Why Linux is beat by windows

[XPFTP]

will i foudn the reason why linux is bet by windows .... the man's and how to's r not wrote for the simple person or newbie to linux..... when one ask for help the answers r in other words far form lackin.... some folks do not understand things and they try adn learn.... but it is very hard to learn when ur told ok do this and yet u have no clue as to do it where.....


i have seen many of mailing list and bbs in the same forum...... the ones who understand linux think not of the everyday person but as if u knew all .. well if we did we wouldnt be askin for help.... the linux world needs to change in this area or it wont go much more.. then web servers and such .... u all seen what happin with lindows... true linux is not a point n click world like windows but with a little help ... more then what is now easier to undertand mans and hot tos linux would pass windows by far .....


good luck linux u will need it one person who has givin up the fight to learn it ...........

[bob]

Sorry you've decided to give up the fight, XPFTP. But be fair, when you first booted up a Windows machine, weren't you a little out of your element? Didn't it take a while to feel comfortable? The difference many times is that there is generally a friend or family member right there to walk you through the first days with Windows, since it is so very common. Linux in all it's flavors is only 3-4% of the computer population, so chances are that you'll have to find answers for yourself. There are good 'how-to's packaged right in the linux OS itself and a lot of on-line help if you'll be patient and search for it.

Think now, when you had a problem with Windows, where did you turn? Chances are that you had to call the company who sold you your machine and pay a fee or wait on the phone for quite a while. Or, maybe you had a 'geek' friend who could bail you out. Did you find any forums for Windows with REAL people willing to help, free of charge, 24/7? Did they talk over your head? Well, did you ask them to spell it out in simple terms? They would have.

BTW, I am a very recent convert to Linux - purchased my first distro of SuSE in January and was confused as hell but kept at it and read a lot. Loaded FC2 in July, which is when I started working with commands and trying to make sense of the magic. If I can do it at 60'ish, it can be done by you too! Before you hang it up entirely, have a look at these tutorials - they might make things clearer:

http://linuxsurvival.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=1&meid=-1
http://www.johnmunsch.com/articles/FedoraCoreGettingStarted/
http://linux.org.mt/article/terminal#N10076

I sincerely hope you'll give it a little more time.

[jcstille]

Well the linux community is trying and improving every day. I see exactly what you are talking about all the time, but this whole process is evolving.

[kosmosik]

how exactly Windows beats Linux? I don't know what you mean. it is like with cars: for average joe - probably family van beats mitsubishi lancer evo 8 in ease of driving, costs and so on... so what?

Linux is for everybody, just not everyone is for Linux

for me Linux beats Windows in most cases (but there are points where Windows is better. but this is not certainly ease of use. for me Windows is harder to use. try to debug something not working on Windows...). you mean install base? numbers? I don't care about numbers :) it is like "people eat ****! billions of flys cannot be wrong!" :P

[kosmosik]

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing
(I don't mean you are a looser but maybe if you read this document you will get the point)

[ghaefb]

Eric S Raymond... I love this guy :)
Good link.

[radu5er]

... some folks do not understand things and they try adn learn.... but it is very hard to learn when ur told ok do this and yet u have no clue as to do it where.....
...........


Very few things worth doing are easy to learn, and computers are one of those things.

It is un-natural (for most people anyway ;) ) to communicate via the machine language of ones and zeros and operating systems that are intended to make operating a computer easier are often complicated as well. The graphic interfaces are intended to be intuitive ways to accomplish tasks, but by whose intuitive standards? Some systems and people are more "intuitive" than others.


Advise for the new user is often hard to come by and is frequently complicated as well. People who really understand a subject sometimes have difficulty expressing complicated solutions to problems in terms the average person can understand. I cannot imagine how hard it must be for someone to understand the complexities of a new operating system and at the same time translate advise from a language they were not born to. You are to be congratulated for trying!

Perhaps if you just try some simpler tasks when first beginning to learn Linux it will be a bit easier. Just take things a step at a time, and give yourself time to understand what is happening with the operating system. When I first started, I could not get many things set up the way I wanted but I concentrated on doing simple command line tasks first and gradually things began to make sense, although I still have a long way to go!

Believe me, you will eventually make progress if you continue to try, and you will have a teriffic sense of accomplishment as well when you do succeed.

If "old guys" like justol'bob and me can do it, you can too!

Good luck.

[ptschneider]

Don't feed the troll.

[fjleal]

will i foudn the reason why linux is bet by windows .... the man's and how to's r not wrote for the simple person or newbie to linux..... when one ask for help the answers r in other words far form lackin.... some folks do not understand things and they try adn learn.... but it is very hard to learn when ur told ok do this and yet u have no clue as to do it where.....


i have seen many of mailing list and bbs in the same forum...... the ones who understand linux think not of the everyday person but as if u knew all .. well if we did we wouldnt be askin for help.... the linux world needs to change in this area or it wont go much more.. then web servers and such .... u all seen what happin with lindows... true linux is not a point n click world like windows but with a little help ... more then what is now easier to undertand mans and hot tos linux would pass windows by far .....


good luck linux u will need it one person who has givin up the fight to learn it ...........
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[xsos]

helo, guys could i give an opinion ? , first i want say sarry for my poor english.

1. windows beat linux in easy to install aplications, windows user could get aplication cd easly and install it easlly, no worried about depecies problem and seek the file that needed by instalation like linux did.
especially in some country internet connection is expesive like my country, not many computer user have an internet connections. In my country to get cable conection you need to pay +- 65U$ every month with small bandwidth..

2. many people don't like text when it loading. I like mandrake cause when loading their hide the loading text, but we could show it up :D , windows win cause it have full graphical interface from boting untul shutdown, may be for us that is no problem, but how about people who dont know about the computer things ?

3. many hardware supported by windows, and many hadware company supported windows.
man, until now i could find a driver for my canon lide 50 scanner.

4. many big software development are support windows, like adobe, autodesk, macromedia, etc.

and that why windows beat linux in some countries especially my country Indonesia, and microsoft had supported many technology university like my university to develop windows application. More programer could do the windows more cheaper they sallary. In indonesia to hire a linux programer it need more cost that windows programmer.

