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View Full Version : F17 heads up: gnome-shell for everyone!


tox
4th November 2011, 12:02 AM
As of tomorrow's rawhide [1], gnome-session will no longer treat
llvmpipe as an unsupported driver. This means gnome-shell will run even
on hardware without a native 3D driver, including virt guests.

There are probably bugs! I've done some quick tests on the hardware I
have handy and in kvm, and things do appear to work. You, lucky
contestant, might have a different experience. If you do, bugzilla is
standing by and ready to take your call; please file against the 'mesa'
component and set me as the assignee. In the meantime you can still get
to fallback mode through the Graphics section of the System Info control
panel.

Very little performance work has been done on this yet - like,
literally, none - though there are some things you can do [2]. Outside
of virt you will probably want to tell your driver to use ShadowFB in
xorg.conf. This will disable hardware acceleration, but in exchange you
won't be doing very slow GetImages all the time to get textures loaded
into the compositor. In virt, however, the double-buffering done by
ShadowFB just slows you down, so you're probably best off switching your
driver to NoAccel instead.

The vesa driver should get this right for you already, as should cirrus
under virt.

Beyond that, most of the performance work is going to require new kernel
and Mesa features. For details, please see: Read More from Adam Jackson here (http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-November/158976.html) Make gnome-shell work with software-rendering on most hardware http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome_shell_software_rendering

arowana
4th November 2011, 11:02 PM
not sure if i understand, to make it clear: does it mean gnome shell 3.4 will run on older hardware without 3D graphics card? compareable to canonical's unity 2d?

AndrewSerk
4th November 2011, 11:20 PM
sounds like they are pulling off a Beefy Miracle ;)

pete_1967
4th November 2011, 11:25 PM
Thrilled.....................

ElderSnake
4th November 2011, 11:29 PM
If it really means what I think it means, it will be a great thing for Gnome-Shell.

tox
5th November 2011, 12:18 AM
i think its basically gonna be a 2D shell, there will be 3D one also

bruce89
5th November 2011, 02:58 AM
i think its basically gonna be a 2D shell, there will be 3D one also

No, it's the same "3D" shell, it's just using a rather fast software renderer.

arowana
5th November 2011, 10:18 PM
looks like i really need to get this F17 ... run my old notebook in fallback now ... where to download? :p

zaitcev
6th November 2011, 10:37 PM
I bought replacements with working 3D, so it came a little bit late for me. But a great news anyway. But I don't understand why they didn't do it from the start.

BBQdave
7th November 2011, 10:09 PM
I bought replacements with working 3D, so it came a little bit late for me. But a great news anyway. But I don't understand why they didn't do it from the start.

I am curious too... why this was not part of G3 to begin with? Unless fallback mode was to bridge the gap until software acceleration was developed; though I am still confused as to whether there will be a performance hit on older hardware running the graphic software acceleration for G3? :confused:

So you may end up still getting newer hardware for a good G3 experience.

tox
7th November 2011, 11:42 PM
i dont think there will be a poor performance hit, if anything there will be a Gain

jpollard
8th November 2011, 12:18 AM
I think it will depend on how many cores you have. With two, one can process the graphics. With one, things might be a bit slow.

tox
8th November 2011, 12:21 AM
I think it will depend on how many cores you have. With two, one can process the graphics. With one, things might be a bit slow.

a lot of people nowadays have a Dual-core. i dont know anyone that has a single core

Dan
8th November 2011, 12:29 AM
Yeah, you do. One of my workhorse laptops is an older 32 bit Centrino single core. It may have a few years on it, but it still works, so it gets used. In fact, it's running F15 very well right now. The 64 bit AMD dual core Fukushima Special is the one that gives me trouble.

tox
8th November 2011, 12:34 AM
Yeah, you do. One of my workhorse laptops is an older 32 bit Centrino single core. It may have a few years on it, but it still works, so it gets used. In fact, it's running F15 very well right now. The 64 bit AMD dual core Fukushima Special is the one that gives me trouble.

