System requirements - Graphics Card

[PossibleConvert]

Trying to make sense of this Linux stuff, by trying to install Fedora 14. First impressions are it’s a parallel universe populated by those who hark back to the era of Windows 3.1 / DOS, and earlier, where command line instructions and messing around with .ini files was all the rage.

Which might all be a great little hobby to go back to, being more 'at one, and intimate' with my machine and learning a new skill to take some pride in, but all it means so far is my patience is being really tested by needing to learn it all from scratch!

The installation guides seem to suggest that if your graphics card is not good enough then the installation will default to the text based one. Which is what happened in my case. I can get to the login prompt after the installation, but that's the point where it gets really frustrating in having my machine think it’s a mid 1980s Commodore 64 or something!! Never mind PEEK and POKE, I just want to THUMP or KICK it.

I read somewhere I should start X Start to start the GUI. Nope, x start or xstart doesn't do anything. I then read that only works if I had installed X Windows. Can't find where or how I install X Windows though! I then read, as I say, things default to purely text if your graphics card is not good enough, but then I can't find anything about what the minimum spec is. Seems odd that a card that can cope with Windows can't work with a system as basic as linux/fedora with its frustrating command line-intensive way of working.

Anyone know:
- what the minimum graphics card spec is to enable GUI?
- how to install this X Windows thing?

[rowanp28]

frst things first what are you installing from? is it a live cd or the full dvd installer?
graphics wise anything can work even down to a ati rage 128 with its massive 8mb of memory.
su -c 'nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf
enter that into the comand prompt, look for the Section "device" and change whatevers in speach marks after driver to "vesa" then to try getting to a gui
startx
once your there you can start to figure whats going on in a more "windows" like environment
also what Graphics are you using?

---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 AM ----------

if no gui is available then you need to
su -c 'yum groupinstall "X Window System"'
su -c yum groupinstall "GNOME Desktop Environment"
and try again

[PossibleConvert]

Ok, thanks. Shall try again tomorrow. Downloaded a full DVD iso from what I thought was some sort of official Fedora website. Took a lot of hunting around, as it kept at first offering only a lighter weight version of c.600MB, that just froze after the multi-coloured expanding bar thing crept across the bottom of the screen towards end of installation, instead of the c.3.5GB DVD ... which does the multi coloured bar trick only to then, as I said, present me with a login prompt.

Next dumb question then, though not an unreasonable one I'd argue ... should I look to type your suggested instructions in after I've done the login (for which I guess my user name is "root" ... or am I missing something there too?) or does this "su" stuff need go into a line somewhere within a file somewhere within the iso?

[rowanp28]

the above would only come into play once you have an installed system
the 600mb cd from here http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora is all you should need. you may have been unlucky and got a corrupt download or a bad cd. use the "check installation medium" option when you boot from the cd to ensure theres no errors on the disk. it should be obvious where it is when the cd loads:D

[bob]

Just a suggestion, but with the level of frustration you've already expressed, I'd suggest your first effort with linux should be here: http://www.linuxmint.com/

Why? Well, Fedora is a FOSS (Free & Open Source) distro, which means that a lot of the codecs you're used to having are copyrighted and a bit more difficult to set up for Joe Average. It also means that your graphics card may need to be set up manually. Oh sure, we've got a ton of guides (look up there, for instance), but I really think that Fedora may be something you try in a few months, once you're convinced that linux works well for you.

Mint is an excellent distro and is configured to do it all for you, up front and easy. Your choice of many different variations, from the "lightweight" lxde and Xfce to the stable versions of Debian and Mint10 and the more-Windows-like KDE.

In any case, this is a fun trip, not a chore, so take it easy and explore a bit.

[PossibleConvert]

Well, for your amusement (I notice the relase of Fedora I have is called Laughlin, after all) I typed "root" at the user name, because that seemed the clever thing to do, then my password.

That changes the prompt to

[root@localhost ~]#

so I put in the suggested

su -c 'nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf

and that drops the line from [root@localhost ~]# down to a simple >

Promising, me thinks.