But i like linux , why ? 1st it's free, 2nd more stable, 3rd xine and mms is awesome multimedia player with good sound and pictures more than player that you install in windows :D , less virus :D awesome community

thanks, i hope we could share about linux things. And make our linux dream come true :D , my linux dream is linux beat windows and make every people using it, at home, at office even at your school :D

go go go linux....

[Luc4]

helo, guys could i give an opinion ? , first i want say sarry for my poor english.


Me too :-).


1. windows beat linux in easy to install aplications, windows user could get aplication cd easly and install it easlly, no worried about depecies problem and seek the file that needed by instalation like linux did.
especially in some country internet connection is expesive like my country, not many computer user have an internet connections. In my country to get cable conection you need to pay +- 65U$ every month with small bandwidth..


Not so in agreement. Windows applications have a heavy cost. Windows itself doesn't give anything to yuo but some small apps. If you want something serious you have to buy Office which is very expensive (not acceptable for me). OpenOffice for me is sufficient and I've never found anything I couldn't do with it, for instance. The same is for anything else I think.


2. many people don't like text when it loading. I like mandrake cause when loading their hide the loading text, but we could show it up :D , windows win cause it have full graphical interface from boting untul shutdown, may be for us that is no problem, but how about people who dont know about the computer things ?


Sorry, can't understand. Loading of what?


3. many hardware supported by windows, and many hadware company supported windows.
man, until now i could find a driver for my canon lide 50 scanner.


This is a different kind of situation. This is not a problem of Linux itself, but of the community in general. I have no problems with my hardware, I'k lucky, but I think that it is sufficient to buy from now on only Linux supported hardware. So, decide before buying. The only problem I think, is for the hardware you already have.


4. many big software development are support windows, like adobe, autodesk, macromedia, etc.


This is absolutely true. It's been a year I'm using Linux, but I tried for the first time it 3 years ago. Every time I tried it I came back to windows cause I needed softwares I couldn't find under linux. Now, I'm ok.
I think this is the same as before. Do you agree? Not a limitation of Linux itself, but of the community.
By the way. I'm seeing that little by little big companies are moving under Linux. For instance I read some weeks ago that Adobe is doing so with all their softwares. It will takes a lot of time, but, being patient...

Only my opinions.
Hi all.

Luca

[Darrell Lawrenc]

I am a complete Linux newbie. Your post caused me to remember a line from the first Spiderman movie: "With great power comes great responsibility." Rather than giving up, I would suggest embracing the learning expericence. Yes, you have to do a little digging to get information. Not to toot my own horn, but as a complete newbie, I have installed FC3 on my laptop, got my wireless networking up and running, figured out how to install a flash and java plugin into Firefox, and discovered that the default shell that boots can be changed by using the switchdesk command in a terminal.

My first take - Linux is an extremely powerful operating system, but you have to invest some time and take reponsibility to learn. There are certainly a multitude of books available. I noticed that Barnes & Noble will have the Linux Bible for FC3 available near the end of December. I plan on purchasing it as a starting point for my own personal learning.

[imdeemvp]

Hey you can get some linux classes if you want to learn and read many books. http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29406

[KiwiNZ]

I think the replies have missed to point of the original post.
What I believe what was being said is , the Linux Distros want to become mainstream at least many of them , eg Mandrake , Suse, RH, etc . This means Mr amd Mrs Joe Public who wants to power up click and run.

They should not have to negotiate the flame fest that is usually the world of support forums . They should not need to hack the system and elastoplast it together to get their brandX machine working.

If Linux is to become the real competition the way I really hope it will then the approach needs to change.

[Lopov]

Microsoft sux and no matter how many trolls say it doesn't, facts are facts.

[yayegg]

Welll, sad but true: if Linux is to compete in home PC market it just must be like windows: power up+click and running. It is becoming like this more and more. But sitll it offers much more for those who are interested in it and like to have things under control.

And about forums. Well, i'm not some kind of linux guru or computer master in general. Just know tiny little more than ordinary desktop usage. And i must tell that all of my questions / problems i posted were answered in a clear and adequate way. I don't really think that people are treating others here like they know everything.

Linux rulez!

[wapgeek]

well i m from windows background. lately like to play with linux, its really cool. problem is that why linux is not so popular cos its not user friendly,, but things r changing lately!!

[Jman]

Here at this forum we try to be friendly to new Linux users and at least attempt to answer their questions.

Unfortunately many resources like man pages and some how tos are written with the advanced user in mind. There is somewhat of a learning curve. Hopefully this will improve with better user interfaces, and more documentation and how tos with the beginner in mind.

Click n Run is essentially a very easy to use frontend to Debian's apt, with a subscription to Lindows software. If cross distro packaging problems, dependency issues, and other software installation problems are solved, that would get us closer to click n run convenience.

[kosmosik]

will i foudn the reason why linux is bet by windows ....
we don't care :) as you maybe have noticed we use Linux. you may not understand this - we don't care. :) I also don't care about Linux getting mainstream/enterprise etc., as long as it works for me....

the man's and how to's r not wrote for the simple person or newbie to linux.....
that I can agree... but the concern is you must use manuals, not that they are bad. in perfect world you could use Linux without any documentation... but here this is different. usualy when stuff is not working it is the fault of this stuff. newbies always have problems with some things like closed source drivers and so on. like you get an wifi card and it only works after some voodoo and so on - this is not Linux fault, this is fault of this hardware being closed and needing to be "hacked" in order to operate :)

when one ask for help the answers r in other words far form lackin....
man this is *****in... I know you don't need to ask with other systems (which is irony while you also need) - but please - Linux community is one of best what you can get. answers, help, fun etc. stop acting like a looser :) try to call MS support or something. I am a sysadmin - this is my job. I face many different products tech support, call centers and so on - they suck, with Linux I go with sophisticated problem to a forum on usenet group and I get answer within a hours. free. but maybe you mean answers to questions like "how do I do Linux to not start X on boot" - yes that is what we don't like. check out this document:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing

