The Three Things I Hate Most About F17...

[dd_wizard]

1. No Cinnamon

2. No Mate

3. No frippery

Guess I'm stuck with gnomes-hell for now. :(

Everything else rocks. The pure alpha was a lot more stable than F16's was. The recent updates and a non-debug kernel makes it even more usable.

dd_wizard

[tox]

1. No Cinnamon

2. No Mate

3. No frippery

Guess I'm stuck with gnomes-hell for now. :(

Everything else rocks. The pure alpha was a lot more stable than F16's was. The recent updates and a non-debug kernel makes it even more usable.

dd_wizard

Dualboot F16 an F17 that will fix that problem :)

[jakebpg]

1. No Cinnamon

2. No Mate

3. No frippery

Guess I'm stuck with gnomes-hell for now. :(

Everything else rocks. The pure alpha was a lot more stable than F16's was. The recent updates and a non-debug kernel makes it even more usable.

dd_wizard

Agree 100%!

In fact the F17 alpha works 100% better and is getting better with every update then the released version of F16 in my opinion!

F16 was nothing but bugs one right after the other on my laptop. Nothing worked as it was intended for some reason. Perhaps it had a lot to do with switching to system.d that caused all the problems!

As far as Gnome hell couldn't tell you as I run KDE and it rocks with all the new features. It is so feature rich that I could convince many people into switching to Linux with KDE from windows with out a problem after leaving them play a little on a display laptop.

As that one wallpaper says, who needs gates and windows in a world with no fences and doors!

[AdamW]

Cinnamon is under review - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=771252 - but it's apparently hung up at the moment due to having not been updated to build/work against the latest GTK+ 3.

[nonamedotc]

1. No Cinnamon

2. No Mate

3. No frippery

Guess I'm stuck with gnomes-hell for now. :(

Everything else rocks. The pure alpha was a lot more stable than F16's was. The recent updates and a non-debug kernel makes it even more usable.

dd_wizard

Try KDE or XFCE. :) And I agree with you - F17 seems to be quite nice as of now ...

[tox]

Try KDE or XFCE. :) And I agree with you - F17 seems to be quite nice as of now ...
i can tell your being sarcastic

i'll believe it when i see it, assuming they make it work on my system

[glennzo]

Funny how people have totally different experiences with their OS. I though that once the dust settled Fedora 16 was rock solid. Fedora 17 is working pretty well here too save for Gnome Shell crashing once in a while and SeLinux bothering the heck out of me.

[Palooka]

Fedora 16 was rock solid. Fedora 17 is working pretty well here too save for Gnome Shell crashing

Ditto (except that I don't use GNOME - I moved to LXDE when Fedora 15 emerged with GNOME Hell).

[DBelton]

Well, I seem to be having the exact opposite results from F17 :(

The alpha started out ok, except for Gnome shell crashing if my wacom tablet is plugged in whne I try to start GDM or Gnome shell. and things have gotten progressively worse ever since :(

Each kernel update has made things worse, and now my screen goes back to 1024x768 in Gnome shell if it locks the screen, and the monitor gets turned off. When the screen unlocks, it goes to 1024x768, and just opening up the display settings in the system settings panel set it back right.

And yes, I have thought about filing a bug with Gnome on the display bug, but I know it won't do a bit of good. I have several bugs filed on Gnome that have gone without even a single response from the package maintainers, or developers (some from nearly a year ago and some from F17 nearly a month old now)

That is one of my biggest complaints. It seems like during pre-release when they should be looking at iron out bugs, that is when they should be looking at fixing bugs filed instead of ignoring them.

Heck, they can't even get gnome-system-log to install due to gnome-utils being obsoleted (and yes bug was filed weeks ago)


So, my experience has been that F17 isn't even to the alpha stage yet...

Edit:

Things just get worse.. :lol:

I just tried once again to install gnome-system-log. It appears that now a log file viewer is being obsoleted by a disk usage analyser! I think someone have completely lost it and should be committed to the mental ward immediately in the name of public safety! :D


Setting up Install Process
Package gnome-system-log is obsoleted by baobab, trying to install baobab-3.3.3-2.fc17.x86_64 instead
Resolving Dependencies
--> Running transaction check
---> Package baobab.x86_64 0:3.3.3-2.fc17 will be installed
--> Finished Dependency Resolution


And from the Gnome site:

Disk Usage Analyzer (aka Baobab)

Disk Usage Analyzer is a graphical, menu-driven viewer that you can use to view and monitor your disk usage and folder structure. It is a component module of gnome-utils package.