i do now. the one from Fukushima isnt about to blow a reactor or 2 is it? :p

Dan
8th November 2011, 12:49 AM
Not right at the moment, but I keep the PurpleKŪ handy, and an evacuation route clear whenever I have it running. <..:p..>

In fact, It's the beasty I'm posting from now.

sea
8th November 2011, 01:18 AM
Dan, unless your better half wants Dinowz on it, erease it from that machine, or i'll fear you'll be blowing us all away :C

dd_wizard
8th November 2011, 02:15 AM
Detox, you know two! My wife's laptop is an old single core Dell with unaccelerated Nvidia graphics. It runs F14 fine, until it starts to swap. Then it slows to a crawl.

dd_wizard

tox
8th November 2011, 05:19 AM
didnt think people still owned single core computers.

kpedersen
8th November 2011, 11:09 AM
didnt think people still owned single core computers.

Gnome 3 is certainly trying to put a stop to it ;)

Unless most tablet devices are multicore, linux is going to lose it's tablet position to windows which is unfortunate. Oh well, not much we can do about it. Gnome 3 is here to stay.

I for one welcome our new Gnome 3 overlords, so long as I don't need to use it. Admittedly I didn't use Gnome 2 either due to sluggishness.

Finalzone
8th November 2011, 11:36 AM
There is also Enlightenment designed for old laptop in mind.

tox
8th November 2011, 11:38 AM
Gnome 3 is certainly trying to put a stop to it ;)

Unless most tablet devices are multicore, linux is going to lose it's tablet position to windows which is unfortunate. Oh well, not much we can do about it. Gnome 3 is here to stay.

I for one welcome our new Gnome 3 overlords, so long as I don't need to use it. Admittedly I didn't use Gnome 2 either due to sluggishness.
i think your wrong. Microsoft isnt coming out with anything inituitive lately. AFAICS linux is leading the way in tablets. ( i could be wrong ) there is more technology coming from Linux than there is in windows.

sea
8th November 2011, 06:20 PM
Just wondering if the 'new' Gnome 3.2.1 3d experience is the cause for breaking my current F16 (pre upgraded) kernel 3.1.0-7 to look like fallback mode, without beeing in fallback..
Login screen looks like Gnome 3.0.1, while beeing 3.2.1. (:

dragonbite
8th November 2011, 06:37 PM
didnt think people still owned single core computers.

Ouch! That's all I have (unless the Atom chip included in the Cr-48 Chromebook is multi-core).

I have 2x Pentium 4s, 3x Pentium 3s and a Pentium M.

This is good news! So if my Fedora 16 doesn't work or work well enough I may wait and upgrade to 17 in April.

YeOK
8th November 2011, 06:48 PM
It's great news, I'm sure it was always planned for Gnome-Shell, just a matter of waiting for the software to be ready.

I can't wait to test it out!

dragonbite
8th November 2011, 07:11 PM
If it does for Gnome-shell what Unity 2D does for Unity, it may even be preferred over the full-blown version!

kpedersen
8th November 2011, 08:41 PM
i think your wrong. Microsoft isnt coming out with anything inituitive lately.

Gnome 3 is not intuitive.

At least if Microsoft cannot think of anything new, they don't just release ****...

:cool:

jpollard
8th November 2011, 09:23 PM
didnt think people still owned single core computers.

I've still got two - one old laptop (PIII), and a PII.

BTW, Gnome3 is very intuitive for a UI.

I can intuitively identify it as bovine extract... :)

dragonbite
8th November 2011, 10:06 PM
I've still got two - one old laptop (PIII), and a PII.

BTW, Gnome3 is very intuitive for a UI.

I can intuitively identify it as bovine extract... :)

Are you able to run the full Gnome-shell, or the fallback mode?

jpollard
8th November 2011, 11:39 PM
At the moment, I am not about to try F15 or 16 for my main system.

