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View Full Version : Just came back and I'm already peeved!


Mikecore
20th February 2010, 06:30 PM
I just erased a long rant about the dev's and making **** hard to use ( nvidia driver ) but it really don't matter! Ubuntu/Debian is always gonna kick fedora rear because of these type of policies. Ya know I been using linux as my only OS since 2003, I know what I'm doing its not like i'm a noob, the dev's here have always had this attitude with certain things, it really stupid! the only thing stupider is me for even bothering.

Dan
20th February 2010, 06:41 PM
(Moved to Reviews, Rants & Things That Make You Scream)

dmyersturnbull
20th February 2010, 06:58 PM
dev's here have always had this attitude with certain things, it really stupid!

No, itís not stupid; itís policy. Not including proprietary software 1) protects users, 2) protects Fedora and RedHat, and 3) makes a statement about the feasibility of an open‐source world.


Ubuntu/Debian is always gonna kick fedora rear

Thatís a moronic attitude. And alsoÖ Debian?!!
Debian refused to package Firefox because Firefox supported installing proprietary extensions. Debian has always been far harsher about its open‐source policy.

I consider Fedoraís policy an advantage. If you donít, youíre free to switch distros.

Dan
20th February 2010, 07:03 PM
Folks ... the guy is already obviously having a bad enough day without calling him or his attitude moronic.

Fedora is a good fit for some, but not for others. It is also an evolving target. Give MINT a try. A lot of folks who have difficulties with fedora find some comfort there.

Dies
20th February 2010, 08:36 PM
...
Debian refused to package Firefox because Firefox supported installing proprietary extensions. Debian has always been far harsher about its open‐source policy.
...
Interesting, I thought the Firefox issue was over them not being allowed to make the changes they wanted to and still call it Firefox. But of course I was also under the impression that Debian had a "non-free" section full of stuff Fedora would never ship.


@ Mikecore

For the most part I agree with what you're saying. But then again, it's been obvious that Fedora was heading down that path for quite some time so it shouldn't really come as any surprise. ;)

leigh123linux
20th February 2010, 08:44 PM
I just erased a long rant about the dev's and making **** hard to use ( nvidia driver ) but it really don't matter! Ubuntu/Debian is always gonna kick fedora rear because of these type of policies. Ya know I been using linux as my only OS since 2003, I know what I'm doing its not like i'm a noob, the dev's here have always had this attitude with certain things, it really stupid! the only thing stupider is me for even bothering.


Wrong :p , nouveau will be included as standard in kernel 2.6.33

Dies
20th February 2010, 08:50 PM
Wrong :p , nouveau will be included as standard in kernel 2.6.33

I can almost assure you that Ubuntu and other distros will still find a way to make it easy ( to install proprietary drivers ) for their users. :p

leigh123linux
20th February 2010, 08:58 PM
I can almost assure you that Ubuntu and other distros will still find a way to make it easy ( to install proprietary drivers ) for their users. :p

That would be a pleasant surprise :cool: , they normally nick patches from other dev's

They nicked my emerald patch

http://bugs.opencompositing.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1248

it's included in the latest lucid (http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/) emerald diff patch

http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/emerald

forkbomb
20th February 2010, 08:59 PM
3) makes a statement about the feasibility of an open‐source world.Feasibility? Well, sure, if by feasibility you mean "a large number of users almost immediately enable third-party repos to install a variety of proprietary software." I mean, I'll give you #2 (Fedora has plenty of reasons to engage in CYA tactics) and maybe #1 depending on what your meaning is by that, but look at all the threads around here about enabling the myriad of proprietary bits that the vast majority of desktop users eventually have need for.

But, hey, I guess it's "feasible" to run my machine without flash and not listen to my 60GB of MP3s.

Dies
20th February 2010, 09:27 PM
That would be a pleasant surprise :cool: , they normally nick patches from other dev's
...
Yeah, did you want them to re-invent the wheel? Next time license it under NFU ( Not For U buntu ) instead of GPL :D

But yeah, as far as these drivers making into the kernel, that's cool, but if they become a hassle I have no doubt the modules will get broken out into separate easy to get rid of packages.

