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cscheng
24th November 2004, 07:32 PM
Well, I believe the title is very self-explanatory. :) What were you experiences with previous Fedora versions? What features could be improved or added? In my opinion, Fedora Core is still not close in becoming a 'real' desktop OS.
May be it's because Fedora Core is nothing more than a testing facility for Red Hat. But it is a damn good testing facility! I wouldn't trade this distro for another.
I would like (I think all of us) to see the developers will make an OS that is fully graphical. Of course they are dependent on Gnome, but there are so many things that you can't configure grafically. A real bummer.
So, what is your opinion about Fedora Core. What should Fedora Core 4 look like. What do's and don't would you recommend to the developers?
I hope this time the developers really listens to the needs of the community.

crackers
24th November 2004, 07:48 PM
I hope this time the developers really listens to the needs of the community
You'd have to expect them to read anything posted here - which we don't know if they do or not.

Anyway, a nice GUI for alternatives, having just gone through "yet another learning experience." I'm kinda tempted to write one myself, but I'll have to learn Python and UI stuff first. **sigh**

Psquared
24th November 2004, 08:29 PM
I dunno - I am getting to the point where I kinda like the CLI stuff. You never know if some GUI interface is really doing what its supposed to do unless you look under the hood. :D

I also like the structure of Linux. Open source aside, the fact that you can compile programs yourself makes is what makes the whole thing run. It will be fascinating to see this evolve. It is an entirely different paradigm from Windo$, and though right now it does not seem ready for the average home user who knows what the future will hold.

As for FC4, I would love to see some development in the area of true 3d and man-machine interfacing. (voice and facial recognition for starters) Development of a system that can control household devices and appliances would be another area Linux could go in.

Prometheus
24th November 2004, 08:34 PM
I really hope FC4 has better media support. Media support has steadily gotten better from 1 to 2 and now in 3 (some better, in intitial upgrade felt like a step back, but dunno). Also, weve been saying this for a long time, good GFX drivers. Yeah, theres not a lot that the developers can do about it in the core, but it would be nice if they made some basic, generic ones that will do hardware 3d support. Maybe they could put some pressure on ATI and nVidia? Dunno, we can hope though.

bryancole
24th November 2004, 09:37 PM
Fedora Core is really the sum of it's constituent packages. Most of the things I'd ask for are really requests to the developers of those packages, rather than the Fedora Core developers. Anyway, things I'd like to see:

0) Beagle. The Gnome search-for-file utility is pathetic. You should at least be able to search on mime-type, comments and emblems.
1) Someone please fix SMB Browsing authentication in gnome! It's just embarassing when I try to show FC3 off to my Windows lovin' colleagues and I can't even browse a windows network properly.
2) System-config-LDAP
3) System wide support for LDAP and Kerberos (I mean in *everything*). I never want to log on more than once per session again! Possibly default use of LDAP for use accounts and hosts, instead of /etc/passwd and /etc/hosts (and any other network config information).
4) Widespeard use of Zeroconf. Browsing FTP and WebDav in nautilus is great, but why aren't SSH shares browseable as well? Oh year, why not include all of the Howl utilities (for configuration and browsing DNS-SD) instead of just mDNSResponder?
5) Inclusion of OpenGroupware in Core. OpenGroupware is an excellent groupware server (a great match for MS-Exchange and SharePortal) but needs a bigger community to drive integration with the linux desktop. An OGo-Evolution connector would be great.
6) Fix the compositor-manager in Metacity, so we can actually benefit from all the new goodies in Xorg-6.8, or turn in off by default so we can run xcompmgr without having to recompile Metacity.
7) gDesklets - 'cos floating, semi-transparent clocks matter.
8) An integrated version of OpenOffice *with Fewer bugs* than the standard release version, not more.
9) Make Totem Work. With MPEGs
10) A glorious new System-Config-Packages which is better than synaptic
11) Menu Editing
12) Make Nautilus Scripts easier to discover. Every ****ing time, I have to figure out if scripts go in ~/.gnome/nautilus-scripts, ~/.gnome2/nautilus-script. ~/.nautilus/scripts or somewhere. I know Scripts are an ugly hack but they also work great; they should be easier to discover.
13) A Unified behaviour and shortcuts between nautilus windows and the desktop. I.e. Ctrl-L should bring up a location dialog even without a nautilus window open. The desktop is just another location afterall, so why does it behave different from nautilus windows. Simlarly, the GTK File-dialog should have the same key-bindings as a nautilus window. They're both about finding files, afterall.
14) Emblems on panel icons. I want to be able to drag my locations/folders to the panel, emblems and all
15) Home == Desktop you know it makes sense

Well, I can't think of any more. Actually, what strikes me is how short this list is. FC3 is really a great distribution, built on great parts. And it's getting better fast.

BC

Finalzone
24th November 2004, 09:46 PM
Media support is not a problem. It is the disparity of repositories of media packages that is the problem. I recently find Gstream website (http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/download/fedora.html) that provides all packages that enabled mp3 and other medias support for the default Totem.

Things to be improved:
- Add/Remove package manager: only displays the base installation, not new packages such as Blender. System-installer is a good step that allow users to install individual package without using rpm command via Firefox. Hopefully it will include yum support.
- Up2date: better mirror site management and the possibility for user to choose the mirrors update close to his/her location
- Improved KDE and XFCE desktop: I see that developers are considering to improve that.
- Add Blender 3D

cscheng
24th November 2004, 10:16 PM
As for FC4, I would love to see some development in the area of true 3d and man-machine interfacing. (voice and facial recognition for starters) Development of a system that can control household devices and appliances would be another area Linux could go in.

I'm going to study man-machine interaction next year on university :)

Well, what I would like to see is:
- Improved multimedia support. I couldn't even play a dvd with Totem...
- More focus on Gnome and XFCE (I love simplicity)
- More stability (I prefer stability over bleeding-edge, but Red Hat have other thoughts about that, the best would be combination of both :p)
- More GUIs and TUIs, no more editing in a text file or something...
- Better drag and drop support (quite buggy sometimes)
- Fix that up2date thing!! Or throw in a graphical Yum :p

Lots of other things that don't come directly to my mind...
Most of them as you can see affect Gnome, as I work most of the time graphically. I'll add some other things when it comes to my mind.

Scoob_E
24th November 2004, 11:43 PM
I'ld love to see reiserfs (and maybe some other FS) support in anaconda.

my .02
Scoob

Finalzone
25th November 2004, 12:11 AM
I'ld love to see reiserfs (and maybe some other FS) support in anaconda.

my .02
Scoob

Already included when you do a fresh installation.
On first boot of FC disk 1, type linux reiserfs. You are looking for an expert installation that is beyond normal user knowledge.

Be in mind that reiserfs does not support extended attribute compared to ext3 or other FS.

Bradlis7
25th November 2004, 05:28 AM
- A better FTP client. I'd love to see FileZilla ported to gnome. FileZilla works really great, and it's open source.

- As cscheng said, a YUM gui. That would also replace "Add/Remove Programs" which doesn't work very well in my opinion. It doesn't even say I have gnome installed, but that's what I'm using.

- Better 3D support out of the box for nvidia. Either that, or livna should get an rpm that works.

FC is great, I really like it. I hope my comments have not been too negative, because Fedora is doing great things. I appreciate everyone who has done anything for Fedora and the linux community. :D

Jman
25th November 2004, 07:22 AM
Unified package management. One GUI that not only takes Fedora CDs but also downloads from repositories. Not sure if apt and synaptic apply here.

A solid extras repository so people won't ask to put everything in Core.

Establish packaging procedures so installing rpms is consistently easy.

imdeemvp
25th November 2004, 07:36 AM
Set numlock in gnome
Better multimedia support such as windows mediaplayer or itunes
Better package management what will make fc faster to use
Gui yum

Pegasus
25th November 2004, 11:14 AM
What would you like to see in Fedora Core 4?

Ok, lets resolve the workflow until the system is working in that way i want:
-> Installation went without any problem
-> Multimedia Support needs to be implemented (codecs, mp3 blah blah)
-> FireFox need - sometimes - root access to make modifications (e.g. search engines)
-> Fedora preferes yum (without gui)
-> Mime type handling and file associations is a pain...
-> Up2Date features
-> ...

Now let's analyse these "additional" steps:

Multimedia Support needs to be implemented
We have several law-systems in different countries. Sometimes MP3 etc. is allowed, sometimes not. In addition to this, the codecs to play different multimediafiles: still the same.
Fedora Core Iso's are internationalized. It's not a big deal to connect to i-net and enter "yum install xmms-mp3" for example. Same for codecs: It belongs to your prefered player.
In case of that, we have a "user-dependency" on what sould be used or not.


FireFox need - sometimes - root access to make modifications
The community found solutions for this problem. Also these solutions are not "newbie-friendly". Now we can discuss about the following thing: "Is it a mozilla problem or a fedora problem?" It's a mozilla problem - if these changes where stored in "/home/[username]/.mozilla/firefox/..." this problem wouldn't exist. The same problem would occur, if other distros prefer FireFox as default browser, installed in "/usr/bin..." or similar...


Fedora preferes yum (without gui)
I've seen this discussion very often. So think about the following: It is LINUX. It's the same discussion about "which editor did you prefer?". If you don't like yum - without a gui - use apt/synaptic instead. Synaptic is a GUI which does exactly what a newbie want: resolve dependencies, add/remove packages etc. And it installs from i-net (see Up2Date features also). And, by configuring yum the right way, the "simple" commandline "yum install xy" will work in the same way apt/synaptic does. All answers to configure yum (it's repo files, using prefered repos etc.) are explained in THIS forum. Only thing to do is READING it...


Mime type handling and file associations is a pain...
Also i've written a tutor for this, many ppl aren't interested in it. The question raise again and again: "How do i set application XY as default so i am able to DOUBLECLICK a file?". Again we could ask: "Who the heck is guilty for this pain? Fedora or Gnome?". Fellows, it's Gnome. The problems are known in version 2.8 and will be fixed as soon as possible.
Fedora Core is based on nearly the NEWEST versions of packages. Maybe it's not the "newbie-friendliest" thinking ,but inside this forum we'll find help - and answers. All Linux compilations are based on two things: The possibility to change things ... and the advantage to communicate...


Up2Date features
What is the meaning of this point? I've read some topics about the possibility to:
-> use up2date to install from i-net ( and not from mounted isos and/or cd/dvd )
-> implement a bandwith-test ( yes, it was the topic i've started )
Question: do we need it? Or are we able to use yum to install form i-net and prepare the repos for our need that we don't need the bandwith-test?
We are able to create a text-based (without XWindows) startup and connect to i-net. In case of that, there is no need for a yum GUI to install the system. Its the default workflow to create a LFS - linux from scratch ... based on Fedora Core...


Sure, there might be other problems ( X64 systems, ATI/NVIDIA, soundcards, scanners ... ) but thats the reason why we have the chance to communicate in a forum like this. And help developers by using bugzilla systems.
On the other way round, you can be safe that this topic will be read by fedora developers ... also if they don't answer...
As long as we keep up the good work in a forum like this, FC4 will be "better" than FC3 ... because Fedora Core is FROM the community FOR the community ;)

cscheng
25th November 2004, 03:55 PM
Some interesting things :) I don't know when OpenOffice.org 2.0 will be finished... but they should only fix some bugs in 1.1.2. It's better to focus on customizing the future OOo for the next Fedora.
Something totally different: I really hope that the Gnome developers will provide tools for creating e.g. GTK or Metacity themes. I'm not saying it's impossible to create a theme, but even when the tutorials are discouraging... it's really hard. :(
In general, I want FC4 to be far more graphical thant the current version, and also a lot more stable. It is already quite stable, but some bugs are really annoying... especially the ones with udev... Better integration with Gnome and Project Utopia.

JuanCarlos
25th November 2004, 04:02 PM
I'd like OpenOffice - kprinter interaction. I mean: I'd like to redirect all OpenOffice print jobs to kprinter, and now it seems impossible.

Bradlis7
25th November 2004, 04:59 PM
Mime type handling and file associations is a pain...
Also i've written a tutor for this, many ppl aren't interested in it. The question raise again and again: "How do i set application XY as default so i am able to DOUBLECLICK a file?". Again we could ask: "Who the heck is guilty for this pain? Fedora or Gnome?". Fellows, it's Gnome. The problems are known in version 2.8 and will be fixed as soon as possible.
The new MIME system works 50 times better in my opinion. It still has bugs, and may not be the easiest, but that's something with every new feature of any program. They'll eventually get it to work better.

jtang613
25th November 2004, 05:16 PM
Menu Editing - In gnome and kde... Can't over stress the importance of turning this feature ON.
Stability - A few programs still crash here and there - gnome-panel and nautilus crash a few times a day/
/dev/dsp - I don't know where it went, but I want it back. UT2003/UT2004, Doom3, etc need it for sound.
Yum Gui - Or adopt Synaptic (like most of us already have)
A Fedora Extras DVD - Including InkScape, Blender, QCad, K-3D, Sodipodi, and much, much more.
Documentation - Currently good. More is better

james_in_denver
25th November 2004, 07:34 PM
an xml based "registry" that stores configuration data for all installed packages.

I know that work has started on this at http://sourceforge.net/projects/registry/
but it would be nice to see it implemented SOON!....

Mat
25th November 2004, 07:55 PM
an xml based "registry" that stores configuration data for all installed packages.

hell no!! xml processing is quite slow.. we would end up with the windows situation were a bloated registry slows the whole system down...



Mat

sideways
25th November 2004, 08:03 PM
DirectX9 emulation, then I can ditch windows :)

grnchile
25th November 2004, 08:13 PM
ACPI power management (including suspend and resume) that works "out of the box" on a laptop.

WiFi support for a broader range of chipsets. Better wireless profile management/roaming support would be nice as well.

Having both of these work at the level of that other operating system (or even SuSE 9.2) would be great.

cscheng
25th November 2004, 08:40 PM
Having both of these work at the level of that other operating system (or even SuSE 9.2) would be great.

They should better improve it! Not level it! :p

gabbman
25th November 2004, 08:42 PM
Some day it would be nice to see 'Out of the Box' installs that let default browser be usfull and functional for multimeadia support without all the licensing crap making Linux appear to be less functional then IExplorer.

That's as good a place to start IMHO.

Shadow Skill
25th November 2004, 09:34 PM
Look people the idea of making sure that packages all know where they are is part of the step to end dephell [Please no one try and tell me its gone or so greatly diminished I see it so often when I have to deal with tarballs to install a program or enable a feature of a program that isn't enabled with the rpm if it exists.] I'm not so sure we need a registry but there has to be some method of making sure that any installed program is found irrespective of the installation method.

I'm tired of being punished for owning an ati gfx card [they are better pieces of hardware, I don't want to downgrade.] because of the lack of 3d support, better default drivers would help alot espcially since ATI has yet to make xorg drivers..I hope those come soon.

Please fix the insane menu scheme [in GNOME.]it needs to be grouped better. [I use the run command 90% of the time personally but the menu setup is lame even so.]

I don't mind the missing mp3 support the repositories that have the mp3 and aac packages need to be working as soon as an fc is launched hell it should be working beforehand qute frankly.

But here is my second pet peeve...the ridiculous lack of ntfs support...I really hate needing to wait on Kernel updates because the ntfs driver has not been released. [Iknow I can build my own but it was a pain in the ass now that the far simpler kernel-sourcecode rpm was nixed by the developers.] Just enable the damned ntfs support by default and stop using rhat lame fear of lawsuit exscuse, there is no way in hell Microsoft could ever win that fight, so stop making the users jump through hoops to get things up and running its not like I can format my entire dump drive to ext3 or reiser to appease these people.

My main annoyance with fc has to deal with a hardware bug that may or may not be related to the actual kernel itself..[This bug has already been filed, its been know since at least fc2.] anyway my Keyboard a logictech Mx duo for bluetooth causes my system to hang some times on boot with fc3 and Udev it disables irq 11 right after setting up audio before switching to X for the first time. My mouse becomes unusable at that point and it also manages to not bring up the ethernet port properly, in fact that is where it hangs then I do a ctrl alt delete to reboot and try again. I suspect that it does this becuase my f-keys have dual functions triggered by an f-lock key on the keyboard..I suspect fc doesnt really like this and decides to die when it runs into whatever error it gets.

One last thing fc3 doesnt doesnt seem to know that my itouch keyboard button is there...it seems to detect my other multimedia keys just not that one...I wanted to map firefox to the itouch key and I can't..it'd be nice to see better multimedia key support.

Lets give yum a gui and get rid of up2date, the add remove packages thing needs to be merged with yum [think YaST.] and streamlined. [Better anaconda installer that makes sure KDE doesnt worm its way onto your system just because it needed to satisfy some deps without even telling you.]
Lastly more readily apparent and of course better bluetooth support.

lkennedy
26th November 2004, 02:47 AM
-- Without me having to recompile my kernel.

What is fixed by turning CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION on anyway ?

Also should require GTPPod or MyPod installed, or whatever works most reliably with FC.

taylor65
26th November 2004, 06:38 PM
1 - Menu editing (why do they disable it?)
2 - Partitioning tool during install (like other distributions)
3 - Make it closer to 'vanilla' linux (to ease installation of extra software)
4 - USB 2.0 support
5 - Firewire on by default
6 - Synaptic on install CDs
7 - GPG keys installed for yum
8 - Keep it 100% non-licensed software (#6 can add the rest)
9 - Don't make changes between test3 and stable, just fixes

Finalzone
26th November 2004, 08:33 PM
1 - Menu editing (why do they disable it?)
According to Fedora-list, developers didn't find a way to solve the conflict between menu editing (both Gnome and KDE). Menu editing is considered but not in priority.

2 - Partitioning tool during install (like other distributions)
Actually there is a partionning tool when you choose to manually manage the partition during installation. It is very basic though.

4 - USB 2.0 support
I am glad to let you know FC3 support USB 2.0 on my box. :)

6 - Synaptic on install CDs
Synaptic is third-party AFAIR. Synaptic does not support bi-arch package i.e. it won't run on AMD64 version.

rkl
27th November 2004, 01:58 AM
* Put the "Laptop" configuration option back into anaconda - why on earth was that ever removed?! Also add "X Terminal" (so it will present a chooser and let you log into another LAN machine with a full X session).

* Add a terminal icon on the KDE/Gnome task bar if "Workstation" is selected. I've had to do this on every freaking test/final version of FC there's ever been!

* Trim the services started - the stuff that's run by default is utterly ludicrous - all sorts of stuff that's redundant (e.g. laptop stuff on a desktop or desktop stuff on a server or vice versa).