So I continue with startx.

Nothing happens.

I continue with

su -c 'yum groupinstall "X Window System"'
su -c yum groupinstall "GNOME Desktop Environment"

Nothing.

Just >

I could write

> This is a waste of time
> And its absolutely dismal that a 3.5GB installation file for an OS in the 21st Century
> Can't manage to be more user friendly

and it would still just merely return a ">".

What exactly is the fascination with Fedora / Linux ??!?!?!?! A 1983 Oric-1 was more responsive than this (just).

[sidebrnz]

The command su is used to switch user, generally to root. Using "su -c" only changes it for one command. As you've already logged in as root, you don't need to use it. Try it this way:

yum groupinstall "X Window System"
yum groupinstall "GNOME Desktop Environment"

and see what happens. Good luck!

[marriedto51]

PossibleConvert: the problem is that you have not typed the last single-quote character. So: make sure you enter
su -c 'nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf'
and not just
su -c 'nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf

(Without that closing quote mark, everything else you type is regarded as part of the same command. Nothing will happen unless or until you type another single quote.)

That said, using the computer is meant to be fun or at least productive. If this way of using it is annoying to you, I would personally suggest you try something else.

I hate sowing: I sometimes have to sow on a button or a patch, but I hate it. My mother-in-law sows for hours on end and apparently enjoys it. We don't all have to be fascinated by the same things! ;)

[markkuk]

If you are already logged in as root, then using "su -c" is redundant. You can just type in the commands without enclosing them in single quotes. Trying to edit xorg.conf with nano is pointless because the file doesn't normally exist in F14. If you want to get from minimal text mode installation to full graphical desktop, the following steps are needed before you can"startx":
1. configure and enable networking
2. install graphics card drivers if necessary
3. install the desktop environment of your choice (Gnome, KDE, LXDE or XFCE)

[rowanp28]

PossibleConvert: the problem is that you have not typed the last single-quote character. So: make sure you enter
su -c 'nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf'
and not just
su -c 'nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf

(Without that closing quote mark, everything else you type is regarded as part of the same command. Nothing will happen unless or until you type another single quote.)

That said, using the computer is meant to be fun or at least productive. If this way of using it is annoying to you, I would personally suggest you try something else.

I hate sowing: I sometimes have to sow on a button or a patch, but I hate it. My mother-in-law sows for hours on end and apparently enjoys it. We don't all have to be fascinated by the same things! ;)

oops my bad:doh:

[PossibleConvert]

Well, progress report ...

Tried all that nano and yum stuff, with and without the ' ... and without much success.

Without the ' I got something about cannot find the path to something, and a message about [something].dll came up, but I had no idea what it was trying to find on the path it couldn't find, nor how to change the path.

Next I rebooted with the install DVD and noticed I had been choosing the first option, which was something about a New Install, but I noticed the second option was something about installing with a basic video driver. That in fact sounded more like what I wanted.

But that didn't make any difference.

During the installation I saw a momentary message about cannot start X system, or something like that

So then I thought I'd try Ubuntu. I noticed they claim to offer a server OS complete with other packages in a LAMP that will fit on a CD whereas these Fedora folk take five or six times the installation file size to achieve nothing.

But no.

Something about cannot start video driver in ubuntu.

Which takes me back to the very first question - what's the minimum spec for this Linux stuff?

Took the graphics card out. Its a 4MB PCI Creative Labs Graphics Blaster Exxtreme PCI Video Card. model no CT6610. A few years old now, but works fine for Windows XP!

The motherboard I'm trying to set this lot up on - a Supermicro P4DC6+ has a 4x AGP Pro slot so shall have a look on ebay for something cheap and cheerful that might yet put a bit of life into things

[marko]

Well, progress report ...

Tried all that nano and yum stuff, with and without the ' ... and without much success.

Without the ' I got something about cannot find the path to something, and a message about [something].dll came up, but I had no idea what it was trying to find on the path it couldn't find, nor how to change the path.


