Are you all nuts???

[hansd]

This will probably get me a lot of hatemail:) but....
I am a long time not experienced fedora user with, "if it runs donot touch"
When i wanted to install a nvidia driver in F12 i googled of course and you donot want to know what was advised to get this done and what problems needed to be solved on the road. E.g. commands of e.g. 3 lines long as one of the installation steps.

Now the question.... why is it so complicated to copy what WIndows does when software/drivers needed to be installed (setup.exe). The way it is now the Fedora guys, sorry to say, are living in the dark ages. I would feel ashamed to deliver something like this. I already had a bad feeling when 15 years ago, working on Unix when an error occurred, i got the message "oops an error has occured"

[Dan]

Yeah. We're all nuts.

Moved to Reviews, Rants & Things That Make You Scream (http://www.wiseacre-gardens.com/sound/marvin03.wav). <..:cool:..>

[hansd]

thought so, probably all nice nuts also :)

[glennzo]

Yep. I'm out of my mind, but at the same time I would say that I'm pretty much in control of my destiny as it relates to all things computer.

[forkbomb]

Well, UNIX would be one hair away from the dark ages.

Personally I'll never understand why so many people seem to assume that using the command line is "backwards" or "obsolete." Perception is a function of experience.

Maybe using a mysterious setup.exe with mysterious contents is what we ought to get rid of. Perhaps .exe click-monkeying is what's backwards.

[hansd]

i had the same feeling about command lines when, using DOS, windows came around with that mouse thing and clicks and icons. Took me 2 years to step over and 1 year more to see this was the best invention ever.

[forkbomb]

Well, mice are good for some things. GUIs are inherently great for management of multiple tasks. For everyday multitasking, the GUI-with-mouse paradigm is a boon.

Nevertheless, sorry to say, but command line interfaces are still king, after all these years, at doing some things. Especially if you're experienced and know exactly what you need to do, and need to do it now. Still, it really is a function of familiarity. Though I wouldn't get rid of my GUI for doing everyday stuff, it actually still does make sense to hotkey as many tasks as possible to the keyboard even when you are using a GUI.

As I have been known to quip - I don't know about you, but I have two hands.

[hansd]

you're totally right if you are designing the next generation nuke missile, i for shure would want to know what i am doing, but for installing a driver????. I do not care at all what i am doing, just want it to work.

[scottro]

I would say that command line is still quite usable, and often preferable. Even WIndows has added a powershell or something simlar recently.
For example, at my old job a user had to rename 500 images--she thought she would have to do it with a GUI application, one by one. As it was stored on a Unux server, I wrote a script and did it for her in two minutes.

As for installing things like drivers, unfortunately, this is more political than anything else. It has to do with remaining open source--Fedora actually pays people to try to create drivers so that you won't have to do all that typing. It's not ready for primetime yet, however.

For what it's worth, Fedora and many others are working hard to make WIndows/Mac users happy, where everything will be nicely hiddent from the user behind graphic interfaces.

[hansd]

Right about the e.g. bulk rename. Am a bit lazier, needed it, googled and found Bulk Rename Utility, freeware, gui Took me 1 minute (kidding, probably 2). However when i would have been an experienced unix scripter, which i am not, would not bother to google for a gui also.

[glennzo]

I actually enjoy the command line experience :)

[joe.pelayo]

If I am nuts because I use the command line, I am really enjoying it and wouldn't think twice to do it again!

Obviously you haven't got any task that can take advantage of automation or involve programming, have you Han?

In my case I am currently working with the combination BASH + FORTRAN to perform some programming and data analysis and I find it unbeatable (of course, there might be easier options, but give me a break!). Whenever I get tired or something I just have to think "thank you *nix for including a command line, what would I do without it?"

Thanks,
Joe.

[leigh123linux]

This will probably get me a lot of hatemail:) but....
I am a long time not experienced fedora user with, "if it runs donot touch"
When i wanted to install a nvidia driver in F12 i googled of course and you donot want to know what was advised to get this done and what problems needed to be solved on the road. E.g. commands of e.g. 3 lines long as one of the installation steps.

Now the question.... why is it so complicated to copy what WIndows does when software/drivers needed to be installed (setup.exe). The way it is now the Fedora guys, sorry to say, are living in the dark ages. I would feel ashamed to deliver something like this. I already had a bad feeling when 15 years ago, working on Unix when an error occurred, i got the message "oops an error has occured"


Are you insane? , after all you are silly enough to use Windows XP :p

[hansd]

are you all nuts was meant to say you all accepted installing a video driver was a 'pain in the ass' where it is seamless 1 minute in Win. No offence meant. Nothing against command lines, works wonderful sometimes, but i try to avoid it as much as possible. Do a lot of programming in my free time, nice to have, fun to do, did a lot of IT stuf in the past (fortran, assembler, pl/i, cobol, lot of database systems, worked on Sun unix, hated VI, and start to hate Nvidia:)

---------- Post added at 01:12 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM CST ----------

Are you insane? , after all you are silly enough to use Windows XP :p

yes, love it and i totally donot care if it's called windows or wondiws, made by gates or gotes as long as it does what i want most of the time :p

[forkbomb]

Well, fair enough I suppose, but whether or not a driver will "just work" has nothing to do, necessarily, with the installation method. There's is not necessarily a connection between GUI installation and ease of use.

Put it this way. GUIs aren't necessarily "easier" to use or more likely to give a "everything works" situation to the user. Double-clicking installs are not necessarily going to produce "it just works" situations. Command line usage isn't necessarily harder or more esoteric.

To me, one of the worst things about the dominance of Windows is that it has implanted into an entire generation of computer users the flawed assumption that command lines are evil and that click-monkeyism is necessarily better. Microsoft's domination has thrust into the average computer user's mind a (flawed) association of clicking with ease of use.

I firmly maintain that the most important reason why people see non-GUI methods as "hard" has to do almost entirely with familiarity. Before coming to Linux I literally did not want to touch a command line. Period. I figured that was for programmers. (The irony is that today I am still not a programmer and yet know a lot more about command line usage than the average programming student at my school.)

tl;dr: as another man once said far more eloquently, "the only intuitive interface is the nipple." (And he later said that even that is debatable.)

[JK3MP]

most of the time :p


:confused: ...only most of the time??? Yep sounds like windows :p

[Dan]

Hmmm.

Ayup.

I thought I heard the troll alarm going off.

<..:cool:..>

[JK3MP]

Hmmm.

Ayup.

I thought I heard the troll alarm going off.

<..:cool:..>

Are you sure? There's a lot of carolers with bells.

