help please. My idea to increase FLOSS users

[zerobug]

I'm placing this thread in the hope it may be useful to the FLOSS, in case it gets due attention and interest.

In a recent Ubuntu review, made in the Washington Post, the author concluded in this way:

"And that's an important thing to remember when talking about glitches in Linux: Yes, they exist, but they can crop up in Windows, too. In Linux, they don't cost you anything -- at least in terms of money. Time is another thing ... especially if you're not accustomed to the vocabulary and grammar of Linux."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2010/01/ubuntu_910_review.html


In good truth, Linux information for newcomers is too disperse, diffuse and deprecated. I remember that when I arrived to Linux, one year ago, I posted at LinuxQuestions, to present myself there. Following my post, another new comer, as lost as I was, asked where he could start reading, to get involved with Linux. Nobody was able to give an acceptable answer.

I think that the Linux desktop distro world, would have all to gain by creating a task force, dedicated to a specifically massive action, targeting windows new comers, by creating a very clear, succinct, well done, and attractive kind of Wiki, to facilitate the adaptation of those users to our way of speak and do things.

This project must be top quality, above all. It may require a multidisciplinary venture, involving some marketing, sociology, advertising, art work and of course, technical skills.

After the Wiky and all related work is completed, it should be centralized somewhere and kept updated. It will allow to be linked to every FLOSS and Distro sites who would want to adhere, placing it at a very visible place, and in a very attractive way.

This could be done with some kind of a standard banner, the like of:

"We welcome all Windows users. Please follow this link to learn all the advantages to adopt Linux, how Linux works, our terminology and other useful information for newcomers"

In case of Distro sites, some parts of the standard text, should be allowed to be changed, to meet the specifics of each distro.

I have all the pleasure to leave this project to the consideration of this forum community.

Note that I'm not looking for credit for myself, in any way, and I cannot even cooperate in the execution of this idea due to my lack of Linux skills. I just feel that the community hasn't been growing as fast as it deserves and we need to get together and become more aggressive on finding new ways to achieve that purpose. This is especially relevant after recent news in the net pointing out that our greatest developers are getting now quite old, and new blood is needed.

Everyone may be able to cooperate, even that just by spreading the word.

Thank you

[forkbomb]

Oh, I don't know. The problem isn't terminology. Terminology can be learned by those who have an earnest interest. The problem isn't lack of documentation. There's an ocean of documentation out there for Linux already. I think the biggest problem always has been and remains "Problem #7" from here (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm). The culture of Linux is just not bent on gaining "market share," nor is there an institutional setup for gunning to get "converts."

Face it. Most Linux users are geeks. Geeks are interested in doing geeky stuff, not evangelizing. The real issue is that various Linux communities have no intention (and frankly they shouldn't) of changing to accommodate Windows users, but expect Windows users to change.

The other problem is that, as much as we geeks are wont to say that "Linux is Linux," there are enough differences that a generic Linux wiki would quickly get confusing with too many subsections of, "do this if you're using Slackware; do this if you're using Fedora; do this if you're using Ubuntu."

PS - I tried starting up a Wiki just for Fedora and got a very lackluster response from the community here. It was a classic case of getting a lot of well wishers but only a few people who actually helped.

[zerobug]

"PS - I tried starting up a Wiki just for Fedora and got a very lackluster response from the community here. It was a classic case of getting a lot of well wishers but only a few people who actually helped. "

Yes, that is sad. And I'm convinced that it has to due with the geek culture, where each one is supposed to do his staff, and not "expect" others to help. Linus was just a lucky guy, or are things changing among us?

I understand that Linux is for geeks (or has been so). It's been very successful at enterprise servers, supercomputers, and some embedded devices. And I also know that desktop GUI's is not a geeks thing, but
they are appearing everywhere. Now, that is another issue, let's ignore it., and let me explain my fears: M$ is omnipresent, they are everywhere, from schools for children to universities, and at all desktop company where every young people will start their first job. Now, our great geeks, are getting old. When they joined Unix/Linux, the panorama (M$ dominance) was favorable to get the attention from young students to different solutions. Today that is more hard. So, if we don't change a little beat our geek proud culture, I fear that in a matter of a few years, Linux will finish. In the desktop first. Then, the fight will continue on the other segments. A powerful deep pocket entity, supported by half of the world, against a diminishing and older community. I don't mean to be a prophet of a disgrace. But considering all the above, the community must decide if bringing in the windows users will cause more benefits or more wreckage to us. Besides, if Linux is freedom and choice, those who pretend it to be only for geeks, are in a contradictory statement.

