a smiley face disquises your being a CLI elite moron I haven't forgotten how you insulted that other poster because he decided to not like the OS.


If you want to make a commandline player fine be my guest however if you are going to include a gui to work with the player in your distrobution it should have complete access to all of the features of the player period, there are no exscuses for the kind of arrogance that leads those developers to not listen to the suggestions of their user base by claiming they don't make it etc, take pride in your work damn it don't just let the other half of it languish. I don't want to try and remember the full path to a vid file and /or the stream id's when I am playing a video I want to be able to sit down and enjoy the video. Guess what you have to stop the whole damned vid to change the streams properly, when every other player that exists can do this on the fly...Which do you think makes more sense logically here? You are absolutely not done just because you got the file to load the way it should, you only finished half the job. We are talking about what will kill or at best realistically diminish the current Microsoft dominance over the market, and you will not do it with half complete multimedia apps that so many push as the awnser.


Linux doesn't have to have a default crapware video or audio playback application like windows does. Linux has a chance to begin redefining how things are done in the computer world but in order to really have that opprotunity the non technically inclined have to have access to the system we all love. Pushing people out with lackluster audio/visual apps is going to make sure that Linux stays right where it is in the real world [by real world I mean non server desktop type stuff.] The point of open-source is to bw as open as possible how is closing things off to people in step with being open? Programs nowdays have two components that determine how good they are, one of which is the gui if you or anyone else doesn't understand that please never open your mouth ever again, because you have no concept of what affect presentation has on something. What you are telling me is the wisdom of a fool who doesnt want to really improve anything at all and would prefer to see the great thing we have going stagnate. What is worse is I can see this same fools mentality expressed in products people actually pay for which makes me wonder if the manufacturer is really even serious about getting paid for their work. Linux will never really challenge Microsoft where it really matters if people don't get it through their heads that programs must be as useable as they are powerful. Linux already understands the power aspect of things but it doesn't seem to get the usability part just yet.

[Shadow Skill]

People need to stop buying into the lie that making things graphical means you have to sacrifice power, stability, security, and percision, and the mindset that follows with buying into that lie. I've already got my system setup the way I want, I know how to get around in a CLI to fix most of the stuff when it breaks or when I need to tweak sometthing. But you know I want to sit down fire up [insert audio program here] and not deal with disgusting crashes for no reason, not deal with wierdo pausing related bugs that as far as I know already known to the devs. I plan on doing development of some kind with Linux whether it be C or web development but I see Linux as a hell of alot more than some obscure hacker OS, I see it as the gateway to sound computing principles and general enjoyment that does not invole constant tweaking, and or fighting with the OS. Linux should be striving to become the choice for people seeking to get away from windows or to get into computers for the first time with something of relatively low cost, that is not just for IT people or twelve year old nerds, but for anyone looking to use a computer without breaking the bank. Linux and really any OS is about providing a complete solution, sure it may not be the absolute best in all categories but it should be able to perform very well in all areas and be tweakable towards one or two areas more than another.

[PSG1]

I'm willing to bet almost 1/2 of Windows XP installations are bootleg... and if they ever succeed in making Windows un-piratable... its sick liscencing costs will drive users elsewhere.

thats my vote.
What will kill Windows is going to be DRM (Digital Rights Manager). None of choices have a affect on the Microsoft. Bad security, piracy proofing has been there for some time but people will still buy software because it playes their mp3, mpg or jpeg and all kinda things. with DRM they will not be able to play or view stuff that they have already and you see how quickly they switch. Then again that may be a bad thing for Linux. We may get hammered by RIAA looking to make money on lawsuits again. :(

[imdeemvp]

M$ is an empire...with many servants.....us! We still depend on it for somethings.

[KiwiNZ]

The only thing that will "kill" Microsoft is gross mismanagement and I don't believe that will happen in the foreseeable future. Microsoft will evolve as the industry evolves.

Also there is no need for it to die , they produce very good products. There will be viable competition to MS in the future , but not for a long while in the OS market. The Office suite market will see viable competition much sooner.
Add in apps will see viable competition sooner than any , its already there with Firefox.

The bottom line is , Microsoft is at least 4 years ahead of its competition, and with its huge fiscal reserves it has the fuel to stay there for a very long time .

[chuchII]

seems like everyone else has thrown in their 2 cents so i'll throw in too.
i'm a college student, have had plenty of computer issues in my time. haven't had major issues w/linux yet, am very pleased.

my rents where having issues w/winXP almost 2 years ago now. they are knowledgeable with computers and haven't had issues with viruses prior to my nephew's gaming habits. they got sold on firefox because of popup blocking. after enjoying that for a while they warmed up to the idea of open source software, started using openoffice and what not.
after being infected by 3 back to back worms that made the system crawl they asked me what i could do to completely prevent computing problems, i loaded redhat 9. they were sold after using it for a week and having no issues.

now every comp in my rents house has some form of linux on it.

i don't think it will be any one thing that makes folks switch. i think people have to start to get comfortable with using free (open source) software. there's the crazy throught that with computing, you get what you pay for, but in the case of MS vs. Linux this idea is incorrect.

if people are eased into it and give things a try they'll realise that you can do anything in Linux and will eventually come around to our side.
until then, let the idiots think what they want.

[drunkenmugsy]

yes, is true but the security lacks...

I am in a home network with 23 computers where mine is FC3 and my neighbours have just XP (no server)...
guess what... all their computers are dayly infected and they have antiviruses and firewalls! so what? a windows virus is a windows virus! :)
The only reason you dont see more virii for linux is simply due to market share. If linux had 90% of the PC market it would be the other way around! People would be saying that windows was secure because it had less problems with virii.
Think about it if you wanted to have the highest possible rate of success(infection in this case) would you try to get 3% of 90% or would you try to get 90% of 3%?