[hansd]

in my opinion not true, i see it as follows....
computers in general are there to make life a bit easier, and delivers a lot of information. So for me as a user they are a tool where i do not care at all how it works. Just want to do things in preferably as short a time as possible, so i have more time left to read a book.
However i am too curious and still want to know the "how and why", so if i have time left i may even love command lines to find out the how and why. But spending hours on installing a video driver looks rediculous and gives me less time to read a book.
Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there. And next... typing characters on a screen or clicking a mouse is a stupid way of communication. I want to talk to it :)

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 AM CST ----------

:confused: ...only most of the time??? Yep sounds like windows :p

i'm happy with small things

[Dan]

Well, then! You've come to exactly the right place. Nvidia was nothing! Just wait until you meet Pulse Audio, or Package kit. Then you'll not only be talking to your computer ... you'll be using sign language too. <..:p..>

[leigh123linux]

in my opinion not true, i see it as follows....
computers in general are there to make life a bit easier, and delivers a lot of information. So for me as a user they are a tool where i do not care at all how it works. Just want to do things in preferably as short a time as possible, so i have more time left to read a book.
However i am too curious and still want to know the "how and why", so if i have time left i may even love command lines to find out the how and why. But spending hours on installing a video driver looks rediculous and gives me less time to read a book.
Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there. And next... typing characters on a screen or clicking a mouse is a stupid way of communication. I want to talk to it :)

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 AM CST ----------



i'm happy with small things


It should take less than five minutes to install the nvidia driver.

[JK3MP]

Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there.


Nah, we'd be using Macs.



i'm happy with small things

Low expectations?

[Dan]

in my opinion not true, i see it as follows....
computers in general are there to make life a bit easier, and delivers a lot of information. So for me as a user they are a tool where i do not care at all how it works. Just want to do things in preferably as short a time as possible, so i have more time left to read a book.
However i am too curious and still want to know the "how and why", so if i have time left i may even love command lines to find out the how and why. But spending hours on installing a video driver looks rediculous and gives me less time to read a book.
Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there. And next... typing characters on a screen or clicking a mouse is a stupid way of communication. I want to talk to it :)

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 AM CST ----------



i'm happy with small things

It should take less than five minutes to install the nvidia driver.

Might take a wee bit longer for him, Leigh. Looks like he has to sound out the big words. <..:p..>

[hansd]

It should take less than five minutes to install the nvidia driver.

not what i read when i googled on 'installing a nvidia driver for f12', it was one drama after another (yum did not do the job) :confused:

[forkbomb]

computers in general are there to make life a bit easier, and delivers a lot of information. So for me as a user they are a tool where i do not care at all how it works. Just want to do things in preferably as short a time as possible,
Yeah, but that's the thing... Either you're missing my point or I'm failing to make it. GUIs aren't necessarily faster and easier. Ask any GUI designer.

My contention is that command line usage is not necessarily harder and that using a click-monkey GUI is not necessarily faster. Learning a command or two can save an enormous amount of time. Once you learn how to do file management from a terminal, to pick an arbitrary example, it's amazing how much time you can save by moving/copying/finding files from the command line. Once you realize how slow and cumbersome dragging and dropping files is, you'll really miss a good bash prompt once you get to an OS that doesn't have it. And does it require an enormous amount of time investment to figure out how to move/copy/etc files with bash? No.

And really "how things work" isn't necessarily relevant either. I run all kinds of commands from command lines and I have no idea, from a programmatic standpoint, how apps make calls to the kernel. :p

[JK3MP]

It should take less than five minutes to install the nvidia driver.

(Sorry didn't see your post b4 my last one :P ) This IS true, you can't blame the system for other people misinforming you. The only risk in using linux is the fact you don't get "Official Support", you are merely getting info from other users, some very experienced and some not so much. Though even "Official Support" often have no idea what there talking about. Was on phone with ISP Support and they argued with me that a Gigabyte wasn't "that big", and i was like... NO a megabyte isn't that big. Then after like 5 minutes, they were like OH, my bad i was saying the wrong thing, i mean Megabyte. I'm like "duh...".

[hansd]

Might take a wee bit longer for him, Leigh. Looks like he has to sound out the big words. <..:p..>

ohh noo, i love them all as long as they do not take up too much of my spare time :)

[adrianx]

I find that most procedures work for 6/13 months (or longer if you don't want bleeding edge) at a time. I know, there is the occasional breakage after a major update - sometimes kernel updates, but I'm talking about Linux in general, not necessarily Fedora.

What, do people change their hardware once a week or something? We don't in the "jungle", but maybe it is different out there in "civilization". :D

[hansd]

Once you learn how to do file management from a terminal, to pick an arbitrary example, it's amazing how much time you can save by moving/copying/finding files from the command line. Once you realize how slow and cumbersome dragging and dropping files is, you'll really miss a good bash prompt once you get to an OS that doesn't have it. :p

disagree, did both a lot, really a lot, and prefer a gui. But maybe it's the same with food, i love spruitjes, you do not, it's called taste.

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 AM CST ----------

Well, then! You've come to exactly the right place. Nvidia was nothing! Just wait until you meet Pulse Audio, or Package kit. Then you'll not only be talking to your computer ... you'll be using sign language too. <..:p..>
Prehistoric, with my braincap i only need to think :)

[Dan]

... Prehistoric, with my braincap i only need to think :) Hmmm.

Ayup. And therein lies the rub. <..:eek:..>



<..:D..>

[hansd]

Low expectations?

Yes i for one would not be able to write millions lines of code with no bugs in there. So my expectation is low, but understand the problem

---------- Post added at 02:28 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 AM CST ----------

hello all, was fun, the mac guy was right, i was wrong and hopefully the guys working at Fedora on "setup.exe nvidia geforce8500", with or without command line will all go to heaven as a reward. bye :)

[joe.pelayo]

disagree, did both a lot, really a lot, and prefer a gui. But maybe it's the same with food, i love spruitjes, you do not, it's called taste.

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 AM CST ----------


Prehistoric, with my braincap i only need to think :)
For one thing you can not use "*" in the GUI, can you?

Thanks,
Joe.

[Dan]

Yes i for one would not be able to write millions lines of code with no bugs in there. So my expectation is low, but understand the problem

---------- Post added at 02:28 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 AM CST ----------

hello all, was fun, the mac guy was right, i was wrong and hopefully the guys working at Fedora on "setup.exe nvidia geforce8500", with or without command line will all go to heaven as a reward. bye :) Have a Merry Christmas, guy (or day after where you are) and thanks for the Christmas sport.

<..:)..>

[forkbomb]

disagree, did both a lot, really a lot, and prefer a gui. But maybe it's the same with food, i love spruitjes, you do not, it's called taste.

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 AM CST ----------


Prehistoric, with my braincap i only need to think :)

No, it's not taste.

You could time it. If you really think that GUI file management is faster than command line file management, you were doing the latter wrong.

Sorry, but that is what it is.

EDIT:
What I mean to say is that if you prefer to use the GUI for file management (or whatever the case may be), fine. I won't twist your arm. But that's totally different than saying that graphical file managers are just as fast and efficient as command line file management. Cause it just ain't so. Regular expressions (including wildcards) and tab completion alone are sufficient to make CLI file management faster and more efficient (and exacting because of the pickiness of bash). That's not even to say anything about apps like find or grep and the like, or, for example, zsh extended globbing.

[JK3MP]

Perhaps, but alot of people expect Linux to be more, its 1000 of lines of code, has bugs, and absolutely NO support from vendors etc. Making it more of an underdog, yet properly configured competes very well with Windows. The only level that it doesn't, is usability, and even switching from windows to a mac people have this problem cause windows is what they were taught and have used most of there lives.

[marcrblevins]

If you like to use some kinda of setup.exe to install your video card drivers. Could use Autoten, select the 'Nvidia GeForce' option.
http://dnmouse.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105

[JN4OldSchool]

NEXT!!!