[pete_1967]

"PS - I tried starting up a Wiki just for Fedora and got a very lackluster response from the community here. It was a classic case of getting a lot of well wishers but only a few people who actually helped. "

Yes, that is sad. And I'm convinced that it has to due with the geek culture, where each one is supposed to do his staff, and not "expect" others to help. Linus was just a lucky guy, or are things changing among us?

I understand that Linux is for geeks (or has been so). It's been very successful at enterprise servers, supercomputers, and some embedded devices. And I also know that desktop GUI's is not a geeks thing, but
they are appearing everywhere. Now, that is another issue, let's ignore it., and let me explain my fears: M$ is omnipresent, they are everywhere, from schools for children to universities, and at all desktop company where every young people will start their first job. Now, our great geeks, are getting old. When they joined Unix/Linux, the panorama (M$ dominance) was favorable to get the attention from young students to different solutions. Today that is more hard. So, if we don't change a little beat our geek proud culture, I fear that in a matter of a few years, Linux will finish. In the desktop first. Then, the fight will continue on the other segments. A powerful deep pocket entity, supported by half of the world, against a diminishing and older community. I don't mean to be a prophet of a disgrace. But considering all the above, the community must decide if bringing in the windows users will cause more benefits or more wreckage to us. Besides, if Linux is freedom and choice, those who pretend it to be only for geeks, are in a contradictory statement.
So geeks don't want to help each other, what exactly we are doing in these forums then, or Ubuntu users in theirs, or SuSE users in theirs or... or...?

What comes to Linux dying in your opinion: Few years back there were no mass-market PCs and laptops available with Linux pre-installed, now there are, pretty strange way for an OS to die...

[zerobug]

Pete: I'm 55 yo. Since 1988 with windows, all I learned was build and unbuild pc's install windows and drivers and programs. At the insides of the O/S, I was a zero at the left. Last year, I knew FLOSS, had a lot of reading, deprecated windows, (all for ideological reasons) and for the first time in my life (55yo) I felt it's possible, and it's interesting to learn the insides of a o/s. If it's Linux.. So, all those geeks you mentioned, where did they all come from so suddenly? I know Linux did not lost market share. In fact, we have more users now, than 5 years ago, because we were 1% 5 years ago, the market has grown, and we are at the same 1%. What does this mean? Nothing !!! The true statistics, that I never saw yet anywhere, are: What is the growth rate of new FOS companies, every year, compared to no FOS ? And the related number of employees? and the gross revenue and net profits? And the same comparison for the ones that disappeared? And another comparison of all that data on a year to year bases? Do you know what? Nobody in the FLOSS have a clue about that. Do you know what else? I'm sure M$ has all that valuable data, to be used as intelligence on their strategy on attacking the FLOSS. Ok. Hope I'm not being too paranoid.

[forkbomb]

Besides, if Linux is freedom and choice, those who pretend it to be only for geeks, are in a contradictory statement.
Not necessarily.

Take for instance one opinion you see out of some Linux users (not saying this is me): "I don't want Linux to become popular because then it will become a greater target for security exploits." Such users are not likely to go out of their way to contribute to informational wikis, or try to convert friends to some or another Linux distro, or write articles bashing Microsoft or whatever, because they see the potential for Linux becoming popular as a threat -- however remote -- to their own interests. But, their unwillingness to do do things to "bring Linux to the masses" isn't an act of prevention of people from using it. Geek 1's use of Linux does not strictly prevent Geek 2's use of Linux, even if Geek 2 doesn't even know what Linux is.

Refusing to promote Linux does not equate to forcibly preventing somebody from using Linux. That's entirely in line with most Free Software licenses. After source code is made available, there's no further obligation on the part of somebody who releases software under, say, the GPL.