(...)

i have seen many of mailing list and bbs in the same forum......
but you still don't know how to behave - sorry. if you don't like our answers don't use this forum.

the ones who understand linux think not of the everyday person but as if u knew all ..
sorry my post is quite offensive but please follow on. ones who understand Linux should not be bothered by answering common questions - they should be working on Linux and making it better. I mean people (a lot off) who make it possible that you get a CD, pop it in and you have an advanced system running - what you get of it is yours. but if you need somebody to answer your questions in this manner - go some commercial Linux flavour (like SUSE or RHEL) and you will get an printed user friendly manual, tech support by phone etc. - but you have to pay for this - this is called service. if you like to pay you also may (you have choice here) hire Linux engeneer and get things working...

this is how it works.

well if we did we wouldnt be askin for help.... the linux world needs to change in this area or it wont go much more..
:) but it did

then web servers and such .... u all seen what happin with lindows... true linux is not a point n click world like windows but with a little help ... more then what is now easier to undertand mans and hot tos linux would pass windows by far .....
windows is for clicking Linux is for servers yes - :) no I am joking - .Net and Windows is quite interesting but it is also not a thing that you can use with no knowledge...

good luck linux u will need it one person who has givin up the fight to learn it ...........
we don't need such people :)

[KiwiNZ]

I am sorry Kosmosik your last post is very arrogant and sums up a lot of the negatives being referred to in the thread and a similar one in this forum
Especially this comment
we don't care as you maybe have noticed we use Linux. you may not understand this - we don't care. I also don't care about Linux getting mainstream/enterprise etc., as long as it works for me....

[Uhlix]

Linux community is one of best what you can get. answers, help, fun etc.

could not agre more!! Everytime i have a problem..i can post and ask nicely =) explain my problem and people are useally pretty fast to point me in the right direction. Ofcourse i spend time trying to find the answer myself but that doesnt always work out.

In fact, it is this community (fedoraforum.org) that is what finally put me over the edge enough to "learn" to use linux as an everyday OS.

adios,

in a world without fences, who needs gates!! :D

[comsparks]

Just hang in there on Linux and it will eventually come to you. I picked up a book call Linux for Dummies and began reading. In the back was a DVD on Fedore Core 1 so I installed it over my Xandros 2.0. I then picked up the book and followed along until I had the system up and running. I then found this site and began reading everything I could about Fedora and finally downloaded Core 3 and installed it.

I can remember my first computer. It was a Zenith 100 that had two 5 1/4" floppy drives and no hard drive. When I turned on the computer with the DOS disk in drive A and it booted up I had a black screen with a white blinking cursor. My next question was "What do I do now" and the FUN began.

With anything there is a learning curve and Linux is no exception. You just have to have patience and time to learn it. Ask questions in here, almost all the people are friendly and will give you advice as to correct the problem. Also find some books on Linux and start reading. When you get stumped ask the question. Lord, I do, as there has been many of nights that I have banged my head on the desk.

In closing just keep at it.

Good Hunting!

[Shadow Skill]

I'm going to be blunt here so too bad if anyone gets mad. Kos why have you decided to be an idiot in this thread? We don't care is the same attitude the Mplayer developers give to anyone who dares to point out that their play lacks sanity, it's the same answer that Microsoft gives its millions and perhaps even billions of users when they refuse to rebuild IE and do away with the stupid ActiveX and the demonic shadow installs it makes possible. We don't care is the same answer Apple gives Ipod owners when they shaft them on features that could be easily added via a firmware update. I don't see a reason for anyone to make anything for use by other people if they do not care about a user's experience with their creation.

People who talk like you did to this disgruntled user probably think they are very cute [the nerd term here would probably be l337.] but really it only makes you look like a moron. Think about it if you didn't care why would you take the time to quote this person who apparently has trouble writing English [I'm not knocking the guy here, I'm just pointing out that he may simply have trouble reading and understanding some of the stuff if he is not proficient at English.] just so you may essentially throw his concerns back in his face because he dared not to express the joys of Fedora Core and Linux in general. This is the absolute last place I expected to see a post like this, I just came from Misticriver.net where one ass decided to tell someone to go somewhere else because he decided to post a not so glowing review/comparison of the Iriver h340 as opposed to an Ipod. "How dare this man not like the Iriver, how dare he even post such a blasphemy here." Is what the most recent reply pertaining to the review basically stated. We really don't need you or anyone else to be cute when someone is notjust saying "Linux sucks!" without further elaborating on why they feel that way.

You really are cute when you say that you only care that it works for you..well guess what if you don't get more people to come into the community you are going to fall behind with hardware support which is already behind windows, and your precious Fedora Core or whatever other distro you decide to use will be totally outperformed by the other OS's out there and it will then start going backwards instead of forwards like it is now.

[ogetbilo]

For some people convenience is more important than ideology. To my opinion, linux is more convenient than any other OS and I like it's ideology. But again, some people like to have things working as easy as possible no matter how. This is -I think- why most people (even people who like the free software ideology) are still using Doze.

Take this forum for instance. There are very nice free forum software around but this forum uses a non-GPL-licensed software. I think that the forum administrators feel more comfortable with vbulletin than any other forum software. If there were a free forum software with the same capabilities and easiness to use I guess they would use that software instead of vbulletin. Why do they use vbulletin? Because the convenience is superior to the ideology for them.

We should respect that.

[sph]

Another problem is that windows is installed on almost every PC you can find in shops.
Why would Joe Average change to a different OS if he's already got one that looks pretty nice?

[Shadow Skill]

He or she probably would not do such a thing at first, but if and when he or she became more aware of the faults of Windows he or she would probably begin to look at possible alternatives. Then the problem becomes are there any alternatives that work well without having to spend hours, days, or weeks setting up the system, initially at least. They also don't want to have to buy new hardware so that they can use a given OS although this is somewhat unavoidable no matter what OS you use.