...
But, hey, I guess it's "feasible" to run my machine without flash and not listen to my 60GB of MP3s.
Absolutely feasible, not very enjoyable though, not unless you're a hardcore FSF geek, I mean member. :p

leigh123linux
20th February 2010, 09:53 PM
Yeah, did you want them to re-invent the wheel? Next time license it under NFU ( Not For U buntu ) instead of GPL :D

But yeah, as far as these drivers making into the kernel, that's cool, but if they become a hassle I have no doubt the modules will get broken out into separate easy to get rid of packages.


Absolutely feasible, not very enjoyable though, not unless you're a hardcore FSF geek, I mean member. :p

I think I will use the NF (needs finishing) license next time :)

steelaworkn
20th February 2010, 10:45 PM
I have both a Fedora and a Debian machine. Both are nice and I have them running the same apps. Nvidia is a little easier to install on Debian. Unless you need the 3d stuff, the Nouveau driver works really well.

Let's see, both have good documentation, but the Fedora Forum really rocks. Guys on here just know their stuff and are really willing to share it. The Debian forum guys (and I'm on there too) really like to refer you to read. Until you have read all their stuff, they really don't want to talk all that much.

Up until last week, I thought GNU was just some Linux distribution that had an exotic animal fetish. It is much more than that and newbees to Linux should really put their reading glasses on an spend some time surfing and reading. The GNU/Linux way of doing things is a lot of fun. Ahhh, there was a documentary someone referred on a different thread that can be googled and watched on googe video. Someone know what that was????

smr54
20th February 2010, 11:59 PM
Ubuntu's slogan is Linux For Human Beings, which I take to mean that their aim is produce a reasonable substitute for MS/Apple. The fact that MS is more popular is listed as their number one bug.

So, their goals are different than Fedora's goals. In theory, Fedora is the one who puts in a broken pulseaudio by default, with the aid of their irate users, fixes it, then Ubuntu puts it in. That is NOT saying Ubuntu is stealing from Fedora, it means that Fedora's purpose, in many ways, is to be the first with new, relatively untried things, while Ubuntu's purpose is to give its users something that their parents will use without asking for tech support.

Both are heavily slanted towards the desktop user, and require some expertise to get a system going that doesn't have all the desktop bloat.

As for the Gnu thing--I admire those who do it, but it gets in the way of practical work. I can't say to my boss (who is actually rather sympathetic to opensource), sorry, I won't use Skype to communicate with you guys because it's not open source. Our people offsite will have to communicate with me in some other way. Shucks, I can't even tell my wife that no, she can't use Skype to call me from overseas. :D

Things like calling firefox iceweasel and thunderbird--what do they call it? Lightningreptile or something?--while I understand there are reasons, the end result seems silly. It makes it more difficult to use in say, the enterprise, when certain basic hardware won't work.

As for noveau, from what I saw on slashdot recently, it will actually support 3D in F13. If they get it together to the point where it works as well as the proprietary drivers, then that will indicate that with perseverance and lot of gnashing of teeth (Gnash, get it?) eventually one will be able to avoid the inconvenience of having to get the drivers from NVidia, although it is nice of them to provide very functional Linux drivers, something many vendors refuse to do.

aleph
21st February 2010, 03:39 AM
In theory, Fedora is the one who puts in a broken pulseaudio by default, with the aid of their irate users, fixes it, then Ubuntu puts it in.

In theory, it is. In practice however, it's like this: Fedora is the one who puts in a broken pulseaudio by default, with the aid of their irate users, fixes it; then Ubuntu takes the fixed version, cripples and breaks it, and put it in, blaming Fedora.

There, fixed that for you. :p

smr54
21st February 2010, 04:28 AM
That's why I said, "In theory." :D
I did have to laugh--got an email from an Ubuntu using friend, raging about pulse audio--to which I responded, I use Fedora and I've been complaining about it for longer than you.

It's still not that complex to remove from Ubuntu. It's become extremely difficult (at least with only cursory research) to remove from Fedora.

However, at least with Fedora and skype, there's only a one second lag or so, whereas with Ubuntu, it's more like three seconds. (Note that this was a skype test, with the other party in the next room.) :)
Of course, in Arch, where one can choose what sound system to use, using alsa, it worked properly. This was using the newest Skype, which has supposedly fixed the issues they had with pulseaudio.