[DaBlade]

Their own incompetence... :p

[the_profiler]

The only reason you dont see more virii for linux is simply due to market share. If linux had 90% of the PC market it would be the other way around! People would be saying that windows was secure because it had less problems with virii.
Think about it if you wanted to have the highest possible rate of success(infection in this case) would you try to get 3% of 90% or would you try to get 90% of 3%?
not really.. Wind0ze and Linux obviously had differences on their file/system architecture.. that makes Linux more secure than Wind0ze. Go STFW. IMO, maybe if Linux had most of the market, (or should i say community, instead of market? LOL) then.. I guess, the average computer user is more knowledgeable as compared to having Wind0ze in which you can't customize it in your own way as compared to Linux.. Free and Open Source Software + its Philosophy - and this is what i advocate. :cool:

[foolish]

Microsoft is the IBM of our time. Microsoft won't go down in flames. It will slowly be outpaced by someone new who got something great, but microsoft will be around for ages. My guess, and hope, is that what outpaces microsoft will be open source software.

[dickinsd]

The only reason you dont see more virii for linux is simply due to market share. If linux had 90% of the PC market it would be the other way around! People would be saying that windows was secure because it had less problems with virii.
Think about it if you wanted to have the highest possible rate of success(infection in this case) would you try to get 3% of 90% or would you try to get 90% of 3%?


I got to agree with this statement

Yes the archtecture - if you like - is different - BUT if Linux had the Lions share of the OS market, its security would be tested and breached more often.

I have thought this for a long time - MS software is pretty buggy and somethings - ther are just no excuses for - but when it comes down to it Drunkenmugsy hit the nail on the head - why write a virus for an OS with such a small share of the market?

Supposing you where the sort of person that wanted to have access to a large number of machines so that you could attack a web site (DDOS ??) you wouldn't waste your time trying to write it for the OS with a small share of the OS market would you.

I think ultimately I believe Linux to be more secure than Windows - but if it had a greater share of the market we would be aware of more security problems.

Dave

[Shadow Skill]

Eh, it really isn't the fact that Microsoft has the greater market share, it is indeed a part of the whole situation but I would argue that most of the problems are due to the way Windows chooses to operate. Although it is probably true that if Linux had greater market share it would have more breaches, these breaches wouldn't be nearly as disgusting as some of the breaches that occur with windows simply because there is no line of defense between normal users and any old virus program that happens to want in and requires root access to do its damage.

[the_profiler]

but if that's so.. why are there occurrences of virus/virii on Linux? (although it is very REALLY rare) and why didn't it spread since there are already a lot using Linux? Just like this forum.. :confused:

i guess.. why more viruses/virii on wind0ze? 'coz those virus creators need to enlighten M$ programmers as well as the whole companies' philosophy about their products. Hmm.. just out of the blue... another view that i had.. is.. shouldn't it be that viruses/virii helps to improve M$ by capturing its flaws but unfortunately, those M$ developers/philosophers still refuse to be enlightened.. thus.. who is to blame? LOL LOL LOL :D

[yr2alex]

I'm willing to bet almost 1/2 of Windows XP installations are bootleg... and if they ever succeed in making Windows un-piratable... its sick liscencing costs will drive users elsewhere.

thats my vote.

Yeah what Hiltonizer said....

[Muahdib]

greed.. thats what will kill microsoft if anything..

[pgk3734]

I believe that what will finally harm Microsoft os is when the average computer user becomes more sophisticated and
knowledgeable about computer use. Most people don't even know what an operating system is or does. All they
want is to be able to turn it on and have it do something for them. Bill Gates and company know this and have capitalized on
their ignorance. I say MOST users. There are plenty of whom like the windows os for it's simplicity. One thing is for
certain and that is that a LOT of money has been made by programmers writing stuff to fix windows weekness. Just look
at the plethora of replacement browsers, file managers, etc. There is a replacement for everything but the kernel itself; and that is only because it is propietary. If Linus Torvald (before the s was added) and the open source industry had
done what Bill had done, Linus would have been the richest man in the world. But, of course, he is in another way.
Well done, Linus.
pgk

[Jelly_Roll]

Everyone,

You have to go easy on me but, I really feel that Microsoft will see a decline in the office. But until you can easily move around software installations and basic easy troubleshooting, Linux will never increase it's share of the "Ma and Pa" desktops at home. I can not explain the issues I had to just get my wireless to work. No way will you ever get people to convert to Linux if they need to become a "digerati" in the process. For people who don't mind searching through newsgroups to find others who have had the same issues Linux is a great change from Microsoft. You have to understand I work in the field and I also help people with basic Microsoft issues that on a Linux box would drive them nutts. I am really enjoying Linux but I also see a place for Microsoft.

Well with that said I am sure the hardcore Linux people are going to jump me on this so bring it on.

[Dog-One]

A coordinated, multi prong attack by Linux, Sun, Apple and the rest could drive Microsoft to a point where the investors realize they have rode this horse as far as it will go and begin pulling out. Anything short of that, Microsoft will keep on keeping on.

[roolegion]

I see Microsft as a monolithic structure that is so vast it cannot be fully grasped - much like the Catholic Church. So, despite their many faults and shortcomings and obvious disadvantages, that so many people know it and are tied to it in one way or another, you will probably have them around for awhile yet.

[greatscot]

In my opinion, for what it's worth, MS fell dead the day I started to learn how much more secure, stable and cost-effective Linux was "out-of-the-box". Cost of ownership? The only "costs" in Linux for me have been CD-R's and a new 19" LCD monitor.

To date I have helped 41 people/organisations switch to Linux from Windows and only one of those have kept their Windows install on another machine - due to their employer refusing to switch. Most of these folks say "I thought Linux was text only" or "I thought Linux was hard to use", and that is probably one of the things MS wants: to keep Windows users ignorant of any other OS.

The way I see it, MS is losing marketshare every day, and until they re-think their business strategy, they will continue to lose.

Knowledge is the key... it is freedom... and freedom will, ultimately, win more Windows users over.

Just my 2 cents

[Firewing1]

Hi,
I'm just reading through the posts and I agree completely with the points made by BackRoger:
Wanna kill MS? Linux should be...

1) User friendly...(make a dummy user understand it easily).
2) The concept of Plug N Play (OEM Support).
3) 90% of Programs that uses MS should be emulated to Linux (for better transition).
4) PC game that runs MS should also run on Linux.
5) Package software (out of the box) run on Linux.