* Source RPMs on DVD please - if you burn the one and only FC3 DVD, it comes with *no* source RPMs and there's no separate DVD ISO for them - you have to burn 4 CDs to get the FC3 source RPMS...crazy!

* anaconda's Disk Druid is horrible really, especially if you go into the manual partition config screen. It doesn't recognise the OS on each of the partitions (yes, even Fedora Core releases - which it identfies early on in anaconda for possible upgrade purposes - aren't listed in Disk Druid!) and just labels Windows "DOS" in /etc/grub.conf, which is hopeless. And you should be able to resize your NTFS or FAT32 partition and use the freed space for a new partition to install FC on - this is very basic stuff that simply isn't available in Disk Druid.

* Get rid of the second task bar at the top of the screen in FC3's default Gnome desktop - it's surely bad UI since won't you have to keep moving your pointer to the top of the screen and then back to the bottom to do something else and then back up to the top again...ugh! And that default Gnome FC3 background wallpaper is pretty dark and yucky in FC3 - FC2's was vastly superior...

* Remove "hiddenmenu" from /etc/grub.conf - the pretty grub menu is no longer shown by default and the one-liner displayed during boot is naff compared to showing the grub menu.

* Turn off coloured directory listings ("ls", "ll" and other commands) - the colour combos are unreadable if you have the default white background on your terminal. Again, I have to turn this appallingly unreadable default off with every FC release!

* Does everyone click to focus on a window? I certainly don't and most users at work don't either - yet another option I have to switch the annoying default of...

Shadow Skill
27th November 2004, 02:45 AM
The white background is unreadable with the colours? What resolution are you normally working at? I normally just look for the colours to know whether I'm looking at a directory or a file and whether or not it is compressed or has executable rights. The colour coded ls output can be turned off if I am not mistaken, there isn't a reason to turn off something that is actually beneficial by default. I think they should probably just not use the name gnome-terminal make it shorter above all other things; [I use the run command alot.] But an icon would definetly help things for those who are mouse dependant or those not yet familliar with the hotkey for the run command, it's just good UI design anyway. Another thing they should add is the use of the one key you are pretty much guaranteed to have on any full size desktop keyboard..you guessed it the windows start key, who wants to reach across the keyboard when you could have just used the "other" key to bring up the root menu, its really stupid how that key is not used when it is so effective. While we are at it lets go ahead and allow the user to use that particular key in combination with other keys on the keyboard [I haven't been able to do so since I started fiddling with the keyboard shortcuts..it always complains that the windows key is already assigned.] I mean isn't it just possible I might actually like some of the windows shortcut key mappings? Afterall the three most important ones [the opening of the home folder, the run prompt, and the summoning of the root menu.] are mapped out in a much better way than they are by default in Gnome.

The dual bar setup is actually more effecient since the same window that houses your quicklaunch icons and the taskbar are not merged together which helps make sure things are not cluttered very easily especially since one needs a place for thevm windows should one need them. Gnome needs grouping though its an excellent way of cutting back on window clutter in the taskbar.

LaKing
27th November 2004, 12:44 PM
for me personally

- synaptic ... built in
- something like synaptic for drivers
- VGA cards with OpenGL as standard (not with mesa)
- MythTV ... built in
- Xine for HDTV
- mc should be built in always as default, and needs a graphical version too
- wine ... built in

- more stability (even if some PCI hardware fails, OS should run)
more general linux

- DRIVERS... EmagicMT4, &&& soundcards

taylor65
27th November 2004, 02:48 PM
well, menu editing may not be high priority to redhat, but it's high priority to the people that use fedora core.
As for partitioning, what I really meant was a tool to take HD space away from a Windows install to make room for fedora.
I'm glad to hear USB 2.0 works for someone, it must be a particular hardware issue for me.
Synaptic is third party? what do you mean? every single thing on the fedora core disks is third party - redhat didn't write any of it (except for up2date and rpm).

1 - Menu editing (why do they disable it?)
According to Fedora-list, developers didn't find a way to solve the conflict between menu editing (both Gnome and KDE). Menu editing is considered but not in priority.


2 - Partitioning tool during install (like other distributions)
Actually there is a partionning tool when you choose to manually manage the partition during installation. It is very basic though.

4 - USB 2.0 support
I am glad to let you know FC3 support USB 2.0 on my box. :)

6 - Synaptic on install CDs
Synaptic is third-party AFAIR. Synaptic does not support bi-arch package i.e. it won't run on AMD64 version.

foolish
27th November 2004, 05:48 PM
First, let me just explain a bit about some of the features you all seem to want.

1. Multimedia support:
Fedora Core is open source. It can't include patented technologies and still hand it to you for free. DivX, Xvid, mp3, aac, windows media, quicktime and so forth can't be included. Stop asking for it. It won't happen untill the technologies are released as free software, and that my friends, will never happen. Free multimedia formats, such as Ogg Vorbis for sound and Ogg Theora for video, are supported right out of the box. Support for non-free formats will have to be added, by you, after installation.

2. Menu editing
The current menu system isn't good enough, and will have to be replaced sooner or later. A new freedesktop.org specification for menu entries will eventually replace the current solution. Because of this, GNOME and KDE developers with limited time on their hands don't work on menu editing. There is a solution for menu entry in GNOME now, but it's known to create very icky trouble, and as such, it's disabled.
The menu is currently handled by the packages you install, and if you keep your system tidy and only use proper packages, this works fine. To manually edit the menu entry files, see /usr/share/applications/. This won't be fixed untill there's a new menu entry system. If you want to advocate this, start over at freedesktop.org

3. Synaptic in Fedora
When Fedora Core 1 was released, APT for RPM wasn't good at all. It did it's own dependency handling and ignored the built in dep-check of RPM. This is nasty. Because of this, and the brilliance of Seth Vidal, Yum was chosen as the package tool to include. The issues with APT has been sorted out now, but Yum is still the package tool of choice, mainly because Seth Vidal (the maintainer of Yum) is doing so much good work on Yum now that yum thought of as a better choice. Yum is written in python, as is many of the fedora tools we know and love, like the system-config tools. This makes building projects on Yum and including yum in the distro easier. Synaptic is a Graphical User Interface (GUI) for apt. As apt isn't included by default, and most likely won't be, neither will synaptic. As for a graphical front end to yum, that is very much possible. The new yum, 2.2, was designed to make the creation of a GUI easy. Since system-config-packages is in python, and so is yum, and code-reuse is something we a ll love, something based on system-config-packages with yum support and HIG-love might make it into Core 4. I've heard Seth Vidal talk about such a solution.

4. Inclusion of NVIDIA or ATI drivers
Like the multimedia issue, this isn't up to Fedora developers. The drivers are non-free, and as such, they can't be included. The best alternative for this is to make it as easy as possible to install these drivers after installation. http://rpm.livna.org is doing this already, if you think you can help, do so.

5. Inclusion of new software
Most likely new software won't be added to the Core, if new software is added, it's because it replaces something already in there or because it's essential to everyone installing the distro. Fedora-Extras is supposed to handle software you want that is not in the Core. Mono stuff like Beagle won't be included before Red Hat feels comfortable with mono, and that might never happen.




Now here's the stuff I would like to see, and why.

1. Fedora-Extras
This is the most needed thing right now. People are going crazy because they want this application but can't find it. We have too many repositories which may or may not be compatible and it's quite an ordeal just to get something installed. We need a working Extras, with support from the big guys in Fedora packaging community and we need it included in the distro by default. We need the one repository to rule them all, and we need it included in the distro by default. Extras-cds or dvds with extra software of your choice would be very nice too. Support for this would have to go into anaconda or even better, the firstboot utility. The legal issues in Core apply to -Extras as well, so we need a good copy of -Extras to fill the gaps, currently livna.org is doing a great job so they would be my choice.

2. Graphical front-end for package installation
Just like the above, this one is needed because we need people to be able to install new software easily. A graphical tool has been wanted since Red Hat Linux 7.3 and is way over due. Such a front-end should IMO be based on yum, system-config-packages and up2date-gnome (with the applet for package updates). Good integration in the Fedora Desktop is a must.

3. Fedora community resources
We need for Fedora to have a more organized community of users, packagers, developers and more. Fedora is supposed to be a community project, but Red Hat still makes all the decision and do most of the development. We need documentation, we need information about what's going on and we want to be able to contribute easier. Public cvs access is needed, development wiki would be nice and we need for the people in charge of Fedora to talk to the community better.


As for the rest of it, it's just minor problems to me.

Shadow Skill
28th November 2004, 03:01 AM
I think I agree with you on everything except the inclusion of the nvidia/ati gfx card drivers, its really the equivalent of saying you shouldn't include a given printer's drivers because the printer itself is not free, but we are allowed to make drivers for said hardware and distribute them.... I don't see why yum is not run during the initial process to take care of things like this, one could setup anaconda to ask the user if they want various audio file type support with some check boxes and have yum install them..thereby satisfying all requirements. This sort of logic would also apply to ntfs read support which should either be enabled by default in the kernel or some way should be found to allow for reading of the ntfs filesystem without needing a kernel module installed at all no exscuses.

Bradlis7
28th November 2004, 03:14 AM
A better interface and setup for wireless cards. I'd like to be able to use my wireless on my laptop without having to reconfigure my network setup.

Finalzone
28th November 2004, 04:22 AM
This sort of logic would also apply to ntfs read support which should either be enabled by default in the kernel or some way should be found to allow for reading of the ntfs filesystem without needing a kernel module installed at all no exscuses.

I guess the ntfs licensing does not satisfy Red Hat. Don't forget ntfs is originally from Windows NT. To avoid a possible lawsuit by Microsoft using that format, ntfs is not included on Fedora which is a USan Linux OS.

Myra
28th November 2004, 02:49 PM
I agree with foolish on this one. You sir, have a good insight in how Red Hat thinks and the future of Fedora. I think there should be indeed a good graphical frontend to yum which should have the feature to easily add repositories. This way, a newbie only has to add these, and can then browse for the software (and drivers) he thinks he needs, and can then easily try them out and install/uninstall them. This gui yum tool should be tightly integrated with the RHN icon and up2date since it's really confusing at the moment.

I'd like the following things in FC4:
* GCJ native compiled Eclipse (planned)
* Java-Gnome (planned)
* Coaster (hopefully it has finally reached something usable by then)
* Firefox better integrated (bluecurve skin or even better, native widgets)
* Faster boot time (planned)
* JACK 1.0
* Easy way to enable the new X.org eye candy I keep hearing about :)
* The ability to just install using CD1 and the rest from the internet

crackers
28th November 2004, 05:51 PM
except the inclusion of the nvidia/ati gfx card drivers, its really the equivalent of saying you shouldn't include a given printer's drivers because the printer itself is not free, but we are allowed to make drivers for said hardware and distribute them....
Faulty analogy - the printer drivers/specs are open - HP released them and many printer manufacturers publish their specs openly. NVidia and ATI do not openly publish their 3D-acceleration specifications, and the drivers are proprietary and therefore violate the GPL, which governs what may be included in the kernel, including kernel modules.

The 3D-accleration part is the kicker - that's how NVidia and ATI compete, aside from the hardware. That's a very different playing field than printers, where it's the feature set/price point that sets the printers/manufacturers apart. In the graphics card world, both the NVidia and ATI drivers for Linux include a large amount of the same code that's used in the Windows drivers (duh), where their real profit comes from. Consider yourself fortunate that they've even bothered to release Linux drivers - just getting X to run several years ago was in the same boat, especially with the most popular graphics cards of the time (Diamond, if you're curious).

megaprogman
28th November 2004, 07:49 PM
- With the new yum in mind, I would like to see the third party repos make rpms that add in their repo file and a script to import a gpg key. This isnt a hard thing to do manually, but i think it would help newcomers out tremendously. This, of course, has nothing to do with Redhat.

- I would love a howto directory that is installed when the OS is installed. Ive seen other linux distros do this and it has been invaluable.

- Menu editing, of course

- A dialogue in the installer asking the user which services they want on. There are way too many default services running. The idea of sendmail running by default gives me chills.

- A better package selector. That add/remove applications applet is verging on useless. or if the add/remove packages thing does stay, at least some basic dependancy resolution. Also I would like to select a package and see its dependancies and whether those dependancies are installed or not.

Thats pretty much it :)

Shadow Skill
28th November 2004, 08:50 PM
The point wasn't whether the drivers were open or not Crackers, the point was that you are allowed to some extent to go ahead and make drivers for the hardware to begin with. I wouldn't consider it fortunate that they "bothered" since I had to uhhh pay for the hardware, to me its shoddy customer service. If they would make use of yum during the install process this would completely solve the problem and still satisfy liscensing since the drivers are not actually included in the ISO's.

Shadow Skill
28th November 2004, 08:52 PM
Megapro why not just have the howto directory link to these boards....this site is great. :) Definetly and idea worth pursuing.

megaprogman
28th November 2004, 09:58 PM
Well its a possibility and it would definately increase activity on the forum :)

Finalzone
29th November 2004, 12:08 AM
The ability to just install using CD1 and the rest from the internet
It is included on FC3. On CD1 boot, type linux askmethod. You will need to know the repository for installing Fedora.

crackers
29th November 2004, 12:18 AM
The point wasn't whether the drivers were open or not Crackers,
Actually, it is. That's why they're not included in the core release.

the point was that you are allowed to some extent to go ahead and make drivers for the hardware to begin with.
Knock yourself out - to start, you'll have to reverse engineer the chipsets and see what the inputs vs. outputs are. Oh, and watch out for the DMCA while you're at it.

I wouldn't consider it fortunate that they "bothered" since I had to uhhh pay for the hardware, to me its shoddy customer service.
No, it's not - their main income is from Windows users. That's a given. It takes resources (time, money, people, etc.) to build drivers and keep them up to date. If over 95% of their customers are Windows users, that's where the money is and should be spent. The fact that they have gone the next step to supply working drivers to the less than 3% (giving Mac-heads some credit) means they deserve kudos, not bashing.

hornett
29th November 2004, 12:50 AM
The things I'd really love to see are:

- beep media player instead of XMMS
- ability to edit the Gnome 'Applications' menu - easily (drag and drop, Windows style would be nice)
- built in & working program from suspending the system (unless it is included but has eluded me...)

Overall, I'm very happy with it. :)

Shadow Skill
29th November 2004, 01:01 AM
Who said I was bashing them, the whole percentage thing can be quite misleading just because other OS's only supposedly total five percent of the total computer market that does not nessecarily tell us anything about what ATI or Nvidia's customer base looks like in actuality...So let's avoid that no matter how lucrative the use of percentages can be. Also I keep saying there are ways around this that would satisfy the end user and the owner of the driver code, there are really no exscuses for the state of certain types of extra's at this point hell Debian has been doing what I suggested in one form or another for quite some time during the installation process not afterwards. I know the drivers are being made what I am saying is that Fedora should have some way to ensure that packages they cannot include for any reason can be installed during the clean installation process, a clean install should never present the user with something broken upon first boot, as is the case with mp3/aac support and currently for ati users 3d accelleration. There is no need whatsoever to put users through a song and dance routine for this kind of stuff.

Petrohead
29th November 2004, 03:00 AM
I'd like to see the /media dir dropped (very annoying !!). /mnt is where we've always mounted drives, file systems etc., and all apps default to looking there as well .......... Why this most irritating decision was made is beyond me.

Oh,, 'cause I like to spend my time editing files .............................

crackers
29th November 2004, 04:43 AM
the whole percentage thing can be quite misleading just because other OS's only supposedly total five percent of the total computer market that does not nessecarily tell us anything about what ATI or Nvidia's customer base looks like in actuality.
Would you want to put money on that bet? Look at the gaming market. And the actions of NVidia and ATI seem to support my contention. Until the marketplace supplies meaningful figures that the Linux marketplace is starting to garner a lot more share on the desktop, they go where the market goes. That is the simple reality.

what I am saying is that Fedora should have some way to ensure that packages they cannot include for any reason can be installed during the clean installation process
...
There is no need whatsoever to put users through a song and dance routine for this kind of stuff.
I'm not going to explain the legalities of doing so again. You're just going to have to cope with it for the time being.

johnnyq
29th November 2004, 07:36 AM
-More Gui tools Implement all these in a GUI Interface like Mandrake control Center or YAST
-System-Config-LDAP
-System-Config-Samba-Domain-Controller
-System-Config-DNS
-System-config-Remote-Installation-Services
-System-config-FTPD
-System-Config-Dhcpd
-System-Config-Security (Something like mandrake Security)
-System-Config-Firewall (Integrate Firestarter)
-System-Config-VPN
-System-Config-Certificate
-System-Config-Disk-Management
Also Make them all have a CLI, Web(PHP), GTK Interface

-A Windows to Fedora Migration tool, that mounts your Windows Partition, and looks what users you had on windows and makes those users on linux, and copies their documents, sets up their bookmarks, imports their email, sets their background, Migrates aim from windows to GAIM on Linux

-Use Beagle for Searching
-Instead of 4 CDs, cut it down to 2 or 1
-Use ReiserFS4 by default
-System wide support for LDAP w/ SSL Authentication, Make this the default Auth in Server Installs
-Widespeard use of Zeroconf
-Inclusion of a modified OpenExchange Server, like Suse Exchange Server
-Update MySQL to 4
-Fix the compositor-manager in Metacity so it allows shadows, and Tranparency
-new System-Config-Packages which is better than synaptic
-Set numlock in gnome
-Faster Startup
-Start less Services in Personal Desktop
-MAke the UI alot more responsive
-More Integration
-ability to edit the Gnome 'Applications' menu - easily (drag and drop, Windows style would be nice)
-personalize the toolbar a little bit depending on what you pick as
an Installation Method, example Add a terminal icon on the KDE/Gnome tool bar,


-Personalize things alot more, examples

Type of Install
Home Desktop Business Desktop Workstation Server Minimal Server-noX

Add a different Wallpaper for each
Add Different Icons on the toolbar for each example Desktop include Firefox, Thunderbird, Openoffice, and workstation
add Terminal, Firefox, etc..
for Workstation and Server switch Nautilis spatial to old nautlis browsing, etc

imdeemvp
29th November 2004, 07:54 AM
I guess the ntfs licensing does not satisfy Red Hat. Don't forget ntfs is originally from Windows NT. To avoid a possible lawsuit by Microsoft using that format, ntfs is not included on Fedora which is a USan Linux OS
Slackware and mandrake are free and are open source and they include ntfs support of out the box! Why can fedora? We are not using their partition table to install linux so I dont see a possible lawsuit.