....

(nothing like a good Christmas troll. :) )

[bob]

....or chose Ubuntu or Mint or PCLOS for your distro. Cripes, all of those not only recognized and did a Nvidia setup with zero to 1 click, but also had my printer/scanner ready to go after installation and all the other codecs we normally use.

OTOH, they're boring distros. Too easily configured, too perfect. I'd miss my chats with the devs on Bugzilla and filling out all the forms and seeing if I can get back from a black screen and flashing cursor every so often. Yep, that's FUN! :D

[tashirosgt]

I thought it was Apple that did the click-monkeyism implant.

Is it going to be easy to install things in Windows 7? I read that it would only install things that were approved ( "signed"?) by Microsoft. What's the deal on that?

[JN4OldSchool]

I thought it was Apple that did the click-monkeyism implant.

Is it going to be easy to install things in Windows 7? I read that it would only install things that were approved ( "signed"?) by Microsoft. What's the deal on that?

No problems so far, though the only things I have installed are Gimp, e-Sword, AVG, and OO.o. You have to be careful with many of the things that you "hear." Often there is little truth to it, or at best it could be a misunderstanding on the part of the writer.

[jonathonp]

But spending hours on installing a video driver looks rediculous and gives me less time to read a book.
Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there. And next... typing characters on a screen or clicking a mouse is a stupid way of communication. I want to talk to it :)

---------- Post added at 01:45 AM CST ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 AM CST ----------



i'm happy with small things

If u followed u leigh's nvidia (if u use nvidia of course) guide it should not taken hours to install. Follow the guide! After all we are all lucky to have excellent help on this forum and i really appreciate the guides that people write.

Is Microsoft windows really that user friendly? Windows keeps their users in the dark and takes the freedom of information away from the user.

[JN4OldSchool]

Is Microsoft windows really that user friendly? Windows keeps their users in the dark and takes the freedom of information away from the user.

All operating systems I have used are similar in execution. Really, one is not any easier or harder than another, just minor differences that you need to learn.

To a Windows user Linux can be just as dark and unapproachable. Likewise, for someone who understands Windows, the OS can be manipulated almost as thoroughly as Linux. Linux users like to tout "freedom" as an advantage. And, they have a point in the fact that the source code is open. But...Who really understands that source code? :) You can write a program for Windows just as easily as you can for Linux.

[marcrblevins]

in my opinion not true, i see it as follows....
computers in general are there to make life a bit easier, and delivers a lot of information. So for me as a user they are a tool where i do not care at all how it works. Just want to do things in preferably as short a time as possible, so i have more time left to read a book.
However i am too curious and still want to know the "how and why", so if i have time left i may even love command lines to find out the how and why. But spending hours on installing a video driver looks rediculous and gives me less time to read a book.
Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there. And next... typing characters on a screen or clicking a mouse is a stupid way of communication. I want to talk to it :)

Been done and failed by Scotty(Beam me up, Scotty)-Star Trek IV

Scotty picked up a Macintosh's mouse and talked to it. Then he realized he should use the keyboard for the whale's glass wall formula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyage_Home

[SwampKracker]

Think also about this computer age without Bill Gates, horrible, we all might still be staring at a black screen, totally no fun in there.

Not only did Microsoft not invent the GUI, but I am quite certain another company such as Xerox, IBM or NeXT would have taken us out of the darkness of the black screen. We can't give Bill all the credit now, can we?

[CD-RW]

I guess I must be nutty-crunchy too. Maybe that's why I wrote a set of shell scripts to automate a fresh installation of Fedora?? :)

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=232892

I got fed-up sitting at the computer using a GUI program to set things up.

I'd much rather run one shell script and get on with something else, while the installation proceeds without any intervention from myself.

[Wayne]

Sanity is over-rated....

[CD-RW]

Not only did Microsoft not invent the GUI, but I am quite certain another company such as Xerox, IBM or NeXT would have taken us out of the darkness of the black screen. We can't give Bill all the credit now, can we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

[Dan]

Sanity is over-rated.... By a significant margin.

[forkbomb]

No problems so far, though the only things I have installed are Gimp, e-Sword, AVG, and OO.o. You have to be careful with many of the things that you "hear." Often there is little truth to it, or at best it could be a misunderstanding on the part of the writer.

Few problems here, and I've installed my usual battery of a few dozen apps. Only a few instances where I've had to switch over to a compat mode. I've even got Baldur's Gate 1 (Win95 era game) running.

[PatMcLJr]

yep, I'm nuts. No question about it.

Linux seems to work well for me, so I use it. If Windows works for you, then use Windows. It's OK.

Pat Jr.

[Magickman]

Ah, Lady Fedora...she is addictive, my friend. She will draw you away from the dreaded corporate swine Microsoft. I will admit it freely, I am a Fedora addict, and there is no cure for that.

[hannzt]

A Mac? A Mac? A Mac? Yes, I want closed code AND closed hardware that carries a premium price for the cachet. Gimmee, gimmee.

You want easy nVidia, use Pardus. Install module, point click, restart X, use. Same thing ATI. All complements of a freedom-loving beneficent government. Linux that works - by government mandate. And we ain't talking that nouveau stuff either.

A "real" man's distro boots default init3 - multiuser NON-GUI Linux. When asked about a GUI, the man answered, "you mean as in duck"?

[JN4OldSchool]

Be careful with Pardus! The Turkish government is out to steal your secrets! ;)

:p

[dmyersturnbull]

...why is it so complicated to copy what WIndows does when software/drivers needed to be installed (setup.exe). The way it is now the Fedora guys, sorry to say, are living in the dark ages. I would feel ashamed to deliver something like this.

Good God. Copy the Windoze way? I hope not. I installed Fedora 12 three days ago. Know what worked out-of-the-box? Everything. Last time I installed Windows, I noticed a lack of drivers: no sound, no webcam, no wireless, no ethernet, nothing—but a display stuck on 640x480. I spent an hour downloading and installing drivers (from a borrowed computer!—no ethernet), an hour disabling useless garbage, a full day reinstalling programs I use, and two hours copying files from my backup drive. After I reinstall Fedora, my files remain in /home. I used to think that updating couldn't be simpler than visiting the program's website, downloading and running the installer, and following the steps. Per program. You know what I do now?

yum update

That's it.


I already had a bad feeling when 15 years ago, working on Unix when an error occurred, i got the message "oops an error has occured"

That's Unix, not Linux. What kind of error message would you like? Seen this lately?
http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bsod.jpg
See those hexadecimal numbers at the top? Know what they are? Memory addresses. They're as useless to M$ developers as they are to you. And do you know what a 0E exception is? Neither do I. I would prefer a simple "oops" followed by a restart.

I don't think I'm living in the dark ages. And I may be… somewhat lacking in sanity :rolleyes:, but choosing Linux is one of my more sane and logical decisions.