Linux needs to have better software support, and to have packaged CDs, so on like Mac and Apple do. They also need a MUCH better GUI, as it is currently usable, if you have a bit of know-how and know how to get your way around in a terminal. Another thing I think is needed in Linux is the cost to own it. It's free. It should stay that way, as this is Linux's main advantage: For about $2 (the CD-R's) you can get better security and have a more stable system running than the $200 XP home.
Firewing1

[awdac]

They also need a MUCH better GUI

I have seen this pretty regularly in this thread. I think the GUIs available with Linux are at least as good as Windows, and better in most cases. I love multiple desktops, which is something I miss sorely when I use a Windows machine. I will admit that I've always heard Mac GUIs are the best, but I haven't touched a Mac since it was a MacPlus. What is it about the GUIs that you guys don't like (besides the mplayer GUI rant, which I've already read)? Which ones are you using? Is it that you don't like the looks, or are features that you use missing or what?

I don't think it's just me and my experiences with Linux either. I set my mother-in-law up with a computer when she came to live with us for a while, and she used it fine to IM, write and print little flyers and newsletters for her church group (with OOo), use the web, and email of course. She didn't find it difficult at all.

[killaweegee]

I'm thinking if linux ever gets in the public school systems and kids grow up starting on linux before ever touching windows, that will put a huge dent in M$.

[seven]

1-6 :]
microsoft gotta improve drasticly in longhorn or something to really compat linux

[NeoGeo]

There is nothing wrong with people wanting computers to be simple. Some people don't have the time to bother with getting video drivers and sound drivers installed. It's not their primary focus... they need the computer to do a job, and that's it.

LINUX and Windows both have their place in society. People don't mind paying for support.

Take the automobile for example. Kit cars are available, and have been available for a long time. Did you build your own kit car when you needed transportation? Do the majroty of people build their own kit car? Do the majority of people even know how to change a flat tire? ... No... that's why there is road side assitence. Just like AAA and car manufacturers continue to make money...so will Microsoft. There's nothing wrong with that... there are different types of people in this world... some that fix their own cars, install their own operating systems... and others that don't.

Just respect that fact... and move on.

My 2 cents.



I believe that what will finally harm Microsoft os is when the average computer user becomes more sophisticated and
knowledgeable about computer use. Most people don't even know what an operating system is or does. All they
want is to be able to turn it on and have it do something for them. Bill Gates and company know this and have capitalized on
their ignorance. I say MOST users. There are plenty of whom like the windows os for it's simplicity. One thing is for
certain and that is that a LOT of money has been made by programmers writing stuff to fix windows weekness. Just look
at the plethora of replacement browsers, file managers, etc. There is a replacement for everything but the kernel itself; and that is only because it is propietary. If Linus Torvald (before the s was added) and the open source industry had
done what Bill had done, Linus would have been the richest man in the world. But, of course, he is in another way.
Well done, Linus.
pgk

[AJB2K3]

Maybe a nuke.
MS are like roaches, it will take a miricle to kill them.

[seven]

Maybe a nuke.
MS are like roaches, it will take a miricle to kill them.

im not so sure.
more and more users are moving to other operating systems every day.
microsoft is starting to lose , muhahaha :)

[sailor]

When software companies start making their applications to run on linux...I think this is alone will do the most to end the reign of Microsoft.....

[asmodanus]

I vote for 1+2. Nobody except the insane ones would pay MS's weird prices. (Not me either!) :)

[owakroeger]

I don't know if MS will ever truly die. They didn't get where they are by being stupid. But, they must adapt to the market as it changes. They can only force the market to go along with them for so long. Eventually, the market will dictate to them what changes must be made.
Here is an interesting article, though.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/SiliconInsider/story?id=88655&page=1

owa

[jblose]

I would love to see the results of this poll without the "All of the above" options. . . LOL!

Cheers,
JB

[bob]

Here's an interesting article about the impending death of MS: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/print?id=508399

Now as to the alternatives - Ease of Use? Security from Viruses & Spamware? Cost? Well, certainly Linspire would seem to be the answer for the beginner, yet it's not making a dent. Frankly, I think that it's just poor marketing involved there. How many users have even heard of it? Personally, I think that Microsoft will be around for many years to come, since they have deep pockets and can afford to advertise anywhere and everywhere, while better OS's operate on shoe-string budgets. Will Longhorn, when it finally comes out, be significantly better than XP? Probably not, but you can bet that after MS gets done hyping it, 75% of the users will switch to it in the first year or so.

Steve Jobs has a better OS in place and a competitive price, now that it's $499 for an entry level machine. But will he snatch more than 5% of the market? Probably not, and he'd be stupid not to concentrate on his I-pod for the core revenue in the near future. I doublt you'll see many ads for cheap Macs, but there are a ton of them for I-pods.

And, the truth is that Linux distros in large have very, very small advertising budgets. The public doesn't generally know we're out here and few even understand the concept of 'alternative operating system'. I agree with the idea of introducing it in the school systems as a solution. If we can get kids to try it and understand it, the next generation may be willing to make the switch.

[JonR]

alot of manuafacturer like Dell which are the biggest computer seller world wide only sell their desktop with windows preinstalled.

I've worked in the IT industry since 1978 and have seen the rise and fall of a few empires.

I think there's of lot of useful comment on this thread about the need for a standard Linux GUI, 100% Plug n Play compatibility, the need for replacements for all the common MS based applications and so forth. All these things need to happen for Linux to be able to compete with MS.
The snag is as carbo18 says. Linux and its apps can and probably will get better and better particularly in the crucial "ease of use/installation/configuration" areas but... while nearly all the new PCs sold "out of the box" come with Windows on board, why should anyone bother to change to Linux? They don't care what OS they are running and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why should they want to wrestle with loading drivers and understanding .tars and .rpms and all that CLI stuff?

Now before all you Linux techies out there (and I count myself as one) start foaming at the mouth about CLIs being easy to use so why do we need GUI etc..? I can tell you:
1. You're right and
2. That's irrelevant.
The average, non-specialist computer user simply doesn't want to know about that sort of hassle. Yes! I know! They should want to! But they don't and no amount of marketing will change that. Why? All they want to do is plug the thing in and use it with the absolute minimum of fuss. MS does this well. Linux not so well (yet).

Here's some recent comments from the Amazon site about some well known Linux distros:
"Hardware support is improved but again if you have bleeding edge hardware best check it's supported. The nice thing is that if it is supported it's all done for you and there's no need for driver CDs or any configuration. If it's not then either you're stuck as I was with a laptop without ATI graphics 3D support (I blame ATI not SuSE for this) and a cheap PC videocamera (no great loss), or you can download drivers like with the Epson printer/scanner I was using."