At work we use xp pro but the program we use to run the business is based on UNIX so they have to co-exist.

Finalzone
29th November 2004, 09:16 AM
I'd like to see the /media dir dropped (very annoying !!). /mnt is where we've always mounted drives, file systems etc., and all apps default to looking there as well .......... Why this most irritating decision was made is beyond me.

Oh,, 'cause I like to spend my time editing files .............................

I have tested FC3T3 with early udev. Let me tell you that, in a future, you won't need to use mnt. I was impressed that udev+hal automatically mounted all partition including 'vfat'. without the need to manual set the media or partition. It is still in progress (bug issue related to RAID) and may be included on FC4.



-Instead of 4 CDs, cut it down to 2 or 1
That will be defeat the definition of Fedora Core as general purpose OS. You don't need to burn all 4 CDs depending the packages you chose.

-Use ReiserFS4 by default
It won't happen as ext3 is Red Hat/Fedora own partition. ReiserFS4 does not support extended attribute compared to other FS. You can still install FC3 with ReiserFS4 but some programs who use extended attribute will crash.

-Inclusion of a modified OpenExchange Server, like Suse Exchange Server
-Working in progress, possibly on RHEL.

-Update MySQL to 4
Development version already included the latest MySQL (4.17) as it seems to safisty Red Hat policies.

-Fix the compositor-manager in Metacity so it allows shadows, and Tranparency
Possibly work in progress, but an option to enable above feature will be nice as not all users have powerful system to handle them.

-new System-Config-Packages which is better than synaptic
Working in progress


-Faster Startup
Currently in progress

-ability to edit the Gnome 'Applications' menu - easily (drag and drop, Windows style would be nice)
See foolish's post about that issue. Future version of Gnome and KDE will be based on freedesktop.org norms.

cscheng
29th November 2004, 01:58 PM
I think johnnyq is a bit unreasonable. There's absolutely no need for a migration tool. Every OS needs configuration after installation, whether you like it or not. Besides, from what I've experienced, it takes less time to configure my Fedora system, in comparison with the time I need on Windows (drivers, additional software etc.).

Well, summarized, I would be very happy if:
- Fedora Core 4 had the Java Runtime Environment included in the installation. Users experience too much trouble with this.
- Firefox had at least the Java-plugin installed, but disabled by default. So users who need Java only need to enable it in Firefox.
- it comes with more graphical configuration utilities: mime types, menu editing etc.
- 'Project Utopia' will show lots of improvements: better hardware support + configuration. It is still not well integrated in Gnome (some minor bugs).
- Laptops were better supported, so Fedora is more usable in a bussiness environment.
- by that time the X.org will have more (stable) graphical features: transparency, drop shadows, fading windows.
- Fedora won't take so much time to boot everything, but from what I've read this can already become reality in FC3. Just needs some updates.
- there will be a īsmarter' Anaconda. It still installs lots of things I don't need, even with the custom installation.
- FC4 features a stable and well-customized OpenOffice.org 2.0.

I hope I did not forget something. Even if I did, this is still a nice wishlist. :)

macemoneta
29th November 2004, 02:18 PM
Here's an idea for the nVidia, ATI, MP3, DVD player issue...

While the Fedora distribution can't include these items because of the legal/licensing issues already discussed, there is another way. When firstboot runs and sets up post-installation components, it could present the user with a list of add-on components to install (those mentioned above).

In this way, firstboot would act as a wrapper, downloading and running the installations on behalf of the user. As far as end-users are concerned, nVidia and ATI drivers would be installed, DVD and MP3 playback would "just work".

Fedora would not be distributing the software, keeping it "GPL clean". Package licenses could be displayed to the user (like those in the video drivers). The selection of packages (DVD and MP3) players is performed by the user, so liability (which can be noted in the dialog) is the users.

Can anyone see why this would be a problem?

ai_guru
29th November 2004, 04:08 PM
I'd really like to see working RadeonIGP support for DRI/3D acceleration. This was working over a year ago in XFree86 4.3.99 with 2.4.22+ and 2.6.x kernels. The hardware has been around for 2+ years. There's no reason this stuff shouldn't be fully supported by now.

cscheng
29th November 2004, 04:13 PM
Can anyone see why this would be a problem?

This would be a problem, because you need to host these files. RedHat won't do that, and they aren't going to add 3rd-party repo's (unofficial repo's) in Fedora.

yr2alex
29th November 2004, 04:33 PM
Look people the idea of making sure that packages all know where they are is part of the step to end dephell [Please no one try and tell me its gone or so greatly diminished I see it so often when I have to deal with tarballs to install a program or enable a feature of a program that isn't enabled with the rpm if it exists.] I'm not so sure we need a registry but there has to be some method of making sure that any installed program is found irrespective of the installation method.

I know that it probably won't happen but a package management system that would install resolve deps for source pkgs similar to the way yum and apt does for rpm pkgs (Gentoo's Portage hint hint..) for those instances albeit far and few apart when you have to install apps from source.

Lets give yum a gui and get rid of up2date, the add remove packages thing needs to be merged with yum [think YaST.] and streamlined. [Better anaconda installer that makes sure KDE doesnt worm its way onto your system just because it needed to satisfy some deps without even telling you.]
Lastly more readily apparent and of course better bluetooth support.

yum does have a gui - Cobind which can be found here http://cobind.com/yumgui.html but I have found it to be very slow at times...

my 2 cents

megaprogman
29th November 2004, 04:53 PM
Actually Yum being able to handle source files is in the developer's todo list.

Shadow Skill
29th November 2004, 05:08 PM
Here's an idea for the nVidia, ATI, MP3, DVD player issue...

While the Fedora distribution can't include these items because of the legal/licensing issues already discussed, there is another way. When firstboot runs and sets up post-installation components, it could present the user with a list of add-on components to install (those mentioned above).

In this way, firstboot would act as a wrapper, downloading and running the installations on behalf of the user. As far as end-users are concerned, nVidia and ATI drivers would be installed, DVD and MP3 playback would "just work".

Fedora would not be distributing the software, keeping it "GPL clean". Package licenses could be displayed to the user (like those in the video drivers). The selection of packages (DVD and MP3) players is performed by the user, so liability (which can be noted in the dialog) is the users.

Can anyone see why this would be a problem?

There is no problem since redhat proper need not host jack outside of core itself that is where linva and freshrpms [and eventuallly a true extras] come in, if Crackers would just read what I have been trying to tell him this wouldn't be clogging up the thread. :) It wouldn't be too difficult to pull off they could run yum with a wrapper or up2date [it can use yum/apt repos right?] etc. What I am trying to say is that despite the liscensing issues [there isn't one M$ could really win in regards to ntfs unless they wanted to try and claim that they not only own the filesystem itself but they also own the data on them as well which would mean they would actually own some government's data and possibly even data regarding their national security! There is no way even under the idiot lord Bush that they could pull that one off.] there is no need whatsoever for the users to go through this song and dance with ntfs read support especially since you need a new module every kernel upgrade. Just host the things people need [ati drivers (when they finally exist) ntfs read drivers mp3/aac drivers etc. on livna and freshrpms for example..I know they can pipe those things out before launch red hat just needs to communicate with the repos.] and prompt them to download what they want/need on firstboot then nobody will complain and people might even forget that Fedora doesn't include some of the most basic multimedia support by default. [not counting ntfs read here.]

ps. Megapro do you mean src.rpms or tarballs?

yr2alex
29th November 2004, 05:56 PM
Actually Yum being able to handle source files is in the developer's todo list.

Dude when and if they are sucessful at accomplishing this... Whoa they will be no need to go beyond Fedora Core. Awesome!

chip33550336
29th November 2004, 10:46 PM
I would just like one thing :

The ability to upgrade from one Core to the next.

Bradlis7
30th November 2004, 02:12 AM
What I am trying to say is that despite the liscensing issues [there isn't one M$ could really win in regards to ntfs unless they wanted to try and claim that they not only own the filesystem itself but they also own the data on them as well which would mean they would actually own some government's data and possibly even data regarding their national security!
Would this not also mean that mp3 files should be available to the user too? They're on my computer, so why is it wrong for me to play them. They should at least allow the user to play them, if not rip them. Ok, maybe I didn't think this out too much. Can anyone see how this could be right?

Shadow Skill
30th November 2004, 03:10 AM
That is not the same thing, because what is at issue with mp3's is not the codec or the tools with which to decode the codec it is what people USE them for that is at issue here. Its the legality of the specific mp3's you have not the codec itself, so there is a "legitemate argument to be made on the part of the RIAA etc. Of couse logically speaking when Sony makes the tools used to "pirate" music they own the rights to they are not nessecarily loosing money its just that the money is shifting places, so the supposed loss in thier particular case is illusory in nature. NTFS however is a filesystem format and your personal data is contained on it Microsoft cannot argue that because it owns the file system format that you are not allowed to use non microsoft products since they effectively own all the data contained therein; whether they be free or otherwise to read from an ntfs file system; however as with the music industry they can challenge the legality of files contained on said file system like music and movies etc.

inha
30th November 2004, 09:29 AM
Actually Yum being able to handle source files is in the developer's todo list.


ooh! do you know how "portage-like" would it's functionality be then?

megaprogman
30th November 2004, 11:02 AM
No idea

heres the link http://linux.duke.edu/projects/yum/yum-todo.ptml

heres the quote : "work on a yum-source program for dealing with/installing/etc src-rpms including their BuildRequirements"

This is all i know about the situation, I am very excited about it though. :)

Myra
30th November 2004, 01:29 PM
I would just like one thing :

The ability to upgrade from one Core to the next.

Yes! Without touching the iso's of course. :)

pigpen
30th November 2004, 04:39 PM
I'd like to see ALSA software mixing set up by default.

northernpenguin
30th November 2004, 06:44 PM
I use FC3 for my home media center. I'm stuck on VESA drivers for my ATI All-in-Wonder 9700 pro so I'd love it if system-config-display could have TV (instead of a monitor) support.

cscheng
30th November 2004, 09:12 PM
I use FC3 for my home media center. I'm stuck on VESA drivers for my ATI All-in-Wonder 9700 pro so I'd love it if system-config-display could have TV (instead of a monitor) support.

Have you tried GeexBox? http://www.geexbox.org ;)

leasure98
30th November 2004, 10:03 PM
1. Get ACPI working. Would love to get my laptop hibernate/sleep/suspend to work.Hate having to turn on and off everytime I want to use it.
2. Agree with chip....upgrade without re-install.
3. Fix conflicting repositories. Be able to select repos closest to you.
4. Whomever said NTFS folder/file share support...like MEPIS already does.

Bradlis7
1st December 2004, 12:37 AM
1. Get ACPI working. Would love to get my laptop hibernate/sleep/suspend to work.Hate having to turn on and off everytime I want to use it.
I too would love to have hibernate and standby. Is this possibly right now?

Finalzone
1st December 2004, 06:25 AM
I too would love to have hibernate and standby. Is this possibly right now?p
It is related to the kernel. Both hibernate and standly are still experimental AFAIR i.e buggy hence disabled by default.

grnchile
1st December 2004, 06:54 AM
I too would love to have hibernate and standby. Is this possibly right now?

I've been seeing "should work in the next version of the 2.6 kernel" for at least half a dozen versions. I've recently seen claims that ACPI support will be much better with the 2.6.10 kernel, but I fear that it may be best to read this in light of the first sentence.

I've been able to make ACPI suspend/resume mostly work on various versions of FC2, but it's specific to individual laptops, there is usually something that's problematic (Ethernet, WiFi, video, ...) and it breaks every time a new kernel comes out or I do a BIOS upgrade. It's not a fun way to spend time on a machine that you'd like to depend on.

I, too, really, really, really wish that this were reliable. This is far and away the most frustrating aspect of using Linux for me.

Shadow Skill
1st December 2004, 07:41 PM
I never knew standby wasn't working properly, that is a shame.

PLANT
1st December 2004, 08:33 PM
I would like to see ReiserFS4 support and have them fix the problem of not being able to shutdown X with telinit 3 without it hanging.

Shadow Skill
2nd December 2004, 09:27 AM
Plant could you describe the problem in more detail I am curious, I've never heard of or experienced that myself I don't think.

The following is a response to an earlier supposition by Crackers, I happen to think its great ati xorg drivers ARE coming.


Hmm Nvidia ati's number one and perhaps only competitor has Xorg compatible drivers...and I should be oh so grateful to ati finally catching up to the competition........Why am I an owner of an ati product again?

Pss. I am equally displeased with AMD for being late to PCI E, I don't understand how you start a revolution with useful [to more people than ever.] 64 bit processing and just seem to fall asleep with PCI E and let nvidia and intel totally capitalize on it whilst you release some worthless socket motherboard with just normal pci slots WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

Jman
3rd December 2004, 02:07 AM
On the issue of conflicting repositories: this is more something to be worked out between all the different repository managers rather than a new Fedora release. Although more package dependency intelligence in yum and other tools is always useful. This is also a result of the lack of a major official Extras repository.

Uhlix
3rd December 2004, 02:18 AM
would be nice if it turned my laptop off without me doing any mods =)

baz2a
8th December 2004, 09:07 PM
GUI based kernel config. program, one in KDE control center of old was a decent start, but more could be done

Menu Editing - although pretty solid in KDE, would like to see easier modification, ie drag and drop in the menu and not opening the menu editor

Trim the services started - the stuff that's run by default is utterly ludicrous - all sorts of stuff that's redundant (e.g. laptop stuff on a desktop or desktop stuff on a server or vice versa). - for a "desktop" os i agree wholeheartedly

a better selection of icons, window decorations and other pretty little gui decorations, os should have some style not still looking like a throwback to 1980

definitely the return of fedora extras!

overall have had an awesome experience with FC1, 2 and 3 and truely hope the developers keep up the good work and keep tweaking

deviant03
9th December 2004, 01:00 PM
Fast user switching. Also agreed on the power management, I cant get my monitor to shut off automatically.. only able to get it to blank screen.

Sniffer
9th December 2004, 05:18 PM
Well...i'm modest in my requests:

1st - Please no more bugs in Samba......with iptables or something...this give me a headache

2nd - Please arts is good alsa is better...i have no sound in my laptop when i try to install fedora

3rd - No more bugs with USB devices that use 2.0...like my modem...it freeze my system and reset my net connection and it take ages to resolve DNS.

4rd - Some multimedia support from the box would be good too.

In general something THAT WORKS.

Though and with some workarounds and the help of the GREAT community we have here in fedora forum i'm pleased.

LONG LIVE FEDORA AND GNU LINUX WORLD

LINUS THANKS FOR BORNING.

Soko
10th December 2004, 06:52 AM
Netatalk 2.0.1, please. Porting it to Fedora Core 3 would be fantastic, too.

Soko

yuvalaviel
20th December 2004, 08:26 AM
Better Laptop feature support:
1. Suspend to Disk
2. Suspend to RAM
3. CPU frequency control

Currently all these requires recompiling the kernel and installing patches.

obijuan
25th December 2004, 08:23 PM
All these posts are excellent, but I think some of you are forgetting one simple feature that has been overlooked so far. Virus scanning!

I know Linux is much more virus proof than Windows but to ignore antivirus support is a bit foolish. Many hosting companies already include Clam AV in their solution (Ensim/Plesk) and this would be something that really should be supported/enhanced by Red Hat. If for no other reason than the potential to scan the mounted FAT volumes on a network.

Also would definitely appreciate development of a GUI tool to assist during scans.

dwayner
26th December 2004, 11:38 AM
I'd wanna be able to install it on my raid array (nv_raid) so that I can tri-boot Windows XP, XP64 and Fedora4 from the same raid0 array... heres hoping

Woad_Warrior
26th December 2004, 02:47 PM
as far as nvidia/ati drivers are concerned, they really should at the very least allow firstboot to install these drivers from the nvidia/ati website if the user so desires. it would make the users with these cards happy and they wouldn't be distributing the drivers. (although i'm sure if they asked, nvidia or ati would allow the inclusion of their drivers, but since RH wants everything w/ a gpl compaible license that'll never happen.)
what would i like to see? well if they're going to continue with udev, fix the damn thing! because of udev, i've been having probs w/ sound, printers, joysticks, and just about every other peripheral i plug in. now THAT is truely annoying.

obijuan
26th December 2004, 04:36 PM
I would like Redhat to provide a "channel" whereby Nvidia, Broadcom, Sun, Realnetworks, etc, could provide binary-only RPMs for better hardware/software support. It could only work after the initial installation was done, and would be dependent upon the end user agreeing to each license as the software was installed. That way Redhat could keep it's vanilla GPL distribution, but provide us a way to get better use at the end.

Vendors could release upgrades to their channels to a repository, so the system woul d still work w/ Up2date, Yum, etc.

FXRS
26th December 2004, 07:22 PM
Madwifi drivers added to the installed for Ath0.

comsparks
28th December 2004, 03:02 AM
I would like to see the Canon i560 supported. I think I found the source code for it.

raluke
30th December 2004, 02:15 PM
Better Laptop feature support:
1. Suspend to Disk
2. Suspend to RAM
3. CPU frequency control

Currently all these requires recompiling the kernel and installing patches.

I second this motion. I am still trying to get hibernate/sleep to work on my Sony VAIO TR-2A.

Also, how about support for odd widescreen sizes? My laptop has 1280x768. I got it working after Googling, but surely I'm not the only person who's trying to install Fedora on a laptop with an odd screen size.

-Robert

Paloseco
30th December 2004, 02:51 PM
A better multimedia enviroment. Totem and other real suck(). Progs like xine or mplayer are great, and a good file manager under desktop enviroment (i actually use konqueror but is lack of possibilities).

Also is needed the possibility of changing the settings of the systems in a more efficient way under desktop, not only setting screensaver or other stuff, things like configuring fstab and grub.conf will be a good idea (not only under konsola), and a more options for configuring the grub when installing fedora (grub.conf for example).

it seems as if it wanted to make idiot to the user. Please, donīt make Linux something more windows like, it is becoming a low quality software.

cardinal II
30th December 2004, 04:30 PM
Just off the top of my head;

1: Enable 'a num lock on by default option' or at least honour the bios settings.
2: Change the default panel config. Two panels eats up too much desktop space.

TestingLinux
30th December 2004, 10:58 PM
Allow users to setup their own default session - KDE, GNOM, or MASS (Monkey's Ass), instead of having to manually setting each time before login.

inoxllor
1st January 2005, 11:48 PM
Hi.

I am still a newbie with a fresh Fedora 3 instalation, so excuse me if I am saying something foolish.

I think that Fedora 4 could import some positive aspects of windowsXP, in general, the user-friendly add/remove hardware/software wizards.