[killaweegee]

Well, the way I always look at things is: The harder the obsticle the greater the reward. Linux is not easy to learn, but believe me it sure is awesome once you start making some lead way :-D

[james_in_denver]

SPH hit the nail on the head.....

Microsoft comes pre-installed. That is the single biggest market advantage Microsoft has over Linux. The other major advantage that MS has is marketshare.

Let's face it, most people, when they first start using a computer, learn Microsoft, which (see above) is already installed. It takes time and effort to learn a new O/S. It might be worth the effort for some users, for other's running Firefox and Openoffice on XP are good enough (for them at least).

Not every user has or needs a 400 MB database server, with a web server, and a Java Enterprise middleware app. But for those who do, most of them tend to migrate to Linux at some point.

Yes, it would be nice if Linux were offered as a pre-installed O/S from computer retailers. It's just not very widespread.

In major companies like Oracle, IBM, and Sun, where there are initiatives to move all apps from Windows to Linux, they initially have a learning curve/support problem, but in the long run these are largely successful efforts.

[killaweegee]

Several vendors such as, Dell, and IBM and I'm sure there is more, but thats the ones I know are offering new machines pre-installed with linux. The last time I was on Dell's website they had new machines pre-loaded with RedHat.

[greatscot]

I have been running Linux for two years. Before learning about Linux, I was running Windows 98SE.

Windows Total cost:
Windows operating system - I had to pay for it.
Microsoft Office - I had to pay for it.
Anti-Virus software - I had to pay for it.
Personal Firewall - I had to pay for it.
Database app - I had to pay for it.
Various other software applications - I had to pay for them.
What did I learn? I learned the following:
Software for the Windows OS is expensive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linux Total Cost:
Linux operating system - Free.
KOffice and OpenOffice.org - Both were free.
Anti-Virus software - Free.
Personal Firewall - Free.
Database app - Free.
Various other software applications - All were free.
What did I learn? I learned the following:
How to troubleshoot hardware
How to troubleshoot software
How to effectively search the web
How TCP/IP works
How a network works
How to write my own software
Program flow
And the list goes on.

My point is that my total cost of ownership on Linux hasn't been much while I have learned a great deal and I have had a ton of fun while doing so.
On Windows, I didn't learn much and wasted a lot of time and money.
I am not saying Windows is bad, I am just saying that Linux is better for me.

[dickinsd]

Is Windows better than Linux?

I don't think so, so is Linux better than Windows?

I'm pretty sure it isn't.

I really like windows, the ease of use is great, software is (usually) expensive, but it is usually a doddle to install.
There seems to be loads more good Windows software than there is for Linux.
And then there's games; I am tempted to install linux on my main desktop to try playing games in it, but I have read some nightmare stories about getting the best from your sound card and graphics card.

Linux, usually free, (I think you have to pay for distro's like SuSE (But perhaps someon can confirm/deny this)) the communities that surround distros are always there to help.
Installing things can be a nightmare, for example all the things I hvae had to download to get gDesklets to work (and it still won't even get through the ./configure stage)

for a complete newbie, first introduction to a computer; I suspect both OS's are exactly the same - after all, you can't miss what you have never used.

The only people that complain about their linux distro (my self included) are Windows users, and in most cases, linux is just a secondary OS, not a complete change.

If I can stick it out till October/November this year (one complete year of secondary usage), then I will probably find it harder to see the arguments why Windows IS better than Linux.

As of right now - I think Windows is great, Linux is pretty good.

out of 10

My Windows XP Pro setup => 8/10
My FC3 setup on the laptop => 5/10

one more point do any of you windows users use the standard ftp service built into XP? (My network places) this is one area that FC kicks my XP machines ass.
with Windows ftp, i can connect, and transfer files, and delete files, BUT i can only use it for a few hours, or only for say 300 uploads/changes AND I can't change permissions without a 3rd party FTP packages like putty or cuteftp
FC3 using gftp - perfect, I can make changes all day long, i get told if files are newer etc. the speed is about the max I can get (broadband upload restrictions) and I have never seen it die once.
But then making html pages quick, or making changes to them, I have not seen any thing that is as easy to use as MS frontpage!
AND what is wrong with the open office word processor - why does it have to reformat an entire document, so that it no longer looks anything like it did in MS word.
Open office has this fall back on both Windows and linux.
I support an internet cafe in cardiff, all Windows XP machines. I have tried installing open source software there - open office mainly - people that are writing documents from scratch, they are usually OK with open office, people that have documents on disc, or people that have only ever used Word will not use open office, they either outright refuse to, or they try to open their documents and then complain, so the cafe owner has to move them to a machine with MS office on it.

I want to get him to install Linux on half of his machines, he's not up for it, he thinks its gonna be more trouble than its worth... anyone got any sales talk?

I think my current setup (windows & XP) gives me the best of both worlds!

[AJB2K3]

xps internal ftp - no its crap.
there are 101 programs better then frontpage (ms notepad included).
Damn i prefer ms office 2000.
windows a doddle? pah rubbish its a pain in the ass.
OSS - i use fire fox & gimp and install it on every comp i touch.
xp is a start to looking better but against linux the gui still lags.

[linux4life]

Linux would probaly be better for me. I just need help along the way. I've been on computers since I was 9. I've used practically everyone Windows release out. When I was 13 I tried Linux. It was a new thing for me. So of cause I fell into difficulty. But many Linux forums (including this one) have helped me. I prefer Linux. It's alot more stable.
Linux > Windows for stabilty
Windows > Linux for compatibilty (Games)

[steelgrave]

Linux would probaly be better for me. I just need help along the way. I've been on computers since I was 9. I've used practically everyone Windows release out. When I was 13 I tried Linux. It was a new thing for me. So of cause I fell into difficulty. But many Linux forums (including this one) have helped me. I prefer Linux. It's alot more stable.
Linux > Windows for stabilty
Windows > Linux for compatibilty (Games)

I'm calling BS here. How is Linux more stable than Windows? There is no way to categorically prove or disprove your statement. I've used both for several years (Windows since it's inception and Linux since 1998).