[JN4OldSchool]

Good God. Copy the Windoze way? I hope not. I installed Fedora 12 three days ago. Know what worked out-of-the-box? Everything. Last time I installed Windows, I noticed a lack of drivers: no sound, no webcam, no wireless, no ethernet, nothing—but a display stuck on 640x480. I spent an hour downloading and installing drivers (from a borrowed computer!—no ethernet), an hour disabling useless garbage, a full day reinstalling programs I use, and two hours copying files from my backup drive. After I reinstall Fedora, my files remain in /home. I used to think that updating couldn't be simpler than visiting the program's website, downloading and running the installer, and following the steps. Per program. You know what I do now?

yum update

That's it.


That's Unix, not Linux. What kind of error message would you like? Seen this lately?
http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bsod.jpg
See those hexadecimal numbers at the top? Know what they are? Memory addresses. They're as useless to M$ developers as they are to you. And do you know what a 0E exception is? Neither do I. I would prefer a simple "oops" followed by a restart.

I don't think I'm living in the dark ages. And I may be… somewhat lacking in sanity :rolleyes:, but choosing Linux is one of my more sane and logical decisions.

So THAT'S the famous BSOD? Wow! I was wondering if I would ever get to see one!

:p

[Demz]

Good God. Copy the Windoze way? I hope not. I installed Fedora 12 three days ago. Know what worked out-of-the-box? Everything. Last time I installed Windows, I noticed a lack of drivers: no sound, no webcam, no wireless, no ethernet, nothing—but a display stuck on 640x480. I spent an hour downloading and installing drivers (from a borrowed computer!—no ethernet), an hour disabling useless garbage, a full day reinstalling programs I use, and two hours copying files from my backup drive. After I reinstall Fedora, my files remain in /home. I used to think that updating couldn't be simpler than visiting the program's website, downloading and running the installer, and following the steps. Per program. You know what I do now?

yum update

That's it.


That's Unix, not Linux. What kind of error message would you like? Seen this lately?
http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bsod.jpg
See those hexadecimal numbers at the top? Know what they are? Memory addresses. They're as useless to M$ developers as they are to you. And do you know what a 0E exception is? Neither do I. I would prefer a simple "oops" followed by a restart.

I don't think I'm living in the dark ages. And I may be… somewhat lacking in sanity :rolleyes:, but choosing Linux is one of my more sane and logical decisions.

im glad you got sound, not a lot can get sound with this "beloved PulseAudio " funny thing is, im using windows7 an have NOT had any problems with it, Driver wise or anything else. it just works. if i reemmber i only had to install 2 Drivers for 2 bits of hardware in windows7, Mouse & keyboard driver an Soundcard driver. apart from that everything else worked , aww yeah i have no problems with NetworkManager in windows either :rolleyes:

[JN4OldSchool]

Only driver I had to install on this laptop was the webcam. Everything, including wireless, either worked right out of the box or did upon the first update.

[PatMcLJr]

[QUOTE=dmyersturnbull;1311443]

yum update



and better yet, if you're brave,


yum -y update



Pat Jr.

[Demz]

Only driver I had to install on this laptop was the webcam. Everything, including wireless, either worked right out of the box or did upon the first update.

win7 has been so easy, things just work an i save myself from getting the vacuum cleaner out on a daily basis from pulling my hair out :D


one day i'll go back to using Linux on a more permanent note. i think i'll sit back an watch how Gnome3 goes before i make a radical DE or window Manager switch

[JN4OldSchool]

The only thing I dislike so far is the absence of the classic menu. However, I am getting used to it now.

[Wayne]

win7 has been so easy, things just work an i save myself from getting the vacuum cleaner out on a daily basis from pulling my hair out :D


one day i'll go back to using Linux on a more permanent note. i think i'll sit back an watch how Gnome3 goes before i make a radical DE or window Manager switch

No comment on windows, but Gnome 3 may be the version that sends me off to KDE land, unless you can revert to the "classic" look of Gnome 2....

[jonathonp]

Basic commands such as the copy command

[jonathon@blackdog ~]$ cp /home/jonathon/Pictures/johhny.jpg /media/Data


actually teach the user valuable knowledge. You learn about directory structure (FHS) and syntax as well demystifying a terminal with text on it and most importantly it gives the user basic insight into to what is happening under the GUI when you copy a file in a desktop environment.

Anybody can learn this stuff if given the chance and the user can easily acquire basic knowledge if the operating system is set out that way.

An operating system should teach its users USEFUL knowledge that is simple logical and practical at the most basic level.

Microsoft Windows DUMBS people down and starts them off with a severe handicap. The whole desktop experience as prescribed by Microsoft is set-up to make the Microsoft Windows Operating System the only world in which we live. At a fundamental level it mystifies the world of Information Technology and makes Information Technology Experts into GODS that the user must serve.

No thanks. I believe in freedom to think. I need to be my own master!!

Think about it? How does right clicking on a folder in windows teach you anything about computers? It simply keeps you stupid and has made the whole learning experience a waste of time. It's much better to learn things in a logical manner from the beginning. I wasted years of my life clicking in a desktop environment and as a result from this experience, i gained no insight into computers at all. That was a real disappointment and to be frank, it was a waste of my precious time.

[scottro]

Microsoft Windows DUMBS people down and starts them off with a severe handicap. The whole desktop experience as prescribed my Microsoft is set-up to make the Microsoft Windows Operating System the only world in which we live. At a fundamental level it mystifies the world of Information Technology and makes Information Technology Experts into GODS that the user must serve.

.

And that's different than Fedora?

[JN4OldSchool]

To be frank myself, what you describe about Windows sounds like the typical Linux experience these days also. :)

Listen, I do agree with what you are saying, and that is what attracted me to Linux ten years ago. I am the type of person who did want to know what was going on behind the GUI. But let's not kid ourselves here, the average Gnome or KDE user knows little more than the average Windows user. If you want to truly dig under the hood then you can learn in ANY OS. But most people, even computer geeks, are just not interested in this. They want to have full command of the GUI.

edit: Beat me to it Scott. :)

[ghostdawg]

I've been using the command line since when I was an acorn...now I'm a complete nut!!! :)

[forkbomb]

The only thing I dislike so far is the absence of the classic menu. However, I am getting used to it now.
Oh, phooey. :p

Personally, I never liked menus. Never liked the XP menu, the KDE menus, the GNOME menu, Vista's menu, etc. The only menu I ever really liked was the Fluxbox style "floating menu." (And I'm now realizing if you type the word "menu" enough you start to think you're spelling it wrong.)

One thing I got used to on GNOME was Alt-F2. It's more expeditious to just hammer on Alt-F2, put in the app you need up, and go, rather than open a menu and go fishing for awhile.

So much so that I've installed Launchy on my Win7 install and bound it to Alt-F2. Think I maybe click the Windows button (nee Start button) once a day.

[dmyersturnbull]

im glad you got sound, not a lot can get sound with this "beloved PulseAudio " funny thing is, im using windows7 an have NOT had any problems with it, Driver wise or anything else. it just works. if i reemmber i only had to install 2 Drivers for 2 bits of hardware in windows7, Mouse & keyboard driver an Soundcard driver. apart from that everything else worked , aww yeah i have no problems with NetworkManager in windows either :rolleyes:

Yeah, I've heard good things about Windows 7. My experiences are limited to Windows 3.0, 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP, and Vista. Certainly with my recent purchases, when the hardware worked out-of-the-box in Windows, it was because the manufacturer installed the drivers pre-shipment. When I would have to reinstall Windows, I'd have to install (and locate! :eek:) my driver disks. With any Linux distro, the hardware works when I install it (usually). I also don't have to spend time hunting down program updates. Of course it does depend on the hardware—and right now, my video card's memory isn't being used :(.