The ideia is to reduce the hours spent in forums searching for answers to our problems.

So It could be even more user friendly by:
- improving the add/remove packages & apps
- improving the control center for KDE and add a similiar feature for GNOME with an hardware browser with the option to change/update the drivers for each device
- improving the autoupdate feature with groups (eg: audio, video, internet) for each package
- better default organization of the menus for both KDE and GNOME
- better Linux <-> Windows support (eg: network wizards, ntfs support)
- better media support
-
Like I said, one of the biggest problems of Linux is not being user-friendly... specially for newbies... but it should be, because it has a greater potencial than windows!

---
Best Regards

Dygear
2nd January 2005, 12:04 AM
This is not going to happen but Cedega 4.2.

Finalzone
2nd January 2005, 12:07 AM
Allow users to setup their own default session - KDE, GNOM, or MASS (Monkey's Ass), instead of having to manually setting each time before login.

It is available under the application name "switchdesk". To add that feature do
yum install switchdesk*
or use Synaptic.

That will also include the GUI. To access it, menu-->preference --> (KDE desktop: more preference)--> Desktop Switch Tools.
Hope it helps.

satovey
4th January 2005, 02:56 AM
Pegasus

FC4 will be better than FC3 as long as the folks
building FC4 don't listen to you. The suggestions
made to this point are those that the general
computer user wants on their system. I think
people like you hold up and keep the Linux
developement from being what it could be.

Let's take Yum for instance; Yum is an excellant
tool for installing packages and additional
applications. There is just one little problem that
the text Yum can't help you with. The actual name
of the package. If you don't know what the package
is labeled as under Yum, you can't install it.

Yum doesn't necessarily need to be changed into
a GUI app, however, a GUI interface of Yum would
be excellent. I know this because I have webmin
installed on my system which for your information
has a semi graffical interface for Yum. Click the
browse Yum button and you get a list of all the
applications that Yum has and are not installed on
your system. It's a bit clumsy to use though, and
I don't mean that it has bugs, I mean that the
interface which webmin provides is a clumsy
design, it could be better.

It's a good thing you have wings Pegasus, because
I think your going to need them in order to avoid
being squished by the steam roller comming down
the road you don't see.

People want a replacement for MS Windows that works
and has some of the same simplistic interface and usability
in it. They don't want to have to try and remember what the
stupid path to that program is that they want to run.

We all know how bad MS Windows can be, but the one
thing about MS Windows that you can't argue about is
how easy it is to install new programs. The easier that
Distros like Fedora and Mandrake can make it to install
and run new applications on Linux the better and more
likely it will be for people to start taking a serious look
at Linux as a replacement to MS Windows on the desktop.

While it is quite easy to compile programs on Fedora, you
can't expect every man and woman who will ever use
a computer to have the conficence to do it or even want
to know how. You need to get a reality check Pegasus.
Just because Fedora builds a decent GUI to many of the
features that make Linux run well, doesn't mean that Linux
will no longer run the way it does. Linux does not need
gnome, kde or any of the other Xwindows to work. Having
them just makes it more enjoyable to use Linux. Especially
for us people who find as we are getting older, it is more and
more difficult to remember just where that stupid application
was installed and what the files name is.

Fedora and other Linux Distros have two options, give the
people what they want in a computer environment or close
the doors. It's pretty much that simple.

The question is, are you going to work with the community or
against the community in achieving it? The title of this Forum
was not analys peoples wishes, but what is it that people would
like to see in FC4.

Like many others, I for one would love to see a GUI interface
to Yum. As well as an easier way to interface downloaded
applications into the GUI so that I can install them in a GUI as
opposed to doing it from the command line. I would also like
to have the installer fetch and install any other dependencies
that are needed by the app that I am installing. It's a real
pain when you go to install an app and it needs a certain
version of some library that is in reality installed on the system
but the library is not being registered. If developers would
simply provide those dependencies along with their app on
their download page this wouldn't be a problem.

Me personally, I would like an installer that will not only
install the application I am installing, but also properly
analys my system to find the most recent libraries that
are installed. And if they are not installed, download
and install them. This would be a paradigm shift for the
Linux community as a whole. It would also make
Linux more appealing to those people you call newbees.

Frankly, I am extremely tired of having to debug and
diagnose an app everytime the system can't find
the dependencies or some other little stupid thing
that makes absolutely no sense as to why the app
won't install. Which by the way, happens more often
when I am compiling a program than when I am running
an install from an rpm.

Perhaps the Linux Distros will start to standardize some
things like where apps are installed so that third party
developers can more easily integrate their apps
accross the different distros.

Take care and watch out for that steam roller comming
your way because theres a penguin driving it and I don't
think he passed the final to get his operators license.

Scott




What would you like to see in Fedora Core 4?

Now let's analyse these "additional" steps:

Multimedia Support needs to be implemented
We have several law-systems in different countries. Sometimes MP3 etc. is allowed, sometimes not. In addition to this, the codecs to play different multimediafiles: still the same.
Fedora Core Iso's are internationalized. It's not a big deal to connect to i-net and enter "yum install xmms-mp3" for example. Same for codecs: It belongs to your prefered player.
In case of that, we have a "user-dependency" on what sould be used or not.


FireFox need - sometimes - root access to make modifications
The community found solutions for this problem. Also these solutions are not "newbie-friendly". Now we can discuss about the following thing: "Is it a mozilla problem or a fedora problem?" It's a mozilla problem - if these changes where stored in "/home/[username]/.mozilla/firefox/..." this problem wouldn't exist. The same problem would occur, if other distros prefer FireFox as default browser, installed in "/usr/bin..." or similar...


Fedora preferes yum (without gui)
I've seen this discussion very often. So think about the following: It is LINUX. It's the same discussion about "which editor did you prefer?". If you don't like yum - without a gui - use apt/synaptic instead. Synaptic is a GUI which does exactly what a newbie want: resolve dependencies, add/remove packages etc. And it installs from i-net (see Up2Date features also). And, by configuring yum the right way, the "simple" commandline "yum install xy" will work in the same way apt/synaptic does. All answers to configure yum (it's repo files, using prefered repos etc.) are explained in THIS forum. Only thing to do is READING it...


Mime type handling and file associations is a pain...
Also i've written a tutor for this, many ppl aren't interested in it. The question raise again and again: "How do i set application XY as default so i am able to DOUBLECLICK a file?". Again we could ask: "Who the heck is guilty for this pain? Fedora or Gnome?". Fellows, it's Gnome. The problems are known in version 2.8 and will be fixed as soon as possible.
Fedora Core is based on nearly the NEWEST versions of packages. Maybe it's not the "newbie-friendliest" thinking ,but inside this forum we'll find help - and answers. All Linux compilations are based on two things: The possibility to change things ... and the advantage to communicate...


Up2Date features
What is the meaning of this point? I've read some topics about the possibility to:
-> use up2date to install from i-net ( and not from mounted isos and/or cd/dvd )
-> implement a bandwith-test ( yes, it was the topic i've started )
Question: do we need it? Or are we able to use yum to install form i-net and prepare the repos for our need that we don't need the bandwith-test?
We are able to create a text-based (without XWindows) startup and connect to i-net. In case of that, there is no need for a yum GUI to install the system. Its the default workflow to create a LFS - linux from scratch ... based on Fedora Core...


Sure, there might be other problems ( X64 systems, ATI/NVIDIA, soundcards, scanners ... ) but thats the reason why we have the chance to communicate in a forum like this. And help developers by using bugzilla systems.
On the other way round, you can be safe that this topic will be read by fedora developers ... also if they don't answer...
As long as we keep up the good work in a forum like this, FC4 will be "better" than FC3 ... because Fedora Core is FROM the community FOR the community ;)

chuchII
4th January 2005, 05:52 AM
hey how bout some included support for ATI All-in-Wonder fools like me?
would be nice to have my TV tuner working without hunting down other software

mickeyboy
4th January 2005, 07:28 PM
Stability......

Jim

telmo
4th January 2005, 07:40 PM
Free Porn! :D

imdeemvp
4th January 2005, 08:10 PM
Free Porn! :D
You are joking aren't you? I rather have a better multimedia support. :p

Adesso
5th January 2005, 01:04 PM
I think the most important thing to get done is the GUI interface to update your system...

This should take into consideration the use of YUM {The one I don't like} APT{Fav} UP2Date or Synaptic{Apt front end}

Once you get the upadtes to be user friendly.. the rest will be so much faster and stress free....

weapon
5th January 2005, 02:26 PM
Here is a couple of sugestions:

1) I Would like to see Mplayer and Xine installed WITHOUT the codecs (mp3 mpg decss etc.) so we have mplayer and just have to get codecs via 3rd pary repo

2) Also a tool for setting up a network intstall (grab the files chuck them in an aproprite directory, set up http/ftp/nfs (which ever you choose), posibly in anoconda (this means you have all the files on disk for the install), and possible intergration with kickstart.

3) in system-config-secutiry (you know the one the firewall) allowing trusted servises only on certain devices (eg. haveing a nfs server but only letting it work on eth0, not ppp0)

4) fluxbox

5) audacity

6)also why not include links in the web browser/browsers to comunity websites like fedoraforum.org, fedorafaq.org fedora.redhat.com etc. so newbies can get help when they need it. also this would mean that you do not need to tell people to get non open source software as fedorafaq usualy tells people that

7) a methord of connecting to the net over dialup without haveing to run it as root (should still have to set it up as root)

8) tripwire & snort

9) bittorent

10) gnome-alsamixer

I know it is a long list, so i don't expect everything to go in, but i would like to see what other users think of these items

Weapon

Shadow Skill
5th January 2005, 03:37 PM
You probably can't pull off the mplayer/xine thing since the codecs are dependencies of the actual program itself. Unless the are able to force a build ignoring all of those dependencies.

Shadow Skill
5th January 2005, 03:51 PM
Satovey "dephell" is only going to be solved when the coders get over themselves and create a proper registry system, proper being virtually anything other than what Microsoft did with windows.

satovey
6th January 2005, 03:09 AM
Yeah,

Why not just use a MySql database?

Also, as opposed to the system loading the
registry into ram, have it check the database
for the location when a program calls for the
particular driver. That way, the system is only
using the part of the registry that is relevent
for it's current operation. You could also
have settings that allow for specific always
used components to be loaded on bootup.
By doing this, you speed up the database
as well as shorten bootup time.

Speaking of bootup time, why not load the
essential components that are required to
run the programs first, then the gui interface,
and then all non essential programs while the
user is logging in and working on a document?
Ah, maybe this would be a stupid thing to do,
it's just a suggested what if.

Satovey "dephell" is only going to be solved when the coders get over themselves and create a proper registry system, proper being virtually anything other than what Microsoft did with windows.

satovey
6th January 2005, 03:21 AM
I have one that no one has mentioned.
Of course it's because I ran into it today.
When the system shutsdown do to a
power outage, the drives get screwed
up. I would like to see a better drive
testing program and an automatic
fix similar to MS windows.

I don't know how often I have had the power
die when running win98 and never had a
filesytem corrupt to the point that I can't
reboot the system. Linux file systems however
are a bit more tempermental in this area.

I would like to see a more robust file system
format utilized as well as a better reboot
file system repair tool. It took me three
reboots and an hour running fsck on my
two drives before I was able to reboot
the system.

Secondly to this same point, if I am not using
raid0, should not the system automatically
not mount a bad file system, (provided the
drive is not the boot drive), and then tell
me to run fsck or e2fsck after boot up?

I never had to take over an hour to get a win98
system to reboot when the only thing that happened
was that the power dropped and shut off the
system.

That was a real pain, and frankly, most non tech
people would not be able to get their system to
run if they were faced with what I had to deal
with today. I think this is a major need if Fedora
or any Linus distro wants to go mainstream in the
desktop arena. You can't expect people to have
all the hardware to deal with power outages.

Ok, I'm done with my rant. :) It's a good wish though.

Shadow Skill
6th January 2005, 04:13 AM
I've always found it strange the FC defaults to not performing a fs check when the system suffers from a hard shutdown. I would think it would default to checking the fs if you just didn't press any key at the prompt instead of the otherway around.

mjman
6th January 2005, 07:43 AM
With ext3, changes to the filesystem are journaled, so in the event of a hard shuttdown, most errors can be fixed with the information in the journal, thus making fsck only neccessary when things go really wrong. In such a case that the root filesystem has been seriously corrupted, fedora will drop you to a single-user shell and reccommend running fsck.
Likewise, the NTFS filesystem for windows is partially journaled. versions of windows NT and beyond do not force checkdisk after a hard shutdown for the same reason.
In my own experience, I have found fedora to suffer fewer consequences from a hard shutdown that win xp. I have had to reinstall programs many times in windows because of a hard shutdown, but I have never had a problem in fedora.

this is how I understand it. please correct me if I'm wrong.


As for FC4:

1. The lack of stable software suspend is emabarrasing, and inconvinient. This needs to be fixed, and integrated.

2. I have had several issues with hald, and fstab-sync. currently, hald will not start for me, and I have to manually mount external drives. This is a result of me messing around, trying to turn off fstab-sync (which was preventing me from setting permanent user permissions on a certain external drive). There needs to be a way to create a permanent entry in fstab that will not be deleted by fstab-sync upon reboot.

3. Switching to xorg 6.8 before the ati drivers were ready was a poor decision, and it has frustrated many many users. I hope that the developers have the foresight not to make such a mistake again.

4. The stock kernel.rpm comes loaded with a whole mess of stuff that the average desktop user does not need, and can cause problems (for example CONFIG_DEBUG_SPINLOCK in not compatible with the new version of ndiswrapper, forcing the user to compile a custom kernel with kernel debugging disabled). Perhaps there should be a kernel.rpm for developers and one for average users? I dunno... just a thought.

maamold
11th January 2005, 06:03 PM
>* Get rid of the second task bar at the top of the screen in FC3's default Gnome desktop - it's >surely bad UI since won't you have to keep moving your pointer to the top of the screen and then >back to the bottom to do something else and then back up to the top again...ugh!

You realize that you can drag (or properties) them to the same side of the screen in about 5 seconds

DaBlade
11th January 2005, 11:13 PM
Better KDE support
Displaymanager selection in Anaconda
Better sound drivers (ALSA only in stead of aRts or ESD)
Transparent red hat update notification icon, and printer icon. They look ugly with the white square on my blue kicker background.
GkrellIM having a system tray
Thunderbird in stead of Evolution
Automounting/unmounting for CDs and USB mass storage devices
Make Up2Date a lot more stable
Replace Yum with Apt

XHess
12th January 2005, 02:09 AM
Hi all!

I havent read all threads, sorry, but i think it is time for GDesklets in FC. This tool will not works with my FC3.
More graphic speed with NVidia! I hate the light blur on my desktop.

I love FC and i hope a Finalrelease is coming and very stable!

Greetz XHess

___sorry for my schoolenglish! :)

lafrad
12th January 2005, 02:43 AM
Better World of Warcraft support.

LinuxHippy
12th January 2005, 06:32 PM
3 things that I'd like to see in FC4:

1). The ability to rewind your entire install of FC4 to the install date or any other time you set as a restore point.

2). An easy GUI configuration center for joysticks (USB or serial).

3). Fluxbox as a GUI option with KDE and GNOME.

Instdude
12th January 2005, 07:22 PM
It would be nice to see Fedora try to become more user friendly overall. The few people I have talked with complain that its too hard to install for the average user. Installing the add-ons, well that's another story.

Firewing1
13th January 2005, 04:56 PM
I'd like to see A WAY TO REMOVE COMPILED PROGRAMS!!! i was having problems with my versions of Apache, I had almost 10 httpd.conf in diff spots from the source folder, the 3 diff versiond of apache, and then a web tutorial tells me to edit the httpd.conf file. well, which one?? it took me 2 h to sort them all out and delete the old versions of apache.

Mat
13th January 2005, 07:13 PM
what about
% make uninstall
??


Mat

PeTzZz
14th January 2005, 05:24 PM
Here are the list of things I miss:

1. Menu editing. EDIT: probably it will be available.
2. Built in possibility to listen to sounds at the same time.
3. Volume control should also allow to change volume in software, because there are many onboard soundcards witch doesn't allow to change volume in hardware (for example my onboard C-Media CMI9739/A chip)
4. The ability to rewind your entire install of FC4 to the install date or any other time you set as a restore point. (originally posted by LinuxHippy) EDIT: it seems that such programs are available already, so why not integrate one of them (GUI one)
5. Auto unmounting CD's. EDIT: works now, it seems that there have been an update for it
6. Included yum gui or similar that will be connected to the system tray icon (or better up2date). EDIT: it is in their todo list
7. Partitioning, disc management tool. EDIT: Gnome has a disc management tool in their todo list, but I don't know what it lets to do.
8. X-CD-Roast should be compiled with non-root mode enabled.
(9. Better window decorations and controls etc. Yes, I can download better ones, but actually I don't find good neutral and polite beautiful ones.)

Gnome specific:
1. Search for files by mime-type.
2. Nautilus: option to add the same permissions to all files/folders in the directory and some other similar options.

Actually cannot remember anything more at the moment.

PeTzZz

mjman
14th January 2005, 06:14 PM
2. Nautilus: option to add the same permissions to all files/folders in the directory and some other similar options.
PeTzZz

while this may not be an option within nautilus, you can do it from the terminal with chmod -R or chown -R

PeTzZz
14th January 2005, 06:19 PM
while this may not be an option within nautilus, you can do it from the terminal with chmod -R or chown -R
Thanks for that tip!

Firewing1
15th January 2005, 01:19 AM
Hi, about make uninstall, I've tried, only some programs have it (and not many, by the looks of it, because i've tried...) But thanks for the suggestion.

mohelgamal
19th January 2005, 12:43 AM
I hope they can make the fonts esp on web pages appear like windows
every time I try a linux distro (fc1, mandrake 10.0, xandros,knoppix) what ever I do the fonts seem ugly even in the screen shots most linux maker put in their web sites

Void Main
19th January 2005, 02:13 AM
Add MySQL 4.x and ditch SELinux. Ditch yum and up2date and make Dag Wieers' apt and repo the default. :)

mjman
19th January 2005, 06:30 AM
I hope they can make the fonts esp on web pages appear like windows
every time I try a linux distro (fc1, mandrake 10.0, xandros,knoppix) what ever I do the fonts seem ugly even in the screen shots most linux maker put in their web sites

I'm not really sure why you say this. In FC3 under gnome, I find the fonts to be quite appealing, in fact, I like the look better than windows. It's more sophisticated
just my opinion though.