So geeks don't want to help each other, what exactly we are doing in these forums then, or Ubuntu users in theirs, or SuSE users in theirs or... or...
Yes and no. I don't think the lack of support for such a wiki would necessarily be an indication that geeks don't want to help each other. It's just that being a wiki editor appeals to different types of people than venues like this forum.

Chipping away on making ever-changing community-maintained documentation is a totally different prospect than posting on a forum where many (most?) single issues are resolved within a few posts and then closed as "solved" or allowed to slide off the front page.

This forum has hundreds of regular users. Back when I tried to start a Fedora wiki "by users for users" I posted a link on here and I got maybe 5 people who came to contribute regularly (I seem to recall more people posting to say it was a good idea than actually editing the wiki).

Forum communities are generally interested in exactly that - forums. The OP's proposal of a community-maintained wiki is a far different proposal than, say, the Ubuntu forums.

[BugRocks1]

I think there is a wealth of information but is dispersed, the wiki is a good idea but there are many wiki's already though.

Still what it is needed is something easy to fallow, with some nice pictures and graphics explaining how things work and how they come together. I like video sites for that(vimeo, youtube, blip.tv etc).

The other day I saw this tutorial on how to simulate windows 7 interface using CSS 3.
http://www.jankoatwarpspeed.com/post/2010/04/06/windows-7-start-menu-css3.aspx

For a second I thought it would be great to emulate the interface of gnome on a fedora 12 install then I thought about all the work it would be and got back to reality LoL

[zerobug]

Yes Tom. You're presented interesting points. One thing that seems scary is what you mentioned about the security issues in case Linux become a target due to it's popularity. I think most people is aware the we were not targeted due to our 1%. But I also think that many see Linux as a more perfect product, and so much more difficult to be targeted. Maybe this is nothing more than a myth. My last read on that matter, the opinion of the writer was that Linux may be slightly less vulnerable to attacks.
Regarding the utility of the intention behind the idea I placed, I know it could lead to a never ending discussion, so I may not massacre you people with my rants, only this, for a termination. Most computer users, but not all, are the so cold average joe/jane. Those, use to be older people, may find and use Linux, and may stay, or leave earlier or later. Usually are people who will not bother to learn, unless the most basics of their PC. They may never become a value added to the community. Others may find Linux interesting enough to invest it's time on it. Some of those, may learn, and become another geeks. This means, more people coming, higher is the chance to gain useful people to the community. Now, lets look at the reality of modern life. At some cities in Europe, there is people who take 2 hours to arrive to their job, and the same time, in the way back. They have dinner with their family. Then they seat on his/her pc to look about Linux, because one friend said it was a fantastic thing. He starts googling and what does he see? grub (what a hell is this) distro (...?) live cd ( ... ?) i386, i586, amd64 ( .....?), kernel ( ...?) gnu (...?), gnome (...?), kde (...? ) xfce (...?), partition my disk (...?) gparted (...?) windows manager (....?), DE (...?) brasero (...?) 3b (...?) gftp (...?), terminal (..?), ... CLI (...?) you name it. But only those common to all distros. At 4 am, the poor man is tired, frustrated, lost, didn't have a word all night with their family and will be blaming the "stupid" friend who told him about the great Linux.. For him, f**o** Linux. for ever. This is not for me... geek stuff (?). And yes, the community may have lost here a future great geek. Because at every site he went, he did not find a nice (standard) wiky, who would have though him all those grammar (common to all distros) in a mere 1/2 hour. This is my point.

[pete_1967]

...In fact, we have more users now, than 5 years ago, because we were 1% 5 years ago, the market has grown, and we are at the same 1%. What does this mean? Nothing !!! ...
First of all, you are talking about 1% market share, of what? Linux is not just the desktop you now use, Linux desktop is just one small part of systems where Linux can be run. Increasing desktop market share maybe be aim for a distro (like Ubuntu), but what makes you think it is for Linux Foundation? Desktop market from a financial point of view is peanuts compared to embedded systems, servers and super computers and those are all areas where Linux dominates and keeps growing its user base.

What comes to having a "definitive" Wiki where everyone would get their answer in easy format so that the guy zerobug describes, can come home, sit at his PC and get all the answers:
* To keep something like that up to date would require hundreds of full time staff to maintain and keep up to date. The vendors' own distro specific documentation can't keep up with the pace of change, how you think your Wiki would be unless you got people working full time on it updating the content.
* Different distros do things differently; there is no "one true way" to do things, so you have to provide "To do this in Fedora, do this, same in SuSE requires you to do it this way"... endlessly
* Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Ratpoison, command line... miss any of DEs and WMs in your instructions and ignore command line solution at your peril.