Available Packages
Name : baobab
Arch : x86_64
Version : 3.3.3
Release : 2.fc17
Size : 352 k
Repo : updates-testing
Summary : A graphical directory tree analyzer
URL : https://live.gnome.org/GnomeUtils/Baobab
License : GPLv2+ and GFDL
Description : Baobab is able to scan either specific directories or the whole
: filesystem, in order to give the user a graphical tree
: representation including each directory size or percentage in the
: branch. It also auto-detects in real-time any change made to your
: home folder as far as any mounted/unmounted device.

[jpollard]

There are several problems with F16.

1. Gnome3 crashes when some games are played
2. Nautilus doesn't always remember where icons are supposed to be
3. LXDE doesn't always start, but Nautilus does...

The last updates I applied yesterday did improve things (haven't tried the game run against Gnome3 yet) but this morning LXDE didn't start properly.

As far as the three things on F17...

1) systemd.
2) systemd.
3) gnome3

Oh, and printing on an HP Office Jet G55 still doesn't work, though the printer does need a new cartridge... but the scanner should work and doesn't (device busy). I can't tell if that is related to needing a new cartridge though.

[stevea]

Whether you love or hate a particular rev depends a lot on which side of the porcupine you are grabbing, tempered by the fact that we selectively forget about past wrongs rather quickly.

F17 is "mostly harmless" tho' clearly alpha. F16 seems pretty stable with a conventional number of remaining glitches. F15 - seemed pretty bug infested to me - I don't understand why so many forum members still use it.

I agree with DB that there seem to be some odd dependencies cropping up. I wanted to try removing plymouth recently for a test and it wants to remove dracut !
I also have had poor responses to some fedora bugzilla's. It seems to help to add as much debug/in-depth/proposed-solution stuff as possible (I'm sure DB' did). The responsiveness may depend on package maintainers.


There are several problems with F16.

1) systemd.anything new
2) systemd.anything new
3) gnome3 anything new

FTFY jstick-in-mud.



Four be the things I am wiser to know:
Idleness, sorrow, a friend, and a foe.

Four be the things I’d been better without:
Love, curiosity, freckles, and doubt.

Three be the things I shall never attain:
Envy, content, and sufficient champagne.

Three be the things I shall have till I die:
Laughter and hope and a sock in the eye.
-Dorothy Parker

[jpollard]

No. systemd still doesn't work properly. Test it in a server environment... screws up royally. Things that are documented to run last, don't. Errors message are still lost. Configuration debugging is difficult to impossible.

[Palooka]

Whether you love or hate a particular rev depends a lot on which side of the porcupine you are grabbing

Agree with that. For example, of the three F16 problems jpollard is having:

1) I don't use GNOME (having abandoned it in favour of LXDE where F15 brought in GNOME3)
2) I don't use Nautilus as I don't use GMOME (yes, Nautilus will work with LXDE, but PCManFM is fine for my purposes).
3. LXDE has never failed to start for me, on any of Fedora 15, 16 or 17, or Debian Squeeze.

[jpollard]

I'm not blaming LXDE for the failures yet - I acutally think it may be the way the session is being started by gdm (yes, still using it). When it fails, it seems that nautilus takes over as the only window manangement capability... Not sure why it looses the icon locations though. I'm not even sure why nautilus even starts yet - I certainly didn't expect it.

My wife uses Cinnamon - she tried gnome shell... and dropped it within 30 minutes and went with cinnamon.

Fortunately, this is only a home system. F15/16/17 would be nearly unusable at work for even workstations (too many custom services that would fail due to difficulty fighting systemd to get them running).

[leepaul]

1. No Cinnamon

2. No Mate

3. No frippery

Guess I'm stuck with gnomes-hell for now. :(

Everything else rocks. The pure alpha was a lot more stable than F16's was. The recent updates and a non-debug kernel makes it even more usable.

dd_wizard

The F17 srpm from the repo compiles and works fine here.