PeTzZz
19th January 2005, 10:34 AM
I'm not really sure why you say this. In FC3 under gnome, I find the fonts to be quite appealing, in fact, I like the look better than windows. It's more sophisticated
just my opinion though.
By the way yesterday my sister visited me and was surprised how beautiful and nice fonts linux have. She said it while she was browsing in Firefox.
:cool:

garnertr
19th January 2005, 04:11 PM
Ahhh good thread, from a newbie point of view:

GNOME - Ediiting, menu manipulation, etc...

MULTI-MEDIA. I'm sorry to say but unless FC comes right out during the install in *** dumb speak *** and says that there will not be a default DVD PLAYER and MP3 PLAYER , then you'll instantly turn off the non-techy crowd, why? B/c WHY should I have to install and/or hunt down and install software.

Are the other Distro's really being sued by DCMA and/or other entities?

SOFTWARE REPOSITORY - An easier way to *** find **** software. This is just my own newbie edge kicking in, but I am finding it difficult to "find" software, now the installing via YUM is wonderful, but if I don't know WHAT the name of a package is, then I'm somewhat at a loss. For example, I'm looking for a good library/catalog software for my multi-media collection and book collection. But I'm finding it difficult to find software, so I'm just tagging it in Open Office Spreadsheet.

For my limited use on my laptap, those where the two biggest, not being able to modify GNOME menu and MULTI-MEDIA, I thought there was something WRONG w/ my Laptop b/c of the lack of DVD player and well, not feeling silling, not knowing to install.

Finding software is another issue, but I'm not a rock and I've been able to find software through the Forums and Google. But I believe to effect the simple life of a non-technical person, some tweaking on the software/multi-media side would help out tremendously. Otherwise, FC is going to stick well for a more well educated crowd.

Otherwise, I'm quite happy w/ Fedora and its working quite well for my limited uses... :)

PeTzZz
19th January 2005, 04:42 PM
For example, I'm looking for a good library/catalog software for my multi-media collection and book collection. But I'm finding it difficult to find software, so I'm just tagging it in Open Office Spreadsheet.
Try GWhere (http://www.gwhere.org/home.php3?idLanguage=en), Data Crow (http://datacrow.sourceforge.net/index.html) or CD Library (http://www.anycities.com/cdlibrary/).

benjaminjames
19th January 2005, 05:06 PM
How about a pre-installed Wine app that runs a majority of windows apps with little or no configuration? This would remove the incompatibility problems and would ENSURE a large number of new Linux-converts.

benlg
19th January 2005, 05:29 PM
What I want to see in Fedora Core 4 is my legacy "french canadian" keyboard just like it is in Fedora Core 3

Please dont go Mandrake 9/10 on me! This and Xfce @ install are two reasons I am on FC3 right now! :)

Oh! And Let me choose my defaut desktop! I'm tired of choosing Xfce as my session each times


Benoit B.
Somewhat of a newbie from an experts point of view
Somewhat of an expert from a newbies point of view
http://gul.uqam.ca

PeTzZz
19th January 2005, 05:37 PM
Oh! And Let me choose my defaut desktop! I'm tired of choosing Xfce as my session each times
You can set the default desktop with switchdesk tool. If it's gui is not available from the menu: 'Preferences-->More Preferences-->Desktop Switching Tool' then you can install the gui with yum. The package name is switchdesk-gui and the command will be:
#yum install switchdesk-gui
I hope that it helps.

I don't remember if that gui is installed by default, but if isn't then it should.

imdeemvp
20th January 2005, 08:28 AM
Oh! And Let me choose my defaut desktop! I'm tired of choosing Xfce as my session each times here is the how to. (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?p=92326)


I would like to see some more games such chromium, super tax (super mario clone), LBreakout 2, and armagetron.

Thanks in advance.

superbnerd
20th January 2005, 08:42 AM
Does anyone know why they removed chronium from fc3?

Also, I would like redhat to start listening to the community. They have improved a little, but they still guard and dictate everything. I understand they are trying to protect their product rhel, which is based on fedora, but I don't think I have heard of another FOSS project that had so much willing supporters but didn't take advantage of them. If they listened to the community a little more instead of this thread being about what we want in fc4, it would be about what we are going to modify in fc4.

imdeemvp
20th January 2005, 08:56 AM
Welcome Back superbnerd! :)

superbnerd
20th January 2005, 08:58 AM
Thanks imdeemvp.

You see. Its nice to have such a friendly and willing community, but its a shame redhat has not yet fully taken advantage of it.

AllGNU
22nd January 2005, 03:52 PM
FC3 is near perfect for my usage, :) i just would like to have better fonts like the one installed by the Ximian Desktop 2 or the corefonts. I know that this is not easy, as some fonts technologies are patented.

JordanN
22nd January 2005, 05:04 PM
-Personalize things alot more, examples

Type of Install
Home Desktop Business Desktop Workstation Server Minimal Server-noX


I was going to suggest something along these lines as well. It would be nice if there was a list of possible uses in the installer so that the user could choose the one that best fit the intended use of the machine.

A few others; Sound/Video Editing, Graphic Design, Development, etc.

It wouldn't be hard to make lists of the packages and settings that best fit each use.

crazmonk
25th January 2005, 01:14 AM
I would like to see FC4 boot an awful lot faster than it does now.

imdeemvp
25th January 2005, 10:20 AM
BTW you can install lbreakout2 via yum :yum install lbreakout2

PeTzZz
25th January 2005, 12:18 PM
I would like to see FC4 boot an awful lot faster than it does now.
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2005-January/msg00521.html
Faster boot

Eliminating redundancy and old cruft in the bootup process,
starting GDM early if possible, using newer and faster
udev codebases, and other related tweaks.
They are working on it :)

Finalzone
25th January 2005, 07:06 PM
1. The lack of stable software suspend is emabarrasing, and inconvinient. This needs to be fixed, and integrated.

This is a kernel issue. Suspend option (commonly known as Stand By in Windows) is still experimental so it is disabled. However, you can specify the time Fedora will be in suspend mode on Control Panel (tested with KDE and Gnome).

2. I have had several issues with hald, and fstab-sync. currently, hald will not start for me, and I have to manually mount external drives. This is a result of me messing around, trying to turn off fstab-sync (which was preventing me from setting permanent user permissions on a certain external drive). There needs to be a way to create a permanent entry in fstab that will not be deleted by fstab-sync upon reboot.
Which version of HAL did you use and what drivers you want to install?

3. Switching to xorg 6.8 before the ati drivers were ready was a poor decision, and it has frustrated many many users. I hope that the developers have the foresight not to make such a mistake again.
Actually, Fedora developers are not blame. ATI is. Its rival Nvidia took advantage of their lag by being the first driver that can support xorg 6.8. ATI should take its lesson from its rival. Remember it is in Fedora policies (a 100% open source OS) to not wait for closed source software to be ready. Apparently videocard developers use Fedora kernel to see the flaw of their own drivers.



1. Menu editing

Both Gnome and KDE are working on their version that follow freedesktop.org standard. Current versions have nasty issue with menu editing so most distros choose to disable that option.
1. Menu editing.

greatscot
25th January 2005, 07:06 PM
Apt and synaptic. These would, imo, be great for people switching to FC4 from Windows, not to mention people like me who have been hooked on Linux for more than 2 years. These are awesome apps for installing/managing software and dependencies. Please include apt and synaptic in FC4.

greatscot
26th January 2005, 02:58 PM
I'd like to see apt and synaptic included in FC4. These are great apps and my daughter and I use them daily.

Firewing1
26th January 2005, 09:57 PM
I think better up2date databases would be nice. On up2date, it keeps bothering me to install PHP 4.3, after i've told it to ignore PHP, and plus the newest version is 5.0.3, which I also installed. So it not only fails to detect PHP 5.0.3, but it's not even the correct update!

3inone
27th January 2005, 04:43 AM
Things to be improved:
Put the fine grain Add/Remove package control back in that was in the install of RH 9. Why would anyone want to drop a VERY servicable install feature to customise one of the offered base configurations?

swarren
29th January 2005, 08:22 PM
1) Support for multiple USB printers. I have 2 USB printers. I want to be able to hook them up to a server, but power them on/off whenever I need. Right now, whenever I do this, Fedora over-writes the CUPS configuration, creating new queues I don't want, disabling raw printing and generally making a huge mess.

I want to disable the cups.conf generation at least, or preferably have Fedora see the serial number of the printer, realize it's seen it before, and hence not change my previous config.

2) IPSEC support should work properly. I attempted to setup an IPSEC link between 2 systems, each behind a NAT, one with a dynamic IP address. I tried using the Fedora GUI, and this didn't seem to support that configuration at all. It's very simplistic. I then manually configured things like ipsec.conf according to numerous HOWTOs I read, making sure I enabled NAT-T and everything else. However, whenever a link is initiated, the receving end of the session setup always get a corrupted packet.

So, I'd like to see a much more comprehensive IPSEC configuration tool, and the bugs fixed.

3) My monitor is failing. It's rated for 1280x1024@85Hz, but will only do 60Hz reliably. It's also rated for higher resolutions, but won't do them reliably. I've managed to get Fedora to always display 1280x1024 using the "system settings/display". However, it always picks 85Hz every time I reboot or logout. Every time I login, I use "preferences/screen resolution" to select 60Hz, but it never rembers it, whether I log in as root or my user, and whether I check the box to make the option "default for this host only" or not.

So, I'd like the main display settings panel to allow refresh rate configuration, so I can set it in one place, and also I'd like the system to remember my setting.

4) If you format an LVM "partitio"n as ext2/ext3, then resize the partition using LVM, then attempt to resize the filesystem, it will become corrupted. This is because mke2fs sets up the filesystem for one resize method, but Fedora only supplies tools to actually perform the other resize method (one is online resize, the other offline resize).

Since I trashed a filesystem with this (luckily my backup partition, so I just made another backup after fixing the problem!) I immediately switched to reiserfs for all my filesystems and any new installs.

This should just work out of the box.

5) Upgrade to Thunderbird 1.0 already!

I think that's it for now!

Void Main
29th January 2005, 08:29 PM
4) If you format an LVM "partitio"n as ext2/ext3, then resize the partition using LVM, then attempt to resize the filesystem, it will become corrupted. This is because mke2fs sets up the filesystem for one resize method, but Fedora only supplies tools to actually perform the other resize method (one is online resize, the other offline resize).

Can you provide more information on this? I have not had this problem and would be interested to hear more about it. It should go in a new thread though. I just wrote a HOWTO on resizing LVMs so I am very interested. Thanks!

swarren
29th January 2005, 09:10 PM
Can you provide more information on this? I have not had this problem and would be interested to hear more about it. It should go in a new thread though. I just wrote a HOWTO on resizing LVMs so I am very interested. Thanks!

See this mailing list thread:

https://listman.redhat.com/archives/ext3-users/2004-December/msg00018.html

Void Main
29th January 2005, 09:23 PM
See this mailing list thread:

https://listman.redhat.com/archives/ext3-users/2004-December/msg00018.html

Thanks! I'll have to put a warning in my HOWTO. I did have fsck find some issues once now that I think about it and it must have been related to this issue but I answered "y" to the "fsck -f" questions and it corrected everything in my case. From reading the thread it would appear that I was just lucky. To me, this is something that should not only be added to FC4 but should be corrected in FC3 updates.

P.S. Sorry for hijacking this thread.

Assassin2005
5th February 2005, 05:45 AM
Hmm what do i want?
first of all a graphical interface for installing packages
like most others, built-in support for mpeg and mp3
built-in access to ntfs drives
and being able to choose the defualt desktop for a user from the user list (insted of having to switch users)
That will do for the moment :)

billccusu
6th February 2005, 04:27 PM
on my fc3 udev don't work worth a damm, I can read/write cdroms but not dvdroms

Firewing1
7th February 2005, 10:30 PM
Hi,
I know this is not really a supprot forum but for DVD's I couldn't play them either, I thought the same as you - But it was a config problem. Download mPlayer if you don't already have it, if you can grab the gmplayer version too. (It's the graphical mPlayer.) Edit the configs under video to that the DVD reader points to your DVD-ROM device. (On mine, it's /dev/hdc)

Firewing1
9th February 2005, 02:57 AM
Hi,
Another thing I'd like to see in FC3 is a Nautilus with a address bar. You can say Browse Filesystem, but otherwise every nautilus windows has no address bar and each folder opens in a new window... It REALLY annoys me since I file my files away buried deep in folders :)
Firewing1

jtang613
9th February 2005, 03:05 AM
Hi,
Another thing I'd like to see in FC3 is a Nautilus with a address bar. You can say Browse Filesystem, but otherwise every nautilus windows has no address bar and each folder opens in a new window... It REALLY annoys me since I file my files away buried deep in folders :)
Firewing1

Actually, that's already been taken care of. In Nautilus choose: Edit->Preferences->Behavior-> "Always Open in Browser Windows"

Voila! Enjoy.

veritas
9th February 2005, 08:12 PM
I'm a bit of a newbie. Here is what a plain old home computer user will look for. If these things are difficult, as they were for me, they will not try Linux of any flavor and it can stay the OS of highly skilled techie types.

1. Email. That seems to work fine. I use Evolution...I've heard no complaints about Thunderbird. As a PR move, really stressing

2. Browsing the internet. Firefox is fine...I used it while in Windows as well. But holy disk drive, batman, have I had to jump through hoops to get functionality even close to Windows. Now, I realize that these, below, are not necessarily the fault of Fedora, but these are the issues that need to be addressed as Linux moves into the mainstream. Any steps Fedora/Redhat makes to expedite these issues will be good.

a. java. I finally got it working, but not by any rpm. It was crashing Firefox and it finally took a very large number of posts in the Opera forum, of all places, to figure out that I was missing certain libraries. (opera has some kind of debug mode that generated some messages that identified the missing librarires) I'm constantly amazed at what is not included in standard rpm installations. why have a java plugin that is rpm and not have all the correct dependencies? Now, if java can't be included due to licensing issues, see my discussion of that below. In the meantime, even if the actual program can't be included, the dependencies of programs very LIKELY to be installed certainly can be.

b. streaming multimedia. Mplayer didn't work for me at all as an embedded player! I did some research on linux.com and realize that this is definitely not just FC. However, this needs to be a HUGE priority in Linux devel. Anything Redhat can do to look into this issue and make it better will be great. Realplayer worked fine, though I got VERY confused in installation. I noticed there was the Helixplayer but read that for some things you need the Realplayer. So I went to the realplayer site and the link to download went back to something with Helix. I still don't understand exactly what the difference is, or why there are two in the first place.

c. Audio files. Okay, I'm in a minority here. For some reason, absolutely none of the media players can play CD's on my system right now. I've posted about it, but no one had any ideas. I don't see this as a typical complaint...but NONE of my players work? (Works fine in Windows, so it's not the cdrom drive.) In general, I found all discussions about audio to be confusing. I don't want to worry about ALSA libs or even if I'm using the correct version of ALSA or what those 15 different sliders do. I'd just like some audio. thanks. For me, this was difficult, but, as I said, I may be in the minority here.

3. Games. Ummm...please do NOT suggest Tux racer. WE all know that gaming is in its infancy in Linux. I've not been impressed at all with Transgaming. their Cedega software has not worked for me. I don't know if it is possible to include wine with some tweaks that make at least some Windows games easily playable by relative newbies, but it would open up the LInux market quite a bit. Then, issues of drivers and games not being released for linux might begin to change. I haven't worked with Wine yet, because it looked like I needed to be a lot more familiar with Linux before I attempted it. Anything that makes this process easier will be helpful.

4. Printing. I, at least, had an HP, so an open source driver was available. But then you have to go through CUPS and there are two interfaces possible...the regular GUI and the browser based. I got stuck with a large document that I canceled the print job for. It wouldn't go away! Everytime I rebooted, it would print just a bit more of it. I don't recall all the hassles I had, but I seem to remember that installing the driver was not real intuitive. And still I have issues. For example, I tried to print in Open Office and it just showed "generic printer". It printed, but I couldn't make any changes to the settings before it did so. (Not looking for tech help here, these are just examples that have driven me batty.)

5. Office utilities. I've been quite happy with Open Office. I wish they could do a bit more to import formatted Word Docs more accurately but that is a minor quibble.

6. Digital photos. I haven't messed with this yet. I actually do quite a bit of digital photography. Here's what has to work to win someone over.

a. card reader support. NO ONE who takes many pictures will download from the camera. They'll have compact flash or equivalent cards which easily hold 256 megs of data. I haven't plugged my card reader in yet because I'm assuming that getting it to work is a huge hassle. It needs to be as easy as plugging it in. If it is already that easy...fantastic!

b. Image manipulation software. GIMP...cool, photoshop level program for free. I assume there are also utilities out there that offer far fewer features but are easier to use for casual photographers.

7. GUI, GUI, GUI. I'm only familiar with Gnome. I've found it pretty easy to get around in. Just keep in mind that an average new user does not really want to mess around with commands and the terminal. Anytime there is an option for GUI, it should be taken. More experienced users know how to dump all that if their system is too clogged down and they don't need it.

8. Now, I don't have a home network or a PDA or a portable mp3 players. These also are issues that plain ole average users are interested in, but I won't comment on them. Hopefully, there's good, intuitive software and/or tutorials for such folks.

Now, I have no idea how many of these things people putting together a distro have any control over. A lot of this requires some cooperation among various parties. sometimes, I suppose all the Fedora dev community can do is ask some Linux newbies to read over some how-to faqs and see if they are user friendly. However, since a lot of these issues come up repeatedly, I think more CAN be done.

As for the licensing issue. I don't understand all the complexities of it. I know that I can get an Nvidia driver for free. I don't know why an FC install can't facilitate that. If nothing else, it could provide a link to the site and perhaps better documentation than they provide. Ditto for realplayer, java. Are the codecs used in things like Mplayer also proprietary? If not, why aren't they part of an install? And if they are proprietary, why do I have to go hunting them?

In other words, thinking of the several items I listed, these are extremely likely to come up for a new user. It needs to be waaaay easier to include this basic level of functionality. As I think I mentioned, currently I don't recommend LINUX to friends who are casual users. "Definitely still for hobbyists" is my standard line. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but that's my take on things.

mirowalker
9th February 2005, 08:38 PM
I've only just managed to get my FC3 system up and working well (after a few aborted installs), but I do have a couple of comments that I think would make things much easier. I know they're minor, but they almost made me ive up on FC3 in favour of another distro:

Installing FC3 on my laptop meant that the default resolution / monitor settings showed an unreadable graphic mode. I hunted around and found out how to install in text mode, but even after doing this, following system install the first thing my machine did was boot into graphics mode and present a license agreement. Needless to say I couldn't find the buttons to accept the agreement 'cos my display was screwed. I found a workaround (plug in an external monitor), but couldn't the selection of a non-graphical install cause a non-graphical default interface? At least enough to allow me to choose my monitor / video mode myself?