"... there is still not enough support or software out there to make Linux a suiable alternative to Windows. If you have time, or like a challenge buy it. if you want a home computer go Microsoft, sorry, thats the way it is."

"The box says Flexible automatic installation alongside Windows. I tried it on a brand new laptop running windows XP and had to try three times (completly reinstalling the windows as well as the Linux) before I got it to work. Box says quick convenient internet connection via modem but if you have a winmodem (most modern systems) much more work will be needed before it will work. In my case many hours on google. Rips CDs to Mp3 very slowly, does not play DVDs. Support is poor. Small print on the website excludes support for modems sound system and other basic aspects
However if you persevere there are many good features like the CD burner and plug and play support for digital cameras. Buy and try if you have time to experiment and enjoy a challenge."
These are simply not a acceptable experiences for Joe User.


There are encouraging signs though. I think I remember Mandrake selling pre-loaded Linux systems in France (through Carrefour?) last year. If one of the major hardware vendors was prepared to take this on then their selected distro would have to deal with the installation/configure/management issues in a bullet proof fashion. If they did then MS might start to feel the pinch. But who's going to pay for the cost of checking out hardware & software and providing support for the 100s of people who will inundate the supplier with silly questions as they try to get used to Linux?

I'ts like we used to say at those IBM-paid-for dinners in the 1980s: There's no such thing as a free lunch.

What will kill off MS? Nothing should. The only problem with MS is the lack of significant competition. I'd be happy to see MS continuing to prosper but in a situation where they weren't the only practical option for the ordinary non-techie user. I think Linux can provide that competition but only if a major h/w manufacturer buys in and that will only happen if someone can figure out a way of paying for the distro development and support costs. Realistically, that means you have to sell the distro for more than about 40 dollars. Of course, those of us who enjoy firking about under the bonnet can still download FC and enjoy getting oily fingers. Just don't expect the rest of the world to enjoy that experience.

[Firewing1]

Hi,
I'm just laughing because at post #62, there is a link about ABC news on computers. When I went to the article, there was an ad from Microsoft for their new server software stating that "Switching over to linux can be costly... Stay with Windows Server" Hmmmm. Yup. 0$. Very expensive :p
Firewing1

[ltam]

I am in a home network with 23 computers ...


23 computers? What's your electricity bill like?

;)

[Firewing1]

Well, I think there's a new answer.
What will ultimately kill Microsoft: Bill Gates leaving Microsoft in 2008. I read an article that was provided on Google News (news.google.ca/com) that predicts Microsoft's downfall a few years after he leaves. Welcome, Linux and Mac, to the home-desktop PC :D
Firewing1

[Omega Blue]

I don't think Microsoft will be killed, at least not in a couple of decades. However, it will slowly slip into irrelevance, most likely because it is still clinging to an obsolete business model.

[tomcat]

What will kill Mircosoft? A large mass of educated users. But I guess I won't see that day coming. :rolleyes:

[johannlo]

Omega, gangster-ism will never be an obsolete business model :D

[psyklops]

I would doubt we'd even be around to see the demise of Microsoft...maybe our childrens, childrens children!

Honestly, hardware vendors are only too happy to pre-load an OS if more hardware will be purchased because of that 'software need' (HP are pre-loading Ubuntu on laptops/desktops in some parts of the world). The biggest uptake on latest and greatest hardware in our part of the world is entertainment and games. Microsoft does a great job with Media Centre PC's, Xbox and the like in addition to entertainment and rich multimedia content on standard Windows. What they do well on one platform, they'll leverage on the other and vice-versa...
And even they're a software company they do a great job of allowing hardware vendors to sell their hardware...


Microsoft are also branching out to things like mobile devices and embedded technologies... it'll be very difficult to "just try a different OS"... These devices only talk to other Windows/Microsoft related devices and so on... so You see, they'll be around for many, many, many years...

[Omega Blue]

Microsoft are also branching out to things like mobile devices and embedded technologies... it'll be very difficult to "just try a different OS"... These devices only talk to other Windows/Microsoft related devices and so on...

As a result Windows is doing rather poorly in these new areas. For example, how many mobile phones do you know that use Windows? I don't know any.

For starters, if my embedded OS talks to everybody, but MS's only talks to Windows, my immediately has an advantage right there.

Furthermore, Microsoft cannot leverage its monopoly in the desktop OS market here, so it will have to compete on merit. As everybody knows Windows isn't exactly great.

[Omega Blue]

Omega, gangster-ism will never be an obsolete business model :D

Haha, wise guy :p

I was referring to "software as product" model as opposed to the newer "software as service" model. The latter is what Goggle follows.

[psyklops]

As a result Windows is doing rather poorly in these new areas. For example, how many mobile phones do you know that use Windows? I don't know any.

Windows Mobile 5.0 and Pocket PC. HP iPAQ's, o2 Atoms/XDA's, Palm Treo, Cingular, iMate etc. and all their derivates and the like.


For starters, if my embedded OS talks to everybody, but MS's only talks to Windows, my immediately has an advantage right there.


But what do you want your phone/pda to do? PDA's allow you to become mobile detaching you from your desktop PC. The people that need to be mobile use things like e-mail, appointments, messaging, calendaring, work-group collaboration... unfortunately Microsoft has that market right there. So even if Windows Mobile only ever connects to Windows no problem.


Furthermore, Microsoft cannot leverage its monopoly in the desktop OS market here, so it will have to compete on merit. As everybody knows Windows isn't exactly great.


True, I agree... But how many people out there are technology 'buffs' that want to play? I had a friend try and setup Linux on his work issued laptop... trying to get Evolution to sync with the Exchange server, setting up a virtual machine to run some 'windows' only company tools, drivers for the laptops to get accelerated graphics etc. - took all day - and he's a linux buff... PC's and desktop computing are a means to an end... It's all too hard for your average joe blo...

[Invader02]

What will kill Mircosoft? A large mass of educated users. But I guess I won't see that day coming.

Outside of the computer world, there's no such thing as an educated user.



Furthermore, Microsoft cannot leverage its monopoly in the desktop OS market here, so it will have to compete on merit. As everybody knows Windows isn't exactly great.