So THAT'S the famous BSOD? Wow! I was wondering if I would ever get to see one!

Yeah right. :rolleyes:

[forkbomb]

Yeah right. :rolleyes:In all honesty, it's been a long time since I saw a BSOD. Been even longer since I saw a BSOD that wasn't related to me messing with drivers (or that time half the caps on my video card popped at once).

Been even longer since I've seen a Linux kernel panic, though.

[JN4OldSchool]

I believe I had one or two BSODs back in my XP pro days, which was the first couple years of this decade. But since I went back to Windows with Vista Ultimate, and now 7 Ultimate, I have not had a single crash. Likewise, I have never crashed Linux other than after a bum update.

I think Greg was referring to an OEM boxed version of Windows 7. I know I was. I bought it through my school and put it on an HP laptop. As I say, the only driver I had to hunt down was the webcam.

[jonathonp]

And that's different than Fedora?

I think open source is more community orientated in the sense that people are less inclined to tell you what to do. Big Brother is not telling you what you should or shouldn't do with the operating system. Sure there are people in the Linux world too that like to power trip others with less knowledge than themselves but that is the world at large. At least with the Linux community there are some very helpful people around without the unnecessary ego. I have noticed though that some people do not respond to help when it is freely given to them for what ever reason. Human nature is not pretty on the whole but at least the free software idea provides a structure in which to build a community and allow information to flow freely.

[dwightpaige79]

It should take less than five minutes to install the nvidia driver.

Edit: Forgot to state that I AM FREAKIN NUTS. And I CAN document that.

Funny how sometimes perception can differ so markedly from reality...:confused:

Yeah I'm confused. As a long time openSUSE and Mandriva user [who started linux with FC 3] I've only been using F 12 for a couple of weeks. I believe leigh123 wrote the the how to I used to install nvidia driver. It consisted of 4 steps [if I remember correctly] one of which was reboot. All I *really* needed to know was my password for su and how to copy and paste. Oh, I needed to know which driver to install also. It took me longer to type this post than to install nvidia driver.

A monkey could install nvidia driver in MY Fedora 12 install. :D

[fvangeirt]

Are you all nuts? It took me longer to read this thread (or scan the thread - I stopped reading everything in detail) than to install an nvidia driver on my fedora system.

And strangely, on the 5 pages, I did not find any solutions, only discussions about linux and windows (people, they are all software made by humans... do I need to say more?).

And discussions about gui or terminal... just use what fits for you at the right time - I use command line even in windows, e.g. 'start - run - cmd - ipconfig' works faster than searching through the menu. And I do linux server administration in Gnome as much as possible. For me, a command line is just an application (terminal) as any other. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages... I try to find and use the best of all worlds...

But anyway, nvidia, the way I do it... the rpmfusion repository (used to be livna)...

http://rpmfusion.org/

Install the 2 rpmfusion rpm's (free & nonfree) and off you go... this is already working for me as off Fedora 9.

I recently upgraded my F11 to F12 and even the rpmfusion files were updated... after the upgrade from DVD I did a 'yum update' and my whole system was up to date (including the nvidia driver).

[Demz]

No comment on windows, but Gnome 3 may be the version that sends me off to KDE land, unless you can revert to the "classic" look of Gnome 2....

KDE is shaping up pretty nice, unless you fancy using XFCE

[dwightpaige79]

Are you all nuts? It took me longer to read this thread (or scan the thread - I stopped reading everything in detail) than to install an nvidia driver on my fedora system.

And strangely, on the 5 pages, I did not find any solutions, only discussions about linux and windows (people, they are all software made by humans... do I need to say more?).

And discussions about gui or terminal... just use what fits for you at the right time - I use command line even in windows, e.g. 'start - run - cmd - ipconfig' works faster than searching through the menu. And I do linux server administration in Gnome as much as possible. For me, a command line is just an application (terminal) as any other. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages... I try to find and use the best of all worlds...

But anyway, nvidia, the way I do it... the rpmfusion repository (used to be livna)...

http://rpmfusion.org/

Install the 2 rpmfusion rpm's (free & nonfree) and off you go... this is already working for me as off Fedora 9.

I recently upgraded my F11 to F12 and even the rpmfusion files were updated... after the upgrade from DVD I did a 'yum update' and my whole system was up to date (including the nvidia driver).

Obviously we are all nuts. We have perpetuated a thread that has taken every one of us more time than simply installing what ever ding dong video driver one wishes to use... Plus as Steve Balmer stated we are communists as well. IMOH it's all part of the New World Order. The Drakos are on the march. I'm gonna go make me an AFDB right now.:eek:

[dwightpaige79]

Got this from

http://www.nolug.org/

[10sdassarma]

lol dwightpaige79

[SpuriousQ]

Yup, the troll is back and here. Indeed, Linux is great for those who love to play tweaking their tools. For those who use the tools to build something else, any stable and easy to use OS or distro is great. For easy I mean the GUI (who wants to learn a bunch of commands -more than 2 is a bunch, anyway?). And for stable I refer to something as stable as Windows XP, or Windows 7 -although I have two machines working with Vista, with no troubles at all- or Mac, with no teaking and testing and forum searching and google searching for the causes of the Fedora Blackscreen (I've heard that it happens in UBUNTU too) much more worst than the W98 blue screen (at least it shows letters). I wanted to show the image of the Fedora BlackScreen but... alas... PrtSc is not working... hey... nothing works!...

[brebs]

commands of e.g. 3 lines long
Such complexity is always going to be present. The only question is whether it is in-your-face, or hidden in a script.

For example, non-freetard distros like Gentoo and Lunar have installers for nvidia drivers, so you install them the exact same way as the tens of thousands of other packages available.

Fedora, unfortunately, has its head SO far up its own ass, that it thinks Nouveau is a viable alternative.

[forkbomb]

3 lines is what passes as "complexity" these days?

I'll be...

[stevea]

This will probably get me a lot of hatemail:) but....
I am a long time not experienced fedora user with, "if it runs donot touch"
When i wanted to install a nvidia driver in F12 i googled of course and you donot want to know what was advised to get this done and what problems needed to be solved on the road. E.g. commands of e.g. 3 lines long as one of the installation steps.

OK Precious - here is the lecture.

Fedora only include Free and open source (FOSS) in their repos. Well the FSF doesn't even think Fedora is clean enough since there are some binary blobs and semi-open wifi driver, but it's about as unencumbered by potential legal liabilities as any distro can be. Now the boneheads at Nvidia and ATI have decided that they aren't going to support the development of any FOSS drivers. At times in the past they've been helpful, but for the most part that don't care much about Linux. There is a market there so they have Linux drivers , but they often don't keep up w/ Linux changes. So you have two options when it comes to getting good Vid performance on Linux - A/ pick a distro that incorporates proprietary drivers (and that will NEVER be Fedora) or B/ install the proprietary drivers into Fedora and that takes a little work (sometimes a very little).