Secondly, when I installed off the CDs I didn't install everything I needed first time around. Going back and selecting more packages later caused packages to be copied from CD in some arbitrary order (not sorted by source CD), so I ended up having to disk swap 30+ times to install some extra stuff... "Insert Disc 1... Insert Disc 3... Insert Disc 2... Insert Disc 3... AAARGH." A simple sort on packages during post-install package maintenance would be very helpful for people like me who don't really know what they do and don't want installed up front.

Other than that, I'm pretty impressed, really - it seems to do most of what I'd hope for and is certainly easier to use than the last time I installed linux (8 years ago now)!

nagirrab
9th February 2005, 09:34 PM
I'm also a bit of a newbie. I've only had one experience of linux before FC3, but I would like to say that I've found fedora far superior to the other linux system I tried; I was particularly pleased to find my network connected and the internet working straight after the install, without me having to do a thing.. :)

Anyway here are my (very brief) contributions:

1) Installing packages/drivers etc. I know this has been said before, but I don't think anyone should underestimate how important it is to be able to download a program or drivers and be able to install it without being told to edit '[z].config' replacing line y with x - this is one of the most important aspects to improve IMO.

2) NTFS support - slightly puzzled by this one, as all it took for me to get NTFS support was a search for NTFS on google and following instructions on the second website down.. why can't fedora come with support for this out of the box?

Obviously the main thing stopping me from using linux more is the fact that games won't run in it, but I do think that sorting 1), along with the general user-friendliness issue, would lead to a lot of new people using fedora and linux in general, which would obviously start to make nVidia and people devote more of their time to it.

Anyway, thanks to everyone involved for creating such a great package!

Finalzone
9th February 2005, 09:38 PM
a. java. I finally got it working, but not by any rpm.
There is an alternative called gcj which is basically Open source version of Java. Most package are writng to support Sun java but that may change in the future. I suggest to try j2re 1.5x to fix the issue.

b. streaming multimedia. Mplayer didn't work for me at all as an embedded player! I did some research on linux.com and realize that this is definitely not just FC. However, this needs to be a HUGE priority in Linux devel. Anything Redhat can do to look into this issue and make it better will be great. Realplayer worked fine, though I got VERY confused in installation. I noticed there was the Helixplayer but read that for some things you need the Realplayer. So I went to the realplayer site and the link to download went back to something with Helix. I still don't understand exactly what the difference is, or why there are two in the first place.
Helix is open source i.e. it does not include legal issue format like mp3, wma while Realplayer does. That explains why it is included in FC. The streaming media problem is not related to Red Hat but to its developers. Remember Red Hat cannot include any proprietary media on Fedora due US patent laws.

c. Audio files. Okay, I'm in a minority here. For some reason, absolutely none of the media players can play CD's on my system right now. I've posted about it, but no one had any ideas. I don't see this as a typical complaint...but NONE of my players work? (Works fine in Windows, so it's not the cdrom drive.) In general, I found all discussions about audio to be confusing. I don't want to worry about ALSA libs or even if I'm using the correct version of ALSA or what those 15 different sliders do. I'd just like some audio. thanks. For me, this was difficult, but, as I said, I may be in the minority here.
Check out it you CD drive is connected to the motherboard with a audio cable for CD. Some posters found out that. Just because that CD driver work on Windows does not always mean it work for a Linux distros. Also make sure you have unmuted the CD volume.

3. Games. Ummm...please do NOT suggest Tux racer. WE all know that gaming is in its infancy in Linux. I've not been impressed at all with Transgaming. their Cedega software has not worked for me. I don't know if it is possible to include wine with some tweaks that make at least some Windows games easily playable by relative newbies, but it would open up the LInux market quite a bit. Then, issues of drivers and games not being released for linux might begin to change. I haven't worked with Wine yet, because it looked like I needed to be a lot more familiar with Linux before I attempted it. Anything that makes this process easier will be helpful.
Which is why you are free to modify and hack Wine source code. Should you find a solution, share with other developers. ^_^ . Don't forget it is not easy to reproduce Windows system due its closed sources.

a. card reader support. NO ONE who takes many pictures will download from the camera. They'll have compact flash or equivalent cards which easily hold 256 megs of data. I haven't plugged my card reader in yet because I'm assuming that getting it to work is a huge hassle. It needs to be as easy as plugging it in. If it is already that easy...fantastic!
I am glad to tell use that FC3 does detect compact card flash without a problem. All is done automatically so no need for human assistance.

As for the licensing issue. I don't understand all the complexities of it. I know that I can get an Nvidia driver for free. I don't know why an FC install can't facilitate that. If nothing else, it could provide a link to the site and perhaps better documentation than they provide.
About Nvidia driver, because its code is not open and Nvidia fears that its competitors will use its codes to enhance their graphical cards.

Ditto for realplayer, java. Are the codecs used in things like Mplayer also proprietary? If not, why aren't they part of an install? And if they are proprietary, why do I have to go hunting them? Yes. Remember that Fedora Core is a free OS sponspored by Red Hat. Because of US patent laws, a company that includes proprietary codecs on its free product will be subject to a lawsuit. Red Hat (a USan company) choose to not include them to avoid this danger.

In other words, thinking of the several items I listed, these are extremely likely to come up for a new user. It needs to be waaaay easier to include this basic level of functionality. As I think I mentioned, currently I don't recommend LINUX to friends who are casual users. "Definitely still for hobbyists" is my standard line. Maybe I've just had bad luck, but that's my take on things.

Remember Fedora Core is one of Linux distros. If you want a very user friendly Linux distros, Linspire, Xandros and Mandrake are the choice but both are priced.

I also suggest to read this post (http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?p=133507&highlight=multimedia+support#post133507)

veritas
10th February 2005, 02:37 AM
Yes, all good points, Finalzone and I had read that post before. Not being able to provide drivers/codecs is not the same as facilitating their installation. However, I think you are right...I need to plunk down a few bucks for a user friendly distro till I know what I'm doing. I think that FC4 should probably have an upfront explanation that if you are a newbie, this is not the distro for you as none of the non-open source stuff will be included, even though it is possible to install it yourself. A page of nice links would be good, as well. One very simple solution would be some permanent links right up front that explain all the most popular multimedia options and link to the tutorials. I know there are good tutorials out there (and many that are hard to follow as they assume a higher degree of experience), so let's put that stuff on page 1.

I still don't get the stuff about codecs. Are the codecs themselves illegal? Mplayer includes them on their site. Are they in danger of lawsuit?

Helix is open source i.e. it does not include legal issue format like mp3, wma while Realplayer does. That explains why it is included in FC. The streaming media problem is not related to Red Hat but to its developers. Remember Red Hat cannot include any proprietary media on Fedora due US patent laws.


yes, I sort of sorted this out, but it's an example of confusion for a newbie. And having the Realplayer link back to stuff also called Helix is confusing. So far, my best luck has been Realplayer. If I knew where there was streaming video in open source format, I'd go there...but I don't think there's much of it.

Check out it you CD drive is connected to the motherboard with a audio cable for CD. Some posters found out that. Just because that CD driver work on Windows does not always mean it work for a Linux distros. Also make sure you have unmuted the CD volume.

Thanks. It's not muted. I don't know about the cable. I guess it did seem to me that if I can hear music on it in Windows then it will play in Linux. That's not exactly user friendly though. Having to open your computer and inspect cabling? I wonder if I'll even know if it has the right kind of cable or how to do that. Why is this so tricky? And the very large number of volume sliders are quite mysterious as well.

Which is why you are free to modify and hack Wine source code. Should you find a solution, share with other developers. ^_^ . Don't forget it is not easy to reproduce Windows system due its closed sources.

I appreciate your comments, and I'm not trying to start a flame war, but no, in fact, I am not free to hack Wine source code. I have no idea how to hack Wine source code. My point was that, if there is a desire to broaden the appeal of Fedora, then the answer "go hack the source code" is not adequate. If it is possible to hack it so that it is very user friendly for newer users, then hopefully, some folks will do that. Transgaming tries with Cedega tries, but they charge and, for me at least, it didn't work. And I know it's not easy to get closed source Windows programs to work. I just went to a game site praising them for doing a Linux version. Every little bit helps. I'm hoping Transgaming will morph into a company that does LInux ports for game companies, rather than the mess they are now (I can't really be clear what games they actually support.) I'd kick in five extra bucks for a game to go to whoever ported it to LInux. Bioware did it for Neverwinter nights at no extra charge!

About Nvidia driver, because its code is not open and Nvidia fears that its competitors will use its codes to enhance their graphical cards.

Well, I sort of understand this. But here I am, average new user. I can go and get a copy of the driver for free from nvidia, but Fedora can't give me one...or even put it in a repo or find some other automated way to get me there. Anyay, it's another one of those things that should be in the FAQ for potential new users. Here's what that FAQ should be, by the way:

Section 1: Here are the things you are used to doing that FC4 will do as well or better than Windows.

Section 2: Here are things we do better (especially if you are willing to put in a little time to learn).

Section 3: Here are common functions that are not open source so we can't include them (java, codecs, etc.) However, we have these great tutorials on how you can install them yourself.

Section 4: Here are things that are still just not working real well right now for some people (embedded media players, some printers (with link to the linux printing site, which, unfortunately, is written in a not too newby friendly way) etc. And BE HONEST. When I read these forums I think I'm nuts, with, for example, my media problems. Linux.com says embedded players are extremely problematic across the board. Fine...tell me so up front.

Section 5: Games. "Don't format your Windows partition". "Go buy Neverwinter Nights" "Buyer Beware of Transgaming" "Wine is not for newbies, so don't get your hopes up." (I'm sure Wine is great...just not for newbies.

Section 6: The Terminal: You may sometimes need to use commands to accomplish certain tasks. You can do most things without it. Here is our list of fantastic tutorials for those times when you need the terminal commands. Oh, and by the way, if you learn what you are doing, this ability to issue commands directly can give you greater functionality and greater control over your computer than you can possibly get in Windows. (Actually, I'd like to see all tutorials include a link to a how-to as if the reader had never run the terminal before. That way, you don't take any level of ability for granted and you don't have to waste space in each tutorial for repeating the same things.)

Section 7: And here is why you should consider FC4 even though it is not quite as user friendly as a few others. (Perhaps, though, this is not actually a good pitch to make. Perhaps it's simply true that FC4 is not a good place to start for newbies???)

Anyway, just thinking out loud. I was so jazzed about Linux and kept hitting snag after snag after snag. Had my expectations been properly shaped (perhaps my own lack of research is the issue there) I would not have felt disappointment. The book I got, Linux for Non-Geeks (FC1 included), actually advised that I simply ditch my Windows partition altogether right off the bat. Horrible advice! That set my expectations too high for what FC could do. Also I believed the Transgaming hype and was disappointed there as well (nothing to do with Fedora).

I think I may go ahead and get Xandros or Linspire. Can I dual boot and keep my home directory files or do I have to start from scratch again?

Oh...despite all of the above...I think LInux is close to really taking off. I'm just impatient!

Finalzone
10th February 2005, 07:32 AM
I still don't get the stuff about codecs. Are the codecs themselves illegal? Mplayer includes them on their site. Are they in danger of lawsuit?
No: you can use these codecs as users.
Yes: you cannot include proprietary codecs on a free OS like Fedora as a company without paying license fees to the owners. For the why, you will have to study US patent laws.

If I knew where there was streaming video in open source format, I'd go there...but I don't think there's much of it.
People keep learning everytime during their life. :) Open source format for audio/video is called Vorbis (http://www.vorbis.com/)

I wonder if I'll even know if it has the right kind of cable or how to do that.
Why is this so tricky? And the very large number of volume sliders are quite mysterious as well.
Ask a local Computer how to install a CD-ROM drive or look on the Internet. The issue is related to the kernel. For the volume, you can deselect what you don't use. like 3D center.

I'm hoping Transgaming will morph into a company that does LInux ports for game companies, rather than the mess they are now (I can't really be clear what games they actually support.) I'd kick in five extra bucks for a game to go to whoever ported it to LInux. Bioware did it for Neverwinter nights at no extra charge!
Hopefully. There were a company called Loki that used to port Windows games to Linux. Unfortunately, they are out of business. Hopefully other gaming companies will bring support to like like Epic Gaming, Id Softwares and Biowares.

Well, I sort of understand this. But here I am, average new user. I can go and get a copy of the driver for free from nvidia, but Fedora can't give me one...or even put it in a repo or find some other automated way to get me there
It is Fedora team policies to not include any propertary package on their repository. Third partues like Dag, Freshrpms and Livna filled that void.

I think I may go ahead and get Xandros or Linspire. Can I dual boot and keep my home directory files or do I have to start from scratch again?
It should be possible as both distros should recognize Fedora partition.

veritas
10th February 2005, 02:09 PM
Well, I've just about hijacked this thread, so I'll stop that with the following comments.

First, yes, I know about Vorbis...mypoint was that when I'm out there looking on the internet for movie previews or game previews or what have you...it tends to be in wmv or quicktime or real format. Now, where does one go for all the open source video content? Being ABLE to read open source content doesn't mean there's much content out there.

Also, I've installed CD rom drives before, but obviously an "audio cable" is an additional step if there are lots of people out there who don't have one hooked up and therefore have no cd sound. If that, indeed, is an issue, then it would be nice to have some kind of way to check that without opening my computer up. Should a program not be able to detect that no input is coming to it and provide the user some feedback? Also, I saw MANY different opinions as to which of the volume sliders must be up and whether they should be up all the way and how some might conflict with others. This would be good to clarify.

I also looked at the Xandros and LInspire site, and to attempt to steer my posts back on topic I will say that they helped me understand Fedora. What I mean is, there seems to be very little user control. Linspire says you have to be a member even to access their updates (I assume, though, that you could install synaptic or yum yourself but maybe the updates might conflict...who knows.) Their site is quite slick, and could be a model for additional content on this site or on Redhat...a flash presentation that outlines the basics, for example. However, I"m sure some people were paid pretty well to make it. Go and check it out (http://media.linspire.com/howto/kiosk.swf) , though and watch the section on "CNR". Please don't laugh as they claim their "click and run" is somehow unique in LInux. It doesn't look a whole lot different from synaptic to me. But just imagine such a presentation about using Synaptic or up2date. That's a great step to bringing in new users. Anyway, I'll stop rambling now. I'll check out Mandrake and see if perhaps it is the OS I need to start with. It looks like it may do better with multimedia without limiting your control as much as Linspire. This, I realize, costs $$$.

seven
10th February 2005, 04:20 PM
a faster boot.
some graphical intrface to yum or something
a net install option would be great

that's my main stuff :)

sueltraz
11th February 2005, 04:38 AM
I have been using the Red Hat distro since Red Hat 8 and I am very impressed and pleased with the versions of Fedora that have been released. In my opinion, Fedora Core has made itself a very unique distrobution. They have balanced the command line and the graphical interface in a way that no other distro I have seen does. I believe they should be very careful about adding additional GUIfications. They would be very wise to maintain that unique balance. SuSE and Mandrake are very very GUI oriented, and to the more advanced linux user, this can be very annoying. Others like Slackware have no GUI configuration apps at all, this can be very annoying to intermediate and advanced yet lazy linux users alike. The GUI can never nor should it replace the CLI. I think it would be a real mistake for any linux developer to completely depricate the command line in favor of the GUI just to sway the average desktop user over to linux. Lets face it, the average user doesn't know much about the GUI config apps in windows either. I have worked a telephone support center and network side support, and I'm alway taken aback by the ignorance of the vast majority of computer users.

I also appreciate the KDE support in Fedora. I much prefer KDE over Gnome. It really isn't that much of a hassel to switch to KDE at the time of install, and I definitely think they should continue bundling both environments. And on that topic, it is very easy to use non-Fedora provided packages without much difficulty. For example, if you want to get Apache from apache and compile and install it instead of using the Fedora provided RPM, it is really quite easy.

My only annoyance with Fedora is when using KDE (I don't know about Gnome), Mozilla and Firefox will occasionally hang for several seconds (at least the packages from mozilla.org).

Just a little side note, I was perusing some of the posts in this thread and there was one idea that I really hope does not come to fruition (no offense). That feature being Home==Desktop. I really do not want my home directory to be my desktop...my desktop would become incredibly unorganized and messy. Al I have on it right now is a link to my home directory, my trash can, and links to all file storage devices (floppy drive, hard drives, cdroms, what have you)

Fedora is a very unique distrobution and the developers would be wise to keep that going.

Please forgive any spelling or grammar errors.

marion
11th February 2005, 05:02 AM
Forgive me if this has been said, but there's are 10 pages to this thread, and I'm not going to read them all.

I'd like to see ndiswrapper come with Fedora Core 4, and better wireless tools.

snowful
12th February 2005, 10:48 PM
I am the newest of the noobs here. I began researching linux about 10 days ago. I wanted to try a free alternative to windows. I settled on Fedora C3. After formatting one partition to ext3, reading technical online manuals, a couple days of downloads and attempted burns, searching for more online manuals, reading forums where people recommend what code to input (are you serious?sheesh!), now reading where I should have checked the md5 sum BEFORE making the successful burn (ok, what's an md5 sum? Oh, I need to download a program to check it?), reading horror stories of machines that are dead in the water after an attempted install, now researching which bootloader I need to install and where to install it (yikes!) and HOW to install it :confused: .

Damnit, Jim, I'm just a doctor.

Not really, but I do feel there is nothing more I can do. I do not have the resources, or time to continue. My only hope is to pay for Linux.

Would someone please tell me why I would want to pay for another operating system when the one I have works flawlessly with everything I want to do on a computer?

Or did I miss something. Is Linux a techies dream come true.

ninjadoc
13th February 2005, 08:16 AM
1. Better wireless support.
2. Better multimedia support including DVD ripping, DVD recorder recognition, etc.
3. Better audio support.
4. Installation could be easier, but can't complain- used it to save MS Windows drive!
5. Option at start to configure KDE desktop.
6. More options for associating files with right click.
7. Support for powerline networking, at least for Homeplug.
8. Support for speech processing (dictation etc.)
9. More options to dock bars then at top of screen at start.
10. More backgrounds and colors.
11.Up2date is relatively slow compared to other distros; install seems to take forever compared to SuSE or others. Still, Fedora 3 reliably installs on hardware other distros have trouble with.