I run F15 under test in a VM, so I only have the fallback. It works... mostly.

I'll be trying to upgrade that test to F16/F17. I'd prefer F17 as 16 has just as many bugs as 15, and just MAYBE the llvm driver will work and I can actually see gnome3 as it is "supposed to be". There are other things about 15/16/17 I don't like - the overdependance on systemd/dbus, the inability to install normal services, the inability to replace services as needed (mostly for security), and the lack of support for any kind of server operation (if it works, fine, if it has a problem - tough).

One thing I do wish was that the virtual manager allowed for bridging and routing networks. That would make it easier to test server operation/management.

rockdoctor
9th November 2011, 03:17 PM
i dont know anyone that has a single core
That's because we've never met. In addition to the Atom N270 on my netbook, there's the PIII-based server in the back room of the basement.

dragonbite
9th November 2011, 03:31 PM
I just tried Fedora 16 on a couple of systems with different levels of success.

My personal laptop gave me the fallback mode. It's alright, but nothing very grand.

Then I tried it on my work laptop (Live USB) and got the full Gnome-shell! What a difference! It was nice enough I wanted to use it instead of what work requires me to use!

When I got home I tried it on my desktop which tried to run Gnome shell but ran into a problem with parts of words and stuff not rendering (don't know if it is because the monitor is a 16:10 instead of the more common 16:9 ratio).

So if 17 cleans it up for a more consistent experience (more like the full Gnome -shell now, not like the fallback) then I am definitely looking forward for it!

AdamW
10th November 2011, 06:34 AM
There are other things about 15/16/17 I don't like - the overdependance on systemd/dbus, the inability to install normal services, the inability to replace services as needed (mostly for security), and the lack of support for any kind of server operation (if it works, fine, if it has a problem - tough).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by any of this, really. 'inability to install normal services'? systemd still has sysv compatibility and can launch and manage sysv services just fine. 'inability to replace services as needed'? you can enable and disable services and you can 'edit' services by placing a service with the same name in /etc/systemd/system ; systemd will use unit files in /etc in preference to ones in /lib, specifically so you can override the system-provided units. "and the lack of support for any kind of server operation"? You get as much support as you do for any other Fedora package, really - whatever support the maintainer of the package and anyone else who reads bugzilla is willing to provide.

One thing I do wish was that the virtual manager allowed for bridging and routing networks. That would make it easier to test server operation/management.

it does. you have to disable NetworkManager to do it at present, though.

jpollard
10th November 2011, 02:05 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean by any of this, really. 'inability to install normal services'? systemd still has sysv compatibility and can launch and manage sysv services just fine.

It has SOME compatibility. What it lacks is the sequencing between the SysV compatible services and those that are no longer SysV compatible. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Just putting things like a 10 second delay seems to make them work. Complex services (data bases) distributed services (databases, filesystems) have a tendency to fail.

'inability to replace services as needed'? you can enable and disable services and you can 'edit' services by placing a service with the same name in /etc/systemd/system ; systemd will use unit files in /etc in preference to ones in /lib, specifically so you can override the system-provided units.

They don't work properly without hacking the crap out of the independant services. You forget that systemd takes over much of the initialization of a service, second, that all services are started simultaneously, with very little interdependent support
available.

"and the lack of support for any kind of server operation"? You get as much support as you do for any other Fedora package, really - whatever support the maintainer of the package and anyone else who reads bugzilla is willing to provide.

The maintainer of a package is not necessarily the developer of the package. The developers frequently are aiming at general support on any UNIX or UNIX like environment. And that precludes support for the tying that systemd/dbus does.

The Fedora package developer is tying the software to systemd/dbus to the point that it won't work anywhere else.