People can cry "proprietary this" and "open source that", but the bottom line is you're trying to compare apples and oranges. Yes they're both fruit and you eat them, but they taste, smell, and look different. People will chose one or the other that they prefer. Does that make one better than the other? No.

At the end of the day, people just want their computers to work, for whatever they're doing. Some people have the time/inclination to get Linux to work for them, others don't and prefer the ease of Windows. However with that ease comes to cost of the OS and applications, something Linux is cheaper at.

[steelgrave]

I want to get him to install Linux on half of his machines, he's not up for it, he thinks its gonna be more trouble than its worth... anyone got any sales talk?

I think my current setup (windows & XP) gives me the best of both worlds!

I think he's right, and here's why. With an Internet Cafe a vast majority of his clientele I'd bet would be easily familiar with Windows, but not necessarily with Linux. People are creatures of habit, and especially when they're paying for it, they expect to be able to use something. It's all about keeping the customers not only happy, but coming back again and again. Now if a majority of his customers were regular Linux users, then this would be different.

Maybe a good idea would be to install one machine there with Linux, and convince him to let customers try it out, or at least have the option to do so, and see what kind of response it gets. The initial investment would be alot smaller, and yet it will still be exposed to his customers. In the end, it's the customers that ultimately make the business case to put it in or not.

[Cope57]

No such thing as a bad OS... Just bad admins... The admin makes his/her OS what it is, does not matter which is more secure out of the box, it is what you do with it that counts.

[killaweegee]

Talking about internet cafe's, isn't it nice when you sit down with your linux based laptop and have an awesome built in firewall, as apposed to sitting down with a windblowz based laptop and being wide open in internet cafe's. I have got it down to where I only need windblowz for one program. Neither OS beats the other in my opinion, but some just suite different people better :-)

[Evert]

i am running Linux (fedora core) now for 1.5 year WITHOUT dualboot (read my lips: NO-MORE-WINDOWS)
why?

1- i hate spyware
2- Windows is extremely instable , also XP
3- no more virusses
4- Monopoly position is bad

i think that, within 15 years, Linux can be found on a hughe number off pc's word-wide.

for me, no more crap from redmond

Evert

[Thomas Howard]

Fedora core 3 has pretty much everything I need in an operating system apart from certain computer games (Total Annihilationa nd TA Spring when it comes out) and utilities to edit them (although some will work in wine about as well, or better, than they will in windows, some also dont work at all) and Photoshop (no, the Gimp is not a satisfactory replacement for Photoshop for me, although it is fine for some things).

The rest of the programs I need or want to use work in Fedora Core 3, like Firefox, Gaim, X-Chat, indeed, some of them do not work in windows at all, like Quanta+.

And some of the features are, well, simply smarter, more intuitive and, well, just better.

[Finalzone]

Photoshop (no, the Gimp is not a satisfactory replacement for Photoshop for me, although it is fine for some things)

You can try Pixel 32 (http://pixel32.box.sk/). Although you need to pay for the full version, it is cheaper than both Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop.

[pammiwhammi]

Having tried to do pro audio recording in Cakewalk on Windows and Audacity on Linux, I'll take Linux any day. I have yet to lose a week's worth of mixes to a Blue Screen Of Death on Linux, which is more than I can say for some "better" more expensive OS's.

[twistymcgee]

I find that the windows/linux debate really depends a lot on what the end user is trying to do with their machine.

For example, if you set Jon Doe (a windows user who basically reads email, surfs the web and creates documents) in front of a linux machine and said "play around with this and see what you think", he would spit in your face after 1 hour :)

If you gave a linux user who has never seen windows before (this user most likely doesn't exist) then the situation would probably be more like 20 minutes as opposed to 1 hour.

A computer user who has tons of experience in both will most likely have a preference of one over the other and will be quite negative towards the other.

In my experience (I would say I'm quite experienced with both but a little more with windows), I have to say that windows is much easier to use for me. I find I can work much faster in windows and I found that my windows xp install was the most stable OS I ever used. I would reboot it once every month or two and thats it...it just worked. Currently I'm giving linux a shot as a desktop, mostly because I find that there's not enough free alternatives to expensive software for windows (open source in windows seems to be on the rise though). So far I've tried quite a few distros and I find FC seems to be the best for stability and ease of use. However, this is all just thinking about the machine in terms of a desktop. If I were looking at things in terms of a server I find that linux will beat windows, but again it depends on what you are wanting to do with it.

I think it's difficult to say one is better than the other. Comparing them is difficult to do when each user is using their computer in different ways. I also think that comments like "window$ sucks!" or "linux is crap" are pointless. That doesn't help the communities at all as they have nothing to back up the comment.

Since most users are like Jon Doe mentioned above, I think that if linux distros want to compete with windows then it has to be simple, stable and just work the way they end user expects it should. Since windows is a point and click based interface, linux has to work towards getting to the point where the terminal is not necessary for the end user. I know it's moving that way, I think it just has to continue in that direction. However, the terminal still needs to be there for those users who are very terminal oriented (as many linux users seem to be).

[KiwiNZ]

No such thing as a bad OS... Just bad admins... The admin makes his/her OS what it is, does not matter which is more secure out of the box, it is what you do with it that counts.


No such thing as a bad Os ?? err I humbly contend that Windows ME was a bad OS a very bad OS.

The Windows v Linux debate seems to be endless, the bottom line is , the OS one chooses should be the best choice for the task to wich you will put it and taking into account ones support knowledge base and ability to deal with it.

[Scribbler1]

As much as I cringe just thinking about defending Windows, I find myself at a loss when anybody can claim instability issues with Win XP.

I can think poorly upon the security issues (sans IE and Outlook a majority of those issues are moot), licensing issues, business practices, marketing tactics etc... but I can easily admit stability has never ever been an issue with windows since the release of XP. Couple the very stable platform with substantially low end user interaction for installing software, updates/patches, hardware installation and then take into account substantially improved resource management and performance over previous incarnations... you have a strong argument towards leaving Ma and Pa Kettle alone with their computer and not have to worry that you'll receive daily pleas for help. And if anybody takes time to notice, it's the kind developers of Open Source / GPL'd projects who were kind enough to provide secure alternatives to IE and Outlook, as well as competent firewalls. Windows has been improved upon and Billy didn't have to pay anybody for their services :).

