"You wanna know what really grinds my gears..."

[PhillyFloyd]

You wanna know what really grinds my gears ...

Threads that deal with nVidia, NetworkManager, audio problems, and installation media
People who can't google, or obviously didn't and ask, "how can I dual boot Fedora and Windows"
And people who take up ranting space ranting about the rants

Just my own little mental release - we are all here to help, and I don't mind helping, or getting easy questions that have been answered a googleplex number of times.... but what gets me the most -- a real good gear grinding, is when people cop attitudes replying to someone who has 1 post ever ... come on man, tweet your frustrations, or email a buddy, but don't disillusion some poor kid just learning making them afraid to ask another question ...

God bless some of you guys and gals who moderate and reply all the time, Leigh123Linux - you are a saint

[MorphingDragon]

You wanna know what really grinds my gears ...

Threads that deal with nVidia, NetworkManager, audio problems, and installation media
People who can't google, or obviously didn't and ask, "how can I dual boot Fedora and Windows"
And people who take up ranting space ranting about the rants

Just my own little mental release - we are all here to help, and I don't mind helping, or getting easy questions that have been answered a googleplex number of times.... but what gets me the most -- a real good gear grinding, is when people cop attitudes replying to someone who has 1 post ever ... come on man, tweet your frustrations, or email a buddy, but don't disillusion some poor kid just learning making them afraid to ask another question ...

God bless some of you guys and gals who moderate and reply all the time, Leigh123Linux - you are a saint

Do you know what grinds my gears?

A lack of Oil.

[smr54]

I've found that trying to shift a manual automobile while hitting the gas instead of the clutch will also grind gears.

Keep in mind that Fedora, at this point, doesn't really have a clear target audience, and so many newcomers will show up--especially when promised by one review or another that it's an easy to use, friendly distribution.

The casual users' questions also increase drastically right around the time of a new release.

Some of them, even if they start off lazily, so to speak, simply don't know, and will wind up becoming valuable community members, eager to pass on their new found knowledge to others.

Often, a newcomer can help another newcomer better than the experienced person can, because they've just experienced it, and know that the new newcomer--hrm, there should be better syntax, but.... won't understand something that the more experienced might take for granted.

[PhillyFloyd]

Agreed (with both) ... a new-newcomer often tends to address the question asked, as opposed to more experienced users getting caught in the method or approach ... most people don't care if they are doing something "improperly" so long as it works.

I am curious if RHEL has the potential to become the next mainstream linux distro - I tried RHEL6 beta the other day and it's pretty smooth - since F12 was feature rich, I am curious if RHEL will open up to a wider consumer market ...

[daviddoria]

I just read a whole bunch of threads where people were complaining about people whining about things not being "easy". I think feedback (negative or positive) is absolutely critical!! Even if it is considered "trolling" when someone just comes here to write a message about how bad their experience is, the Fedora community should appreciate their feedback! I'll keep this short as to avoid the "ranting about ranting" dilemma, but I just urge everyone to remember the importance of feedback and to try to consider it, no matter in how "poor" of a form it may be presented.

Dave

[bob]

Dave, the reality is that those who complain are doing so to users, not developers. It's far better for them to go to the FedoraProject/Communicate links and give the devs 'what-for'. Or to file a bugzilla on the matter. Not going to change the world, but perhaps something in the message will have an impact.

Sadly, we're the end users who either are still battling or have won our little wars with the distro but don't make the decisions.

[daviddoria]

Yea I hear ya bob. Last time I complained to a dev (not on the Fedora project) I pretty nearly got my head chopped off! I'm a pretty persistent ba$tard so I'll continue doing it, but most people would shy/sulk away at the first sign of hostility. Maybe if rather than complain to the devs directly, someone who is "on good terms" with some of the devs in "high places" could point them to this "Things that make you scream" forum and show them the things that the people that they are ultimately designing for are unhappy about. If I wrote software and then saw this forum, I would say "WOW, we REALLY need to address these things!". Others may get mad about how ungrateful users are and continue about their business. Only one way to find out how the Fedora guys would react I guess... haha

If things don't "just work", people will remain unhappy. When people are unhappy the user base will not grow. When the user base doesn't grow, less outside support is gathered and people remain unhappy... a vicious cycle. The "learn to use the terminal, n00b!" is clearly not a good argument. The terminal is great for "power users", but for people who just want to check their email and not pay Microsoft to do it, they shouldn't have to learn how to install kernel sources so they can compile video card drivers against them etc. I know the legal and cyber-morale reasons for these things, but most people don't, and want it to "just work", which I claim is a very reasonable thing to expect after 13 revisions!

Dave

[forkbomb]

It's all well and good to say that "feedback is feedback" but unfortunately it's not that simple.

The problem with much of the ranting lately (you know, the stuff that one expects to see immediately after a new release goes public) is that it is presented in such a whiny, ranty fashion that it wouldn't necessarily be entirely useful to developers even if it were vented in the correct channels.

[Dies]

...
I know the legal and cyber-morale reasons for these things, but most people don't, and want it to "just work", which I claim is a very reasonable thing to expect after 13 revisions!

Dave

13 revisions of what? A distro that claims to be "newbie"-friendly? or Fedora?

