upstart Removal from F14?

[tox]

going by this https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd looks like it wil replace Upstart. is Systemd better than Upstart?

[marko]

It sounds like it's better.

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd

[tox]

well if that's the case, why hasn't Ubuntu Odopted it? you can probably tell there are no Ubuntu packages http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd

Nope, no packages for Ubuntu. Go figure.

[smr54]

Interesting. Comparing it to Apple, which doesn't have a very quick boot up time.

[Dies]

well if that's the case, why hasn't Ubuntu Odopted it? you can probably tell there are no Ubuntu packages http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd

Nope, no packages for Ubuntu. Go figure.

Right, because as everyone knows or should know if it hasn't been adopted or re-invented by Canonical it must be garbage...

:rolleyes:

[marko]

well if that's the case, why hasn't Ubuntu Odopted it? you can probably tell there are no Ubuntu packages http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd

Nope, no packages for Ubuntu. Go figure.

Because it's not stable yet? I meant what I read in that link sounds like an interesting design, not to imply it was ready for prime time right now.

[tox]

Because it's not stable yet? I meant what I read in that link sounds like an interesting design, not to imply it was ready for prime time right now.
how do you expect it to become stable if there's only 4 or 5 using it? Ubuntu have been known to use unstable stuff before. surely they could help out Debain testing it.

[jvillain]

I have been running it for a little over a week now. It is a bit faster than up start in the gap between POST and the launch of KDE. But the real drag for me starting up is waiting for KDE to load and systemd won't help with that. Mind you I turn a lot of services off on my machine and the fewer services you have starting the less it will help.

If you read that doc you will see that it is 10% complete. I would say it is farther than that. But the one issue I currently have is my system won't shutdown properly. That is pretty big.

[pankajp]

@dexta :) LOL
it will figure in ubuntu after a few releases. Don't you yet remember plymouth, networkmanager, pulseaudio. They all came in fedora first. After systemd is well developed and polished, it will come in ubuntu :)

I also run systemd on my rawhide install. Its good but one issue is it doesn't shutdown properly. Something like "Not stopping monitoring, this is a dangerous operation. Please force-stop to override"

[tox]

@dexta :) LOL
it will figure in ubuntu after a few releases. Don't you yet remember plymouth, networkmanager, pulseaudio. They all came in fedora first. After systemd is well developed and polished, it will come in ubuntu :)

I also run systemd on my rawhide install. Its good but one issue is it doesn't shutdown properly. Something like "Not stopping monitoring, this is a dangerous operation. Please force-stop to override"
yes i remember but look at Ubuntu with PulseAudio 0.9.22 they have been testing that in 10.04 while fedora sticks to 0.9.21 . Ubuntu used Upstart before Fedora even touched it.

on a side note, lets stay on topic

[Zanpactou]

going by this https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd looks like it wil replace Upstart. is Systemd better than Upstart?
If you read the release announcement by one of the developers, you'll see his points for why he thinks systemd can out perform upstart.
Early adopters are reporting systemd to be faster than upstart but only slightly however it is still early days.

You'll know if systemd works out to be better than upstart for Fedora if it makes it into Fedora 14.
Right now it is being tested and developed to see if it can become better than upstart for Fedora's needs.

well if that's the case, why hasn't Ubuntu Odopted it? you can probably tell there are no Ubuntu packages http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd

Nope, no packages for Ubuntu. Go figure.
Ubuntu use upstart. They created and started the upstart project.
They won't be interested in anything else, especially if it has only just entered Fedora for testing.

But the real drag for me starting up is waiting for KDE to load and systemd won't help with that.
One of the gsoc projects for KDE SC was for a student to reduce the KDE desktop's start up time.
Whether there was a taker or not would take some investigation.

Ubuntu used Upstart before Fedora even touched it.
Because it is a Canonical sponsored project.

Thanks,
Zanpactou

[AdamW]

There's no final decision been made yet on whether systemd will be included in F14 at all, whether it will be the default, and whether upstart will still be available or not. For now we're working as if systemd will replace upstart, but depending on the actual experience with it when it hits Rawhide and more people install it, the plan could easily change; FESCo explicitly hedged its bets on this one, if you read the meeting log. =)

The 10% figure refers to the implementation of systemd as a Fedora feature, not the progress in writing systemd itself.

[pankajp]

The thread title is "upstart Removal from F14" no post mentioned that its not the case. Why, because including (even making the default init) systemd does not mean upstart will be removed from fedora. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but i feel upstart wont be removed from fedora 14.

[Zanpactou]

The thread title is "upstart Removal from F14" no post mentioned that its not the case. Why, because including (even making the default init) systemd does not mean upstart will be removed from fedora. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but i feel upstart wont be removed from fedora 14.
systemd is a complete replacement for the init system and upstart would be removed from Fedora if systemd is used instead.
Both try to achieve a similar goal, so having both installed would make little sense as you would only use one.

The Fedora wiki says that upstart will be relied upon as the fallback, should systemd not work out or not be ready in time for Fedora 14.

I only learned about systemd the other day thanks to Adam, so I'm far from an expert on the topic. I have read the lengthy release announcement and I'd say my understanding of what is trying to be achieved with systemd is quite good.

Thanks,
Zanpactou

[jvillain]

Once they started getting things starting and stopping by talking on the DBus via service files and from with in apps systemd really became a no brainier. Whether it saves time booting or not is secondary to the fact that it is just a better approach. The long time Unix guys that have moved to Linux are going to be some pissed though. They usually don't react well to change.

[AdamW]

zanpactou: 'removed from the default install' is not the same as 'removed from Fedora'. It's perfectly possible that we'll end up with both upstart and systemd packages available, and one or the other installed by default.