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blackrim
14th April 2010, 01:22 AM
I am thinking of switching my newer laptop (hp elitebook 8440w) to fedora (general frustration with some of the direction of ubuntu 10.04) and am simply wondering if there are reasons to not just start with fedora 13 beta (given it will likely have better support for some of my newer hardware).

i know there may be stability issues but i am ok with that.

i am more interested in knowing whether the beta has flags that might slow it down performance-wise or whether it won't be updated to the full release as those updates come.

first worry comes from the phoronix benchmark of the alpha (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=fedora_13alpha_bench&num=1), second one comes out of nowhere just because i am not as familiar with fedora.

excited to get going on fedora!

thanks!

smr54
14th April 2010, 01:43 AM
Keep in mind that alpha may have a lot of debugging code in it still. (Note use of the word "may"--I'm not 100 percent sure of that.

It might help, however, if you describe what you dislike about Ubuntu's direction, as they are really rather similar in many ways.

RahulSundaram
14th April 2010, 01:48 AM
Hi,

Yes. Fedora development/test releases have extensive debugging features enabled that will likely slow down performance but give the developers better and more detailed information in case of bug reports.

blackrim
14th April 2010, 02:11 AM
Thanks for the prompt replies.

Noted about the possible performance issues, so I will wait until Release Candidate (right?) before going to 13 as performance (I am doing scientific computing) is essential. How are upgrades in Fedora? If I go with 12 for the next month and then upgrade am I likely to have a good experience or should I be doing clean installs if I can (which I can, just annoying).

As for the ubuntu vs fedora issues, I just don't like many of the usability decisions made for 10.04 (meaning they chose usability over functionality). Feel like I have to de-shuttleworth for half and hour. Not trying to start a flame-war though, just a constant preference of mine butting up against a constantly changing ubuntu.

Thanks again

bruce89
14th April 2010, 02:14 AM
As for the ubuntu vs fedora issues, I just don't like many of the usability decisions made for 10.04 (meaning they chose usability over functionality). Feel like I have to de-shuttleworth for half and hour. Not trying to start a flame-war though, just a constant preference of mine butting up against a constantly changing ubuntu.

Sounds similar to my reasons for leaving about a year ago. I've settled now on Fedora, and I'm finding things to be very nice.

GoinEasy9
14th April 2010, 04:53 AM
F13 Beta is running very stable on my machines. Installing the Beta and just updating till final release would be easier than installing F12 and upgrading later.

blackrim
14th April 2010, 05:25 AM
F13 Beta is running very stable on my machines. Installing the Beta and just updating till final release would be easier than installing F12 and upgrading later.

good to know. so programs with debugging flags that may affect performance are upgraded as well?

smr54
14th April 2010, 05:34 AM
Yes, they would be. Phoronix, while worthwhile in many ways, has done this before, benchmarked a Fedora full of debugging code.

However, the butting head against the wall of constant change.... I suspect you will run into that with Fedora as well, and often, the thing that will affect *you* is buried in the release notes (because they are copious and generally extremely informative. They do try to break it up into things like for sysadmins, for users, and the like, but sometimes the minor changes get lumped in with the major, and you miss the major.)

bob
14th April 2010, 12:19 PM
(moved to F13 Development)

bruce89
14th April 2010, 07:22 PM
Yes, they would be. Phoronix, while worthwhile in many ways, has done this before, benchmarked a Fedora full of debugging code.

I was under the impression that debug symbols were stripped, and put in the -debuginfo packages. Is this the case?

GoinEasy9
14th April 2010, 07:32 PM
@bruce89 I was about to say something, I haven't experienced a slowdown with F13, and I did notice that the debuginfo-install packages were being accessed when an incident occurred. So I would assume that there are no debugging code/flags that will slow up the distro, and no changes or upgrades when released.
Unless I've made the wrong assumption.

AdamW
14th April 2010, 08:55 PM
The kernel package has debugging symbols embedded in it during pre-release cycles, but in released versions, they're stripped. This can affect performance. I think a couple other packages are in the same boat.

It's something that can be overplayed, though. 'Performance' in general often is. You are very unlikely to actually notice as much of a 20% difference in 'performance' as measured by benchmarks, in most cases. Practically speaking, I can't spot the difference between running a released and a beta Fedora on my system, even though I'm sure benchmarks would notice something.

If you install the Beta you will be automatically updated to the final release when it comes out, you won't need to do anything, and it should behave much as if you'd done a fresh install of the final release. If you're not worried about the odd dodgy update before F13 goes final (though there shouldn't really be many now we're post-beta), I'd say you'll probably be fine running the Beta. I'd give it a try first, at least, before going to F12 if you find problems or you really do have performance issues.

blackrim
14th April 2010, 09:35 PM
Thanks for all the helpful info. Giving it a try, but stuck on a blank screen with the live f13 beta probably because I need the newest NVIDIA official driver (at least this is also the case with ubuntu). I suppose I should post this in a new thread , but since people are responsive here, is there any guide for this info (somehow getting a desktop so i can install f13 and then how to get the most recent driver for NVIDIA installed)?