The times I'm called upon to fix somebody's windows system, it's usually the result of a self proclaimed *nix admin who tried tweaking and fixing their friends machine because "Those tech support people charge too much and don't have a clue."

The only real arguments left against Windows is security and Microsoft's ethics. And if anybody has been paying attention, MS has been placing more focus on security over the past year. So that leaves ethics.

[twistymcgee]

As much as I cringe just thinking about defending Windows, I find myself at a loss when anybody can claim instability issues with Win XP.

I can think poorly upon the security issues (sans IE and Outlook a majority of those issues are moot), licensing issues, business practices, marketing tactics etc... but I can easily admit stability has never ever been an issue with windows since the release of XP. Couple the very stable platform with substantially low end user interaction for installing software, updates/patches, hardware installation and then take into account substantially improved resource management and performance over previous incarnations... you have a strong argument towards leaving Ma and Pa Kettle alone with their computer and not have to worry that you'll receive daily pleas for help. And if anybody takes time to notice, it's the kind developers of Open Source / GPL'd projects who were kind enough to provide secure alternatives to IE and Outlook, as well as competent firewalls. Windows has been improved upon and Billy didn't have to pay anybody for their services :).

The times I'm called upon to fix somebody's windows system, it's usually the result of a self proclaimed *nix admin who tried tweaking and fixing their friends machine because "Those tech support people charge too much and don't have a clue."

The only real arguments left against Windows is security and Microsoft's ethics. And if anybody has been paying attention, MS has been placing more focus on security over the past year. So that leaves ethics.


I'd have to completely agree with you here. And its hard to know if all the bad ethics publicity is 100% true. I realize some of it is but lets face it, you can't believe 100% of what the media says. I also find there's a lot of microsoft/windows bashing just because its the cool thing to do these days :)

[killaweegee]

Windows is a good OS until you start using *nix. After that you begin to realize how much more power and control you have with *nix and it's abilities. I use my laptop many hours everyday and I have found that when I was running 100% XP on it I would have to reload it after about every 4 months because they OS would just become slugish and completely unstable. Now that I have dual boot I use FC2 most of the time and XP very little. FC I don't have to worry about becoming unstable every 4 months and I don't have to worry about the XP now because it's rarely used. Anyway in my opinion *nix is the only way to go on a laptop because of the built in excellent security and security tools ;-)

[tjmax]

Fedora core 3 has pretty much everything I need in an operating system apart from certain computer games (Total Annihilationa nd TA Spring when it comes out) and utilities to edit them (although some will work in wine about as well, or better, than they will in windows, some also dont work at all) and Photoshop (no, the Gimp is not a satisfactory replacement for Photoshop for me, although it is fine for some things).

The rest of the programs I need or want to use work in Fedora Core 3, like Firefox, Gaim, X-Chat, indeed, some of them do not work in windows at all, like Quanta+.

And some of the features are, well, simply smarter, more intuitive and, well, just better.


Paintshop pro will work under Cedega I don't know if Photoshop will but it may. I am just getting my FC system set back up after One of my sata drives died. I it will be a day or three till I can try it as i slowly get everything working again. I am still very much a beginner in Linux so i am a little slow as i have to read alot 8).




I have always liked the Linux OS. I am at a slight advantage over most beginner Linux users. I am not really an end user being in the IT field for years I am not afraid of breaking something. I know how to search out, find and execute successfully most of the how to's and get I can get things working.

The way I see it, there are several things Linux has up against it that keeps it out of the hands of mainstream users.

The majority of PC end users don't want to be PC geeks they just want the computer to work-
They don't care how something works they just want it to work.
They want to be able to simply download a program and and install it and have it work.
They don't care about how to set up new hardware they just want it to work.
They don't want to have to learn how to run install something it should just work.
They don't care about the environment they are working in they just want it to work.

People want everything done for them with minimal interaction. They don't want to deal with it.

Windows does just this.

It gives people what they want... BUT it has a price. Its very susceptible to malicious acts and shortcoming that anything that is remotely micromanaged would be.


Linux on the other hand can be as tightly managed or as loosely managed as you choose it to be. But... You have to know what your doing and well as I said above, most end users don't care to know.


Of the many people who genuinely do want to learn and get into Linux. A lot of them are missing the base comprehension of how computers and computer security work or even how to enter a proper search on the internet to find what they need. With the installs becoming very simple and automated many of these people manage to get the OS on and log into the GUI interface for the OS are now think they are a "Linux user"... Unfortunately they don't have the foggiest idea what to do next.

Basic things like:
How to install programs
How to PROPERLY shut down an OS (you might be surprised how many people simply power off machines when they are done)
Basic Command line commands.
Where you should store files/downloads etc.
What file extensions do what. (maybe not all but the basic ones a user would be facing)

Unless someone comes up with a dummypoof Linux GUI Interface, that will easily handle installs and other user based interactions... IE one that acts very similar to Micro$lop Windows for end users to use. It will never be a mainstream OS and be ignored by the majority of software companies as a platform to sell software in.

Just my 2 cents

Tjmax

[exphiles]

I think most people who had trouble using Linux are those who started using computers with Windows.

For those who started with DOS and are fairly decent in using it would find it easier to use Linux in my opinion.

In my case, I was using DOS and tweaking it to be able to play games. Remember when you had to try to get all those config.sys and autoexec.bat programs to load into himem so you have enough memory to run your games?

The first time I used Linux was when I started working for an ISP and they were using Slackware. Since I was the only one who wasn't a Computer Science graduate in the group, I had the most to catch up in terms of learning how to use Linux.

What I did was installed it several times until I got it right. After that, I found it stable and fairly fast compared to Windows on the hardware I was using.