Just couple most obvious reasons why no one Wiki can ever succeed. Still think your idea is feasible and affordable?

Your idea about using FOSS companies financial statements as a benchmark or base for comparison is simply laughable, for the reason that "F" in "FOSS" stands for "FREE" to start with.

We all have gone through the phase where we want everyone to use Linux on their desktop and despair to find ways to achieve that, including typing "Micro$oft" or "Microshaft" instead of "Microsoft", "M$" instead of "MS" etc. Don't worry, you'll soon grow out of it, usually when you realise that Linux is not just for desktop and start to understand the philosophy behind the whole thing.

[Gödel]

I'd like to see linux become more mainstream. In the current financial climate created by the evil and stupid banking community there is a good opportuninty, since for example, our government needs to save billions over the coming years to repay the debt created by saving the evil and stupid banking community. That should be a killer argument for us switching to ubuntu in government a la the french government.

They can hardly justify upgrading to Windows 7 licences NOW, at any rate, not when schools and hospitals are going to be squeezed of cash.

Ubuntu community has a wiki and forum suitable for everyone. Fedora is more of an experimental distro, the choice for genuine linux enthusiasts and people who generally know what they're doing. :)

[bob]

*Caution: Political threads and posts are not acceptable. Please refrain from further comments of this nature. Thank You*

- Bob (retired member of the evil and stupid banking community) :p

[Gödel]

*Caution: Political threads and posts are not acceptable. Please refrain from further comments of this nature. Thank You*

- Bob (retired member of the evil and stupid banking community) :p

Yeah I'm tainted too, although it's been a while, I do remember one of the last team meetings I had back in ~2001 where we discussed the introduction of a new type of derivative based on ... mortgages! :eek:

Since I got out without contributing to these products (honest guv') I naturally feel morally superior and in a position to judge :p but I get the message, and shall refrain from stating the blatantly obvious regarding this again ;)

[zerobug]

First of all, you are talking about 1% market share, of what? Linux is not just the desktop you now use, .

No, it is not.
That is why I said: "...and we are at the same 1%. What does this mean? Nothing !!!"
Ok, so far we agree with each other.



Desktop market from a financial point of view is peanuts compared to embedded systems, servers and super computers and those are all areas where Linux dominates and keeps growing its user base.

Sure. I did also mentioned that
"....Linux is for geeks (or has been so). It's been very successful at enterprise servers, supercomputers, and some embedded devices. And I also know that desktop GUI's is not a geeks thing, but they are appearing everywhere."
Well... We agree again and I'm starting to fail to understand what's your point.



What comes to having a "definitive" Wiki where everyone would get their answer in easy format so that the guy zerobug describes, can come home, sit at his PC and get all the answers:.

Well, here, maybe its my fault, as I was not enough consistent. But if you have read it all with due attention, you would have noticed this key points

"...when talking about glitches in Linux: Yes, they exist, but they can crop up in Windows, too. In Linux, they don't cost you anything -- at least in terms of money. Time is another thing ... especially if you're not accustomed to the vocabulary and grammar of Linux."

"I think that the Linux desktop distro world, would have all to gain by creating a task force, dedicated to a specifically massive action, targeting windows new comers, by creating a very clear, succinct, well done, and attractive kind of Wiki, to facilitate the adaptation of those users to our way of speak and do things.

"We welcome all Windows users. Please follow this link to learn all the advantages to adopt Linux, how Linux works, our terminology and other useful information for newcomers"

"He starts googling and what does he see? grub (what a hell is this) distro (...?) live cd ( ... ?) i386, i586, amd64 ( .....?), kernel ( ...?) gnu (...?), gnome (...?), kde (...? ) xfce (...?), partition my disk (...?) gparted (...?) windows manager (....?), DE (...?) brasero (...?) 3b (...?) gftp (...?), terminal (..?), ... CLI (...?) you name it. But only those common to all distros.



