Considering a change

[pploco]

I have loved Redhat since my infancy as a penquin-lovin geek. But after bustin my knuckles on stupid quirks - I am considering leaving my first linux love.

I am sick of poor documentation on Fedora when other distros are oozing with docs. Little changes here and there that are just different enough to break simple builds. Today was the last straw. I have been trying to run the latest version of Freeradius with eap-ttls on Fedora only to find one headache after another - having to create symbolic links to get stuff to compile pisses me off.

Any thoughts?

[ewdi]

Well, fedora is basically a test bed for Redhat EL, but i do understand what you mean by those frustration, however some of us just love the idea playing around with those kind of troubles :)

I mean if you like the one you have, stick with it, dont upgrade it :) my laptop is still running RHEL Workstation 3 :)

[taylor65]

I've used RH since 7.3, but I understand completely. I have the following issues with FC2:
- hardware support problems (firewire, wireless)
- not being able to add menu items to gnome
- x.org transition was poor, caused problems with xnest
- problems with mounting windows shares

However, the good points are:
- free
- good repos available (especially dag!)
- good forum support

So, if Mandrakeclub were cheaper, I'd probably be using Mandrake at home. If I could, I would try SUSE at work. But, all things considered, I plan on installing FC3 when it comes out. If it has as many problems that affect my daily use as FC2, I will probably move to Mandrake. But the posts that people have made about FC3t3 sound like it's a much more stable release than FC2 (I remember testing FC2 test releases, and they were so bad that one of them wouldn't even bring up gnome).

[Jman]

Feel free to choose.

I can't really recommend any distros as I use Fedora almost exclusively.

[pploco]

You know, I really dont mind the lack of hardware support and the difficulty with documentation so much as I hate the stupid little changes - Oh like this one... Someone please tell me why FC2 had to change the redhat-config-whatever syntax? Does it negatively effect the distro. I would argue no. Or this... why in FC1 is a file needed for Kerberos moved from /usr/include to /usr/include/et ... WTF! Its the only freekin file in the directory.

My point is this: I love linux. I love that it allows me the freedom to create and manage services. I love that it costs me nothing more than a leftover machine and a ssh terminal to run. I am getting sick of silly little, insignificant changes that IMHO do nothing more than annoy. One would argue that the same is true of all other distros including Billy-boy's scab-job <cough>, but the basic fundamentals and structure of an OS shouldn't change just because (ruling out needed patches and upgrades).

Am I off on this? Truth be told, I will probably stick with what I know and deal with the changes. I guess its just venting. :o

[sailor]

I use Suse 9.1 on my second harddrive you can download the personel edition free...1 CD
you can then set Yast to update from the Suse repositories to get additional stuff not on the CD
however, I ran into problems when I updated the kernel , so I have gone back to the 2.6.4 kernel so it is not without problems either.
I still wonder why FC 3 was even started on when the problems of FC2 were never worked out. I am getting ready to wipe the whole partition and start over or maybe I should wait till FC3 is stable?

[mark]

I use Suse 9.1 on my second harddrive you can download the personel edition free...1 CD
you can then set Yast to update from the Suse repositories to get additional stuff not on the CD
however, I ran into problems when I updated the kernel , so I have gone back to the 2.6.4 kernel so it is not without problems either.
I still wonder why FC 3 was even started on when the problems of FC2 were never worked out. I am getting ready to wipe the whole partition and start over or maybe I should wait till FC3 is stable? sailorsgh, I'm starting wonder a bit, myself. Yes, I understand that Fedora is Red Hat's "bleeding edge", but is forcing a release just to meet a possibly unrealistic schedule of great benefit to anyone?

This is not a shot at Fedora specifically - I've been "sampling" distros lately and it seems to be endemic to the Linux community at large. Maybe it's "anything you can do, I can do better" - "my kernel is a higher-version number than yours" (kernel envy?) Maybe it's time for everybody to stop, take a deep breath and think about what they really want to accomplish . "Just because you can , should you?"

And, yes, I say this as one that probably shouldn't...as my signature states, I'm not a programmer. I have contributed no patches or fixes - at most, I've been able to share some of my experiences and insight as a reasonably competent user. But when I download, verify checksums, burn & media-check the DVD and then install the final test release of a major distribution, I would expect it to at least boot. It didn't. And, no, I did not file a bugzilla report - I gave up in frustration & tossed the disc on the "reuse" stack. (Not to mention the bugzilla interface - aarrgghh!)

I fear a backlash if this trend continues - "Linux has some really good points, but can those guys come up with something that just works ???"