[leepaul@main-pc ~]$ rpm -q cinnamon muffin gtk3 cogl |sort
cinnamon-1.4.0-1.fc17.x86_64
cogl-1.9.8-1.fc17.x86_64
gtk3-3.3.18-1.fc17.x86_64
muffin-1.0.2-1.fc17.x86_64

http://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/leigh123linux/cinnamon/fedora-17/SRPMS/

[gflex]

Don't know for you guys, but I failed to run Fedora 17 Alpha in VMWare workstation 8.02 . Tried with default (Gnome), LXDE, XFCE ... none of them was able to start graphical mode. Hope this is matter of drivers and will get fixed soon.

[raveit65]

Don't know for you guys, but I failed to run Fedora 17 Alpha in VMWare workstation 8.02 . Tried with default (Gnome), LXDE, XFCE ... none of them was able to start graphical mode. Hope this is matter of drivers and will get fixed soon.
Try virtualbox from the virtualbox repo. fc17 runs fine with 3D effects in virtualbox.

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:15 PM ----------

1. No Cinnamon

2. No Mate

3. No frippery

Guess I'm stuck with gnomes-hell for now. :(

Everything else rocks. The pure alpha was a lot more stable than F16's was. The recent updates and a non-debug kernel makes it even more usable.

dd_wizard
I will provide Mate for fc17 too, but i wait until fc17-beta is release.
For the moment use the fc16 release rpm. You have change ' $releasever ' to '16' in the mate repo files.
It might be work.

[sdlor]

Re: Post # 17, second part..
Thank you so much, raveit65! Now I won't mind upgrading to 17, (when the time comes).

[AdamW]

jpollard: there's really no such thing as 'run last' in systemd. It's dependency based. If something you want to start requires something else to be started first, express that as a dependency.

Dependency modelling really makes a lot more sense for most services than ordering modelling. This is nicely illustrated by the fact that most admins, when dealing with sysv, do what you seem to do: default to either 'run first' or 'run last'. =)

I rather disagree on debugging, too. systemd rather bends over backwards to provide all kinds of useful tools for figuring out what it's doing. have you looked at the systemctl man page?

[jpollard]

Yup. Unfortunately, it still loses errors.

The problem with dependancy modeling is the assumption that you know all the dependancies...

Unfortunately, the provided information for all services is not known, therefore, you have to guess. Systemctl can only list dependancies that are in the configuration files... but not all dependancies are there (at least, not yet).

The next problem is that not all dependancies CAN be known for a given service. Which is one of the things that happens to NetworkManager when things get screwed up. Complex services have problems here - they may depend on things outside the local system... yet placing such dependancies into the systemd configuration doesn't seem possible. Some workarounds have been done (which is where NetworkManager-wait-online.service comes from).

Which is why rc.local doesn't run like it says - last. If it did run last then most things could be worked around just by putting it in rc.local... The only dependancy rc.local has listed is network.target. But if what is put in rc.local needs name service... welll... failure again, sometimes. Note, even in F16 named/bind is not required by network.target.... so it starts sometime after network.target is supposed to be ready. Therefore rc.local doesn't wait.

Unfortunately. So people keep putting crap in it like "sleep 5" trying to get things to work. And then it works... sometimes.

Systemd makes the assumption that just because a process is started, it is ready for use... Which is not true if it takes a second or so to identify an error. By then, the dependant process has already been started.. and also errors off. At this point, it SEEMS (this may not be true) that one or both of the error messages could be lost. I do know from looking at log files that some messages just seem to be missing.

I haven't even tried a distributed database yet. Too much is unreliable, though I am thinking about trying a single database for a web server... but will httpd wait for mysql to be usable before it tries to start? Don't think so - the only dependencies listed are syslog.target and network.target. httpd doesn't have a dependancy other than the implied network.target. Will the web server try to start making queries before or after the database is started? This can become more critical with a distributed mysql database as it can take a significant amount of time to become ready.

For simple things... it will usually work.

The problem is "usually".

[DBelton]

I believe the problem with systemd losing errors has been addressed with the systemd-journal (I believe it's supposed to be in F17, but I haven't looked to see if it is or not)

And I believe the issue with services requiring the network being started before the network is settled is actually more of a network-manager issue than a systemd issue. (Not certain on this one, yet, though) From what I have seen, it appears that network-manager is telling systemd that the network is ready when in fact it isn't.