To keep something like that up to date would require hundreds of full time staff to maintain and keep up to date. The vendors' own distro specific documentation can't keep up with the pace of change, how you think your Wiki would be unless you got people working full time on it updating the content.

Is it more clear to you now? Its an help on vocabulary, terminology, comparing it to Windows, and maybe a few more items, but only those common to all distros.

Not so difficult, not so complex, not so long as it is not supposed to cover all distros specifics and very easy to maintain.



Different distros do things differently; there is no "one true way" to do things, so you have to provide "To do this in Fedora, do this, same in SuSE requires you to do it this way"... endlessly
* Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Ratpoison, command line... miss any of DEs and WMs in your instructions and ignore command line solution at your peril.

Just couple most obvious reasons why no one Wiki can ever succeed.

Depends on what kind of wiki each one of us are talking about.



Still think your idea is feasible and affordable?

What do you think, after the above clarifications?



Your idea about using FOSS companies financial statements as a benchmark or base for comparison is simply laughable,

Yes, it is laughable, but this is your quote, not all that I wrote. I said:

"The true statistics, that I never saw yet anywhere, are: What is the growth rate of new FOS companies, every year, compared to no FOS ? And the related number of employees? and the gross revenue and net profits? And the same comparison for the ones that disappeared? And another comparison of all that data on a year to year bases?"

I expected that you knew that a single piece, out of the all the picture, means nothing, in statistics .


for the reason that "F" in "FOSS" stands for "FREE" to start with.

hummm.... free as in what? Are you a noob here?



We all have gone through the phase where we want everyone to use Linux on their desktop and despair to find ways to achieve that, including typing "Micro$oft" or "Microshaft" instead of "Microsoft", "M$" instead of "MS" etc. Don't worry, you'll soon grow out of it, usually when you realise that Linux is not just for desktop and start to understand the philosophy behind the whole thing.

Now is the right time to tell you know that all the matters that I have exposed, are not targeted to you. I'm trying to target people with vision for the future. You are not one of those persons, I'm so sorry to have to talk this way to you.

Please read this again.

let me explain my fears: M$ is omnipresent, they are everywhere, from schools for children to universities, and at all desktop company where every young people will start their first job. Now, our great geeks, are getting old. When they joined Unix/Linux, the panorama (M$ dominance) was favorable to get the attention from young students to different solutions. Today that is more hard. So, if we don't change a little beat our geek proud culture, I fear that in a matter of a few years, Linux will finish. In the desktop first. Then, the fight will continue on the other segments. A powerful deep pocket entity, supported by half of the world, against a diminishing and older community. I don't mean to be a prophet of a disgrace. But considering all the above, the community must decide if bringing in the windows users will cause more benefits or more wreckage to us. Besides, if Linux is freedom and choice, those who pretend it to be only for geeks, are in a contradictory statement.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM CDT ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM CDT ----------

I'd like to see linux become more mainstream. In the current financial climate created by the xxx and xxxx banking community there is a good opportuninty, since for example, our government needs to save billions over the coming years to repay the debt created by saving the evil and stupid banking community. That should be a killer argument for us switching to ubuntu in government a la the french government.


"gov needs to save billions over the coming years to repay the debt created by saving the xxx and xxx banxxx community. "

You couldn't be more right!!! And at my country the situation, for the same reasons, but not only, is still worst. So bad that I'm even ashamed to tell where I'm coming from.... :mad:

[aleph]

There's nothing to fear. In a few years humans will finish and robots will inherit the earth. Everyone now Linux-powered!

Jokes aside, I don't think there's anything much to fear. Linux has always been a powerful engine burning on real talent instead of marketing. Over the years it has gained its critical mass as a talent-attracting center. What I've seen in my experience is that Linux is gaining its momentum particularly in the young people around me, not all of whom are "geeks".

Unlike some other OS, Linux is not in the hand of one man or one corporation, and that's why I think it will outlast its proprietary competitors in the end. Since you've brought up the topic of future and vision, I dare say that Linux will survive and thrive due to its unpredictable nature -- there's no way for it to be trapped in one vision. Young minds worldwide are being brought together to the FOSS world and this concentration of talent will blow away any roads predeterminedly laid before it.

I'm all for your effort in bringing Linux to more users. As a user of Linux myself I've always respected those who try to help others with anything Linux related. However I don't share your fears.