I have not kept up in the nvidia issue but sometimes it's as easy as adding rpmfusion to your yum repo list and using yum or yumex to install the driver. Lookee here
http://download1.rpmfusion.org/nonfree/fedora/releases/13/Everything/x86_64/os/repoview/index.html
Nvidia has their own scripted install download
http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index5.aspx?lang=en-us


Now the question.... why is it so complicated to copy what WIndows does when software/drivers needed to be installed (setup.exe). The way it is now the Fedora guys, sorry to say, are living in the dark ages. I would feel ashamed to deliver something like this. I already had a bad feeling when 15 years ago, working on Unix when an error occurred, i got the message "oops an error has occured"

Ahem - you are off in the weeds. The product VENDOR, such as Nvidia writes the drivers and install methods for Windoze. They write the setup.exe and so on b/c Win is 93% of their market. They don't do it for Linux. b/c we are under 2% of their market (maybe 6-7% if you count Apple as a *nix).

So your complaint "why don't we do it like Microsoft" involves Linux becoming so huge and the installers and driver models becoming so stable and common across all Linuxi that the vendor (Nvidia) will do all the work for us. Not likely.

The other headache is that these proprietary drivers taint the kernel which means you'd better get a lawyer involved before you sell systems with that software config. Also if you try to report a bug on kernel.org no one will listen to you when it happens in a tainted kernel. You are working with an orphan product at that point - OK for end users, unacceptable anywhere else.

In brief - complain to Nvidia - they are the problem.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM CDT ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM CDT ----------

Oh uh "Yes" to the OP title question.

[SpuriousQ]

three lines is already too much... As in Newton's Laws, more than two is too much...

[brebs]

3 lines is what passes as "complexity" these days?
1 line is enough, to illustrate how stupid BASH is, and how easy it is to write incorrect code:
[ -n $foo ] && [ -z $foo ] && echo "huh?"
That echo should be logically impossible, right? Right? WRONG! :eek:

This is just a classic example that I pulled out of my, er, Internets.

OK for end users
Yeah, that's what we are. And Fedora just want to make our life difficult, which is ridiculous.

Let me show you have sane-in-comparison-with-Fedora non-freetard distros handle it: Arch (http://repos.archlinux.org/wsvn/packages/nvidia/trunk/PKGBUILD), Gentoo (http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers/nvidia-drivers-195.36.24.ebuild), Lunar (http://foo-projects.org/git/?p=lunar/moonbase.git;a=blob;f=x11/NVIDIA/BUILD).

[SpuriousQ]

... and of course, here we are, the neurotic with the OCD who love to play and complain...:confused:

[MorphingDragon]

In my case I am currently working with the combination BASH + FORTRAN to perform some programming and data analysis and I find it unbeatable (of course, there might be easier options, but give me a break!).

You mean like not using FORTRAN? :p

[beaker_]

omg, do they still teach Fortran? gks and 77 was fun but really, still?

[MorphingDragon]

omg, do they still teach Fortran? gks and 77 was fun but really, still?

Fortran is considered the best for engineering purposes.

[stevea]

1 line is enough, to illustrate how stupid BASH is, and how easy it is to write incorrect code:
[ -n $foo ] && [ -z $foo ] && echo "huh?"
That echo should be logically impossible, right? Right? WRONG! :eek:

The language isn't "stupid" b/c you failed to understand it's semantics. -n and -z are string operators and that $foo is not a string after the bash substitution. What does "[ -n ]" evaluate to ? Try this C language equivalent ...
int i;
i = "two plus two";
if(i != 4) printf("huh?\n");
If you *assume* you understand the semantics without studying the language - shame on you.


Yeah, that's what we are. And Fedora just want to make our life difficult, which is ridiculous

Some of us feel that the fact that all the software is free is an extremely important feature. I prefer to avoid packages like VMWare and VirtualBox simply b/c the vendors are likely to pull the rug out from under the user at any time. I feel somewhat the same about proprietary drivers, tho' it's more palatable than proprietary apps.

[brebs]

Try this C language equivalent
You're proving *my* point, because that C is obviously wrong at a second's glance from a non-expert in C, and it wouldn't even compile (trying to assign a string to an integer variable) :p

prefer to avoid packages like VMWare and VirtualBox
That's perfectly fine. Other people will need/want such packages, so, what I'm saying is stupid about Fedora is that they don't include installation scripts which download and install such packages.

Fedora can pass the buck and say "it's not our responsibility or job," but all they're doing is alienating a part of their actual and potential userbase.

[jpollard]

It's kind of hard to record what you are doing in a GUI...

It makes hard to know "how did that work again?"

GUIs are way overrated. Give me a clear configuration file, and the documentation
and I can make any kind of GUI I want, but give me a GUI... and it becomes very
difficult to figure out how it all works.

[forkbomb]

That's perfectly fine. Other people will need/want such packages, so, what I'm saying is stupid about Fedora is that they don't include installation scripts which download and install such packages.

Ask Fedora to go out of its way to provide installation scripts that specifically violate the types of software it has specifically avoided since the project's inception? Why? Because if they don't change the policy they've stood by for like... forever, you might feel butthurt and continue ranting on some forum rather than shooting an email to the devs?

All I really ask is that no OS - whatever that OS may be - throw up barriers to customization. And Fedora passes muster - nothing is preventing me from copying and pasting a few lines into a terminal to add in rpmfusion. Nothing's strictly stopping me from installing VMware or other 3rd party software.

It's extremely silly to ask the FP - which is already providing to you a free beer distribution - to assign real people to invest real volunteer time, to provide installation scripts for the type of software that its own policies explicitly forbid.

Fedora can pass the buck and say "it's not our responsibility or job," but all they're doing is alienating a part of their actual and potential userbase.Uhh... but it's not their responsibility or their job. You can wave that off if you want, but the Fedora policy on "forbidden items" isn't really news to anybody.

That point would have some relevance if you could point to somewhere where the Fedora Project specifically states that its primary purpose is to grab market share or something. It's just not. The purpose of Fedora isn't to be the Windows-killer or the Ubuntu-killer or become the biggest piece of pie on some fuzzy guesstimation of market share.


Maybe should fill out the refund request you received with the product.

[robert-e]

Well, Tom;
I agree with you about "FP...assign real people to invest...."; true, since it is a big error to "require of .. volunteers". OTOH, I have noted that Fedora provided the script to reinstat the "control-alt-backspace" to restart X, when upstream deprecated it. So, in some instances they do cater to the users. However, that said, FP (and perhaps gnome) has so integrated pulseaudio into the distro that it is becoming quite difficult to remove it (at least for me), and even more so, difficult to KEEP it from reinstalling. Now the response could be "why don't you write your own OS?"; but that is just as redicules as "apply for a refund". Incidently, I see that phrase often in linux forums, when one offers a critical appraisal of a feature/bug in the distro. One uses the OS as a mutual assist in helping the distro get better...ie I use it, find bugs/unusabilities, and thus I pay for my usage of the OS. To chide someone for offering helpful criticism is doing a disfavour to the project. Furthermore, to say that the "devs are not here, so quite whining, etc" is also not helpful. Perhaps it is not as direct, but it is true that at least some of the devs do poke their heads into these forums from time to time.