You need to become root with su -

Note that su -c "command here" is nothing like su -

the former just runs one command, the latter makes a persistent shell session but with the environment of the target user, since the target user was empty/blank, it defaults to root

the dash makes su (switch user) pull in the root's full environmental details, the important one here is the root's path so it can find all the exe files needed here and libraries you needed. If you just use the switch user command without the - flag, it doesn't import the environment and the usual user account in Fedora doesn't have the same path as root (for security/ safety reasons)


Next I rebooted with the install DVD and noticed I had been choosing the first option, which was something about a New Install, but I noticed the second option was something about installing with a basic video driver. That in fact sounded more like what I wanted.

But that didn't make any difference.

During the installation I saw a momentary message about cannot start X system, or something like that

So then I thought I'd try Ubuntu. I noticed they claim to offer a server OS complete with other packages in a LAMP that will fit on a CD whereas these Fedora folk take five or six times the installation file size to achieve nothing.


If you install from the Installation DVD, you can pretty easily strip down the stuff you think is unnecessary, the easiest way to do that would be to select "Minimal" installation. Or you another easy way is to boot the Live CD, and then run the "Install to Hard disk" icon from the Gnome desktop you land in. Another way is to check the "Customize Now" box from the DVD and uncheck the groups you don't need.

Since the CD is so much smaller than the DVD it has much less code. Fedora in general is bigger than Ubuntu because they have radically different design goals. Fedora is the cutting edge test bed and development platform for Red Hat Enterprise while Ubuntu is trying to be a basic user desktop.

[markkuk]

Which takes me back to the very first question - what's the minimum spec for this Linux stuff?
A SVGA card and monitor with 800x600 resolution.

Took the graphics card out. Its a 4MB PCI Creative Labs Graphics Blaster Exxtreme PCI Video Card. model no CT6610.
The important thing to know for Linux compatibility of any card is the chipset type, not the marketing name. Creative Labs is one of the manufacturers with a bad habit of changing the hardware configuration of their cards without bothering to change either the name or model number. According to this page (http://moon.hanya-n.org/comp/alpha/hct/graphics.html) the card could be 3Dlabs Permedia 2 -based, so it should work with the xorg-x11-drv-glint driver included in Fedora (and Ubuntu). For some reason it doesn't get correctly detected in your system. The output when attempting to "startx", various log files and "lspci" output could help diagnosing the problem but that's probably too much to ask from a Linux beginner.

[PossibleConvert]

A SVGA card and monitor with 800x600 resolution.

The important thing to know for Linux compatibility of any card is the chipset type, not the marketing name. Creative Labs is one of the manufacturers with a bad habit of changing the hardware configuration of their cards without bothering to change either the name or model number. According to this page (http://moon.hanya-n.org/comp/alpha/hct/graphics.html) the card could be 3Dlabs Permedia 2 -based, so it should work with the xorg-x11-drv-glint driver included in Fedora (and Ubuntu). For some reason it doesn't get correctly detected in your system. The output when attempting to "startx", various log files and "lspci" output could help diagnosing the problem but that's probably too much to ask from a Linux beginner.

Hmmm, well, apparent on-screen output when StartX in Fedora was either nothing or gobbledegook, and in anycase I have since given up on Fedora and am trying Ubuntu.

In Ubuntu I got some sort of start-of-installation error like gftdisplay.dll not found, or something like that, but a quick Google told me you just type HELP to kick start the installation again, and sure enough that happened. Installation proceded with various Yes / No prompts, then it restarted after completing installation and reverted to a meaingless command line prompt. I thought I'd try the same StartX trick, which at first didn't do anything but at least Ubuntu prompts you with what to type to get StartX working. So I did that, then tried StartX again and amongst other things it came up with a message about screen found but cannot display ... and something about cannot work at depth 24. Further Googles gave some clues but decided to switch this stupid 1980s-teenage-boys-in-their-bedrooms-design-their-own-operating-system off again for the night and shall try again when I get a new, larger memory, graphics card and some renewed patience to p*^& around with this steam and sellotape driven Linux rubbish to see if that helps finally crack it.