[pete_1967]

blah blah blah

http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz

[zerobug]

There's nothing to fear. In a few years humans will finish and robots will inherit the earth. Everyone now Linux-powered!

Jokes aside, I don't think there's anything much to fear. Linux has always been a powerful engine burning on real talent instead of marketing. Over the years it has gained its critical mass as a talent-attracting center. What I've seen in my experience is that Linux is gaining its momentum particularly in the young people around me, not all of whom are "geeks".

Unlike some other OS, Linux is not in the hand of one man or one corporation, and that's why I think it will outlast its proprietary competitors in the end. Since you've brought up the topic of future and vision, I dare say that Linux will survive and thrive due to its unpredictable nature -- there's no way for it to be trapped in one vision. Young minds worldwide are being brought together to the FOSS world and this concentration of talent will blow away any roads predeterminedly laid before it.

I'm all for your effort in bringing Linux to more users. As a user of Linux myself I've always respected those who try to help others with anything Linux related. However I don't share your fears.

Well, it's always a pleasure and a comfort to listen to an optimistic opinions, based on observation of real facts. Maybe I got a little paranoid about some recent news in the net, about our best people being getting .... how did they titled it .... kind white beards ... Santa Claus :)


http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/open_source/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224400309

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM CDT ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM CDT ----------

http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz



Hey Pete; Really a big thanks for the link. Its all there, I never saw anything (in the net) so extensive and complete. he problem of such a big work is to keep it updated, I hope they have been able to get there.

Much appreciated, thanks. I've been collecting tons of FOSS literature from the net, but at the end, have few time to get involved on the reading.

But please note that what I'm thinking about is something very simple, about our terminology, compare it to the W$, should only include items that are common to every distro, and persuade new users about the advantages of using Linux. The presentation, art work, ease of understanding for noobs would also be important.

[forkbomb]

If your emphasis is on just the jargon/"vocabulary" I don't think a wiki is necessarily the best fit.

Plus, there's always the jargon file. :p
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/go01.html

---------- Post added at 10:31 AM CDT ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM CDT ----------

grub (what a hell is this) distro (...?) live cd ( ... ?) i386, i586, amd64 ( .....?), kernel ( ...?) gnu (...?), gnome (...?), kde (...? ) xfce (...?), partition my disk (...?) gparted (...?) windows manager (....?), DE (...?) brasero (...?) 3b (...?) gftp (...?), terminal (..?), ... CLI (...?) you name it. But only those common to all distros.I'm pretty sure this also fits somewhat into the problem that if <hypothetical user> isn't willing to run a quick google and find out what those things mean -- because everybody in this thread knows the definitions are already out there -- I don't think <hypothetical user> is going to be able to find a wiki anyway.

What all those things are is already (over?)documented. Sure, the documentation is dispersed, but the fact of the matter is that in order to find it you have to be willing to dig. And if you don't have that willingness, using any distro is going to be a pain at some point in time.

As far as putting up information about why users "should" switch, it's already being done ad nauseum. It falls on deaf ears for mainly good reasons. Linux zealots are almost unanimous in their stubborn refusal (inability?) to acknowledge that as much as Windows is a pain in the butt, any Windows user with a pulse and a semblance of a brain can keep it running pretty well. Why upset a status quo that, as much as it may not be optimal for the reasons we know well wnough, allows the job to get done for the most part?


Did you read the Linux vs. Windows article I linked in my first post? I think it summarizes the main points of why new users coming to Linux either fit right in (a minority) or get put off and leave (the majority).

[zerobug]

I think I may elaborate a beat further, about this.

This my not have to be a single distro project.

I tried to target the community, hoping that at distro X, a tech guy could cooperate, at distro Y, a art worker, at forum Z, a skilled marketing person, at some other forum, a maintainer, and somewhere else a good persuader.

It is not supposed to be a all Linux thing about all distro things. Its a way to help people coming from windows, to adapt, by quickly reading and understanding an attractive, succinct and well written wiki, explaining our terminology (and a few other pertinent items), and only including details that are common to all distros, together with some comparing with Windows similar. The art workers, the persuaders and the marketers, would then polish it to make it also a good marketing tool, with the best possible professional looking.