I think quite a few of the other issues are more of a "learning curve" than actual problems, too.

Now I do agree that systemd is becoming too much of a "one application does all" which in my opinion is not good. Too much is exposed if there is a security breach, where if it was separate applications, the breach would be limited in what it could do.

(I will know before too long how systemd actually holds up from a security standpoint. Some of the heavy hitters from work have started tearing into it, having a look before it hits RHEL.)

[jpollard]

I believe the problem with systemd losing errors has been addressed with the systemd-journal (I believe it's supposed to be in F17, but I haven't looked to see if it is or not)

And I believe the issue with services requiring the network being started before the network is settled is actually more of a network-manager issue than a systemd issue. (Not certain on this one, yet, though) From what I have seen, it appears that network-manager is telling systemd that the network is ready when in fact it isn't.

I think quite a few of the other issues are more of a "learning curve" than actual problems, too.

Now I do agree that systemd is becoming too much of a "one application does all" which in my opinion is not good. Too much is exposed if there is a security breach, where if it was separate applications, the breach would be limited in what it could do.

(I will know before too long how systemd actually holds up from a security standpoint. Some of the heavy hitters from work have started tearing into it, having a look before it hits RHEL.)
As for the complexity -

A dependancy graph is an implementation of the old PERT chart. Unfortunately, the complexity growth of PERT charts rendered the technique unmaintainable due to all of the interactions within the net.

The ones I worked with (it was a school construction schedule) only had about 30 elements, each having only a two-way link. The systemd list on F16 already has 261, and that is just on my system (I do have a fair number of things installed), systemd also has many more than two links per entry possible (one of the longer has 9 just for the "After=".

I just don't see how the management of such a complex network will be possible. This was why the ordering model of SysVinit was used. It makes such complexity easier to manage.

BTW, fixing rc.local might be possible by adding "After=systemd-update-utmp-runlevel.service".. not sure, but based on that service requiring runlevel[12345].target it would look reasonable. Of course, that doesn't address the shutdown ordering...


From a security standpoint, if they can hit it, try something like a partial TCP connection to a service that uses systemd to intialize socket handling.

One place that saw a denial of service happen was with a modified inetd server - for efficency, was modified to handle all sockets for services waiting for a tcp connection (such as a listening telned service like a kerberized telnetd). In the partial connection, the inetd service would hang....

In our case, all we had to do was restart (abort/start) inetd... Can't do that with systemd without rebooting.

The cause in our case turned out to be a routing error - a connection request would come in one interface, and go out another (both were supposed to have the same connectivity). Unfortunately for us, the return path wasn't quite the same configuration - and the tcp handshake reply got dropped.

The description I was given over the systemd socket handling sounded exactly like the one in our DoS event.

[tox]

I believe the problem with systemd losing errors has been addressed with the systemd-journal (I believe it's supposed to be in F17, but I haven't looked to see if it is or not)

And I believe the issue with services requiring the network being started before the network is settled is actually more of a network-manager issue than a systemd issue. (Not certain on this one, yet, though) From what I have seen, it appears that network-manager is telling systemd that the network is ready when in fact it isn't.

I think quite a few of the other issues are more of a "learning curve" than actual problems, too.

Now I do agree that systemd is becoming too much of a "one application does all" which in my opinion is not good. Too much is exposed if there is a security breach, where if it was separate applications, the breach would be limited in what it could do.

(I will know before too long how systemd actually holds up from a security standpoint. Some of the heavy hitters from work have started tearing into it, having a look before it hits RHEL.)

systemd-journal im sure now is a Fedora 18 Feature https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal

[dd_wizard]

From the page you linked, tox:

Detailed Description

As of systemd v38+ systemd comes with it's own syslog named Journal which is enabled by default in F17 and onwards.


I'm not sure how well it works in F17, but I'm pretty sure it's there.

dd_wizard

[sea]

Havent tested F17 properly yet.
Mainly due to the first and only point that annoys me of it..

1) its 'code'-name

[tox]

Havent tested F17 properly yet.
Mainly due to the first and only point that annoys me of it..

1) its 'code'-name

why the code name?

[sea]

beefy miracle.
To me, this is not a 'serious' code name for an OS.

