How can I install upstart and sysv INSTEAD of systemd?

[charlweed]

I've proven that the the D in systemD is for DISASTER.
At first, I thought that the dozens of problems I had with startup, shutdown, and services, was due to my upgrading from Fedora 14. But now that I've tried a fresh install, I have a new set of different problems. Basically DBUS broke after I installed Samba, and no combo of reinstalling either of them fixed anything. So here goes my third Fedora 15 install.

During a fresh install, can I de-select systemd and select upstart and sysv instead? systemd is not visible in the GUI installer. Do I need some Kickstart hack or something? Is this possible at all?
Thanks!

[sonoran]

According to http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general/397540

1. install upstart (yum).
2. create /var/run/dbus directory so messagebus will start
3. remove /etc/mtab link
4. touch /etc/mtab
5. touch /etc/init.conf (not necessary for the last upstart package from updates)
6. add
id:5:initdefault:
to /etc/inittab
7. add init=/sbin/upstart to grub.conf (kernel /vmlinuz-....)
8. reboot

Note that this is not guaranteed to reproduce pre-systemd behaviour - services
that don't package a sysV init setup will not work. So you might just be trading
one set of problems for another.

The only way to escape systemd is to use a distro that still offers its users the
freedom to decide such matters for themselves.

The "spirit of Fedora" is to dance blithely along that bleeding edge -
so instead of fighting it why not work with systemd - enable debug mode,
file bug reports, etc?

Resistance, in other words, is futile.

[charlweed]

You are my hero.
Not because of the info in the post, I tried that 2 days ago, it does not work in an existing install, yum thinks it must uninstall practically everything, and fails.
You are my hero because you made me laugh when I am in a forehead-smashing-keyboard mood, with a paragraph that used the word blithely, AND a STTNG reference.

[marko]

I kind of like systemd myself, each time I update it to the next refresh my boot up and shutdown gets faster (especially the shutdown)

[jpollard]

7. add init=/sbin/upstart to grub.conf (kernel /vmlinuz-....)


Alternatively, you can make a symbolic link from /sbin/init (which points to /bin/systemd) to /sbin/upstart

Then just reboot.

[sonoran]

Not surprising that uninstalling systemd is suicidal in Fedora. As in Alien,
It's got a wonderful defense mechanism - you don't dare kill it.

Fedora has long since abandoned Unix modularity for "Poettering Lock-in".
Try uninstalling pulseaudio from Fedora.

I can only reiterate, there are still Linux distros that allow you to decide
what init system and what sound system you want to use. And those choices
include systemd and pulseaudio - the "all or nothing" aspect of this in Fedora
is purely artificial.

[DBelton]

I agree, sonoran.

You can elect not to install pulseaudio (and probably systemd as well, I don't know about it, though.)

But once it is installed, removing it is a pain in the butt. It tries to remove everything else with it.

[charlweed]

Ok, so right now I'll consider sonoran Demi Sanctus . That entitles sonoran to some free drinks when visiting the Northern S.F. Peninsula, but only at a bar of my choice. This F-15 install is replacing Ubuntu. Which is a great distro in many ways, but tons of work when you are trying to replace a Windows 2xxx suite of servers, which really does have diamond teeth and acid blood.

Thanks to the folks who are detailing a post-install retrofit of upstart, but have you actually tried it and made it work? As I said above, when I tried it, yum unzips the whole distro. There is nothing left of Fedora if you try and install upstart over systemd.
In The Past, I found that Fedora was much more flexible in an initial install then when trying to resolve dependencies in a running system. Thats what I am hoping for now.

[jpollard]

Not surprising that uninstalling systemd is suicidal in Fedora. As in Alien,


Fedora has long since abandoned Unix modularity for "Poettering Lock-in".
Try uninstalling pulseaudio from Fedora.

I can only reiterate, there are still Linux distros that allow you to decide
what init system and what sound system you want to use. And those choices
include systemd and pulseaudio - the "all or nothing" aspect of this in Fedora
is purely artificial.

That isn't quite true - it is the dependency list processing that tries to remove everything. It always has.

If the removal allowed options on how far/wide to remove went then things would be better.

The problem is that systemd depends on nearly everything, so there are no "independent" trees that would limit the removal.

It is the overdependence that systemd has that I don't like. The lack of modularity is what makes systemd a potential catastrophe when any little thing doesn't work. This is what causes so many problems with boot and shutdown.

The only way to really live with it is to install both upstart and systemd, then use the one you want.

[stoat]

but have you actually tried it and made it work?I tried those steps. My init screen was so full of [FAILED]s that I decided to abort the whole idea.



so instead of fighting it why not work with systemd - enable debug mode,
file bug reports, etc?Isn't that what rawhide is for? Maybe systemd should still be there.

[Firewing1]

For what it's worth, you may want to try backing up your documents and doing a clean install of F15. I've installed it a few times from the Live installation media (I just kept my /home partition and overwrote the /boot and / partitions) and I've had no problems with systems on a range of machines from ~4 years old to brand new.

[sonoran]

That isn't quite true - it is the dependency list processing that tries to remove everything. It always has..

Good point. What I had in mind about modularity is the Arch implementation of systemd, which consists of 3 packages that can be plugged into the system (and unplugged as easily). My point was that systemd itself does not require Fedora's inoperable-cancerous-tumor method of deployment. That's a choice made by Fedora.

From a code and conceptual standpoint I like systemd and have had no problems with it - but I'm not a sysadmin or samba user.

@charlweed: Free drink? I'll be there. :D

[facejoke]

Mr Systemd developers,
I understand you encourage fedora users to use systemd, but:
- I heard thousands time that Fedora is a desktop system
- If it's a desktop system so most of users are not sysadmin neither developers nor hackers
- Majority of users have use habit and are trying to not spend a lot of time to configure their
system, it means that once it works, they don't want to touch it anymore because IT WORKS.

So can you tell me WHY, you take people as silly by forcing installing systemd in fedora 15 upgrade, without note, warnings, being know that systemd is not compatible with all LSB ?
I't a serious mistake to reach new linux users and help current users to like fedora developers...