At the end, it could be placed at any site, but maybe in agreement with the Free Software Foundation, and allowing any distro or other FLOSS site to link to it. by mean of a standard banner.

This is the reason why I titled at Distro X forum that it was to increase their user base, and did the same, at a few other distros.

By having "a sort of like the first port of call", as someone at Mandriva, so well, named it, even new comers talking between them about Linux, would understand each other better among them, because as all started with a common standard reading, it's like they would be talking about the same kind of familiar tasting oranges.

And by that reason, it could also make life easier at every distro support forums, by the time they would later get involved with the specifics of each of them.


Assuming the project would sometime happen to be concluded, and be successful, it could help any distro out there to get new users, and more easily support them.

[stevea]

The WashingtonPost article claims are lame - anyone can find a 3 inch thick fluff-book on any common distro. Then again google.com/linux is faster/better/cheaper.

I'm not a fan of Wikis. The organization is usually haphazard and the content dubious. More of a reference vehicle than a "read". Still better than nothing but .... On two separate cases I've contributed clearly superior, well referenced content to wikis only to find that some loser on an ego trip replaces it with his older inferior content, misspelling, wrong terminology and all. These were embedded wikis but same issue arise on any popular wikis. The fact is that certain ppl camp-out on certain wiki pages and prevent progress. On a forum, I and DIes and Forkabomb may all disagree, but we each get FAIR chance to express our arguments and the reader can judge freely. There are undoubtedly better ways to organize information but it's not a wiki. It requires some user satisfaction feedback used as a strength measure. Like google ordering algorithm, but finer grained.

[forkbomb]

I'm not a fan of Wikis...I don't have a problem with wikis per se, though they do seem to be jumping the shark.The excitement over wikis is starting to bump up against the problems inherent in massively distributed editing. It seems to largely come down to community. Wikipedia, for one thing, is working fine from a standpoint of technical implementation, but its "culture" has reached a crisis point as far as I'm concerned.

When it really comes down to it, though, I don't know if the fate that most wikis run into is written into "wikihood" itself or if it's just that many wiki communities seem to be stagnating because of domineering "gatekeeper" cultures. I don't even bother editing Wikipedia anymore, to take the obvious example. The "be bold" mantra rings hollow when I consider that I can't remember a time I made a substantial edit to wikipedia that wasn't reverted in 5 minutes.

I like using wiki software as my own lightweight quasi-CMS and honestly I think that's one of the best uses of wiki software. Perhaps the success and usefulness of a wiki diminishes past a certain critical mass of committed editors.

[justforgetme]

Hey guys!

About wikis:
I don't know if such a project would be best represented in a wiki, what you realy want is to have a "read", like someone before me stated, which needs to have a very precise path and structure in order to convey the required information effectively. Wikis as far as I have used them target more on presenting info on a very specific subject, leaving it's interconnection with broader knowledge schemes as a secondary objective.

BTW: Forkbomb what do you mean by the culture of wikis having reached a crisis point?

On floss documentation:
Indeed knowledge is abundant on the web. About anything you will ever need to know will have been discussed on some forum, blog, wiki or other framework. The problem as I understand it can be generalized into two sections:


Steep learning curve: To change from the philosophy of the "all you need to have" windows desktop to the one "all you can think of" linux environment is quite a big task. It requires most of all determination, willingness to investigate and openness to adopt new methods of working your information system (Terminal vs GUI administrated system is an example). now, I'm not trying to argue that Linux does it wrong (because it doesn't). I'm just saying that there are big changes, in computing habits, involved in changing from one world to another. Which added to the initial confusion of terminology, philosophy and decentralized information can be a big turnoff if you don't have the patience to go through with it.
hypertimes education: what I mean with hypertimes education is the ways usual desktop users use the web and its facilities. It may well be that most users of this forum here have a bff called google search and a service of curiosity running through all their thought processes creating questions that need to be answered but this is not the case for the general public. The mass of desktop users have too many dependencies when it comes to solving problems with their equipment (geek friend, tech guy etc.) and are not used to diving into the wire to mess with or fix something. So the problem here doesn't root in the inability/unwillingness of the floss community to maintain a clear conversion procedure but in the fact that finding answers and inclination to change is not in everyone's nature. Which the science of people says is an effect of wrong education.