[AndrewSerk]

Havent tested F17 properly yet.
Mainly due to the first and only point that annoys me of it..

1) its 'code'-name

What, you got something against walking talking hot dogs??

I used to have logo shown on the screen during the boot process for live cds that I made for some kids. They all commented about and said they liked it.

EDIT: http://beefymiracle.org/history.html

[tox]

beefy miracle.
To me, this is not a 'serious' code name for an OS.

nore is Ubuntu's.but who cares , doesnt stop people from using it. prolly would stop Pamela Anderson and the rest of PETA from using it :D

[sea]

WTH has a hotdog to do with an OS?

1) i'm not a child
2) i'm vegetarian. :p

Now get me some tatar with a single malt!

Ubuntu, at least, is a 'proper' terminus or synonym for the linux community.
But aint that off-topic?
The question was: what do you hate about F17... i hate its name ... point!

[AndrewSerk]

WTH has a hotdog to do with an OS?

1) i'm not a child
2) i'm vegetarian. :p

Now get me some tatar with a single malt!

http://beefymiracle.org/history.html :)

[sea]

http://beefymiracle.org/history.html :)
Still, if i want some childisch colored OS, i install either Windows or Ubuntu.

Well, maybe the plymouth bug had annoyed me more than enough.
Everytime i changed the plymouth theme, without rebuild initrd, i got buged with the hotdog, which i just dont like.

[note32]

i don't get why everybody "hates" on fedora for, including gnome 3, well (gnome shell) , yeah i don't like either but linux is so flexible, you can install which ever desktop enviroment you want, i mean fedora supports just every one you can think of. you just have to make it your own. you can make it whatever you want it to be.

[sea]

i don't get why everybody "hates" on fedora for, including gnome 3, well (gnome shell) , yeah i don't like either but linux is so flexible, you can install which ever desktop enviroment you want, i mean fedora supports just every one you can think off you just have to make it your own. you can make it whatever you want it to be.

You misunderstood this thread.
We certainly dont hate Fedora, if so, we wouldnt be here ;)
But there are some aspects of one release one doesnt like, therefor this thread.

[DBelton]

"Beefy Miracle" does sound more like a bad porn movie than a Linux distro. :lol:

[nonamedotc]

"Beefy Miracle" does sound more like a bad porn movie than a Linux distro. :lol:

Hilarious! :thumb::lol:

[dd_wizard]

I find the whole Beefy Miracle thing to be pretty humorous, especially after reading some of the earlier "links". (Pun intended!) For a few more chuckles, google "Beefy Miracle SIG" and check out the links, e.g. Meat_SIG (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meat_SIG) and beefy-miracle-release-notes.pdf (beefymiracle.org/download/beefy-miracle-release-notes.pdf) :)

dd_wizard

[sillav]

The new documents app is hilarious. I couldn't get it to show me a document. I was curious if it was possibly to do anything with the documents, you know, since you couldn't in Gnome3.2. It took me a while to figure out how to close the application so I could uninstall it. Epiphany also had a designer makeover, making it even more useless than before. Couldn't figure out how to set a homepage, default search provider, install an adblocking program, or show the bookmarks toolbar.


I think there is a lot of potential in re-using the old joke 'The Aristocrats', but you change the punchline to 'The Gnome Designers.

A couple designers walk into an office to pitch a new application to a software development company. The CEO says

"Ok, what's you project?"

'Well, we're going to replace the file manager with a program called documents, which is what the user will have to use for finding the files they have'.

"Ok," the CEO replies, "so they use the documents program to find and edit the stuff, how is that any different from the current one?"

'Ours won't let the user open them to edit the files, just look at them. In fact, first we're going to release it so it doesn't even show you your documents. Just a screen with 3 icons. But when you hover on those icons a tooltip won't pop up to tell you what it does. Eventually, we'll have to show them their documents and files, but not all of them. Just some. Like, we won't show them music files, just because. Once they are actually able to see their documents, we're going to arrange them for them in a way that seems best to us, and not give them the ability to rearrange things themselves. Then we're going to open them up, so that they have to look at it, and only then, will we let them launch whatever application they want to use to edit them. We're going to do all of this and if anyone complains, we'll just tell them it's usability improvements and they don't understand because they are either old-fashioned or dumb or just don't get it.'