Anyway, it was simply an example as to why, in many cases, Ubuntu should work better than Fedora. In practice, I find them about the same for my needs. Fedora works better with Skype, Ubuntu works better with my ath9k wireless. Arch does a better job with both things.

Mikecore
21st February 2010, 05:14 AM
First off I don't need to run Mint. I'm more then capable of running a Fedora box that is not the point, Second Deb doesn't like Firefox but they don't go out of there way to make installing it any harder then any other package. Redhat/Fedora does just that. It started off with redhat 6 and xmms/mp3 and has been retarded ever since. Christ I remember when linux people were beggin for companies to write drivers for linux now thats not good enough it has to be open too. So you don't like closed drivers, fine but don't make it difficult to use them. This crapy azz open driver doesn't even support 3D. so what now just live without it right. The only reason redhat/fedora don't like the closed driver is because they can't control it, If you think any thing else your lying to yourself.

kevmif
21st February 2010, 05:24 AM
I was about to commend Dan on his excellent attitude towards people who rant / have different ideas to long term Fedora users - but do you really, truly, honestly think that the difficulty associated with non free is a design 'feature'? If you do, the previous comments written by someone else about your attitude are accurate.

I can tell you right now that people who have been interested in the Fedora philosophy have driven development of open source drivers we never had before. Fedoras methodology has opened up Linux in so many ways and has really stimulated development of open formats.

If you don't accept the methodology, that is fine - that is why alternatives (like Ubuntu and Mint) exist.

leigh123linux
21st February 2010, 05:26 AM
First off I don't need to run Mint. I'm more then capable of running a Fedora box that is not the point, Second Deb doesn't like Firefox but they don't go out of there way to make installing it any harder then any other package. Redhat/Fedora does just that. It started off with redhat 6 and xmms/mp3 and has been retarded ever since. Christ I remember when linux people were beggin for companies to write drivers for linux now thats not good enough it has to be open too. So you don't like closed drivers, fine but don't make it difficult to use them. This crapy azz open driver doesn't even support 3D. so what now just live without it right. The only reason redhat/fedora don't like the closed driver is because they can't control it, If you think any thing else your lying to yourself.


F13 will have 3D :p

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=240573

dmyersturnbull
21st February 2010, 05:30 AM
Feasibility? Well, sure, if by feasibility you mean "a large number of users almost immediately enable third-party repos to install a variety of proprietary software." I mean, I'll give you #2 (Fedora has plenty of reasons to engage in CYA tactics) and maybe #1 depending on what your meaning is by that, but look at all the threads around here about enabling the myriad of proprietary bits that the vast majority of desktop users eventually have need for.

But, hey, I guess it's "feasible" to run my machine without flash and not listen to my 60GB of MP3s.

1) mp3 is not proprietary, and 2) the open alternatives to Flash work well for almost all sites (plus, Flash is a piece of junk). My current desktop configuration has very little and no necessary proprietary software. In the past, I have used no proprietary software. It works fine. Also, Fedora isnít only for desktop users; my server was, at one point, entirely (well, except for BIOS drivers) open source.
But I think this is besides the point. Fedora is still under active development because itís unfinished. Perhaps even an open alternative to Skype will be available sometime ;)

sonoran
21st February 2010, 08:43 AM
1) mp3 is not proprietary,

Trying to read the wikipedia article on "proprietary software" gave me a headache.:confused: Whether or not mp3 could be considered proprietary, it is a patented format, which is why fedora and others won't include mp3 players in their releases.

dmyersturnbull
21st February 2010, 09:18 AM
Trying to read the wikipedia article on "proprietary software" gave me a headache.:confused: Whether or not mp3 could be considered proprietary, it is a patented format, which is why fedora and others won't include mp3 players in their releases.

Very true. I donít think it would be considered proprietary, though I suppose it might qualify in as proprietary in a very literal sense. I understand why Fedora wonít package it.

My point was only that, since implementations of it are open source, it wouldnít hinder my ďopen‐sourceĒ world. :)

forkbomb
21st February 2010, 10:24 AM
1) mp3 is not proprietary, and 2) the open alternatives to Flash work well for almost all sites (plus, Flash is a piece of junk).
1) mp3's IP status is essentially contested. The way I understand it, the codec itself isn't problematic because it's proprietary or because it's open, but because nobody really knows. :p Various companies "apparently" (there's that wonderful word) claim patents on various parts of the mp3 implementation, but those claims have been disputed. Suffice it to say that may have been a bad example. 2) Not disagreeing that Flash is crap. (Very few websites have a legitimate reason to use it (and some web developers should be slapped around for insisting on using it for certain websites), and for the most part Flash should be shoveled onto the slag heap of history along with its memory leaks and processor-grabbing.)