One of the problems not addressed in the overdependance of processes is that systemd will fail if dbus fails. If systemd fails, the system reboots. The over dependence on dbus for logging means that the errors generated don't get reported. The "status" of a service is also rather shy of information - the reason for an exit is not necessarily given by the exit code - filenames, reports of syntax errors, memory allocation errors...
Yes, it is supposed to be captured... but sometimes isn't. This MAY be a buffer full issue where the rest of messages sent are dumped because systemd can't empty the buffer as fast as failing services generate them (remember, all services are started simultaneously...) but can't easily tell (I'll try to simulate -someday- a bunch of failures with a fair amount of error messages to see... but each message will have to be unique to see which make it and which fail).

The basic problem of systemd is that it is trying to do a PERT analysis and monitoring of the system startup. This is a major problem when it cannot know all the dependencies, nor has the ability describe the dependencies. The only ones it can do are "before"/"after", but time dependencies get dicey, and mean you have to introduce null tasks to put multiple dependencies together. Some very basic information on PERT at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERT_chart

Right now you have go chasing the dependency list by looking at a bunch of independent files (in several locations) just to diagram how systemd interprets how it should work... before generating new events and dependencies..

PERT works for tracking small networks of tasks, but gets slow and complex as it gets larger. This is one reason why systemd is inappropriate for servers. My work was with large servers, many filesystems, LOTS of startup tasks. Easy to represent with SysV, easy to modify sequencing. Systemd - not so much. It is very difficult to properly edit a PERT network and avoid really bad results.

I still see reports of failures, one case was 200 NFS mounts... tried to do all of them at once, causing various servers to timeout due to network latency and delays, then failed to recover. From what I can see, this is because systemd cannot handle possibly extended timeouts (as specified in the fstab file) or able to sum the timeouts properly to compute the proper overall timeout.. (which isn't possible - some may/will be overlapping timeouts others will be serialized). Several workarounds may work... one is just putting all the mounts in rc.local instead. Of course, that also means that any dependent services must also be started there as well -- which defeats the purpose of systemd AND SysV init processing.


it does. you have to disable NetworkManager to do it at present, though.

Thanks. I haven't tried that yet, as my VMs are still under F14 and NetworkManager.

AdamW
10th November 2011, 09:44 PM
I'm not sure why you think systemd has problems with expressing service dependencies, it has a full syntax for this. See 'man systemd.unit', under Options, especially Requires, RequiresOverridable, Requisite, Wants, BindTo, Conflicts, Before, After, WantedBy. (Also all the Condition parameters, some of which are extremely neat.)

jpollard
10th November 2011, 10:02 PM
Because some of the dependencies are not available there - those just make the net more complex without making things any better.

for instance, requiring a remote service to be available - oops missing.
Serializing a single activity (such as NFS mounts) is another.

There are a number of things that cannot be known by the local system.

Even trying to work out local dependencies becomes very hard with a complex network - it requires external tools for analysis, none of which I have seen.

It is just a more complex solution than the problem requires. It is not faster, or easier to manage, or easier to document. It appears to be complexity just for the fun of complexity.

creataphysics
10th November 2011, 10:37 PM
I finally got gnome shell to run on an intel 865 only in virtualbox so far. it's kinda choppy, but I'm sure it's much faster actually installed to the hard disk. i'm also positive it will only get better. amazing job.

edit: scratch that, after todays daily update I can no longer control my mouse at the login screen.
edit2: got it running on a regular partition on disk. it's very fast.

running a dell computer with an intel pentium 4 ht 3.2ghz with 2gb of ram and i belive 128mb intel 865 graphics card.

I'm going to finish the rest of the updates and see what happens. Last time the new kernel prevented my computer from starting up but that was yesterdays build.

edit3: ugh, now everything works perfect except that I cannot use my keyboard or mouse at the login screen.

chrismurphy
19th November 2011, 03:46 AM
i think your wrong. Microsoft isnt coming out with anything inituitive lately. AFAICS linux is leading the way in tablets. ( i could be wrong ) there is more technology coming from Linux than there is in windows.