Firewing1
14th February 2005, 10:52 PM
Better Wine support. Every program I try to install says "Cannot install on win 95" or something similar, except there's no ~/.wine/config file, so I can't change the emulation....

Adesso
15th February 2005, 08:10 AM
More game support, so we can shut the gamers up when they go, but Linux can't ......

Then ultimatly, there will be NO more reason for anybody to not switch over to Fedora..

wfpoulet
20th February 2005, 06:09 PM
Key things really:

- NTFS support in Write mode
- Kernel support for Win4Lin
- MP3 & DivX support in totem
- Native GNOME & KDE looks (in parallel to BlueCurve)
- Faster Linux & GUI boot
- Hibernation on laptops
- Plug&Play support for FireWire disks
- Anjuta, MySQL4, OpenOffice 2.0 included in the distro
- Support & Upgrades for more than 1 year

I think Mandrake has most of that already.

wfpoulet
http://www.byssus.com

bkbryant
21st February 2005, 12:34 AM
Better USB2 and hotplug support for various equipment,ie digital cameras,extternal harddrives,dvdrw.
:rolleyes:

nphase
22nd February 2005, 12:09 AM
give me good xp style dual-monitor support and ill be happy :)

stodge
22nd February 2005, 12:52 AM
Proper SATA support.

(Haven't read the thread.)

veritas
22nd February 2005, 09:09 PM
You might notice how man times a "I'm new to Linux, I wanted a free/open source alternative to windows" post popped up in this discussion. This is key to growing Linux.

The more I think about it, the more I think many of my own issues as a newbie would be addressed by better documentation. What do I have on Firefox by default? The initial homepage is a file that seems to have rather random how-to's. Then, there are icons to go go Redhat sites...primarily for buying Redhat software for businesses. I know they need their money but...

How about a lovely set of online tutorials. For each one of those proprietary issues, such as java or media player codecs, some nice, handsome, brave Red Hat developer researches the best way to handle them and also some of the problems people encounter when installing them. Then, when I come to this site, there is an extensive how-to sections (not in forum format, but html format with SCREENSHOTS!!!!). There would be subdivisions into "multimedia" and "games". AND they will be written with the newbie in mind. Don't write explanations about opening a terminal or using yum in every one, but include a LINK in every one for each of these steps, to other tutorials. "Don't know how to open a terminal? Click HERE" sort of thing.

Nice thing is, in the html tutorials, you can provide the links to the codecs and other files. In fact, you could just about create a tutorial format that would seem as if it is part of the install process. "Interested in having java with your Firefox? click here!"

In addition, at all points, you can explain WHY it has to be done this way. This can be a nonsubtle dig at the world of M$ and others. "Why can't we include a nice codec for windows media player? Because THE MAN won't let us. That's the difference with open source! Keep lobbying your favorite websites to put all content in open source content, but meanwhile...here's the latest info on getting proprietary stuff to work on your system."

So, in summary...better documentation. I think that will address many of the issues which FC4 will not be able to address by providing software.

Firewing1
22nd February 2005, 09:59 PM
Hi,
Another thing I think FC4 needs is a built in EXT2/3, FAT32, NTFS and XFS filsystem formatter/re-sizer. I know there's QTparted, which works OK but I mean a stable one and one that can resize EXT2/3. NTFS support by default would be nice, too. (So, kinda like a Disk Druid that can be started after installation...)
Firewing1

Omer22
24th February 2005, 06:51 PM
how about product activation, spyware, and swiss cheese networks

CrystalCowboy
24th February 2005, 10:08 PM
I'm hoping that in one of these releases my sound will start working again.

raflex
25th February 2005, 03:54 AM
more documentation..... more knowledge......

Lozza
25th February 2005, 04:15 AM
drivers for winmodems. I'm on my 3rd install in as many weeks because various drivers that people have suggested have made F3 completely unusable.

skoona
25th February 2005, 05:19 AM
Its hard to read through 12 pages of posts on this topic to be sure that your not duplicating what's already been said.

It seems most things have been visited except a documentation management and viewer function. FC1 had Yelp or Help that acted as the central help system, and as an GUI overlay to 'man' and 'info'. You could search for and read anything that was in man or info formats; to that end most add-on packages included a man file entry. FC2 immediately killed that functionality which has not been replaced by FC3; I hope FC4 refocused on information delivery to the user that has the capability to include older formats (like man & info).

One Document/Information Manager per Desktop Environment (GNOME, KDE) would be great.

PeTzZz
25th February 2005, 09:45 AM
FC2 immediately killed that functionality which has not been replaced by FC3; I hope FC4 refocused on information delivery to the user that has the capability to include older formats (like man & info).
Actually Fedora Core 4 will have a little bit improved Yelp as you can see in the sneak peek at gnome (http://www.gnome.org/~davyd/gnome-2-10/). The search feature would be really useful. I hope that they include it too, but unfortunatley those screenshots does not show that.

skoona
25th February 2005, 01:17 PM
That looks great thanks for the link. Having man and info back would be very helpful. I just made a CD of Devhelp to be sure I have searchable doc source for programming tools.

Fedora Core is the technology explorer for many distributions and I know this fact makes it risky to develop expectations of sameness or evolution. So far the technology march forward has been a radical revolution; examples being yelp, udev, xorg, 4k kernel pages; all have caused me a great deal to retooling to recover what I though to be basic operations.

I'm not complaining because its also has been fun, and new challenges are always present.

veritas
25th February 2005, 04:15 PM
Yes yes, but keep in mind that man pages are unreadable to most newbies. Let's have some nice newbie friendly docs as well...online or included in the install.

elasticwings
4th March 2005, 03:06 PM
It'd be super kickass if it had a driver for my Gigafast USB Wireless adapter. The one on their website hasn't worked for me so far. I haven't really had the time to sit down and really go at it though. It'd be super cool if it was just recognized like other nics though. :)

jim
4th March 2005, 03:16 PM
offer better window managers i personally can't stand KDE And xfce is too much like kde (without the fluff)
They could offer e16 or window maker etc... preferably e16 and down the road e17 will be the future of linux and other operating systems. take a look at e17 in action and just think in a few years what it will be come
http://www.enlightenment.org/data/vid/e17_video.avi

alan_h404
4th March 2005, 05:22 PM
I hope the Fedora developers do read this, as it is amazing how simple the message is which comes out from everyone's posts. Graphical yum that does hardware drivers. mp3 playback --- is mainly it.

So how about

In the "newbie freindly" "Start Here" thing on the desktop (advance users won't go here on principle, so it won't annoy them). Put the following

Click here to install mp3 support (followed by legal read me)
Click here to install whatever-- you get the picture!
Plus all the stuff Veritas suggested about tutorials etc.

You see it has to AT LEAST as good as XP. I know everyone moans about Windows, but Linux people have to try harder as all the manufacturers are making hardware specifically for Windows. However to bring in the best features of Windows and add much more besides, must be the ultimate goal

bigfootnmd
5th March 2005, 05:24 PM
I would like to see a built in backup program that supports backing up to TAPE and CDR/CDR/W. I would also like see more printer support.

ezeze5000
7th March 2005, 03:31 AM
I would be nice to be able to browse a windows network drive.
i know it can be done because Ubuntu and Xantros see it just fine right out of the box with no configuring at all!

Thanks

Jman
7th March 2005, 07:01 AM
Its hard to read through 12 pages of posts on this topic to be sure that your not duplicating what's already been said.

It seems most things have been visited except a documentation management and viewer function.
There is a "Search this Thread" link below the thread title.

I second the call for more documentation. There already are plenty of documentation tools, from man to yelp to handbook to info to html. There just needs to be more stuff written for them, and this lack of documentation seems to be common to many open source projects in general.

imdeemvp
7th March 2005, 07:10 AM
I would be nice to be able to browse a windows network drive.
i know it can be done because Ubuntu and Xantros see it just fine right out of the box with no configuring at all!

Thanks
And so does mandrake ..... I dont know if its possible in RHEL but I would be really nice to have in fedora core also.

binsaif
7th March 2005, 12:19 PM
we hope thay fix all problems in kde becouse we have many problem in Core 3 like cd-rom or sound

and we need to have default option to chose between kde or gnome

and we hope Core 4 have good support for video codec like dvd movi and divx codec

we need to have good support for 3d games

GoldFibre
7th March 2005, 05:56 PM
When I run up2date in FC3, during the downloading dialog there are text descriptions of all the updates I'm downloading. However, they are only displayed while that particular one is downloading. Sometimes they disappear to quickly, so I'd like to be able to scroll back and see all the descriptions after the downloading is finished.

GospelOfLinux
15th March 2005, 10:33 PM
Some changes I'd like to see.
- I'm with yall on the GUI yum (yum extender seems to work ok).
- I'm with yall on editable menus in gnome (I know, I know, it's a gnome issue).
- Better support for wide screen monitors (allow for out of box 1280x800 resolution, etc.).
And last but not least...
- Replace the nice littel foot/hat with a BIG GREEN BUTTON THAT SAYS "START" ;)

P.S - Flamers, the last thing was a joke.

alan_h404
16th March 2005, 10:21 AM
Yes and if people want to shut down, all they have to do is click, er... START

nephila
16th March 2005, 12:57 PM
When updating the system using System settings > add remove applications it often switches between disk 1, 2 and 3, often rapidly. FC4 should prioritize the packages so that you put in disk one then two then three without having to go from two back to one back to two back to three and so on...

jgionet
16th March 2005, 01:29 PM
this might have been mentioned before already..
It would be nice to have the ability to "switch desktops". The same way windoze does it.. you can choose to logoff a current logged on user or simply switch users. That way the current users session doesn't get destroyed.. This is probably a Xorg or window manager feature.. would be nice though :p

mbokil
17th March 2005, 12:35 AM
Fedora developers please add back in XFCE4.2 as a window manager option. It is so much better than Gnome or KDE and a lot of people are using it. I am bummed out it was removed from FC4. Yes, yes, I know it is easy to yum install it but for new users trying out FC4 they probably will never even try XFCE4.2 if it isn't on the menu. I would rather lose KDE and Keep Gnome and XFCE since they work together so well.

LinuxHippy
19th March 2005, 01:54 PM
A light desktop is needed: I like Fluxbox because of the transparent menus....and it's quick!!

http://www.fluxbox.org/

fc_jeff
19th March 2005, 02:50 PM
There are lot's of good ideas on this thread, and most of it I agree with.

But the ironic thing is, most, if not all, of the stuff mentioned in this thread is already fully available/featured in some other distros, like Mandrake, Ubuntu, Mepis, Xandros, and probably a number of other distros.

Let's look at a few of them:

1. Menu editing - Mandrake has a totally kick-butt menu editor called MenuDrake that edits both Gnome and KDE menus. Ubuntu allows you to manually edit individual menus (adding new items to existing menus). Mepis, being KDE based, has the standard KDE menu editor enabled, and it works great.

2. GUI package manager - Mandrake's RPMDrake, a GUI front end for urpmi, works beautifully. Ubuntu as Synaptic + apt-get installed and configured by default, and it works flawlessly. Xandros has it's Xandros Networks, which is super easy. Mepis has KPackage, which works pretty well.

3. Multimedia - In packaged versions, Mandrake and Xandros (and many others) fully support it "out of the box". Ubuntu, being a totally free distro, doesn't support it out of the box, but makes it super easy to add support.

Now all that said, Fedora will probably improve in these issues (and others) over time. GUI yum seems to be on it's way to a reality, for instance.

But Fedora has it's own advantage over the other aforementioned distros:

1. Fedora is a good general purpose distro. Fedora is solid as a desktop (with a bit of tweaking in some cases), and it's solid as a server (featuring all the major services), and as a development platform (most programming tools featured. Ubuntu, Xandros, and Mepis are all desktop specific. You can make them server or development OS's, with some time downloading and tweaking, but they are not general purpose by default.

2. Fedora is bleeding edge. Fedora has always, and will always, included the latest and greatest of all major software, inclucing the kernel, Gnome, KDE and others. The other distros are not too far behind, but are not as bleeding edge as Fedora. And the nice thing is, Fedora still remains pretty stable. This bleeding edge thing is a wonderful feature for enthusiasts.

3. Bluecurve. Yeah, it's just a theme. But it's a very nice theme, and a theme that integrates Gnome and KDE seamlessly. No other distro has done this. In all other distros I've tried, if I launch a Gnome app while in KDE, or a KDE app while in Gnome, the app looks like crap and totally out of place. With Bluecurve, the icons are mostly the same, the fonts are the same (and same size), and the windows decorations look good in any circumstance.

4. Fedora is stable. Even though it's very bleeding edge, it remains very stable. Only Ubuntu, of the distros I've mentioned, is as stable.

5. Fedora is a great Gnome distro. Fedora and Ubuntu are the two shining stars for Gnome support. Most other distros somewhat treat Gnome like a red-headed step child, if they feature it all. Mandrake does a good job of Gnome support, even though it defaults to KDE, but not as good as Fedora or Ubuntu. With Fedora, Gnome is there in all it's glory, and seems to be fully optimized.

6. Great GUI config tools. Mandrake's Mandrake Control Center is great. SuSE's YaST is great. Libranet's AdminMenu is great. But the various config tools in Fedora are as good or better.

So, while Fedora is rough around the edges, it brings some really nice attributes to the table.

fc_jeff
19th March 2005, 05:06 PM
I forgot to mention some more Fedora advantages:

7. Red Hat is the main distro for the enterprise. Therefore, Red Hat skills are in high demand in the job market. Fedora is essentially the same OS as RHEL, only with more cutting edge stuff. So for those of us who are IT professionals, using, tweaking, playing with, and learning from Fedora Core is great for our skills as professionals, and makes us more attractive in the job market.

8. Documentation/Books - While the installed documentation with Fedora is no more than most other distros, there are more sources online, and more books available, for Red Hat / Fedora than for any other distro. Just walk into any Barnes & Noble or Borders, and you will find more books on Red Hat / Fedora than any other distro. In fact, the Linux books in book stores will divided into two categories: Ones about Red Hat/Fedora and ones about general Linux, and it's about half and half. The book I got most recently, and the reason I'm using Fedora (along with some of the other distros) right now is "A Practical Guide to Red Hat Linux" by Mark Sobell. This is probably the best Linux book I've seen. It is extremely comprehensive (covers everything from installation, using the GUI, using the shells, administration, deploying services, and programming), and it's extremely easy to read.

9. Completely free. Like Ubuntu, Fedora is completely free and is a community oriented project. Red Hat makes it's money from subscriptions of RHEL and related services, and uses Fedora as it's test bed (SELinux introduced in FC2 is now a part of RHEL 4), giving back to the community, and advancing the distribution. Canonical, which sponsers Ubuntu, is using the same type of business plan - making money on services and support based on the Ubuntu distribution. I think that in the long run this will prove to be the best business plan for Linux.

10. Fedora is a good "middle ground" distro. Typically, Linux distros are either "Newbie friendly" desktop oriented distros, like Xandros, Linspire, Mepis, or Mandrake, or they "Linux geek" distros that require lots of Linux knowledge and welcome lots of tweaking, like Gentto, Slackware, Arch, and pure Debian. Fedora is a nice middle ground.

I wanted to bring up these things because this thread has focused on things Fedora lacks. It's good to remind people what Fedora has in it's favor.

It seems that the things most wanted by Fedora users are:

1. GUI for yum
2. Centralized, master repositories, preconfigured (beyond "base")
3. Menu configuration

I strongly believe those things, and many others mentioned in this thread, will come in time. :)

Finalzone
20th March 2005, 01:10 AM
2. Centralized, master repositories, preconfigured (beyond "base")

Base, update, development and extra are the main repository of Fedora Core since 3 version. Tthe inclusion of metadatas in yum allows to easily define each repository in a seperate file. Though it did not please some users in short term, metadatas prove to be very useful at long term because of its flexibility. The advantage is the inclusion of different mirrors of that repository without the need to search on the long text of yum.conf (http://www.fedorafaq.org/samples/yum.conf). You notice how long and complex yum.conf becomes if an users has more repositories than the normal.

sgtbob
22nd March 2005, 02:28 PM
I would like a work feature that would let me view files I have accumulated for years in Win XP Pro. I've tried WINE and am having no luck getting it to work. tried Crossover Standard and it shows a 'tree', but can not access anything on the XP HDD - I have FC3 on a separate HDD.

salpula
22nd March 2005, 04:05 PM
I would like a work feature that would let me view files I have accumulated for years in Win XP Pro. I've tried WINE and am having no luck getting it to work. tried Crossover Standard and it shows a 'tree', but can not access anything on the XP HDD - I have FC3 on a separate HDD.

You could recompile your kernel for NTFS support(I think there are also RPMS for it) then you can read the files on your XP drive, just not write new ones.

salpula
22nd March 2005, 04:14 PM
5. Fedora is a great Gnome distro. Fedora and Ubuntu are the two shining stars for Gnome support. Most other distros somewhat treat Gnome like a red-headed step child, if they feature it all. Mandrake does a good job of Gnome support, even though it defaults to KDE, but not as good as Fedora or Ubuntu. With Fedora, Gnome is there in all it's glory, and seems to be fully optimized.

I agree with all your points but I like this one best. Why? Because I just installed FC4 on my iBook and gnome 2.8.10 runs great, looks great, and loads up in a pretty timely fashion Its supposed to be the least stable but at this point gnome runs wayyy better.

OpenOffice Beta looks great too!

I am in love with Fedora. . . its making my girlfriend jealous ;)

cybernightlife
22nd March 2005, 06:44 PM
1. hplip (HP Linux Imaging and Printing) system as a drop-in replacement for the hpoj, libsane-hpoj and hpijs packages. As of this writing, Version 0.8.8 is available. I have gotten this to work not only with my PSC1110, but also my Deskjet 632C and Deskjet 400 (connected via USB to parallel port adapter).

2. OpenOffice.org 2.0! What more need be said?

3. The latest AbiWord (as of this post, version 2.2)

4. MySQL 4.1, please.

5. Bluefish 1.0

6. GIMP 2.2

...and let's not forget,

7. Digikam, one of the best pieces of digital photo management software there is. :-)

dmarinos
28th March 2005, 08:49 AM
What i would like to see in FC4 ?

- Kernels source like in FC 1-2

- more Fonts installed

- Better media Support (XINE by default ;0) )

-other window managers (windowmaker & fluxbox)

flebber
28th March 2005, 09:40 AM
The most annoying problem with all distro's is the lack of printer support, I would have been able to give windows the flick a while ago except I need to keep it as printer is unsupported.