[Dog-One]

Here's a quick refresher. (http://fedora.redhat.com/about/objectives.html)

I don't know if these are listed in priority order, but if they are, notice 5 comes before 6. ;)

[Shadow Skill]

Absolutely not IMO just look at Debians insane "installer" you have to use the testing version in order to get something that resembles hardware auto detection (which doesn't really truly detect my laptops hardware..) for some unimaginable reason they expect you to know the exact refresh rates of your monitor as well (My IBM thinkpad's manual says nothing about it, and it is only recently that I found out what they were because some Gentoo user posted his configuration for the model I happen to own.) it's a shame too since apt works best for debian (The rpm port is so pathetic in comparison, at least there is YUM.) Of course some people think the problem is with the USER for not knowing every single dammned detail of his hardware (Including the stuff not even listed for god's sake!) of couse it's also clear that people who think this way have no concept of reality. I do not understand why the Debian developers cannot get off their ass and put together a genuine installer for ALL of their releases that allows for point and click selection (At the very least real hardware detection.) and allow for the more knowledgeable users to hand configure as per Gentoo.

Now let's look at Suse....They omitted gcc and pkg_config from their default personal install that alone is enough; but they also don't seem to have truly good package management I don't see why Yast doesn't already have YUM or APT functionality aside from system updating. (Correct me if I am wrong.) Plus APT is really, really craptapular for Suse. It also does weird things like trying to activate laptop power management tools on a desktop. Did I mention they default to KDE. [booo KDE boo :D ]

Now for Mandrake...They lied it isn't as user friendly as they say it is. I used it for a while on my desktop and it was just a pain as various things did not behave as they should etc. (More so than any Fedora release I have tried.) On my Laptop it sometimes would not detect my trackball after it had finished installing......

Now for lovely Fedora why in the hell can't they just enable ntfs read support out of the box this would be especially helpful for the test releases since currently you MUST either build the module yourself and insert it into the Kernel [Didn't work for me, I had to make a custom one.] or recompile the Kernel with ntfs read enabled which does mean you won't be using RH's Kernel's. I have also noticed that certain commands only seem to work from a console workspace (f1-f6) and not from an X terminal program...namely the init command and certain commands for setting processes to run at a given runlevel. Personally I find documentation to be near worthless simply because it is never written in a way that displays EXACTLY how a command or flag is to be used...I can tell there is an auto generator for man pages since all of them suffer from this regardless of distro or program. (those that have man pages.) The community really needs to learn common sense in that department. I only am able to figure out some of the supposed manuals because I come here. Other than that everything that I need to work does work (outside of the community wide problems.)

But even then Fedora does take quite a bit of configuring before it behaves properly, the "just work" aspects of Linux just has not forced its way into the heads of the OS developers in general outside of websurfing and email. (maybe.)

[sailor]

I have to disagree with you about Suse, it is easy enough to get the omitted packages you mentioned through YAST. (you can change the source from CD to online repositories)
YAST is not just for updating and will find dependancies and install the packages, something YUM and APT do not do.
YAST does far more than just update. It has repositories (probably not as many choices), but I bet you there is a RPM for anything you could possibly need.
YAST is composed of several modules, YOU is the "Yast Online Update" which is merely a part of YAST. I think it is the package manager all distros should try to emulate. Suse is one distro I would consider buying.

I agree about Mandrake, I had nothing but problems with it.

I just re-installed FC2 tonight and it is working beautifully, but I doubt I will upgrade the kernel anytime soon. I don't want to have deal problems for which there is no solution, yet.

[superbnerd]

YAST is not just for updating and will find dependancies and install the packages, something YUM and APT do not do. Actually yum does update and find dependancies when they are available. Thats is the whole point of yum - to end dep hell and make updating and installing easy. Who told you yum did not find dependancies?

I can not speak for apt becuse I don't use it.

[Shadow Skill]

Apt appears to handle "dephell" on Debian I am honestly not entirely sure about the rpm port..I think it tries to but just sucks at it. Yum is better at "Dephell" however its SLOW, god freaking awful slow. The testing version is slightly better but it still crawls in comparison to apt when run in an X terminal, it seems to behave alittle better in a pure console environment. Something needs to be done about YUM's slowness ASAP.

[sailor]

Who told you yum did not find dependancies?

Ok I meant doesn't do it well...:) or as well as Yast. I have run into depedancies problems with yum, but I guess it could be attributed to the repositories I am using?

and before anyone asks:
No, I am not leaving Fedora for another distro. Suse is my backup when I have broken FC2...and I do sometimes forget that we are on the leading edge and are testers so I shouldn't always expect everything ot work perfectly...:p

[superbnerd]

Indeed. FC2 is realy fedora core 0.2. These are beta releases for rhel and were are they testers. Enjoy.