The average joe would probably think "oh it's Microsoft, i'm pretty sure it works, especially since it says 'plays for sure'"

[jo3]

I think microsoft wont die in the near future. If they do, BG still have billions of money left where he can venture on doing other projects and make billions more... :D . I think the problem lies with the users. If this world contains only computer knowledgable people, then they can think which OS is secure, safer...etc. Infact we live in a multi community of people who have different mindset. The not-so-computer-techie user will just want an OS that can make their work done and MS are the first true company that provide an OS that attratct them (eg easy to use gui interface). You can't blame MS for that because BG saw a chance, and he took it brilliantly.

Other than Linux should be user-friendly, I think Linux should be advertised more on the media so that other user knows that Linux does exist in this world, there are free OS in this world. You should be surprised if they are people who don't know what Linux is. In my country, not so many people know what Linux is. Why? Not enough advertisement. Example, there are only a few Linux magazines and billions of MS magazines. In my country, I didn't see any Linux advertisement in the TV, while dozens of MS product being aired on TV, papers...etc continually. How can you win people's heart when you don't let other people know what your product is. Just make Linux be more recognised is all that it needs so that normal user knows that Linux exist and hopefully next 10-20 years, when MS have problem... :D , these normal users knows that there are other OS available that they can convert to, which will make them want to try. This, of course, will not make them convert straightly in a short period of time, but at least they have a certain degree of exposure. The hardware, software problem is another problem that should be fixed in order to compete with MS....especially in multimedia.

I really hope that Linux will continue to survive in the future. I am not saying this because I want MS to be killed. Instead I want other people to be computer-knowledgeable, so that they will know that in this IT world, it does not just depend on one software product to do daily work, but instead there are other quality-free software product that can be use also.....

[thugpoet22]

I don't think M$ is going to die anytime soon. But i do believe that the Linux community will grow a great deal in the next few years. More and more people that i talk to seem to know what linux actually is. Or at least heard of it before. I usually always have a copy of knoppix and my thumb drive where ever i go. Linux has always been a nerds play thing. I don know if its a great idea to change linux in such a way that its just like windows or mac os x. I think linux should blaze its own path. Linux isn't really about profit so conforming to the mass majority should be a necessity. I think the grandest necessity is to keep linux super stable and more responsive.

[rappermas]

People will finally get tired of having to warez their appz and pirate their installz.

All the l33t haX0rs will switch.

Lol.

Seriously, it's going to take some doing to take Microsoft down.

[NumberOne]

Plain and simple. [GREED

[teaeml]

I vote for the first "Overpricing".
In my country(China), many many people use M$'s OS only for Playing Game everyday. And i suspect M$'s OS would have a nick name "Game Only OS" after some time in China. Low income groups would think that M$'s OS is too expensive for a game-only environment.
Play in M$'s ~~ Work and Study in others :)

[lyvwyry2k]

Outside of the computer world, there's no such thing as an educated user.




The average joe would probably think "oh it's Microsoft, i'm pretty sure it works, especially since it says 'plays for sure'"
i predict that within the next 5-10 years microsoft will be giving away their OS so that you will buy their office soft ware since that is the only part of their company other than xbox that generates a profit and very soon the public is going to find out what billy boy already knows vista sucks and no matter what they do it will allways suck. its to resource heavy and has security holes even my 13 year old daughter can exploit ive beeen using the beta versions for a year now and you still cannot depend on it as your everyday OS its still nothing more than eye candy that crashes and freezes at the drop of a hot. maybe a uh fedora

[Wangberg]

no no no...all of you have it wrong...

the end of microsoft is going to be john DeLorean style, with gates traffiking large quantities of cocaine laundering money in the development budget for Vista. It wont financially crush the company, but will leave a dent big enough to send panic throughout all the shareholders of the company leading to a microsoft stock crash.

after that everyone will realize that MS is a phony piece of junk and start using linux.

i voted for none those...where is the 'other' option?

[B-Net]

Microsoft will not die. Linux is based on the command line feature, and that for most users is just too much work. But it is much more than that.

The main reason Microsoft looks bad to most people is because of the popular use of its products. Not the fact that it is the most used, but rather the amound of people using it. Hackers or whatever look for the most target. They will not find the large mass in the Linux domain so they do not bother much. Why get 10 people when you can get 10000 people doing the same thing?

Take for example the Internet Explorer and Mozilla battle. Mozilla claims that it is the safest browser, maybe it is for now. But I truly beleive that it is simply because the hackers want the most victims, meaning they will lean towards IE. If you have noticed, as Mozilla's popularity increases, so does the flaws at a faster rate.

In the end, I beleive Microsoft is doing a great job.

[linux_paul]

A buddy stops by to talk about the Mac notebook he recently bought. The first words out of his
mouth are, "Wow! I had no idea computers could work like this." He exclaimed,"...the speed, the
ease of use...no spyware, no viruses"

I bring this up to illistrate two points, people in general are unaware of the alternatives (Mac,
FreeBSD, Linux), and that these alternatives are superior. They simply think the minority cannot
be better. :(

Honestly, I don't think MS will every never die. It will however, slowly loose its grip on
desktop users because 1,2,4,5 and 6 combined.

[B-Net]

A buddy stops by to talk about the Mac notebook he recently bought. The first words out of his
mouth are, "Wow! I had no idea computers could work like this." He exclaimed,"...the speed, the
ease of use...no spyware, no viruses"

I bring this up to illistrate two points, people in general are unaware of the alternatives (Mac,
FreeBSD, Linux), and that these alternatives are superior. They simply think the minority cannot
be better. :(

Honestly, I don't think MS will every never die. It will however, slowly loose its grip on
desktop users because 1,2,4,5 and 6 combined.Mac is in the same situation I describe 2 posts above. If it grows in popularity, flaws will come out as well.

[Coolerthanyou]

Talks about linux but can apply to anything better than windows http://www.theregister.co.uk/security/security_report_windows_vs_linux/

Myth: There's Safety In Small Numbers

Perhaps the most oft-repeated myth regarding Windows vs. Linux security is the claim that Windows has more incidents of viruses, worms, Trojans and other problems because malicious hackers tend to confine their activities to breaking into the software with the largest installed base. This reasoning is applied to defend Windows and Windows applications. Windows dominates the desktop; therefore Windows and Windows applications are the focus of the most attacks, which is why you don't see viruses, worms and Trojans for Linux. While this may be true, at least in part, the intentional implication is not necessarily true: That Linux and Linux applications are no more secure than Windows and Windows applications, but Linux is simply too trifling a target to bother attacking.