In any case, those were only two examples that immediately jumped to mind. Probably not the best examples.

Personally I'm more inclined to throw my support behind open networking & web standards, protocols, and technologies than to get all hot and bothered about things like codecs and proprietary video card drivers. (Though to be fair I'll use any Linux video driver that's easy to install and works decent enough. It's not like I demand peak performance out of my video card for Linux gaming or something. :rolleyes: )

JN4OldSchool
21st February 2010, 03:16 PM
First off I don't need to run Mint. I'm more then capable of running a Fedora box that is not the point, Second Deb doesn't like Firefox but they don't go out of there way to make installing it any harder then any other package. Redhat/Fedora does just that. It started off with redhat 6 and xmms/mp3 and has been retarded ever since. Christ I remember when linux people were beggin for companies to write drivers for linux now thats not good enough it has to be open too. So you don't like closed drivers, fine but don't make it difficult to use them. This crapy azz open driver doesn't even support 3D. so what now just live without it right. The only reason redhat/fedora don't like the closed driver is because they can't control it, If you think any thing else your lying to yourself.

I have ran Linux for 10 years now. I can install and use Gentoo, slack, I currently use Arch, and I have used every Fedora from 4 to 9 full time and have at least installed and tweaked 10, 11, and 12. My 8 year old son runs F12, he installed it all by himself including proprietary drivers and codecs. Fedora is not retarded, just some users. ;) But the point of my post is I use Mint on many computers. Linux is Linux, Mint is no different than Arch other than it is an easy 10 minute complete install with everything working. Sometimes that convenience is nice. Especially on kid's computers where they constantly break things and instead of troubleshooting and wasting time trying to figure out why it will no longer shut down or why the panel disappeared and you cant get it back a quick 10 minute install is a quick, easy solution.

Mikecore, I have conversed with you in the past, you seem like a decent guy. Just drop it. Sure, you are frustrated, Fedora is not for you. I have left Fedora in disgust myself, my problem, no one else's. It is still a leading distro with millions of users and whether or not you agree with it there is now a direction and strong philosophy. They are going out of their way to try and get a large core of users to contribute to the project. If you do not want to play fine. Do like I did and just GO AWAY and let these guys take Linux into the future. Try Mint, it is hassle free. If it makes you feel stupid for some foolish reason then try Arch. It is what you build it to be. It is not like there are not many other choices.

Mikecore
21st February 2010, 08:49 PM
I have ran Linux for 10 years now. I can install and use Gentoo, slack, I currently use Arch, and I have used every Fedora from 4 to 9 full time and have at least installed and tweaked 10, 11, and 12. My 8 year old son runs F12, he installed it all by himself including proprietary drivers and codecs. Fedora is not retarded, just some users. ;) But the point of my post is I use Mint on many computers. Linux is Linux, Mint is no different than Arch other than it is an easy 10 minute complete install with everything working. Sometimes that convenience is nice. Especially on kid's computers where they constantly break things and instead of troubleshooting and wasting time trying to figure out why it will no longer shut down or why the panel disappeared and you cant get it back a quick 10 minute install is a quick, easy solution.

Mikecore, I have conversed with you in the past, you seem like a decent guy. Just drop it. Sure, you are frustrated, Fedora is not for you. I have left Fedora in disgust myself, my problem, no one else's. It is still a leading distro with millions of users and whether or not you agree with it there is now a direction and strong philosophy. They are going out of their way to try and get a large core of users to contribute to the project. If you do not want to play fine. Do like I did and just GO AWAY and let these guys take Linux into the future. Try Mint, it is hassle free. If it makes you feel stupid for some foolish reason then try Arch. It is what you build it to be. It is not like there are not many other choices.

I apologize for causing a stir you are correct. I'll drop this, I should have just kept quiet.

Dan
21st February 2010, 08:58 PM
And with that ... in response to the OP's round-about request ...


Thread closed.