75% of the market is iOS. The rest is Android. Nothing else is a factor.

http://vator.tv/news/2011-09-22-apple-losing-tablet-market-share-but-still-on-top

tox
19th November 2011, 03:56 AM
75% of the market is iOS. The rest is Android. Nothing else is a factor.

http://vator.tv/news/2011-09-22-apple-losing-tablet-market-share-but-still-on-top
Apple is like Microsoft, always behind the times. IMO i think that story by Gartnet is out of touch, Android will do a much better job than Apple has, there's still Bugs in IOS that Apple hasnt fixed , just search the net and you'll find what they are

chrismurphy
19th November 2011, 04:04 AM
Apple is like Microsoft, always behind the times. IMO i think that story by Gartnet is out of touch, Android will do a much better job than Apple has, there's still Bugs in IOS that Apple hasnt fixed , just search the net and you'll find what they are

Point is that there is another platform that wasn't mentioned which happens to currently be king of the hill, regardless of any other facts including bugs. Indeed I hope Android does well as that might be the only thing to keep Apple on its toes.

Android still has serious fragmentation problems which iOS doesn't have (for obvious reasons), and this results in many consumers running Android getting stuck running old versions because the manufacturer of their handset drags their feet.

arowana
28th November 2011, 09:42 PM
Trying to figure out if running Gnome Shell software rendering is already possible in Rawhide and maybe change the repositories from f16 (with Gnome fallback mode) to f17...

Had anyone success getting Rawhide somehow running like it is described here? saw at fedoraprojects features page, here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome_shell_software_rendering , the percentage of completion for software rendering is stated to be 10%, whatever that means.

arowana
29th November 2011, 01:44 PM
After switching from f16 to f17 i could get a glimpse at gnome-shell on an old pentium 3 notebook with ancient graphics. Of course it crashed and i assume the fallback packages got removed so the :( oh-no,-somethings-wrong-screen did not know how to restart the session anymore. But i am convinced g3 will run an my old notebook, so i will keep it. Nice.

jpollard
29th November 2011, 04:14 PM
That will make it at least testable... when it works.

AdamW
29th November 2011, 09:19 PM
as arowana says, the status in current rawhide is that the stuff is there and it works, but it's very crashy. for a week or so after ajax landed it it was actually working and pretty stable, but for the last couple weeks it's been extremely crashy, to the point of not really being usable. ajax says he's aware of the crashiness and working to fix it.

fallback mode is still in Rawhide. I don't know for sure, but I think it's not planned to go away in the really-short-term. You can still enable it by using the dconf setting or the control center toggle.

creataphysics
9th December 2011, 03:33 AM
What will not be supported in particular?

When this was first announced I upgrade the specified packages and I was able to run standard gnome 3 session.

Currently, with the new nightly updates, it no longer let's me use the standard session. In the hardware-compatibility file in /usr/share/gnome-session I believe, intel graphics some number up to 825-865 are blacklisted.
So what I did was comment that line out. I logged out and then the gtk3 login window showed up this time. I was able to login, but unfortunately every single window I open does not display properly, it's either completely black or white with a shadow border.

I'm going too much into detail. What I want to know is what else should I do to fix this? It had worked properly before the more recent nightly builds, I'm sure there is a way around it.

creataphysics
9th December 2011, 03:54 AM
I asked if there was any way to fix it and if there was a list of devices that weren't going to be supported. So I have no idea why you're giving me a link to that page since it doesn't answer any of my questions.

What was added to the wiki page that was not there before was the Documentation / Release notes, they now state this:

The standard Gnome 3 experience is now available on all hardware. Fallback mode (may or may not) be enabled using the "Force Fallback" tristate in the System Info control panel.