Firewing1
29th March 2005, 01:50 AM
Portable MP3 Support. I'd really like to get a NOMAD Zen Micro but Linux won't support it.
Firewing1

stry_cat
30th March 2005, 03:37 PM
You could recompile your kernel for NTFS support(I think there are also RPMS for it) then you can read the files on your XP drive, just not write new ones.
No need to recomplie. Check out http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/rpm/index.html

Vinx
31st March 2005, 09:21 PM
The trashbin irritates me. I may be a Gnome-thing, but if I delete something from a floppydisk, it puts the files in /mnt/floppy/.Trash-<user>/. Secondly, if I want to empty the trashbin, there are sometimes some files which caannot be removed by a normal user, only by root.

Installing and removing files is not centralised. I want a x-catalogue, which builds a list from yum or up2date or whatever. It should have a cache and rebuild in the background. It also should track all the installed rpms and dependensies, so it's easy to uninstall. In that list the directory which it is installed should be mentioned. Also if I install a rpm it should automatically download rpms it depends on (after asking). When installing I want to choose between "system-install" and "user-install". installations should be done in one place and not in /etc and /opt and /usr, etc, etc. Shall I continue? Centralisation of configuration-managers should make life easy.

I can go on for ever about the small bugs every experienced user made a workaround for (like sudo empty trash), but they all should be fixed to make a linux-life more easy. All those small fixes gives a FC3.1 but it will be better than FC4.

tonytiger
10th April 2005, 09:57 PM
-better wireless support
-easy installation for Ati drivers
-gimp 2.3
-better FTP program
-good .ps viewer
-better video player than mplayer or xine

Ned
11th April 2005, 03:31 PM
Longer official support!!!

Since Fedora Core is community based, not commercial, could they drop some of the strict open source issues so we can have things like acrobat, flash, java, mplayer, NTFS support etc all preconfigured and working out of the box.

Free upgrade to RHEL for all being such good beta testers (j/k)

Ned

the_profiler
11th April 2005, 04:03 PM
Wine? CrossOver? Cedega?

ianmac
11th April 2005, 07:33 PM
I'd like to see SmartPM included in future versions of Fedora because SmartPM outperforms yum and apt , not to mention it is superfast and resloves deps much better than yum and apt. Read more about SmartPM here: http://smartpm.org/

Ned
11th April 2005, 09:21 PM
-
-better FTP program


Server or client?

I've used vsFTP (server) and gFTP (client), and am happy with both.

Ned

tonytiger
12th April 2005, 10:28 AM
I should have declared. I ment client FTP. I also use gFTP and don't like it for a couple of resons. There might be cure for these, but then again I rest my case:
-I can't connect to every place I can with shell sftp.
-It's not user friendly. For example le's say you are on directory /blaablaa/ and then you reconnect (after it has automatically disconnected you from the server) the directory in which you were changes to your home directory
-I can't drag and drop items
-It's slow

I'd rather use sftp from the shell, but I haven't found how to auto complete strings with sftp. I don't know even is it possible.

Tony

strikeforce
13th April 2005, 12:06 PM
An auto configuration setup for dmix at least. I don't know if this has been mentioned or not. I have a 'cheap' onboard soundcard which obviously doesn't have a onboard mixer so I need a software mixer to get my mic and sound working together.

However for some reason possibly my semi-nubness would prefer a configuration utility that automatically configures dmix or at least a software mixer.

meverhagen
16th April 2005, 09:16 AM
The most thing in fc3 like gimp, openoffice, cd burning, scribus and the most other things already work in a good way.


A minus point is that the downloads of the updates often take a lot of time. An update.iso after fc4 is released would be nice :cool: . So sobody else could burn it for me and send it to me by the post.

------------------------------------------------------
The printer
------------------------------------------------------
Add the libinklevel utility. (it's open source) And some tools for checking how much inkt there is left in the printer.

Make kprinter (cups) the default printing utility.
The kprinter utility allows to ajust the printer settings of the used paper in a complex way.

Prevent the new harware detection to notify me on the startup that my printer isn't on. I will only turn it on when I need to print.

------------------------------------------------
The drawing tablet.
------------------------------------------------
A config utility for my drawing tablet. I now have to start gimp to make my 12 x 12 inch drawing tablet to work.
I would be nice if I could adres a vitual desktop to the tablet.
The tablet is now struggling with the mouse for the cursor. The pen of the tablet should have it's own cursor.
In fact I need tree seperate mouse cursors. One for my ps2 mouse, one for the tablet puck and one for the tablet pen.
I now have to manually edit the xorg config file. I find the editing of this file to complex. A (working) gui interface for this would be a good start.

----------------------------------------------
The browser, internet
----------------------------------------------
Include the firefox plugins. (flash,shockwave,java etc.)
Include Kbear. (for the ftp. Kbear in cool and open source)
Include some php application for the apache server. There are many good php applications.(cms,oeks,phpproject,oxcommerce, etc) Make 'm work right out of the box.
A tool to see who is browsing on the apache server.

----------------------------------------------
The videos
----------------------------------------------
Include Mplayer. It plays avi's, mpg's and some windows formats. Don't forget the firefox plugin, so that these also play in the firefox browser.
Include some video editing software.

----------------------------------------------
Yum updates
----------------------------------------------
A graphical interface.
I wanna keep track of what I installed. Some sort of yum blog.

----------------------------------------------
Tv-out
----------------------------------------------
Something to get the tv-out to work. It would be nice if it would be possible to adres the tv-out to a serperate virtual desktop.

AndyGreen
16th April 2005, 09:25 AM
rpm -qa --last will do the yum blog thing.

RH will not touch mplayer with a bargepole due to the unclar provonance and patent status of some of the codecs used there. And that includes MP3 support in anything.

flash and java have license issues that mean you won't be seeing them in Fedora either.

Many PHP issues have huge ongoing security nightmares that perhaps put RH off having to support them in their journey through the Valley Of The Shadow Of SqlInjection.

Otherwise, some cool ideas in there. I wrote a script for my internet-facing server that emails me hourly (amongst other things) who has been on each virtual domain since the last report. Although I usually don't have time to read it carefully, it's often interesting when I do. And it tells you your server is still up!

Ned
17th April 2005, 03:59 AM
Prevent the new harware detection to notify me on the startup that my printer isn't on. I will only turn it on when I need to print.



A partial solution would be to disable the kudzu service unless you know you are going to change your installed hardware and want the changes detected on boot.

Ned

dnar
17th April 2005, 04:37 AM
Although FC3 now has much more than we had back in RH days (like Alsa, Wacom, lm_sensors etc) these things are still on my wish list:

1. lirc

2. mp3/mpeg support "out of the box" or at least a one click addon

3. Palm T2/T3 sync that works!!!

4. GQradio

5. GQview (still better than Gthumb)

6. eq-xmms (works on ALL xmms media inc ogg, CD etc)

7. A Gnome background changer that just works (in dual-head also)!

8. yum to use my network proxy setting!

That's all for me. :)

Finalzone
17th April 2005, 06:28 AM
1. lirc
Available in Extras repository

2. mp3/mpeg support "out of the box" or at least a one click addon
Unlikely due to patent issues. Dag, Freshrpms has them. Both will form RPMforge which will be new repository in the future.

5. GQview (still better than Gthumb)
Available in Extras repository.

the_profiler
17th April 2005, 03:36 PM
------------------------------------------------------
The printer
------------------------------------------------------
Add the libinklevel utility. (it's open source) And some tools for checking how much inkt there is left in the printer.
Make kprinter (cups) the default printing utility.
The kprinter utility allows to ajust the printer settings of the used paper in a complex way.
Prevent the new harware detection to notify me on the startup that my printer isn't on. I will only turn it on when I need to print.


And.. ink cartridge calibration as well?

FirstDivision
17th April 2005, 05:01 PM
I know this was mentioned a couple times, but definitly a GUI or something for ndiswrapper. Getting the wireless going was a fairly complex affair, something I can't imagine a regular user getting done. Seems like the gui would only really need a "browse" button to point ndiswrapper to the .inf file and .sys to use...

I like the idea of a GUI for yum as well. Especially for entering repo information, that's another area where the normal user might get lost.

That's my 2 cents. :D

-FD

Finalzone
17th April 2005, 09:56 PM
I like the idea of a GUI for yum as well. Especially for entering repo information, that's another area where the normal user might get lost.
Until the official GUI for yum is announced, yumex currently fills the void.

FedoraTomorrow[deleted]
20th April 2005, 01:16 AM
There is a "Search this Thread" link below the thread title.

I second the call for more documentation. There already are plenty of documentation tools, from man to yelp to handbook to info to html. There just needs to be more stuff written for them, and this lack of documentation seems to be common to many open source projects in general.


I would thirthen this motion :P. It isn't that there is no documentation on it, just there is no official documentation, which can clearly (perhaps WITH pictures) explain basic to somewhat advanced topics. Furthermore it would be handy to make a sort of file for windows transitionars (if thats a word) and maybe a tutorial to show how it works. Making it user friendly will attract a lot more customers, plus giving reasons to use it :)

And please don't whine about "it's for hard core coders only" or "if you don't know what you're doing, don't use it". I'm just giving my thoughts.

Finally I would ask to put some more open source software in: aMSN? Wine? (add more ? :)) or make a seporate .iso for that. For example: Fedora core 4 (without extras), Fedora core 4 (with extras) and Fedora core 4 extras (all in .iso format :P) If you would make 2 files it's annoying if you want to burn it on 1 DVD :)

Well keep the thoughts coming!

ow yea maybe include in the documentation a "start to programming" to show that they CAN contribute :)

Ned
20th April 2005, 03:44 AM
I know you guys are probably aware, but for those newer users who aren't - use the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 (RHEL4) documentation. It's excellent, available in pdf format and is pretty close to the current fedora release (core 3).

Get it here and read it:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/

Ned

defkewl
20th April 2005, 05:20 AM
I would like to see Fedora Core 4

- much more faster than previous release :D
- better multimedia support, out of the box would be even better
- slimmer package. Ubuntu did a great job with only packaging in one CD :D

More to come.

strikeforce
20th April 2005, 05:44 AM
I would like to see Fedora Core 4

- much more faster than previous release :D
- better multimedia support, out of the box would be even better
- slimmer package. Ubuntu did a great job with only packaging in one CD :D

More to come.

I would have to agree with Ubuntu being small and very efficient. I have Kubuntu installed on my machine at home and the server being Fedora I quite like Fedora but I found it very slow on my personal machine. Great for the server situation. Maybe they could ask a series of questions to customise certain aspects.

StarQuake
20th April 2005, 11:58 AM
I'm not really a new user, but it never occured to me too look at that information! Thanks for a valuable tip!

StarQuake
20th April 2005, 12:00 PM
I know you guys are probably aware, but for those newer users who aren't - use the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 (RHEL4) documentation. It's excellent, available in pdf format and is pretty close to the current fedora release (core 3).

Get it here and read it:

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/

Ned
I'm not a new user but I never realised I could use that documentation!
Thanks for that valuable tip!

defkewl
20th April 2005, 03:01 PM
I still don't know what makes FC3 so heavy :(
It couldn't be because of Gnome since Ubuntu also use Gnome and it's much faster than FC
I also turned off SELinux and it's still slow

Anyone has any clue about this?

AndyGreen
20th April 2005, 04:55 PM
I think you should say slow at doing what... you mention Gnome... is the slowness you feel that there is driven by slow screen updates? Maybe the problem is xorg or xorg configuration. You need to find a way to measure the slowness in Fedora and say Ubuntu, and say "look, when I do this 1000 times in Fedora it takes so long, and in Ubuntu only half as long". Then not only can we compare it ourselves, but you can challenge the Redhat devs with your reproducable numbers and get them to do something about it. But saying "it's slow" and "it's heavy" without backing it up with a test will just get ignored.

Ned
20th April 2005, 07:23 PM
^^ Re FC3 feeling slow - I agree with you. It's not gnome as I use KDE and I feel it too. For me, apps just open faster on FC2 making the system feel more responsive. It might just be subjective, but that's certainly how it feels to me. And the strange thing is my FC3 system is a lot faster hardware wise than my older FC2 system. I'm yet to be able to put my finger firmly on the cause either. For me, FC3 wasn't much of a step forward (apart from gcc 3.4.x).


I'm not a new user but I never realised I could use that documentation!
Thanks for that valuable tip!

No problem :)

AndyGreen
20th April 2005, 07:30 PM
Well, if the slowness is real, it should be objectively capturable. Everyone sitting nodding in agreement that Fedora is slow without any hard comparision seems wrong to me and leads to mass psychosis.

defkewl
21st April 2005, 06:14 AM
Is there any benchmark tool to test the speed running applications in each distro?

I can't just say it by my experience or just estimating as it would be different values for each person here.

Thnx

Trendkill
26th April 2005, 02:31 AM
a samba wizard not unlike the windows one for adding a network printer or shares.. its the only thing windows still has over linux :/

AndyGreen
26th April 2005, 07:09 AM
What... like

system-config-samba

or

swat

?

Trendkill
26th April 2005, 12:51 PM
System config samba is ok, not great at guiding you through the process, and swat is ok but isnt installed by default, and the samba webpage no longer supports it or has any examples..

dont get me wrong, its in the right direction, its just not THERE yet. although i am about to try webadmin and ill tell you all how that goes. dont get me wrong though, i am happy with it all, i just think the gui side of file sharing/print sharing has a little bit to go before it reaches the same standards as the rest of the o/s, which i think is overall a great o/s.

Pudduh
26th April 2005, 01:38 PM
No, it's not - their main income is from Windows users. That's a given. It takes resources (time, money, people, etc.) to build drivers and keep them up to date.

Yes it blatantly is bad customer service! Its my money thats going towards them developing new drivers and keeping them up to date!

What it costs nothing for them to develop Windows and MacOS drivers but costs a bundle to develop Linux drivers?!

They have no right to limit what operating system I want to use, it is against the law to create a block to competition by refusing to create drivers for Linux and trying to force users to use their ATI/Nvidia Graphics cards on Windows/MacOS. If they don't make drivers for Linux then they are abusing their position as virtual oligarchs to force people to use one standard and that under EU law is illeigal.

Why the hell should I be grateful if I shelled out Ģ130 for their graphics card. If they refuse to release drivers then sod it, I'll return the card, get my money back and use an S3 Trio card just to spite them!

I mean seriously.

*what I want added to FC4*

Really what I'd like is more Wifi support and drivers and also maybe a direct choice at install asking you whether you want KDE or Gnome before you go on to installing specific packages, etc.

Trendkill
26th April 2005, 02:29 PM
UPDATE: apon using webmin with the samba module installed, i have to say this program NEEDS to be installed by default in fc4 , even just for samba. this program not only fixed what i had wrong in my configuration by showing me all the possiblities i had for my smb.conf file, but was also easy to use, navigate and understand. this program is the BEST GUI i have seen for samba yet. period!.

blacknoise
28th April 2005, 07:05 PM
i would like to see Fedora recognizing Apple Cinema Displays automaticaly

Trendkill
29th April 2005, 03:27 AM
actually you touch on something important. fc4 for the imac? mainly just so i can acces open source stuff like open office, the gimp, firefox, stuff like that..

i like the idea and feel osx of a lot, but im yet to use it to a point where i can make a decision whether its more suited for me than linux is, but i love the idea of open source, and more particulary, programs like yum and apt get

imdeemvp
29th April 2005, 07:48 AM
I really would like to see an easier way to install java.....for some reason lots of newbies and experience fedora users are having trouble the java's latest rpms.

Jman
29th April 2005, 06:14 PM
I really would like to see an easier way to install java.....for some reason lots of newbies and experience fedora users are having trouble the java's latest rpms.
Sun's Java can't be included with Fedora, easiest we have so far is 3rd party from the faq (http://www.fedorafaq.org/#java). And the Fedora project is not responsible for Sun's rpms.

There will be an alternative that can be included with Fedora Core as gcj (http://gcc.gnu.org/java/) matures.

imdeemvp
29th April 2005, 06:59 PM
I am not asking for it to be included but to make easier to install.....just 2 days a go a did an installation on pc and the latest java version 1.5.0.02 would not work at all even though the symlink and installation was as good as I have done before. BUT version 1.4.2.06 worked like a champ. Maybe is not fedora but sun's package itself.

So I am just bringing it up.....

helle
4th May 2005, 09:14 PM
can i hope for SoftwareSuspend2 ( http://developer.berlios.de/projects/softwaresuspend/ ) on FC4?

StarQuake
4th May 2005, 09:26 PM
You can always hope :D
I would like that too though

a thing
7th May 2005, 03:57 PM
1. WINE
2. Kaffeine
3. Frozen-Bubble
4. Yum GPG keys preinstalled

jim
7th May 2005, 04:10 PM
Yes it blatantly is bad customer service! Its my money thats going towards them developing new drivers and keeping them up to date!

What it costs nothing for them to develop Windows and MacOS drivers but costs a bundle to develop Linux drivers?!

They have no right to limit what operating system I want to use, it is against the law to create a block to competition by refusing to create drivers for Linux and trying to force users to use their ATI/Nvidia Graphics cards on Windows/MacOS. If they don't make drivers for Linux then they are abusing their position as virtual oligarchs to force people to use one standard and that under EU law is illeigal.

Why the hell should I be grateful if I shelled out Ģ130 for their graphics card. If they refuse to release drivers then sod it, I'll return the card, get my money back and use an S3 Trio card just to spite them!

I mean seriously.

*what I want added to FC4*

Really what I'd like is more Wifi support and drivers and also maybe a direct choice at install asking you whether you want KDE or Gnome before you go on to installing specific packages, etc.



Its called a custom install
you choose what you want installed. it is as simple as checking or unchecking what you want


Now what I want

My F*CKEN PRINTER TO WORK
Lexmark X5150 all in one deal

Sems the only printers that are supported are high $$$ printers in offices that have linux as a backbone to there infustructure. <---(sp) there is a win driver and a mac osX driver for my printer but no linux driver.
Yeah they have the "linux kit" with nothing in there but this is how you do it but no instructions to do so. A big pile of Crap !!!!!

zycao
9th May 2005, 07:33 AM
More flexible customized installation options, say, selecting individal pachages, since fc is getting fatter and fatter.

zycao
9th May 2005, 07:36 AM
I'm glad to see that xfce is added to fc3, but I think we need more lightweighed wm's.

Zero-Override
9th May 2005, 08:02 AM
id love to see some SATA support in FC4

my first post :D:D:D ( I LOVE FC)

pitta
9th May 2005, 03:12 PM
I would like to see NTFS support

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