This reasoning backfires when one considers that Apache is by far the most popular web server software on the Internet. According to the September 2004 Netcraft web site survey, [1] 68% of web sites run the Apache web server. Only 21% of web sites run Microsoft IIS. If security problems boil down to the simple fact that malicious hackers target the largest installed base, it follows that we should see more worms, viruses, and other malware targeting Apache and the underlying operating systems for Apache than for Windows and IIS. Furthermore, we should see more successful attacks against Apache than against IIS, since the implication of the myth is that the problem is one of numbers, not vulnerabilities.

Yet this is precisely the opposite of what we find, historically. IIS has long been the primary target for worms and other attacks, and these attacks have been largely successful. The Code Red worm that exploited a buffer overrun in an IIS service to gain control of the web servers infected some 300,000 servers, and the number of infections only stopped because the worm was deliberately written to stop spreading. Code Red.A had an even faster rate of infection, although it too self-terminated after three weeks. Another worm, IISWorm, had a limited impact only because the worm was badly written, not because IIS successfully protected itself.

Yes, worms for Apache have been known to exist, such as the Slapper worm. (Slapper actually exploited a known vulnerability in OpenSSL, not Apache). But Apache worms rarely make headlines because they have such a limited range of effect, and are easily eradicated. Target sites were already plugging the known OpenSSL hole. It was also trivially easy to clean and restore infected site with a few commands, and without as much as a reboot, thanks to the modular nature of Linux and UNIX.

Perhaps this is why, according to Netcraft, 47 of the top 50 web sites with the longest running uptime (times between reboots) run Apache. [2] None of the top 50 web sites runs Windows or Microsoft IIS. So if it is true that malicious hackers attack the most numerous software platforms, that raises the question as to why hackers are so successful at breaking into the most popular desktop software and operating system, infect 300,000 IIS servers, but are unable to do similar damage to the most popular web server and its operating systems?

Astute observers who examine the Netcraft web site URL will note that all 50 servers in the Netcraft uptime list are running a form of BSD, mostly BSD/OS. None of them are running Windows, and none of them are running Linux. The longest uptime in the top 50 is 1,768 consecutive days, or almost 5 years.

This appears to make BSD look superior to all operating systems in terms of reliability, but the Netcraft information is unintentionally misleading. Netcraft monitors the uptime of operating systems based on how those operating systems keep track of uptime. Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, and some versions of FreeBSD only record up to 497 days of uptime, after which their uptime counters are reset to zero and start again. So all web sites based on machines running Linux, Solaris, HP-UX and in some cases FreeBSD "appear" to reboot every 497 days even if they run for years. The Netcraft survey can never record a longer uptime than 497 days for any of these operating systems, even if they have been running for years without a reboot, which is why they never appear in the top 50.

That may explain why it is impossible for Linux, Solaris and HP-UX to show up with as impressive numbers of consecutive days of uptime as BSD -- even if these operating systems actually run for years without a reboot. But it does notexplain why Windows is nowhere to be found in the top 50 list. Windows does not reset its uptime counter. Obviously, no Windows-based web site has been able to run long enough without rebooting to rank among the top 50 for uptime.

Given the 497-rollover quirk, it is difficult to compare Linux uptimes vs. Windows uptimes from publicly available Netcraft data. Two data points are statistically insignificant, but they are somewhat telling, given that one of them concerns the Microsoft website. As of September 2004, the average uptime of the Windows web servers that run Microsoft's own web site (www.microsoft.com) is roughly 59 days. The maximum uptime for Windows Server 2003 at the same site is 111 days, and the minimum is 5 days. Compare this to www.linux.com (a sample site that runs on Linux), which has had both an average and maximum uptime of 348 days. Since the average uptime is exactly equal to the maximum uptime, either these servers reached 497 days of uptime and reset to zero 348 days ago, or these servers were first put on-line or rebooted 348 days ago.

The bottom line is that quality, not quantity, is the determining factor when evaluating the number of successful attacks against software.

[linux_paul]

Mac is in the same situation I describe 2 posts above. If it grows in popularity, flaws will come out as well. Of course flaws will show up, as with any OS. But given the choice of running an OS built on stability and security
or one that is advertised a popular and easy to use, what would you choose?

The bottom line is that quality, not quantity...I believe this was the point I was getting at.

[JN4OldSchool]

Microsoft will not die. Linux is based on the command line feature, and that for most users is just too much work. But it is much more than that.

The main reason Microsoft looks bad to most people is because of the popular use of its products. Not the fact that it is the most used, but rather the amound of people using it. Hackers or whatever look for the most target. They will not find the large mass in the Linux domain so they do not bother much. Why get 10 people when you can get 10000 people doing the same thing?

Take for example the Internet Explorer and Mozilla battle. Mozilla claims that it is the safest browser, maybe it is for now. But I truly beleive that it is simply because the hackers want the most victims, meaning they will lean towards IE. If you have noticed, as Mozilla's popularity increases, so does the flaws at a faster rate.

In the end, I beleive Microsoft is doing a great job.

MS will eventually die. So will linux. Your post is correct but is just a small part of the equation. The fact remains that everything else being equal, Linux is much more secure than Windows. Add to that the fact that Linux hasnt pissed many people off. MS has. I believe that at least some of these hackors are targeting MS just because of the companys policies.

The main reason Microsoft looks bad to most people is because of the popular use of its products.

This is the true heart of the matter. Do you honestly believe this statement? I suppose you see a fair number of "Linux needs to win and rule the world and get more computers than MS" type people in Linux forums. But most of us more mature Linux users really couldnt care less. If you prefer Windows and want to use that then more power to you. No sir, what makes MS look bad to most of us is their unfair and unethical business practices. The railroading vendors and customers. The MS tax. The frivilous lawsuites. The mentality that if you cant beat them you buy them out. Now, I know business is business and it's a dog eat dog world. But MS crosses the line. And more and more people are starting to realize it. This will be MS's downfall. They will end up beating themselves.