Since this has been added, my standard experience is no longer available. So I'm assuming my device was overlooked or not supported, which is why I'm not asking these questions.

snoze
9th December 2011, 06:21 AM
75% of the market is iOS. The rest is Android. Nothing else is a factor.

http://vator.tv/news/2011-09-22-apple-losing-tablet-market-share-but-still-on-top


gnome shell for everyone! Hope for people who love to surf only.

Try to open a gnome shell and open some file using vi editor. Scroll down and then try to go up.. In my case I don't know which line I am! It is so bad that i have to use silly gedit windows. I am hardcore vi edit fan and it work superb in kde/F16.

AdamW
14th December 2011, 10:40 PM
snoze: that doesn't sound like it has anything to do with Shell. if anything, gnome-terminal, which has barely changed between GNOME 2 and GNOME 3.

AdamW
14th December 2011, 10:42 PM
creataphysics: if you disable acceleration for the adapter via xorg.conf, it should then try and render the Shell using software GL. Not sure what the result will be, but give it a shot.

creataphysics
19th December 2011, 04:11 AM
I only have a folder called xogr.conf.d, I don't seem to have an actual xorg.conf file. so how else would i go about this?

weitjong
2nd January 2012, 12:08 PM
Trying to figure out if running Gnome Shell software rendering is already possible in Rawhide and maybe change the repositories from f16 (with Gnome fallback mode) to f17...

Had anyone success getting Rawhide somehow running like it is described here? saw at fedoraprojects features page, here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome_shell_software_rendering , the percentage of completion for software rendering is stated to be 10%, whatever that means.

Yes, I have successfully experienced that. I just upgraded a test virtual machine from F16 x86_64 to rawhide. The gnome-shell works in software rendering mode in rawhide as described in the feature page. The response is acceptable smooth. Previously the gnome-shell can only run in fallback mode in my F16 KVM/qemu image. Thanks to the performance improvement in Gallium3D LLVMpipe. BTW, my host is an intel i7 and I dedicated one "core" (out of 8 "cores" available, seeing double due to hyperthreading) with 1024 MB. I did not use two cores as suggested by Phoronix.

arowana
2nd January 2012, 08:30 PM
Yes, I have successfully experienced that. I just upgraded a test virtual machine from F16 x86_64 to rawhide. The gnome-shell works in software rendering mode in rawhide as described in the feature page. The response is acceptable smooth. Previously the gnome-shell can only run in fallback mode in my F16 KVM/qemu image. Thanks to the performance improvement in Gallium3D LLVMpipe. BTW, my host is an intel i7 and I dedicated one "core" (out of 8 "cores" available, seeing double due to hyperthreading) with 1024 MB. I did not use two cores as suggested by Phoronix.

Thanks for your reply! I dont know what dracut does without googel, so is that dracut error affecting your KVM install?

weitjong
3rd January 2012, 04:16 AM
No, the dracut problem on the nightly iso build does not affect my install. I did not install rawhide from nightly-build iso. I clone a working F16 VM image and upgraded the cloned F16 to rawhide via yum update (as described in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/Rawhide#Yum_update_from_previous_release).

arowana
5th January 2012, 10:32 PM
No, the dracut problem on the nightly iso build does not affect my install. I did not install rawhide from nightly-build iso. I clone a working F16 VM image and upgraded the cloned F16 to rawhide via yum update (as described in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/Rawhide#Yum_update_from_previous_release).

so, will probably do the update from f16 again on old hardware to see the progress of software rendering. looking forward to it, thanks for your reply weitjong! :)

arowana
8th January 2012, 09:43 AM
Updated this old hardware to rawhide, this time it is stable to use for me. Have not experienced glitches so far.

But..., this time i can not escape the fallback mode, so i can hardly say how soft3d drivers work. I thought old graphic cards are unblacklisted and will run soft3d, but seems not to be the case here.

tox
8th January 2012, 10:26 AM
i dont think that feature is finished yet so it isnt exactly gonna work on all systems

still says 50% complete http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome_shell_software_rendering

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