But like most people, I didn't use Linux as a main OS because of lack of apps. That was way back in 1997. It also didn't help that most of the Linux experts back then was arrogant and with a mightier than thou attitude who would tend to ignore simple questions.

As much as I was trying to understand the Man pages and other documentations out there, some of them just doesn't make sense. And if you're someone who just want to get something to work, it doesn't help to get a RTFM from someone when you get stumped.

But now it's different. It's been over 3 years since I last touched Linux. I'm just beginning to get back to it now and install it as a server. And believe me, a lot a changed. The installation is a lot more intuitive now, gui is also a lot better. I've had very little problems getting hardware to work except for some laptops. Overall, it's a lot more easier to use Linux now than 7 years ago. This forum is also the nicest forum I've seen with very polite people willing to help.

Just like Windows, Linux continues to evolve and becomes better. Yes, there are people who will say Linux is better than Windows or vice versa. But for me, use the OS that will suit your needs the best.

In my case, I would rather use Linux as a server than Windows NT or any Windows Server. I find it is easier to work with Linux than Windows Server though configuring Windows Server is all GUI. But that's just me.

But for everyday use, I'll probably continue using Windows since most of the applications I need are only made to run in Windows.

My two cents.

[Ghost]

I agree Linux and Windows have their own strength. But I will rather use Linux, simply because it's open source and got all the tools I need to do my job.


But unfortunately Linux isn't good for playing games, I know we can use WineX but it's not prefect. That when my PS2 come in. =)

Linux is more security than Windows and that's a fact. Open source vs Close source. What can I say. There are around 20 plus security hole which M$ refused to fix, because it's too difficult. If that is open source, we will not have the same problem.

[Nightcat]

And again it all goies to the point of which one's better. But, the question was "Why does Windows beat Linux?"

I'm not sure I'll completely agree with the author of the thread. I foud there to be many helpful Linux users to answer the questions. As everywhere, there some stuck up people who think alot about themselves, as some of people showed in this thread (I won't name them). It is also an unfotunate truth that these poeple generaly tend to flood forums.

So, these are the reasons, I think, make Windows beat Linux:

1) Linux is not exactly "plug and play"
2) A steep learning curve for Linux. One often has to learn advanced topics to do simple things
3) Many tutorials are not exactly writen for newbees in Linux.
4) It is not supported by hardware vendors, so you'll be pressed to find some drivers. And no one wants to change their brand new graphics card just cause it doesn't work with Linux.
5) Software vendors don't support Linux much. Not all opensource software does what we need it to do.

The last 2 are slowly starting to change, but they are a long way of the point yet.

As it's been also said, not all of us have an always on conection. In many places internet is prety expencive, so not everyone can browse for hours looking for all the stuff they need. Many of us don't take this into account when telling others to go search on Google. Makes it look very unfriendly.

[tejas]

I loaded Linux by accident whena friend crashed my windows system. And since then, I have thanked him over a million times. Windows is too easy. Come on, with all the hidden functions and programs that MS always have running in the open, it's so refreshing that whoever made linux, made it impossible to hide stuff. And that is great. Only complaint: find keeps crashing the system

[sgtbob]

Radu5er - Your take on this is encouraging - at 72, I'm just embarking on the Fedora journey and learning it at my age is the most aggravating thing - but God its fun! I surely do enjoy the forum responses - I learn something almost every day - maybe some are not so useful, but even that is a learning experience. As someone above opined, I admire anyone who is trying to learn this OS and in a second language it makes the task even more admirable. So at my age, I still enjoy a challenge...

SgtBob

[greatscot]

Linux isn't beat by Windows. Linux is alive and well and Windows is dead and gone, IMHO.
I realised that the day I downloaded my first distro, burned it to CD, and installed it - all free of charge and without one bit of help or support from anyone else. I thought WOW!!! If I can do this, what the heck do I need Windows for?!

And I have never looked back. I approach any Linux problem with the mindset of "let's figure this out or ask others until it is solved because this is the only OS I have". If you approach it with the mindset of "well, I could always go back to Windows", then you're not gonna make it on Linux because you've given yourself an easy way out of the Linux problem; surrender and fall back.

A ship in a harbour is safe... but this isn't what ships are built for.

[DRE.ORGY.NET]

These kind of posts are always reoccuring and dont really make any contribution other than to cause Windows VS Linux wars. I believe an OS is like a car (someone used a fruits analogy futher up this post) some cars are for certain people and some are for others. No one can tell you which car is for you , you have to make your own mind. You might once in your life go for a car thats completely outside your lifestyle and personality and learn that its not for you so you switch back to the kind your used to. At the end of the day you learn and at least you are given the option to make a choice rather than having only one kind of car and thats all you could ever drive.

[DRE.ORGY.NET]

IMHO Linux is like a type of car that fanatics like to do up and customise.
Windows is like a car for people that want a car to get them to from A to B. Its not nessesarily any better or worse you just see it as something you drive, your happy how it looks and how it drive and your fine with that.

:P I think I just fueled the fire

[crackers]

No, I don't think you did. I like that analogy. I'd like to point out the converse of the first comparison: Linux is also a car that will do the same as the Windows car. The difference is what you do with it - and with Linux, you can - easily. Anywhere from just changing the spark plugs to full-blown, take-the-torches-to-it, no-holds-barred modification. Complete with hydraulics, of course... :D

[kerrysl]

Deciding which one (Win / Linux) is better will always be a subjective personal thing based upon ones experience, knowlege, and desired usage. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. For me the difference is that Windoze weaknesses are downright dangerous (lost, corrupted or stolen data), while Linux weaknesses are merely frustrating and annoying (getting hardware/software to work).

However, I believe that it is key to Linux's long term success, that the average home/small business user adopts Linux. IF not it will forever remain a small niche operating system. General user adoption is important because it brings with it corporate support of Linux (eg. hardware drivers for Linux, recent release games for Linux, etc). The key for the general user will always be convenience. Convenience is what M$ are masters at.