[fedora1953]

I started out using a Tandy 286 with a 30 mg HD. I thought I was cooking. In '95 I bought a Gateway loaded with 95b. It still works - a grand-child owns it now. I bought a no-name that I loaded 98 in, and oh boy was that a peice of crap. A few years back I bought a Dell Dimension 4300. It came loaded with ME a 1.6 ghz, 512 mg ram, a 40g HD and an nVidia 64 meg board and a Sound Blaster Live. I upgraded to an nVidia 128 meg and then I upgraded again to an nVidia FX5500. I installed a 120g HD, bought and installed a copy of XP Pro and a DVD so I could play GTA San Andreas at the insistance of my two sons. Yep, I'm a 53 y/o fart who likes to play games. This year I hope to max it out CPU wise to it's 2.8 ghz limit, install another 120g HD and swith to a DVD that I can burn with. I might (I hope) even change out my two 256m ram sticks with two 512m sticks.
I bought a copy of Linspire in June of 2005 because of the original hype about another OS called "Lindows" that would be able to use Windows programs without the Windows OS. That is what they were saying about it back then. Lindows became Linspire and then I bought a copy. I was happy in a non-Windows world for a while until I heard about Ubuntu. I downloaded and tried it and it's OK. I aquired Freespire and then a few others. I really like PCLinux, but I haven't been able to get either of my printers to work - yet.
THEN I downloaded Fedora Core 6 - all 5 CDs worth. I only installed the first two CDs. I tried the printer, son-of-a-gun it worked. It actually worked. It recognised my sound card, as well as my video card. I got my java and my flash (AKA gnash) to work today. Later this week Freespire waves bye bye and its empty space will go to FD 6. When I get my 120g HD, I'll re-install Ubuntu and Freespire and install a few others like Gentoo so I can tackle them.

I know for fact that quite a few people do NOT know anything about security. I've personally talked to quite a few people who have never replaced / upgraded their anti-virus programs after they had expired. It's not because people are stupid, it's because quite a few people who have one do not understand anything about them. If they have problems, they call a friend over or take it to a shop. I've helped friends clean out worms and viruses and trojans - Oh my! ...and loads of spyware.
Now I only use Windows XP for playing games. I have switched exclusively to Linux for the Internet. Fedora Core 6 has won my little contest for that honor. I'm happy.

In answer to the question, many people will stay with Windows because that is all they know. Many use IE and Outlook only because that's what their computer came with. There are so many different flavors of Linux that most do not want to investigate any of them.

[ibbo]

I dont know what the fuss is all about.

Microsoft will Kill Microsoft. Look at how they annoyed the EU. Now they cannot go about doing anything in Europe without having people breathing down their necks and having to submit report after report stating how they are toeing the line and keeping fair.

MS does not like this and as we see it continues to mess around with the UE, who in turn are messing back.

So its plain MS will kill itself. It would have been coming around a little sooner had American law done what European law did and impossed stringent controls on MS to prevent unfair practice.

But hey money talks and tahts now history

ibbo

[johannlo]

I hate M$ as much as the next linux user but its forced down my throat at work and to be honest, there are lots of tasks that can be easier on M$, especially in an existing M$ environment (i.e. 99% of workplaces and corresponding IT infrastructure).

M$ will go when most workplaces aren't running windows and the unholy trinity (server 2003, exchange, active directory), and it seems a heck of alot easier to configure than linux LDAP esp. so that it works seamlessly with your windows desktop and M$ office apps. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert). Of course linux will continue to be strong in the server space but M$'s dominance on desktops is one of the biggest reasons they managed to shoehorn into the server space even when NT was pathetic compared to 'proper unix' systems.

And you have to give them credit, their enterprise stuff can be quite impressive. Not to mention other companies building stuff to run on M$, specialist software that cannot be replaced or ported.

Native driver support, too many things come w/out linux drivers from the manufacturer. Its been a mission getting my shiny new computer working properly!!

Plus over a decade of people getting used to computers in their everyday life - on Microsoft's terms - overcoming this is the biggest single obstacle.

Of course linux will remain strong its traditional areas (backend servers, embedded systems, geek toy from heaven) but theres a long way to go before we kill Microsoft. Which means conquering the desktop, not just on PCs, but on smartphones, embedded systems, web based apps and standards, the LOT.

[daverj]

the righteous hand of a mighty God will strike forth and slay that cursed evil spawn of Satan. Its remains will litter the dungheaps of history while those who are truly chosen, the *nix users of the world, will rejoice with songs of praise.

either that or we will simply meet it after school on the playground and kick its ass.

[giulix]

DRM will kill it, imo.

[B-Net]

I guess only time will tell.

[Contrid]

Vista will surely kill MS.
Face it...really...how long will it take MS to patch Vista? 2...5...10...maybe 15 years? :D

[joe.pelayo]

I also think VISTA will kill MS.
1. It is too exigent.
2. People will get tired of DRM.
3. Apple could release something friendlier for PCs.

[waltreams]

maybe smarta$$ linux users?

http://www.degredo.net/

classic!! :rolleyes: :D

[Contrid]

maybe smarta$$ linux users?

http://www.degredo.net/

classic!! :rolleyes: :D

Wow...that's a classic indeed!!! :D

[Bad2theBone]

I think everything about VIST and the new Office Suite will be the killer. First of all is the pricing of Vista. $499 for the Ultimate which the gamers will need to get since the Home editions are essentially crippled versions and of course the Business Pak is geared up for the office /corporate environment and does not include the software needed to support heavy multimedia usage that gamers require. Also the pricing of the Office paks is also out of line. The pak my wife would need costs about $300. If Gwinnett County (Georgia) were to upgrade their pcs to Vista and Office 2007 in order for my wife a contractor with the Dept of Health to communicate with the county, She has to spend about $1000.00 in software alone. She currently has Win2K which won't upgrade to Vista, so she needs the full version, and she's using Office97. Now add in AntiVirus, FireWall, AntiSpyWare (since the versions she has now won't work on Vista even though we just spent $200 in the last 6 months for them. Then of course ther's always something else you need. Oh did I tell you her PC is over 4years old so that won't work for Vista. Oops another $10000 for new PC, now the old UPS will have to be replaced because the newer PCs come with larger PwrSplys and the old one is rated as a VA650 about a 350 Watt unit. Another $200 down. Thanks Bill! But my prayers may have been answered. It looks like the county may hold off and check into either switching to Linux or Macs all the way.