[DBelton]

stupid 1980s-teenage-boys-in-their-bedrooms-design-their-own-operating-system


ummm.. that was Bill Gates and DOS.. and a garage instead of a bedroom.. :D

[sidebrnz]

At this point, there are three things you need to know: first, everything in Linux is case sensitive, meaning that the command to start the GUI is startx, not StartX. Second, only Windows uses .dll files, so Ubuntu wouldn't give such an error message, although what you saw was probably the equivalent. Last, now that you've installed Ubuntu, you'll need to ask for help at http://ubuntuforums.org/ instead, where you should find all the help you'll need, as that forum is very active. Good luck, and I hope you come back to Fedora once you learn how to use Linux!

[PossibleConvert]

Progress report: Bought a better graphics card from ebay.

By now I decided to try Ubuntu, so installed that. Things went much better thanks to the video card now meeting the unpublished minimum spec whereas self evidently the previous card did not. Two snags with Ubuntu are, for various things, it asks for the root password yet every search on Google tells me it doesn't have one. Also, it keeps asking or urging me to download updates ... which then take about two or three hours to download and install. Does that constant downloading and upgrading ever end ....???

So, thought I'd return to Fedora as at least that lets me enter a root password of my choosing during set up and from very cursory knowledge and reading of Fedora it just seemed the better bet.

Fedora, with my "new" graphics card seemed at first to be quite a polished and impressive product with its various set up screens that were previously all hidden from me by "dud" video card before now. Set up churned away, prompting me for various choices along the way, and then .... reboots and presents me with a message "No root device found. Boot has failed, sleeping forever".

Brilliant.

What exactly IS it about Linux that so good (if anything)?

I would imagine it is to computers what amateur radio and make-your-own-shortwave-radio was in the 1920s or 30s and 40s and maybe 50s. MS Windows broadly speaking works and is comparatively speaking a truly excellent product, so hey, let’s invent a hobbyists' timewaster that doesn't work just for the hell of something to play and tinker with!!!! It seems to me Linux is a completely pointless time absorbing pasttime (that I'm being drawn into!) that, aside from amateur radio, is perhaps similar to train spotting, dungeons & dragons, second life, and other fat single losers' hobbies.

[rowanp28]

As this seems to be someone unwilling to learn and obviously their hardware works flawlessly in windows there is no point trying to help.
Mods should close this thread before new users are scared off by the very down approach to a perfectly good Os.

[PabloTwo]

What exactly IS it about Linux that so good (if anything)?
I don't think anyone can really directly answer that question. Linux is different things to different people (aside from being just another computer OS). What it is for you, well, you'll have to make that discovery for yourself.

Any "first encounter" with Linux, even when things go well, still presents a fairly steep learning curve, especially when one wants, or needs, to enter the domain of the "command line" and has no previous experience at such. If that first encounter goes badly, as it has done for you, and did for me when I first installed FC5), that learning curve goes from steep to sheer vertical.

I had no "GUI" at the beginning (had to install in text mode and do everything at "the console" until the proper Nvidia drivers were installed). I don't recall belittling anyone along the way when asking for help and assistance here on this forum (from Windows).

You're MO seems to be to just walk right up to the Cyclops and poke your finger into his eye, than ask him if he can spare you a dime for a cup of coffee. Uh, that never worked well for me when I tried it a long long time ago.

Despite your overall sarcastic tone, the fact that you're back here now and still "at it" give me reason to think you might be able to keep the Forum ID moniker of "PossibleConvert" rather than have it changed to "ImPossibleConvert". I never intended to make Linux my main OS, but it didn't take long at all before I was "sucked in" in a big way.

I wouldn't recommend closing this thread on the OP just yet, he may become a convert yet. But I would suggest to the OP that he lighten up on the sarcasm and derogatory tomes if he expects to continue to receive help here

[PossibleConvert]

As this seems to be someone unwilling to learn and obviously their hardware works flawlessly in windows there is no point trying to help.
Mods should close this thread before new users are scared off by the very down approach to a perfectly good Os.