For an analogy think of your TV/VCR/DVD setup. What do you want to do with it. Use it right? Who wants to be an electrician to be able to put it all together? (A. next to no one). Who wants to be a television technician? (A. next to no one). Who wants to spend hours reading manual? No one. What we want to do is plug in the cables, turn it on, insert VCR or DVD, press a button or two and be entertained.

Our computer OS, should not be very different. Yes it is an incredibly complex piece of technology, that is evolving, but you should be able to plug it in, and then use your computer, to do the tasks that you want, not the tasks some programmers has determined that you must do. The openess of Linux is great. The choice provided by various distributions is also great. This choice needs to be maintained for the advanced user, but the general user needs a system that installs, picks up the hardware and runs.

User guides need to assist users in learning were to put downloads, where to install programs and most importantly how to install programs. Many of the 'man' docs are written for advanced users only. The documentation needs to reach the whole gamut of users. Help should drop you into the newbie guides for the function. A link at the top should then lead to advanced docs (eg. 'man'). The worst thing that could happen for Linux would be for the advanced user to be alienated by the removal of resources or choices or configs, but these options shouldn't need to be thrown in the face of the new user either. Let it be a choice, convenience mode, or advanced mode. Let the user choose.

I am so impressed with the strides forward that Linux has taken over the last 2-3 years, I am now transitioning my web development work to 99% Linux, but I eagerly await to see where it will be in 2-3 years from now. Hopefully at that point it will be the obvious recommendation for the home user. At the moment I think it is not. For the hobbiest yes, for the IT professional yes, but for the average user, no. Soon though, very soon, that last one will be a yes as well.

Kerry.

[james_in_denver]

You want to tell me that Windows is better than Linux?????

HAHA, ROFL.....

Try going through installing a new Video card, that isn't compatible with the version of DirectX that is installed. (16 hours working on that this past weekend).

Or how about when a motherboard that fails and must be replaced??? That one is easy, you just have to re-install Windows, and everything else that you already had set up.

But when I replaced a MOBO on my Linux system???, kudzu warned me that it was removing some old drivers, installed the new ones for me, and I was up and running in literally a few minutes.

Re-installing Windows and all of the tools I had installed??? more than a full day.

[kerrysl]

Hey James,
I certainly agree with that. When Windows works, it works well, but when things go wrong it can be quite catastrophic. Mind you an upgrade install should not be too daunting. IF however it is a format, and clean install then yes it is a huge undertaking.

Linux is certainly better in many areas but often these advantages are not obvious, especially not obvious to the newbie convert. Within a couple of days of installing FC3, I had partition table corruption on my /home partition. While I tried to recover with fsck, nothing seemed to work, and I resigned myself to the fact that I had lost some data. Most of it I still had copies on Windows, and most of the email was not important, but it did leave me wondering about the stability and data integrity of Linux.

I was very pleasantly surprised to find a few days later the 'lost+found' directory and all of my 'lost' data. On Windows this would have been gone for sure. So I am now much more confident in Linux's abilty to safely hold my data. Mind you it did motivate me to get Kdar + dar installed, so the important stuff can be archived.

So my personal opinion is that Linux and especially Fedora Core is a much better OS than windows, but it is not necessarily easier. For an average user it could all be too overwhelming.

[armen]

on the contrary, linux provides an envoirnment where learning occurs, its fun.
after each session, i learn new things.
why would you want to use Microsoft as an os? you don't learn anything new.
you are simply at the hands of Microsoft developers and the crappy software they write.
I think it takes a degree of ignorance to use microsoft os b/c you can't extend functionality/customization.

[armen]

and another thing, 2/3 of the internet traffic is p2p and I would bet top dollar that most of those are poor windows users bootlegging software.
don't u guyz realize, Microsoft is out for themselves and you are the victims of thier works?
they charge you for software and provide you with ample opportunity to get prosecuted.
i hope their developers grow a conscious and leave the $70,000 yearly salary and join the open source community.

[armen]

and if you want to talk about an os that is worth some recognition other than linux,
consider os X.
btw, use FIREFOX, it's great. when was the last time ms cheap broswer(IE) gave you rss news feeds on status bar?

[sgtbob]

In using the Fedora Core releases (I now have FC3 installed on a dual boot with Win XP, and Mandrake 10.1 on another machine) and enjoy the learning process. Although to date, I have not let go of XP life preserver for the simple reason that I can do the things I want without having to constantly tweak some feature or spend hours looking for an answer to simple questions. That doesn't make me a bad person or an idiot, its just a simple fact that as a user I want to turn on a machine and have the stuff work. Insofar as a MS engineer making money, the last time I checked, earning money wasn't a crime - at least in a democracy, so I do not begrudge them for the benefits I enjoy from their labors - it is a capitalistic process that isn't illegal in the USA. For us Linux 'noobies' who didn't use DOS as a programmer, the trail is long and we have to spend hours reading manuals, asking questions and trying to decipher the 'da vinci code' called Linux.... a great system, but I just wish it were more user friendly to us 'noobs' that are 72+ years old/young .... :-)

sgtbob

[lokeey]

First of all, if you're going to post on how Linux BEATS, not bet, Windows, you're going to need to learn how to use your some sort of word editor with SPELL CHECK. It really helps. Second of all, not everyone has that ignorant mentality that you describe from experience linux users. I'm sure you're a newb at this, and if you had a clue, you would at least think of buying a book to get familiar with the LINUX WORLD. I don't know everything and I don't claim to know everything. I've been using Linux since '97 and I still consider myself a newb. I still go to forums and ask my buddy who happens to be an experience linux user and I still get the same answers from him. RESEARCH & READ. Use your HOWTO's. I have no problem with that, because it helps me learn and do things on my own.

We know that you are very comfortable in your Windows environment, but try coming out of your element and actually taking the time to learn. DO THE RESEARCH and READ the HOWTO's. Nothing needs to change. Nothing is as easy and simple as we all wish it would be. Take the time to read and you'll eventually begin to understand and learn some things are actually as easy in a Linux environment as they are in Windows, if not better!

[sailor]

Okay this post is going nowhere...the original poster has not responded to anyone and this is just becoming a flame war which does not help anyway....
Thread closed