AdamW
14th April 2010, 09:46 PM
when does the blank screen happen exactly?

if you have a very new nvidia card you may want to try this image:

http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gfx_test_week_20100412/gfx_test_week_20100412_x86-64.iso

I built it for the graphics test week that's going on, but it's perfectly usable as a general-purpose live image. It has some fixes that didn't land in the Beta, it may work where the Beta didn't.

blackrim
14th April 2010, 09:59 PM
blank screen happens after an initial fedora screen (very beginning when first starts to boot). goes blank and the drive is spinning for a while , seems to be loading things and then nothing. no keystrokes get me out, nothing. have to hard kill.

thanks for the image. i will definitely give it a try. if it works, then i can just install from that image right? and what is the difference (just so i know when i go to mess with graphics bit later -- assuming things work)

AdamW
14th April 2010, 10:25 PM
yes, you can install from it. Difference is just that it has a few packages updated to very fresh builds:

http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=166715
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=166505
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=161839

you can also try removing 'rhgb quiet' from the kernel params and see if it gives more info on the failure (or even helps).

blackrim
15th April 2010, 02:40 AM
unfortunately still a no go. i took out quiet and rhgb and still nothing. once it tries to load nouveau (i see those race on the screen) the screen goes black and then nothing more happens except for cd spinning. obviously that stops eventually. i am running a nvidia 380M Quadro FX (on a hp elitebook 8440w).

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM CDT ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM CDT ----------


if you have a very new nvidia card you may want to try this image:

http://adamwill.fedorapeople.org/gfx_test_week_20100412/gfx_test_week_20100412_x86-64.iso

I built it for the graphics test week that's going on, but it's perfectly usable as a general-purpose live image.

Just figured out that this (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2010-04-13_Nouveau) is what you were talking about. New to fedora, so not up on that news. At any rate, is it too late to do a bug report on this one (or are you on top of it AdamW). Still been messing around with no success in getting past a blank screen.

Thanks

helloworld1
15th April 2010, 04:20 AM
Disable the update-testing repo right after installation. This will result in a much more stable system.

GoinEasy9
15th April 2010, 04:27 AM
Disabling updates-testing before release may give you a stable system, but won't get you updates. Updates repo only goes active after release.

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 04:45 AM
Hi,

Precisely. Without updates-testing, you will forever struck in a development snapshot. Do not do that. The updates in that repo fix important bugs.

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 04:45 AM
Hi,

Precisely. Without updates-testing, you will forever struck in a development snapshot. Do not do that. The updates in that repo fix important bugs.

blackrim
15th April 2010, 05:30 AM
Hi,

Precisely. Without updates-testing, you will forever struck in a development snapshot. Do not do that. The updates in that repo fix important bugs.

No worries on that front for me because I can't get past the blank screen on live cd boot. Problem with the graphics driver for me.

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 05:32 AM
Hi,

You need to file a bug report against the Xorg driver you are using on that system.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_debug_Xorg_problems

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 05:32 AM
Hi,

You need to file a bug report against the Xorg driver you are using on that system.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_debug_Xorg_problems

blackrim
15th April 2010, 05:37 AM
Hi,

You need to file a bug report against the Xorg driver you are using on that system.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_debug_Xorg_problems

Will be glad to, but a little confused about which driver I am using. I am assuming it is the nouveau driver, but I don't know past that because the screen goes blank before it fully boots and the loading while booting is a little fast for me to catch. So I am happy to file, but the best info I can give is what I currently run successfully (on ubuntu -- NVIDIA 195.36.15) and my card NVIDIA Quatro FX 380M (mobile chip on a HP elitebook 8440w) and the fact that it gets a blank screen after trying to load the nouveau driver. Is that enough?

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 05:40 AM
Hi,

If you have a Nvidia chipset, then you are using the Nouveau driver. You can gather the logs by booting into runlevel 3 from the Live CD/ USB. We don't have much time before the release. So please file it asap.

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 05:40 AM
Hi,

If you have a Nvidia chipset, then you are using the Nouveau driver. You can gather the logs by booting into runlevel 3 from the Live CD/ USB. We don't have much time before the release. So please file it asap.

blackrim
15th April 2010, 05:54 AM
Hi,

If you have a Nvidia chipset, then you are using the Nouveau driver. You can gather the logs by booting into runlevel 3 from the Live CD/ USB. We don't have much time before the release. So please file it asap.

Hm, trying to do that now, but adding 3 to the boot line doesn't seem to let it go to text mode. Am I getting this wrong?

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 06:37 AM
Hi.

You have to use "text". See

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options

RahulSundaram
15th April 2010, 06:37 AM
Hi.

You have to use "text". See

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options

AdamW
15th April 2010, 08:36 PM
You will get updates if you disable the updates-testing repo, because updates that pass updates-testing go into the main Fedora 13 repo (dist-f13 tag). But they'll come through slower and you won't be able to contribute to the process of making sure the updated packages work okay, via Bodhi - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Updates_Testing .

blackrim: please do file a bug, yep, as Rahul suggests. Let us know if you have trouble.

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