... or candid genuine experiences and conclusions that any other new user would also experience! A seemingly successful install that culminates in "No root device found. Boot has failed, sleeping forever" .... FOREVER, take note! .... is hardly what I would call a perfectly good OS! If whoever programmed that can come up with the amusing line that the computer's just going to hang there "forever" then surely they could have given a more descriptive error message. I notice, in Ubuntu, for instance that typing something on the command line that it can't understand gives a suggestion of what instruction to type to possibly achieve what it is you might have been wanting to do. Quite clever.

I'm not necessarily saying I disapprove of Linux for what it is but I'm merely highlighting some pretty fundamental some shortcomings I've encountered from what claim to be near-finished, useable, packages when if they were sold/licensed there would clearly be some angry people wanting their money back. I thought it was supposed to be a system that evolves through being open source, so surely feedback is welcomed?

Going back twenty, thirty, forty, plus years to scratching around with command line instructions, and tweaking the equivalent of .ini files and other low level stuff to get even the most basic of basic functions working does make for a satisfying little hobby in perhaps the same way as making a model railway or your own furniture might but I guess I'm just (pleasantly) surprised to find all this going on in the computer world of all things.

Anyway, I only really came to all this Linux stuff because I was fascinated by MediaWiki and was having trouble getting it to install on Windows Server and all the blurb suggested the creators of MediaWiki only really intended it to work on Linux anyway. But with Linux being such a jumble of works in progress such that there are even on the MediaWiki website several different versions of supposedly 'the' way to install it clearly it was a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

[sidebrnz]

"Sleeping forever" is just the equivalent of the WinNT Blue Screen Of Death. You're expected to reboot your computer at that point, possibly after getting some instructions on what to do. And, unlike Fedora, Ubuntu is designed to be new-user friendly.

The fact that you've had some trouble getting Fedora to work on your computer is no evidence that Fedora's badly designed or programmed when compared to the hundreds of thousands of people who've installed it without the slightest hiccup over the last few years.

Last, searching the forum on your error message brings up 52 different threads that might have an answer for you at http://fedoraforum.org/forum/search.php?searchid=13354122 if you're interested in trouble-shooting what went wrong instead of just crying about it.

[blackplague1347]

I think this thread exemplifies why most Linux users don't recommend that those who are interested in Linux start out with Fedora. Someone recommended Mint earlier. Probably a better starting point if, somehow, Ubuntu is too much to handle.

To put it in perspective, be glad this isn't Slackware or Gentoo ;)

[rowanp28]

ha ha! tired slackware and even LFS but hit brick walls on both which were both tricky to get help on due to only having the one comp:rolleyes:
but yeah as others have said (now im not in such a bad mood) Its all about what works for YOU for some its fedora, some ubuntu but must agree that mint is a good beginners choice and will work on almost anything.
regarding the boot issue, Are you sure your hard drive has no Bad blocks also a little more info on hardware would certainly help. A graphics card from ebay could be anything and is really like russian roulette regarding what you bought and what you actually got

[PossibleConvert]

Right, well ... got answer for my wish to try MediaWiki. Having spent ages trying the various instructions on how to install it on MS IIS without success I turned to Linux and wasted however many hours, days, weeks, trying to get to grips with it. However, the answer is simple. MS Windows Server. Disable IIS. Install WampServer2, copy the MediaWiki files across to the www root. Hey presto! Very easy. I might yet be converted to Linux but right now I can't see why anyone in their right mind need be!

[rowanp28]

better the devil you know i guess:D

[stoggy]

Bill didnt make DOS he made Basic. He bought DOS. Apple was made in a garage.

unix was never intended to be user friendly it has become more user friendly to promote adoption. The power of linux is not from its gui but from the command line. if you are expecting amazing things from the gui you are going to be dissappointed. Its not bad and their are some neat window managers that do some cool things. But its still point and click and copy and paste. For the amount of work it takes versus windows the only benefit will be that it is free.

It is the command line, the one that makes you think of the 1980s, that blows anything and everything you can do with windows away.

i use linux as my desktop. i use a gui because it allows me to open more then one command line on the same screen.