[pploco]

So where is it all heading? Which distro is the least prone to silly little kinks. I'm asking those of you who have sampled the goods.

[superbnerd]

What do you want, a server or a desktop? For the server, rhel is the one to get, or you can get a free version of rhel calles WhiteBox (http://www.whiteboxlinux.org/). Both are based on fedora but are much more stable and have a longer life span per release. WhiteBox is basically rhel without the support contract.

Fedora is a linux distro that is on the cutting edge geared towards linux entusiast. Most people forget that becuase fedora is initially so easy to install, but it is very fast paced nd thus prone to more bugs. However, most newbies say fedora is the best desktop linux compared to suse and mandrake. Fedora has a nice professional bluecurve look while being very easy to install and use for newbies.

You should test different distros if you are not satisfied with fedora. You should not, however, give up on linux becuase you did not like a particular distro.

[Tru]

I have SUSE 9.1 Pro and it was my distro of choice when i first got started I actually started with 9.0 Pro. It is a nice distro but it has nothing close to the great community of users that fedora does just go look at the Suse forums compared to here, and you say there is a lack of documantion with fedora I disagree just goto your local bookstore and there are at least 5 fedora core bibles, then try to find one for suse there isnt and prbly wont ever be one. If you are talking about that little admin guide you get with suse pro well that hardly compares to the ones you can buy for fedora.

There are somethings that bother me with fedora and suse but they are nothing that usally cant be worked around I have yet to have any real big problem and I am a linux newb.

Suse is a nice distro but if your going to get it spend the 70 bucks and get the pro version, dont waste your time with free personal. One nice thing about suse is the GUI for setting things up.

[bob]

I'll put my 2 cents worth in. SuSE works right out of the box, just like Windoze and it's another 'point and click', just like Windoze. The problem is that you learn very little while operating it and good luck if you, as a newbie, want to install something you found on the net. FC2 is faulty but FUN! It's the quirks that make you think and it's the forums that put you in touch with real human beings trying to keep the whole mess working.

Try SuSE for awhile, but my bet is that you'll be back to the 'bleeding edge' in short order.

[Tru]

[QUOTE=Try SuSE for awhile, but my bet is that you'll be back to the 'bleeding edge' in short order.[/QUOTE]

I agree; I have tried going back after using fedora core 2 and it just doesnt turn me on anymore, and I use to like KDE I still enjoy some of the eye candy but I think I will prbly stick with gnome, and for installing pkgs its way easier on fedora espically with yum.

[sailor]

If you are not into testing and working out bugs then I would have to suggest Suse 9.1.
I have to disagree with the other comments. I think it would be a waste to buy Suse 9.1 Pro unless you are setting up a server...etc (just get the free personel edition change the repository to a online repository, you will find all the stuff that is missing on the CD)

Xandros is another pretty solid distro although very limited. It is Debain based on the 2.4.20 kernel. It is what I started with until I became a little more comfortable with linux.

[pploco]

Superbnerd --- you da man! You answered my question. Suse wins the desktop handsdown, but I need a good STABLE server distro. I used to have it with RH9 but the last year or so has been rough working with Fedora. I need stuff to work. While I appreciate wanting to tinker, my selfish ways of having free and stable distros to do my bidding (elevate my status among peers and fatten my wallet) become more of a turn-on. I will play with whitebox.

See - spreadin' the love is what linux should be about.

[Shadow Skill]

Suse is garbage it decides to install power management daemon's for a laptop on a desktop [fedora does this as well but at least the damned powersave daemon doesn't try to start and piss me off every time I login unlike Suse.] I'd go with Debian or a Debian based distro apt is so much better on Debian it makes the rpm ports of Suse and Fedora look like a joke.

[Prometheus]

I dont think there is one. In my experience (limited as it may be) all the different distros have their own quirks and problems. I personally use Fedora because i like the fact that it is updated so often, and the fact that as near as i can tell, its nearly bomb proof (ive tried to make it explode on me to no avail, involved a very boring afternoon and lots of sugar, but wahtever). Yeah, setting some things up can be a pain (ie ATI gfx card or wireless card), but as near as i can tell set up issues exist in all te linux distros. I dont think there is one that is head and shoulders above the rest, IMO they are all decently close, and you need to pick which distro you use based on what YOU want to use it for. Yeah, i know, i didnt answer you question, but its the best i got.

[David]

I am sick of poor documentation on Fedora when other distros are oozing with docs.
I started writing some documentation for Fedora shortly before I moved home. Rather curious really, since I'm by no means an expert, but perhaps that gives me the advantage of not writing in code when talking to mere non-developers. At the moment, my PC (and Fedora OS) is still in storage, so the project is on hold. It has *not* been forgotten, merely postponed until I get my computer back.