Zerobug: I'm not trying to turn you off from your idea, I think it's a great thing to think the way you do. I just don't believe that this is the key to make GNU/linux the default platform for casual computing amongst the masses. I too can't understand why normal people would prefer costly, shadowed software to the free, honest and versatile one. It definately makes no sense to me but this is the state of things and as I explained earlier the things I think cause it are quite out of my reach to fix.

Somebody talked about the phase where you want everybody to become a linux user and refrain of addressing Microsoft correctly, please don't mock people for having beliefs similar to a past you. It doesn't mean that they are a past you.

And because I made this post really really gray here is some cheerful thinking (with quite some useless information):

I'm the only person I know on a physical level that ever dabbled with linux and I converted just fine!
So Its 100% successful conversion rate on my knowledge base! :P

cheers guys

[zerobug]

The WashingtonPost article claims are lame - anyone can find a 3 inch thick fluff-book on any common distro. Then again google.com/linux is faster/better/cheaper.

I'm not a fan of Wikis. The organization is usually haphazard and the content dubious. More of a reference vehicle than a "read". Still better than nothing but .... On two separate cases I've contributed clearly superior, well referenced content to wikis only to find that some loser on an ego trip replaces it with his older inferior content, misspelling, wrong terminology and all. These were embedded wikis but same issue arise on any popular wikis. The fact is that certain ppl camp-out on certain wiki pages and prevent progress. On a forum, I and DIes and Forkabomb may all disagree, but we each get FAIR chance to express our arguments and the reader can judge freely. There are undoubtedly better ways to organize information but it's not a wiki. It requires some user satisfaction feedback used as a strength measure. Like google ordering algorithm, but finer grained.

stevea: I think your comment was extraordinary pertinent, and in the present issue, I also think you are 100% right. When we write to the general public, we need to really be careful with the terms we employ. When I used the term wiki, I had in my mind what use to be its content, and I completed missed the "form" as it works.

In fact, in this case, it should be an attractive, professional written, "traditional" page at some web site, that could only be changed by its web master, if needed, to be improved or updated.
Sure I understand your frustration about the situation you referred. No one should be allowed to change and override that kind of work, without expressly approved by the original author.
Thanks a lot for your comment and contribution.

I found your post at my mail box. and when I come here to comment it, I noticed a few more posts about wikis, witch I'm going now to have a look. Anyway, no matter what was further written, regarding the actual idea, I think you can only be true.

[forkbomb]

BTW: Forkbomb what do you mean by the culture of wikis having reached a crisis point?Actually I was thinking more about Wikipedia specifically when I made that comment, and sort of already explained why I think it's a problem. I recall reading somewhere that Wikipedia's count of active editors hit a high point awhile ago.

The entire culture surrounding wikipedia has stagnated. Articles are baby-sat by people who want to protect their sacred cows. Newcomers are discouraged by an incredibly inane and increasingly opaque "guide of style."

Wikipedia's scaring off new editors, and the deletionists are getting increasingly aggressive in deleting articles for no good reason (it's not like it saves disk space to delete an article that's already been written). A new user making a good-faith edit to make an article more layperson-friendly is actually most likely these days to have his edit reversed and a snippy message left on his IP's talk page about how he shirked some silly obscure Wikipedia rule.

The sum of it all is that the WP mantra of "being bold" is defunct. If one's not already in the Wikipedia culture, it's hard to pierce one's way into the fold and understand how it works because it can be so darn discouraging.

Some other wikis have the same problem, but more focused wikis tend to end up with less problems as far as I've observed.

[zerobug]

Somebody talked about the phase where you want everybody to become a linux user and refrain of addressing Microsoft correctly, please don't mock people for having beliefs similar to a past you. It doesn't mean that they are a past you.




justforgetme; you are right,

After I started my thread here, I've come to understand how great this community is, respectful, giving due attention to all members, promoting dialog, and exchanging ideas.
It's surely that If I fail to respect someone, then, no one will respect me, and then, I would only have the way to the door out.

I want to immediately retract myself here, and say to Pete_1967, please, sorry. Floss is freedom: to choice, agree, or disagree, accept or refuse. All but blame anyone who disagree with other.