With so many different distributions out there with different goals, to pick a distro that doesn't fit your needs then complain about it is just plain silly, and that's putting it kindly...

[Firewing1]

13 revisions of what? A distro that claims to be "newbie"-friendly? or Fedora?

With so many different distributions out there with different goals, to pick a distro that doesn't fit your needs then complain about it is just plain silly, and that's putting it kindly...
Well put. I'm a huge fan of making things "just work" as well, but let's face it - that's a secondary goal for Fedora. The primary is goal is outlined clearly here (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Mission).

[Dan]

"What we have here, gentlemen ... is a failure to communicate."


Man ... I really hate to use the polite equivalent of, "RTFM" but your answers are all there. Go read 'em.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing


In short, do some of your own homework. Fedora is what it is. Nobody is hiding anything.

[daviddoria]

I guess I just don't understand why those objectives can't be maintained while at the same time making an OS that so many users don't have so many "silly" problems with? Any time a check box can replace 4 lines of cryptic sed commands, it should! This is not contradictory to putting "free-ness first"!

[Dan]

Well, Dave ... whilst you are over there reading up on the project, drop by the "communicate" page, and tell them you'd love to join and help them clean that particular problem up.


Along those lines, here's a great example to follow. http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?p=1366149

[CronoCloud]

Threads that deal with nVidia, NetworkManager, audio problems, and installation media
People who can't google, or obviously didn't and ask, "how can I dual boot Fedora and Windows"

Some Windows aren't used to the concept of "Google is the Help Desk". Some might not also be used to the concept of reading documentation before one does the install.

I freely admit that my first Fedora install was Fedora 12, and that I only read the Installation Quick Start Guide before doing it, though I have done installations of other distros before.

And people who take up ranting space ranting about the rants

a real good gear grinding, is when people cop attitudes replying to someone who has 1 post ever . but don't disillusion some poor kid just learning making them afraid to ask another question ...

I try to follow a sort of "Be Polite, Be Helpful." mantra.

Keep in mind that Fedora, at this point, doesn't really have a clear target audience, and so many newcomers will show up--especially when promised by one review or another that it's an easy to use, friendly distribution.

But it is easy to use, for the most part. I always hate saying "works for me." It's one of the worst things I could ever say to a new person.


Some of them, even if they start off lazily, so to speak, simply don't know, and will wind up becoming valuable community members, eager to pass on their new found knowledge to others.

Yep.

Often, a newcomer can help another newcomer better than the experienced person can, because they've just experienced it, and know that the new newcomer--hrm, there should be better syntax, but.... won't understand something that the more experienced might take for granted.

Yes, I've seen that. Less new necomers can trabslate "geek-speak" to "newcomer-speak"

most people don't care if they are doing something "improperly" so long as it works.

I'm a big fan of "using what works", especially if it's fast and easy to do even if it's not 100% the "right and proper way".


I am curious if RHEL has the potential to become the next mainstream linux distro - I tried RHEL6 beta the other day and it's pretty smooth - since F12 was feature rich, I am curious if RHEL will open up to a wider consumer market ...

It's possible. I had a good experience with RHEL (via CentOS) based YDL. I have found that Fedora really isn't all that different from what I got used to on YDL.

Dave, the reality is that those who complain are doing so to users, not developers. It's far better for them to go to the FedoraProject/Communicate links and give the devs 'what-for'.

I'm surprised the Devs don't check the boards now and then to get a quick overview of what's working and what's not.

Or to file a bugzilla on the matter. Not going to change the world, but perhaps something in the message will have an impact.

I haven't used Bugzilla in the past because it wasn't exactly end-user-friendly. It seems better now though, so I ought to sign up for an account.


Sadly, we're the end users who either are still battling or have won our little wars with the distro but don't make the decisions.

"little wars" is a good way of putting it.

Yea I hear ya bob. Last time I complained to a dev (not on the Fedora project) I pretty nearly got my head chopped off!

That's a big problem in the Linux community, user-hostile dev communities. They can really turn off an end-user from giving any feedback. As I've said, for the most part, I avoid communicating with devs because of it. To some, and end user like myself who can't code is useless.

Maybe if rather than complain to the devs directly, someone who is "on good terms" with some of the devs in "high places" could point them to this "Things that make you scream" forum and show them the things that the people that they are ultimately designing for are unhappy about.

That's a good idea, except some rants don't have much information that a dev would probably find useful.


If I wrote software and then saw this forum, I would say "WOW, we REALLY need to address these things!". Others may get mad about how ungrateful users are and continue about their business. Only one way to find out how the Fedora guys would react I guess... haha

Probably some of both.


If things don't "just work", people will remain unhappy.

But it does, "just work", mostly.

The "learn to use the terminal, n00b!" is clearly not a good argument. The terminal is great for "power users", but for people who just want to check their email and not pay Microsoft to do it, they shouldn't have to learn how to install kernel sources so they can compile video card drivers against them etc.

The terminal is quite useful, even for newbies following "recipes". For some things it is easier and faster to use the terminal than other methods. You really don't need to know a lot either, just some simple basics: cat, less, basic vim usage, "|", ">", ">>", "--help", "man".

Ron Rogers Jr. (CronoCloud)