"Jesus... that's a hell of program. Who the hell are you guys anyway?"

"the gnome designers'.

[AdamW]

A music file isn't a document. Documents is supposed to be for, well, documents - vaguely defined as 'stuff you'd print onto pieces of paper'. PDFs, Office files, stuff like that.

But https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=754516 is, frankly, pretty poor. That's going to take me approximately ten seconds to fix. Ten seconds anyone on the desktop team could have spent in the last four months. Sigh.

[sillav]

I don't use documents and don't know much about it, it was (as mentioned) just a joke. I thought I was in the rants section though when I saw the title, sorry about posting it in the F17 support forum.

[Dutchy]

Hehe, I played around with Documents too but it didn't make sense to me.
Of course there were no documents in that VM so I was staring clueless at an empty window (that had a nice option to enable fullscreen mode so the window became even more empty).
There also wasn't very much action going on in the action menu.
Anyhow, the program might be nice for on a smartphone so you can see al your docs and select them easily.

[DBelton]

I looked at documents for about 10 minutes total, then tossed it into the bit bucket as useless bloat.

Why would I want an application to show me just my documents? Totally useless

[bigflopper2]

I looked at documents for about 10 minutes total, then tossed it into the bit bucket as useless bloat.

Why would I want an application to show me just my documents? Totally useless

completely agree!

the point is, there's a lot of flaming going aroung gnome3 and gnome3 fans always respond disjointed. I understand their anger about the gnome3 haters, there're a lot of alternatives like xfce, lxde, cinnamon, kde, mate...so why be angry about gnome3

but viewed objectively there's no chance working effectively with gnome3 compared to gnome2 for example, if you've worked with gnome for so years and you HAVE TO move completely for gnome3 without a chance to come to an accommodation and the developers just blame you for beeing old school...well, it's pretty sobering.

the problem I have with the developers here is they just completely ignore the criticism with witty sentences like: "gnome 3 is very popular, we've reached a new level of..."

like DB said, "Why would I want an application to show me just my documents"...that's the point, if I want an DE showing me my documents with I can't even work proplerly, so what's that all about...of course we've the free choice, we can use so many DE but if you've worked so long with gnome and they ristrict like everything inventing thing could be usefull BUT the whole surface is just aweful...it's like...what I'd like to have is a free choice inside the so called gnome project, gnome2 or 3, the fallback mode is plain stupid.

[PaulAlesius]

I think you guys are missing the point with "documents"; You can have google docs documents there as if they're local, and work with them like that if you've configured a net account.

What I don't like about fedora 17

1. ABRT has a big chance of leaking passwords to the net, it should be far easier and more safe to search/replace in the information it sends (And give you feedback on the operation...)

2. Managing services in systemd is messy [but I like where systemd is going though]; messy service dependency graphs (We should be able to target a service for dependency information, and specify how many levels deep the graph should go), messy systemctl --full list-units with everything from mounts to sockets.

Something like systemctl list-services, list-mounts, list-sockets with "--full" being the default and providing a "--short" flag instead, would have been ideal

Also, simply do not allow name collisions in systemd and drop the whole "some[.mount]" "some[.service]" part.

[DBelton]

Since I don't use and have no desire to use google docs (nor any other google service, for that matter), then the ability to have google docs as if they are local is pretty much useless to me as well.

I do agree that systemd is a bit messy in how it does things.

Also, I don't really like how it's becoming a "One application to rule them all", either.

[jpollard]

Unfortunately, systemctl would have to perform a full analysis to list the dependancies, since they can be inherited from other services.

And because the dependancies are a network, and not a tree, listing a "depth" has no meaning.

[mkruger]

Does F17 have systemadm or any other tools to manage services? Yes, I know about systemctl....was curious if there are additional command line or GUI tools.

[nonamedotc]

Does F17 have systemadm or any other tools to manage services? Yes, I know about systemctl....was curious if there are additional command line or GUI tools.

You can look at systemd-gtk. You can start it from command line using systemadm.


Name : systemd-gtk
Arch : x86_64
Version : 37
Release : 17.fc16
Repo : updates
Summary : Graphical frontend for systemd
Description : Graphical front-end for systemd.

[stevea]

Uhhh - systemd-gtk is just systemadm and support.