Oh well enough of my sorrowfull and boring rant. I'm just going to go drown myself in a tubful of Guinness Stout. A pint for all and to all a good pint. :D

[Contrid]

I think everything about VIST and the new Office Suite will be the killer. First of all is the pricing of Vista. $499 for the Ultimate which the gamers will need to get since the Home editions are essentially crippled versions and of course the Business Pak is geared up for the office /corporate environment and does not include the software needed to support heavy multimedia usage that gamers require. Also the pricing of the Office paks is also out of line. The pak my wife would need costs about $300. If Gwinnett County (Georgia) were to upgrade their pcs to Vista and Office 2007 in order for my wife a contractor with the Dept of Health to communicate with the county, She has to spend about $1000.00 in software alone. She currently has Win2K which won't upgrade to Vista, so she needs the full version, and she's using Office97. Now add in AntiVirus, FireWall, AntiSpyWare (since the versions she has now won't work on Vista even though we just spent $200 in the last 6 months for them. Then of course ther's always something else you need. Oh did I tell you her PC is over 4years old so that won't work for Vista. Oops another $10000 for new PC, now the old UPS will have to be replaced because the newer PCs come with larger PwrSplys and the old one is rated as a VA650 about a 350 Watt unit. Another $200 down. Thanks Bill! But my prayers may have been answered. It looks like the county may hold off and check into either switching to Linux or Macs all the way.

Oh well enough of my sorrowfull and boring rant. I'm just going to go drown myself in a tubful of Guinness Stout. A pint for all and to all a good pint. :D

Since when do you need a $10000 computer to run Vista?
Also...I think a 350Watt powersupply will be sufficient for a rather large computer.

[Bad2theBone]

One problem with Vista is all of the encrytption that will be taking place. If your hardware doesn't support the encrytption at that level than the software will have to do it. This will cause the system to choke if you don't have the power. MSOffice 2007 Professional will be installing with full encrytion turned on by default. Turning it off is supposed to be real chore. My wife would not be able to read documents sent from someone in the county system, since also the sftwe will also target which sftwe will even be able to "see" the document. Essentially the friendly computer concept. Office97 is not on the list. Neither is OOo. So this means that at some point I would not be able to modify any of my wifes templates on my own system running FC6 with OOo.

[mwette]

I agree that Vista will provide an opportunity for people to move to other options
We have friends who are not computer experts. They have had their Gateway
WinXP box for three years and are tired of all the problems. They said their
next machine will be an Apple.

On another note, I read an on-line article yesterday (can't remember the site) [EDIT: here (http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/02/08/is-apple-the-new-evil-empire/) ]
in which the author wondered if Apple was going to become the next Microsoft.
While Apple has a better desktop OS, they are extremely protective and to me
they would love to control the market.

[Dan]

What will finnally kill MS? ... Suicide. :cool:

[Bad2theBone]

"While Apple has a better desktop OS, they are extremely protective and to me
they would love to control the market."

I agree with you 100%. I also like what I see with OS X

[Polantaris]

... Suicide. :cool:
And why will they suicide? When the general public realizes that Windows is a whole less reliable and less stable than other OSes out there. Plus, when they realize that an Open Source OS is actually better than a Closed one.

[Bad2theBone]

And why will they suicide? When the general public realizes that Windows is a whole less reliable and less stable than other OSes out there. Plus, when they realize that an Open Source OS is actually better than a Closed one.


I don't think that'll happen. The average user is easily fooled and led to believe that M$ is the "correct" way to go and that OSS is not. They are easily lead around through all the bull errr marketing lingo and convinced that OSS is less secure and harder to use. It's only when enough people wake up and realize that what they have believed to be truth is actually a fantasy or nightmare. ;) :D

[Polantaris]

Right now, but as Linux advances, I'm sure it will get more user friendly, but still keep its ability for adept users. Then, when it gets like that, Microsoft will be screwed. Its just a matter of time.

[teishu]

i think personally, that vista is the worst operating system out and releasing it was a HUGE mistake.. but personally i hate M$.

[meverhagen]

There will be nobody and nothing who will kill miscrosoft. (sorry for the misspelling ...)
A stupid question, why am I trying to reply ?

However our open source applications and also our close source applicitions will more and more be used on the miscrosoft platform.

Since the open source is CROSS PLATFORM and has lots and lots of developers I think the open source will be the winner on all platforms.

[Omega Blue]

Right now, Vista is killing MS

Unlike previous efforts from MS, red flags have been going up all over the place. It appears that the real outlet for this monstrocity is the MS tax...

[JN4OldSchool]

There will be nobody and nothing who will kill miscrosoft. (sorry for the misspelling ...)
A stupid question, why am I trying to reply ?

However our open source applications and also our close source applicitions will more and more be used on the miscrosoft platform.

Since the open source is CROSS PLATFORM and has lots and lots of developers I think the open source will be the winner on all platforms.

Dont you believe that. MS will one day go down. We can only guess when and why but it will happen. Nothing is forever. I have been around long enough that I have seen many changes and trends in my lifetime. MS has really only been a household word since around '95, only just over 10 years. Not really that long. Someone else will eventually talke their place. Will it be Linux? No, I seriously doubt that. But someone eventually will.

[John the train]

I agree JN4. Back in the Cold War days who would have predicted in 1961 that the Berlin Wall wouuldn't last out the century, or who in 1940 would have taken bets on Hitler being finished in 5 years. Reminds m e of a quote, " we don't solve our problems, we outlive them. "

[dubb]

Somebody creates a windows killing virus that wipes out all of microsofts machines.

[Firewing1]

What will ultimately kill Microsoft: I'll give you a hint -- It's 5 letters long and ends in "ista".
Firewing1

[jim]

What will take MS down?

A. My Paintball gun shooting super fast frozen paintballs @ Gates
B. they're own stupidity

[Bad2theBone]

I find it interesting, that a couple of weeks ago I saw an ad by either Fry's Electronics or Micro Center promoting a PC bundled with Vista Business Edition and an option to rollback to XP Pro.