I guess what I do not like to see on these fourms, is for someone to ridicule a poster, be they a newby or a seasoned vet. Yes, point out a perceived wrong advice, but not a personal affront.

I am getting off topic, so I would make a final point: Fedora seems to be moving towards a Windows-like OS. Evidence, you ask?; well, Ctrl-Alt-Blsp being default, PackageKit user-updateing, gnome and its windows type registry - no config files to edit here, nmmanager, not to mention the many unneeded dependancies that come along with package installation (digicam/marble). I dabbled in FC6, and used F7 and onwards, and I find that as my skills and understandings increase, the ability to form fedora into my liking becomes more difficult.

Regards,
Bob

[brebs]

you might feel butthurt and continue ranting on some forum
Not quite. I'll simply continue using another distro, self-customized. I used Fedora before, and I know it would greatly help your argument if I had contributed nothing back to Fedora, but that's not true. I used to host my own server with Fedora packages. And helped lots of people on the forums. You might like to check out my post history.

I've contributed back to Gentoo, Arch, Fedora, Lunar. Basically every distro I've used, since I've gained enough knowledge to be useful. Creating and maintaining new packages, etc.

So, who gains and who loses by Fedora's blinkered approach? Fedora loses, because people like me are perfectly capable of writing the scripts that I mentioned are ridiculously missing in Fedora. But I'll be damned if I spend my time writing them, only to have them rejected, due to Fedora's stupid blinkered policy.

It's much less irritating for me to just use another distro. So that's what I do. I'm trying to give you some advice here, guys, on how you can get talented people working for free on your distro, improving it. That's supposed to be a good thing, isn't it?

Maybe should fill out the refund request you received with the product.
I knew it was inevitable that the freetard argument would be used, especially in Fedora. Wait for the stupid admins to close this thread...

[Hlingler]

Wait for the stupid admins to close this thread...I have to wonder exactly what is going through someone's mind when they post things like this. It certainly appears to be a blatant attempt to get the thread closed, in a self-fullfilling way, with an insult. In this case, however, I'm going to leave the thread open, and trust that anyone with the least amount of objectivity and perception will be able to identify the offending party.

IMHO, none of the Staff here have ever claimed (or implied) to be perfect (unlike some members) - we simply try to moderate the discussions within the established rules and guidelines, for the maximum benefit of the membership, to the best of our ability (and according to our best interpretations, not yours). And, for the most part, without using the word "stupid".

V

P.S. I'm not insulted - I'm disappointed.

[brebs]

I have to wonder exactly what is going through someone's mind when they post things like this
Frustration.

I know with 99% certainty where this is going, yet I'm trying to help anyway.

I use the word "stupid" because I'm a computer programmer, not a politician, and I detest weasel words.

[forkbomb]

Now the response could be "why don't you write your own OS?"; but that is just as redicules as "apply for a refund".Considering how many darn distros there are, I don't consider "apply for a refund" to be ridiculous at all. Look how many regular members around here either completely left because of other Fedora Project decisions (the stuff unrelated to the constant *****ing about "naughty" software not being included), or still post here but don't really use Fedora regularly or use it only as a curiosity.

Then again, voting with one's feet doesn't really accomplish anything either. I still see absolutely no reason to believe the Fedora Project's conduct is at all guided by a desire to gain users, so leaving doesn't really send a message. (How would they know you left anyway?).

Furthermore, to say that the "devs are not here, so quite whining, etc" is also not helpful.
But it's true. The devs ain't here. Why bother? I don't know how else to rephrase it. No, it's not "helpful" in the sense that it doesn't "solve" anything. But whining in an inappropriate venue isn't helpful either, even if the whining is warranted and on-point.

Chiding other members who point out the obvious - that the devs ain't here - isn't really "helpful" either.

It's much less irritating for me to just use another distro. So that's what I do. I'm trying to give you some advice here, guys, on how you can get talented people working for free on your distro, improving it. That's supposed to be a good thing, isn't it?
Your distro? Who's "you?" The devs ain't here, for Christ's sake. You're not doing anything by offering criticism - constructive or otherwise - on a venue that as far as everybody around here can tell, isn't monitored by the devs. Not to mention it just seems so hollow considering that Fedora's stated goal is (and as far as I know always was) stated in such a fashion that these sorts of complaints (re: proprietary and patent-encumbered software) were inevitable.

What's the point? Catharsis?


I knew it was inevitable that the freetard argument would be used, especially in Fedora. Wait for the stupid admins to close this thread...
Well, setting aside the inanity of lame puns like "freetard," I understand the impetus behind Fedora's "freetard" argument if for nothing other than legal liability CYA (IP law in the United States alone is frigging nuts). That said, I don't really have a problem with "non-freetard" distributions either. I'm not a FOSS zealot by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that you're complaining about problems that are the natural outgrowth of how the Fedora Project was set up.

It just seems so darn pointless to continue making those cuts on a users-talking-to-users forum, especially when I'm sure the Fedora devs are well aware of the belly-aching and have been since they made the darn policy versions ago.

It certainly appears to be a blatant attempt to get the thread closed, in a self-fullfilling way, with an insult.
Setting up a Parthian shot? Who knows.

[robert-e]

A while ago, a couple of forum members seemed bent on getting numerous threads closed, despite the fact that the topics were reasonable and of interest. I noted that those posters were soon absent from the forums, and wondered how that had taken place? I might add that the treads did remain open and viable. I would not like to see that happen here, if it could be at all avoided.

I would say this: I come to these forums to learn, and a behavior that limits my learning has very little sympathy from me.

Please be polite.

Regards,
Bob

[Dan]

Thread closure is usually a last resort deal. We don't like to slam the lid on them. However, bad behavior won't be tolerated.

This one doesn't merit closure yet. Yes, the exchange has been a bit frank, and the opinions are obviously strong, but even though opposing views may clash, as long as it stays civil, like Vince, I'm content to pull up a chair and grab a bag of popcorn.

Although, I do admit, the running battle I'm having with PITA-Patches right now over possession and control of my mouse (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/picture.php?albumid=96&pictureid=698), seems like it's making more sense than this -- and most likely stands a better chance of a positive outcome

...

for the kitten, anyway. <..:rolleyes:..>

[jpollard]

Did you even look at the Fusion repositories?

There is a set that holds unencumbered (by either patent or copyright restrictions)
and a set that has encumbered (again by either patent or copyright restrictions).

The problem for fedora in general is that it cannot afford a a messy copyright
or patent lawsuit. And that is entirely possible with the nonfree repositories.

[MorphingDragon]

Maybe he should try a nice infinite loop with this code:
void *q;
printf("%s",q);

:D

[smr54]

Hrrm, while I usually agree with Tom, in this case, I don't.

I've always considered the If you don't like it, ask for a refund, the Write your own O/S, and The developers aren't here, to more or less be a way of saying, Yes, this is pretty bad, it's not meant for real use. Shucks, one of the developers has said that, though not in so many words. (Mr. Hughes, in reaction to the request that the default of allowing any user to upgrade a signed package be changed, suggested that if using Fedora in any sort of work environment, one use something else.)

Personally, I think the developers *should* spend time here, to see what the people who actually USE the stuff the develop, think. Unfortunately, only a couple spend time--and I see them, fighting for we, the users, on the various bug reports that are ignored, or marked as won't be fixed.

I use CentOS and Fedora because I need it for my job, and the majority of positions open want RH (and even Fedora) experience. I have a nostalgic fondness for RH, because it's one of the first systems I used, way back in the 90's, and was the first where I actually got Japanese input working---back then, it was quite a hassle, nowadays, it's probably easier than it is with Windows.

But, anyway, mentioning the developers aren't here, you should file a bug report, is often wasting the person's time, as far too many bug reports, or the fact that you dislike the way Fedora does things, will just be ignored. I like the fact we have a ranting forum. I feel it's fine to rant, as long as you don't take yourself too seriously. I'd rather phrase it, the developers aren't here, the majority don't really care what you think, so, if you have time, file a bug report, but don't have high expectations.

(This is when talking about the various poor decisions Fedora makes, as opposed to the real bugs, that might be handled. Also, since it seems that now many packages are independently maintained, your mileage can vary--for example, if I find a bug with ibus, the maintainers are quite responsive.)

But the Write your own, and Ask for a refund....well, I think that's just saying, Yeah, it's a crummy system, we know that. It's like saying, well, if you want something that's actually useful, rather than a toy for hobbyists with lots of free time, you're better off using something else.

[MorphingDragon]

Hrrm, while I usually agree with Tom, in this case, I don't.

I've always considered the If you don't like it, ask for a refund, the Write your own O/S, and The developers aren't here, to more or less be a way of saying, Yes, this is pretty bad, it's not meant for real use. Shucks, one of the developers has said that, though not in so many words. (Mr. Hughes, in reaction to the request that the default of allowing any user to upgrade a signed package be changed, suggested that if using Fedora in any sort of work environment, one use something else.)

Personally, I think the developers *should* spend time here, to see what the people who actually USE the stuff the develop, think. Unfortunately, only a couple spend time--and I see them, fighting for we, the users, on the various bug reports that are ignored, or marked as won't be fixed.

I use CentOS and Fedora because I need it for my job, and the majority of positions open want RH (and even Fedora) experience. I have a nostalgic fondness for RH, because it's one of the first systems I used, way back in the 90's, and was the first where I actually got Japanese input working---back then, it was quite a hassle, nowadays, it's probably easier than it is with Windows.

But, anyway, mentioning the developers aren't here, you should file a bug report, is often wasting the person's time, as far too many bug reports, or the fact that you dislike the way Fedora does things, will just be ignored. I like the fact we have a ranting forum. I feel it's fine to rant, as long as you don't take yourself too seriously. I'd rather phrase it, the developers aren't here, the majority don't really care what you think, so, if you have time, file a bug report, but don't have high expectations.

(This is when talking about the various poor decisions Fedora makes, as opposed to the real bugs, that might be handled. Also, since it seems that now many packages are independently maintained, your mileage can vary--for example, if I find a bug with ibus, the maintainers are quite responsive.)

But the Write your own, and Ask for a refund....well, I think that's just saying, Yeah, it's a crummy system, we know that. It's like saying, well, if you want something that's actually useful, rather than a toy for hobbyists with lots of free time, you're better off using something else.

The really funny thing about what you just said, is that Fedora gives birth to RHEL and its clones.

[cocolo]

Guys in some way hansd is right, they are talking about the way that microsoft are blind the most user. The 70% of user don't care how work, what is, how can fix or even where a can found help? That is what make Linux(and all licences) different but from that is what Linux need start to digg to catch more user.

[MorphingDragon]

Guys in some way hansd is right, they are talking about the way that microsoft are blind the most user. The 70% of user don't care how work, what is, how can fix or even where a can found help? That is what make Linux(and all licences) different but from that is what Linux need start to digg to catch more user.

Umm, the operating system you're using was spawned out of pure hate of users. I doubt Microsoft would've even got rid of Vista if people didn't complain.

[SwampKracker]

I doubt Microsoft would've even got rid of Vista if people didn't complain.

Vista never left. It is just disguised as Windows 7. What Microsoft did do was rush Vista out the door prematurely. Given more time, Vista (aka Windows 6.0) would have been released closer to what Windows 7 (aka Windows 6.1) is today.

[MorphingDragon]

Vista never left. It is just disguised as Windows 7. What Microsoft did do was rush Vista out the door prematurely. Given more time, Vista (aka Windows 6.0) would have been released closer to what Windows 7 (aka Windows 6.1) is today.

Dude, Vista most definitely wasn't rushed. 9 Years is a long time. (Vista started development in March 2001)

[SwampKracker]

It was rushed to market. Microsoft kept postponing the release date due to technical issues. Features were left out for future service packs or version upgrades.

You helped confirm what Microsoft was getting heat for - Vista was in development WAY TOO long. Hence, the rush to market before Vista was ready.

[forkbomb]

@smr54
Actually we probably don't really disagree that much. It's probably that I'm cranky lately and not expressing myself. :rolleyes:

Anyway, what I'm saying is that it's silly to expect to effect a change by complaining here, even if it would be nice if it were that place. It's a matter of reasonable expectations given the past behavior of the devs. Now, would it be bold to demand the Fedora devs monitor a third-party forum of users with no official affiliation? Probably. Especially considering the S:N ratio around here on occasion. I mean, the majority of questions around here are the same old (often rather noobish -- not that that's bad) questions.

It probably would be nice if this were a place (or some forum) to easily offer feedback. From my chair, ungrateful as it may sound, the devs show little to no interest in this place, and as far as I can tell never have really showed much (overt) interest in the rank and file of desktop users and hobbyists. At best, the bug tracker is off-putting to a lot of people who might have valid input but don't know how to use it (things like Ubuntu's Brainstorm site come to mind as a contrast), and the developers seem to be unapproachable partly for that reason.

But, even if it would be nice if the devs monitored this place, they don't at the moment.

Personally, I think the developers *should* spend time here, to see what the people who actually USE the stuff the develop, think. Unfortunately, only a couple spend time--and I see them, fighting for we, the users, on the various bug reports that are ignored, or marked as won't be fixed.
Definitely agree -- if not here then somewhere else. I think it's kind of a shame that there's such a huge disconnect.

But the Write your own, and Ask for a refund....well, I think that's just saying, Yeah, it's a crummy system, we know that. It's like saying, well, if you want something that's actually useful, rather than a toy for hobbyists with lots of free time, you're better off using something else.Well, maybe it is a crummy system. :p

Maybe I'm a cynic with a low opinion of almost everything, but if I came onto a "third-party" forum of users and started complaining about a distribution's policies (when those policies have been in place for like... forever), I'd fully expect to be given the rhetorical "what did you pay for it?"

There's a pretty thick line between complaining about something that's a "problem" because of a distribution's long-standing policies (codecs, third-party proprietary software, etc), and offering constructive criticism.

[smr54]

You're right, we probably don't disagree that much. (Also cranky here) :D

I believe you've used Arch and FreeBSD, so you're familiar with O/S's that have more *mutual* respect twixt developer and user.

As you say, many of the questions here are from newcomers, making the same errors, and also as you say, it's not a bad thing.

Argh, too sleepy to be coherent....